buzzard302
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:46 pm

WIederling wrote:
Some reports coming in that Chinese pilots saw excessive AoA on 737MAX on a more or less regular basis:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c311a0d595

MCAS is the/one path to hell on MAX. But it is not the entry portal. That still is vague.


I've been wondering if any other pilots would openly comment on any issues they have had so far with the MAX. Certainly none on this forum have said anything that I have noticed. But it may also be against better judgement to make public comments.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:48 pm

Do pilots have to sign an NDA about performance characteristics?
© 2019. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
vfw614
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:50 pm

We have been told that the CPT had movend to the 737 MAX8 in November. Is it known if he was a captain on ET's 737NGs before or on ET's Q400s?
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:51 pm

WIederling wrote:
1010101 wrote:
This article https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c88 ... 0ddae54075 has two reports of a sudden pitch down after the autopilot is engaged. This would support the notion that something more than MCAS is involved.


Some reports coming in that Chinese pilots saw excessive AoA on 737MAX on a more or less regular basis:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c311a0d595

MCAS is the/one path to hell on MAX. But it is not the entry portal. That still is vague.


Interesting as the AoA->MCAS only scenario was never fully explaining the officially published information about the JT610: there was reported issue before and after the AoA sensors was replaced.
With the actual media and grounding pressure, I wonder how long missing details on the JT610 can be still keep away from publication...
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:52 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Do pilots have to sign an NDA about performance characteristics?

In their _continued_ job contract.
piss of Boeing or your Airline and go back to GA flying ... or travel by pushbike.

I 'd assume that Boeing knows that they were sailing on thin ice with MCAS and its environment.
They'd be very attentive towards people rocking their boat.
Murphy is an optimist
 
khobar95
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:07 pm

For those claiming the MCAS is at fault for uncommanded pitch down because it's a patch and that this could never happen in a FBW designed from the ground up. The below is an A321. Pretty sure this has happened in other FBW aircraft including A330 and B777. Just food for thought:

https://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074
Incident: Lufthansa A321 near Bilbao on Nov 5th 2014, loss of 4000 feet of altitude
By Simon Hradecky, created Tuesday, Nov 18th 2014 17:11Z, last updated Sunday, Dec 28th 2014 22:22Z

A Lufthansa Airbus A321-200, registration D-AIDP performing flight LH-1829 from Bilbao,SP (Spain) to Munich (Germany) with 109 people on board, was climbing through FL310 out of Bilbao about 15 minutes into the flight at 07:03Z, when the aircraft on autopilot unexpectedly lowered the nose and entered a descent reaching 4000 fpm rate of descent. The flight crew was able to stop the descent at FL270 and continued the flight at FL270, later climbing to FL280, and landed safely in Munich about 110 minutes after the occurrence.

The French BEA reported in their weekly bulletin that the occurrence was rated a serious incident and is being investigated by Germany's BFU.

The occurrence aircraft remained on the ground in Munich for 75 hours before resuming service on Nov 8th.

The Aviation Herald learned that the loss of altitude had been caused by two angle of attack sensors having frozen in their positions during climb at an angle, that caused the fly by wire protection to assume, the aircraft entered a stall while it climbed through FL310. The Alpha Protection activated forcing the aircraft to pitch down, which could not be corrected even by full back stick input. The crew eventually disconnected the related Air Data Units and was able to recover the aircraft.
 
Reefwiz
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 pm

Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.





Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?
 
ranold76
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 pm

Any idea why carriers in the UK and China are still flying the B38M in/out/within their nations, despite national body groundings?
Also, I'm surprised Ethiopia Airlines is using another B38M as I speak.
 
denkcflyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 pm

My apologies if this is a dumb question, but how long do you think we’ll have to wait to find out initial findings/report?

I know traditionally it can take months to year(s). But with all of the groundings and cry for answers, do you think this is placing pressure on investigators to release news quicker than normal?
 
planecane
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:22 pm

WIederling wrote:
1010101 wrote:
This article https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c88 ... 0ddae54075 has two reports of a sudden pitch down after the autopilot is engaged. This would support the notion that something more than MCAS is involved.

Edited to add this direct link to the pilot asrs report. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... 10/a486269


Interpretation:
MCAS trimmed high and the activated autopilot corrected that ASAP.
This would indicate that MCAS and flight displays get wrong ( increased AoA) information
while the AP gets the correct one. That is a real can of worms, man!


The highlighted portion of the document you linked to is an incident on a 738, not a 7M8. Also, I don't get your interpretation as it says that after disconnecting AP, they continued to ascend normally. If it was an MCAS issue, it would have continued to pitch the nose down.
 
planecane
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:28 pm

FlyingLaw1 wrote:
Would it be possible to open a different thread disseminating the facts?


Facts? What are those? I thought that aircraft accidents are supposed to be investigated by wildly speculating based on very limited information. We are also supposed to immediately assume that one crash is related to another because they have the common factor that they were both the same model and they both crashed without any FDR data from the more recent crash.
 
yycdel
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:38 pm

ranold76 wrote:
Any idea why carriers in the UK and China are still flying the B38M in/out/within their nations, despite national body groundings?
Also, I'm surprised Ethiopia Airlines is using another B38M as I speak.


it's a flightaware error, those flights are 737-800
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:40 pm

Aerolíneas Argentinas, Aeroméxico, Gol and many other carriers are grounding the fleet of 738Max in the last few hours. This is a major trouble for Boeing and the stocks will continue to fall if the company doesn’t take a strong action to make a public commitment to solve any problem and warrant the safety of the model in a very short time.
I love Boeing planes and this is really sad, but let’s face it, the things have been managed horribly from a public view standpoint and the lack of a strong response by Boeing is not helping.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:49 pm

vfw614 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
vfw614 wrote:

"Many others"? 35 airlines (and counting) have grounded their MAXs. 13 have not or have not been grounded, 5 of them US/Canadian airlines (the status of 5 MAXs operated by 3 small airlines is currently unknown).

So outside North Americs, 81 per cent of operators have grounded their MAXs. Of those very few that have not, some are effectively unable to continue operating them because of airspace restrictions across Europe (LOT, Smartwings) so I expect them to technically ground soon just for the sake of avoiding bad PR.

Simply not true.

China won't permit them to fly domestically. The airlines aren't really free to make their own decisions. They have been grounded, the airlines didn't "ground" them. And that's a huge chunk of the number of airlines.

A look at the 767 accident in Houston and the latest information, it looks like the pilots were fighting a perceived uncommanded upward trajectory at full thrust, and then crashed it into the ground. We have no absolute cause yet. All of them should be grounded around the world...


Hence my wording "13 have not or have not been grounded". I should have taken the time, admittedly, to write "have not grounded at their own will or have not been grounded by the authorities."

Aviation safety is a risk management business. Apparently you are a risk taker who has views very different from dozens of more cautious MAX 8 operators and/or aviation authorities across the globe. They have have all come to the conclusion that until the cause of the crash has been established at least to some extent it is too risky to do commercial operations with the MAX 8. And quite frankly, considering the 350 passengers killed I feel quite relieved that folks in charge at aviation authorities and airlines have a less relaxed view on gambling with someone else's life than you.

As we are just at it, let me update the list:

38 airlines (and counting) have grounded their MAXs at their will or after being instructed to do so. 12 still operate MAX 8s at this moment, 5 of them US/Canadian airlines: American, Southwest, Sunwing, Air Canada and Westjet. The others are Spicejet, flydubai, Smartwings, Copa, Fiji, S7 and SCAT. With Polish, German and Italian airspace now closed, Smartwings is pretty much trapped in the Czech republic, so they are de facto grounded as well except for some exotic charters they operate like TLV-LPA.

Copa does NOT use the 3M8 but the 9 instead.

Gonzalo wrote:
Aerolíneas Argentinas, Aeroméxico, Gol and many other carriers are grounding the fleet of 738Max in the last few hours. This is a major trouble for Boeing and the stocks will continue to fall if the company doesn’t take a strong action to make a public commitment to solve any problem and warrant the safety of the model in a very short time.
I love Boeing planes and this is really sad, but let’s face it, the things have been managed horribly from a public view standpoint and the lack of a strong response by Boeing is not helping.

Rgds.
G.

Dude, what problem are they going to fix when BOTH crash causes havent been established yet?
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:58 pm

Boeing787Guy wrote:
[*]
Curiousflyer wrote:
.... because of the government shutdown, which leaves blood on Trump's hands too, the monster. Including eight Americans.


Well, only took 34 pages before Trump gets blamed, sad. The shutdown had ZERO to do with this as others have said.. ADs were absolutely processed during the shutdown

I mean.. it took 25 pages for people to start blaming WN as well because the Max lol.
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

:lol:
 
usflyguy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:08 am

Is it possible that the systems were hacked which resulted in a third party hacker causing the control issues and eventual crash?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:13 am

Etheereal wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Simply not true.

China won't permit them to fly domestically. The airlines aren't really free to make their own decisions. They have been grounded, the airlines didn't "ground" them. And that's a huge chunk of the number of airlines.

A look at the 767 accident in Houston and the latest information, it looks like the pilots were fighting a perceived uncommanded upward trajectory at full thrust, and then crashed it into the ground. We have no absolute cause yet. All of them should be grounded around the world...


Hence my wording "13 have not or have not been grounded". I should have taken the time, admittedly, to write "have not grounded at their own will or have not been grounded by the authorities."

Aviation safety is a risk management business. Apparently you are a risk taker who has views very different from dozens of more cautious MAX 8 operators and/or aviation authorities across the globe. They have have all come to the conclusion that until the cause of the crash has been established at least to some extent it is too risky to do commercial operations with the MAX 8. And quite frankly, considering the 350 passengers killed I feel quite relieved that folks in charge at aviation authorities and airlines have a less relaxed view on gambling with someone else's life than you.

As we are just at it, let me update the list:

38 airlines (and counting) have grounded their MAXs at their will or after being instructed to do so. 12 still operate MAX 8s at this moment, 5 of them US/Canadian airlines: American, Southwest, Sunwing, Air Canada and Westjet. The others are Spicejet, flydubai, Smartwings, Copa, Fiji, S7 and SCAT. With Polish, German and Italian airspace now closed, Smartwings is pretty much trapped in the Czech republic, so they are de facto grounded as well except for some exotic charters they operate like TLV-LPA.

Copa does NOT use the 3M8 but the 9 instead.

Gonzalo wrote:
Aerolíneas Argentinas, Aeroméxico, Gol and many other carriers are grounding the fleet of 738Max in the last few hours. This is a major trouble for Boeing and the stocks will continue to fall if the company doesn’t take a strong action to make a public commitment to solve any problem and warrant the safety of the model in a very short time.
I love Boeing planes and this is really sad, but let’s face it, the things have been managed horribly from a public view standpoint and the lack of a strong response by Boeing is not helping.

Rgds.
G.

Dude, what problem are they going to fix when BOTH crash causes havent been established yet?


Nobody is asking for an immediate solution, I know how air accident investigation works. I’m talking about public commitment to fix the problem or problems no matter the cost and time, I’m talking about a different attitude in front of the public and the customers, a more empathetic attitude, so far all we have from the biggest aircraft company of the world is a short statement saying “we will help with the investigators”. That’s not enough in the current scenario.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:16 am

khobar95 wrote:
... The Aviation Herald learned that the loss of altitude had been caused by two angle of attack sensors having frozen in their positions ...


What puzzles me is that the computers in these advanced aircraft cannot make use of the vast amount of sensors in a more intelligent way. It is (I know it is) entirely possible to give a pretty good estimate of AoA based on other input than only AoA sensors. It could be derived from throttle, actual thrust (is that available by the way?), rudder deflection, speed, altitude and perhaps some other data. This type of "secondary" data could be used to warn the pilots that a set of sensors MAY be wrong and give them the option to deactivate systems that are dependant on them, or automatically switch to another sensor if available. In the case with both AoA sensors frozen, the system could even decide to use the derived AoA and warn that this is the case.

A MAX8/9 that has had no extraordinary stick input, just rotated at a speed that is "normal", is accelerating as expected and is climbing at an expected rate cannot all of a sudden go into an angle of attack of epic proportions.

I sometimes refer to the CRJ-200PF crash in Sweden Jan 8th 2016. The captain's "Primary Flight Display showed a pitch angle of 15 degrees nose up with speed and altitude remaining unchanged" [quote from the investigation]. The #1 Inertial Reference System (IRS) (displayed on the left side PFD) had started indicating a pitch that was both untrue and completely unrealistic. Sadly, the captain didn't even consult the FO but started pitching down, causing a dive, and from there everything "went south". The captain was probably startled by the high pitch and started to "counteract" that by lowering the nose. The FO didn't understand a thing because his PFD was showing the correct pitch. Both pilots must have felt all was normal before the captain saw the incorrect pitch on the PFD. If the pitch had been that high, speed would have decreased and/or altitude increased, all possible to "sense" by a human, and, more interestingly, by the computers!!! Humans can be fooled into believing all is normal (spatial disorientation, somatogravic illusion and other phenomena) but computers with enough sensors can decide that at least one sensor is incorrect, perhaps even determine which one. In this case, as speed, altitude and one IRS were consistent with each other, that would wash out pitch from the #1 IRS as the culprit. One action could be to stop displaying pitch on the left PFD, or draw a red cross over it, still displaying the false value. A warning that the #1 IRS was probably giving a false value should be easy to produce.

I do understand that such modifications cannot be done easily, but if the values from the present systems are fed to a separate computer, it could at least warn the pilots that something is wrong, and they can be aided into deciding how to troubleshoot that. This type of "secondary" or "synthetic" readings should be considered in the future at least. If this had been the case in the MAX, it might just have averted both crashes.

/Fredrik
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:20 am

usflyguy wrote:
Is it possible that the systems were hacked which resulted in a third party hacker causing the control issues and eventual crash?

Yes, but extremely unlikely as stated multiple times here. Nothing indicates this as far as I'm aware. Until some shred of evidence or suspicion with some substance is presented, I'd discard the hacking theory.
 
NWNightfly
Posts: 17
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 am

osiris30 wrote:
Boeing was (as I understand it) originally targeting this month for the change but it has apparently slipped a bit. Embedded QA is hard. Embedded QA in a highly regulated industry is infinitely harder (one of our old posters Astuteman had horror stories from back in the day as it related to software on nuclear subs).


I'm guessing the update will slip quite a bit more, until further is known about the causes of this crash and what role MCAS may or may not have had in it. The last thing Boeing wants to have happen is to roll out a "fix," announce it to the public, and then have a newly-updated aircraft go down in a similar manner. That might be enough to kill the entire company.

Furthermore, if the principle cause of this crash turns out to be some other completely-different factor that's in any way related to the aircraft's software, I would guess that would delay the update further to incorporate needed changes in that as well.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 am

FredrikHAD wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
... The Aviation Herald learned that the loss of altitude had been caused by two angle of attack sensors having frozen in their positions ...


What puzzles me is that the computers in these advanced aircraft cannot make use of the vast amount of sensors in a more intelligent way. It is (I know it is) entirely possible to give a pretty good estimate of AoA based on other input than only AoA sensors. It could be derived from throttle, actual thrust (is that available by the way?), rudder deflection, speed, altitude and perhaps some other data. This type of "secondary" data could be used to warn the pilots that a set of sensors MAY be wrong and give them the option to deactivate systems that are dependant on them, or automatically switch to another sensor if available. In the case with both AoA sensors frozen, the system could even decide to use the derived AoA and warn that this is the case.

A MAX8/9 that has had no extraordinary stick input, just rotated at a speed that is "normal", is accelerating as expected and is climbing at an expected rate cannot all of a sudden go into an angle of attack of epic proportions.

I sometimes refer to the CRJ-200PF crash in Sweden Jan 8th 2016. The captain's "Primary Flight Display showed a pitch angle of 15 degrees nose up with speed and altitude remaining unchanged" [quote from the investigation]. The #1 Inertial Reference System (IRS) (displayed on the left side PFD) had started indicating a pitch that was both untrue and completely unrealistic. Sadly, the captain didn't even consult the FO but started pitching down, causing a dive, and from there everything "went south". The captain was probably startled by the high pitch and started to "counteract" that by lowering the nose. The FO didn't understand a thing because his PFD was showing the correct pitch. Both pilots must have felt all was normal before the captain saw the incorrect pitch on the PFD. If the pitch had been that high, speed would have decreased and/or altitude increased, all possible to "sense" by a human, and, more interestingly, by the computers!!! Humans can be fooled into believing all is normal (spatial disorientation, somatogravic illusion and other phenomena) but computers with enough sensors can decide that at least one sensor is incorrect, perhaps even determine which one. In this case, as speed, altitude and one IRS were consistent with each other, that would wash out pitch from the #1 IRS as the culprit. One action could be to stop displaying pitch on the left PFD, or draw a red cross over it, still displaying the false value. A warning that the #1 IRS was probably giving a false value should be easy to produce.

I do understand that such modifications cannot be done easily, but if the values from the present systems are fed to a separate computer, it could at least warn the pilots that something is wrong, and they can be aided into deciding how to troubleshoot that. This type of "secondary" or "synthetic" readings should be considered in the future at least. If this had been the case in the MAX, it might just have averted both crashes.

/Fredrik


That’s what the pilots are there for? “I’ve got a large nose-up indication. What’s my airspeed doing? It’s constant and consistent with the thrust set. What’s the standby attitude saying? Level, okay, co-pilot what do see? Good over here. You got the plane, then.”

That’s how it’s supposed to work. And that’s how we’re trained, if we use our minds, not react out of fear and keep our guts out of throats. Training and experience help.

GF
 
NWNightfly
Posts: 17
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:25 am

WIederling wrote:
1010101 wrote:
This article https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c88 ... 0ddae54075 has two reports of a sudden pitch down after the autopilot is engaged. This would support the notion that something more than MCAS is involved.

Edited to add this direct link to the pilot asrs report. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... 10/a486269


Interpretation:
MCAS trimmed high and the activated autopilot corrected that ASAP.
This would indicate that MCAS and flight displays get wrong ( increased AoA) information
while the AP gets the correct one. That is a real can of worms, man!


Except isn't it pretty much SOP throughout the world to activate the autopilot before fully retracting the flaps? In which case, once again, MCAS would have never been engaged.
 
billreid
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:33 am

Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.





Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?



Sounds like tourism. Or a hold issue. A criminal act. I find it far greater a probability that it was an onboard design problem.
The US Embassy had put out a warning to avoid the airport that day. But all the worlds experts think its the plane because a crash occurred six months ago. A lot of crow to eat if it was an onboard cabin explosion. If 25 people all saw fire and parts falling then something happened unrelated to the airframe. New Aircraft don't fall apart at 150KNIAS.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Elementalism
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:35 am

Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.





Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?


White smoke? Anybody know if the cargo contained Lithium Ion batteries?
 
Reefwiz
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 am

Why are they grounding MAX at all??

Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 am

If the Chinese or anybody were concerned about all these supposed issues the data should have been downloaded and sent to the manfacturer/regulatory agency. Facts and data not rumor.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 am

NWNightfly wrote:
WIederling wrote:
1010101 wrote:
This article https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c88 ... 0ddae54075 has two reports of a sudden pitch down after the autopilot is engaged. This would support the notion that something more than MCAS is involved.

Edited to add this direct link to the pilot asrs report. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... 10/a486269


Interpretation:
MCAS trimmed high and the activated autopilot corrected that ASAP.
This would indicate that MCAS and flight displays get wrong ( increased AoA) information
while the AP gets the correct one. That is a real can of worms, man!


Except isn't it pretty much SOP throughout the world to activate the autopilot before fully retracting the flaps? In which case, once again, MCAS would have never been engaged.


I sure hope not—if you can’t hand fly the plane in the current regime of flight, you, as a pilot, have no business being there. Exception being autoland approaches and some RNP operations, but you still need to be reac6 to take over the flying.

GF
 
maui19
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:44 am

There is something that has been nagging at me about both these crashes. In both cases, the pilots were struggling with the aricraft, but did seem to be overcoming the problem (MCAS) as shown by their continuing to climb, albeit haltingly. But at the end, both planes encountered something that caused them to nosedive. I feel like this is a big piece of the puzzle is yet to be identified. Perhaps the final problem occurs when they try to turn the AC to return to the airport. I think there's more to this than just MCAS and a bad sensor. But who knows.
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:44 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FredrikHAD wrote:
khobar95 wrote:
... The Aviation Herald learned that the loss of altitude had been caused by two angle of attack sensors having frozen in their positions ...


What puzzles me is that the computers in these advanced aircraft cannot make use of the vast amount of sensors in a more intelligent way. It is (I know it is) entirely possible to give a pretty good estimate of AoA based on other input than only AoA sensors. It could be derived from throttle, actual thrust (is that available by the way?), rudder deflection, speed, altitude and perhaps some other data. This type of "secondary" data could be used to warn the pilots that a set of sensors MAY be wrong and give them the option to deactivate systems that are dependant on them, or automatically switch to another sensor if available. In the case with both AoA sensors frozen, the system could even decide to use the derived AoA and warn that this is the case.

A MAX8/9 that has had no extraordinary stick input, just rotated at a speed that is "normal", is accelerating as expected and is climbing at an expected rate cannot all of a sudden go into an angle of attack of epic proportions.

I sometimes refer to the CRJ-200PF crash in Sweden Jan 8th 2016. The captain's "Primary Flight Display showed a pitch angle of 15 degrees nose up with speed and altitude remaining unchanged" [quote from the investigation]. The #1 Inertial Reference System (IRS) (displayed on the left side PFD) had started indicating a pitch that was both untrue and completely unrealistic. Sadly, the captain didn't even consult the FO but started pitching down, causing a dive, and from there everything "went south". The captain was probably startled by the high pitch and started to "counteract" that by lowering the nose. The FO didn't understand a thing because his PFD was showing the correct pitch. Both pilots must have felt all was normal before the captain saw the incorrect pitch on the PFD. If the pitch had been that high, speed would have decreased and/or altitude increased, all possible to "sense" by a human, and, more interestingly, by the computers!!! Humans can be fooled into believing all is normal (spatial disorientation, somatogravic illusion and other phenomena) but computers with enough sensors can decide that at least one sensor is incorrect, perhaps even determine which one. In this case, as speed, altitude and one IRS were consistent with each other, that would wash out pitch from the #1 IRS as the culprit. One action could be to stop displaying pitch on the left PFD, or draw a red cross over it, still displaying the false value. A warning that the #1 IRS was probably giving a false value should be easy to produce.

I do understand that such modifications cannot be done easily, but if the values from the present systems are fed to a separate computer, it could at least warn the pilots that something is wrong, and they can be aided into deciding how to troubleshoot that. This type of "secondary" or "synthetic" readings should be considered in the future at least. If this had been the case in the MAX, it might just have averted both crashes.

/Fredrik


That’s what the pilots are there for? “I’ve got a large nose-up indication. What’s my airspeed doing? It’s constant and consistent with the thrust set. What’s the standby attitude saying? Level, okay, co-pilot what do see? Good over here. You got the plane, then.”

That’s how it’s supposed to work. And that’s how we’re trained, if we use our minds, not react out of fear and keep our guts out of throats. Training and experience help.

GF


Apparently some pilots need the help. Why not use the computers optimally?
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:47 am

Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.


Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?

I can't believe you trust eye witnesses, or that you think these accounts weren't posted several times already. :D

They are interesting reports, though.
Last edited by LTC8K6 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
gia777
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:49 am

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots-r ... 20870.html
This article explain how the autpilot at B737MAX have issues

Airline pilots on at least two U.S. flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 Max planes to tilt down suddenly.

The pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

As described by the pilots, however, the problem did not appear related to a new automated anti-stall system that is suspected of contributing to a deadly October crash in Indonesia.

The Max 8 is at the center of a growing global ban by more than 40 countries following a second fatal crash, this time in Ethiopia, in less than five months. In the U.S., however, the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines continued to permit the planes to fly.

American Airlines and Southwest Airlines operate the 737 Max 8, and United Airlines flies a slightly larger version, the Max 9. All three carriers vouched for the safety of Max aircraft on Wednesday

The pilot reports were filed last year in a data base compiled by NASA. They are voluntary safety reports and do not publicly reveal the names of pilots, the airlines or the location of the incidents.

It was unclear whether the accounts led to any actions by the FAA or the pilots' airlines.

In one report, an airline captain said that immediately after putting the plane on autopilot, the co-pilot called out "Descending," followed by an audio cockpit warning, "Don't sink, don't sink!"

The captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and resumed climbing.

"With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention," the captain wrote. "Best guess from me is airspeed fluctuation" due to a brief weather system overwhelming the plane's automation.

On another flight, the co-pilot said that seconds after engaging the autopilot, the nose pitched downward and the plane began descending at 1,200 to 1,500 feet (365 to 460 meters) per minute. As in the other flight, the plane's low-altitude-warning system issued an audio warning. The captain disconnected autopilot, and the plane began to climb.
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:49 am

maui19 wrote:
There is something that has been nagging at me about both these crashes. In both cases, the pilots were struggling with the aricraft, but did seem to be overcoming the problem (MCAS) as shown by their continuing to climb, albeit haltingly. But at the end, both planes encountered something that caused them to nosedive. I feel like this is a big piece of the puzzle is yet to be identified. Perhaps the final problem occurs when they try to turn the AC to return to the airport. I think there's more to this than just MCAS and a bad sensor. But who knows.


ET302 only managed to gain about 1,000 feet, so it didn't climb much.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:50 am

Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.


It was posted dozens of pages ago, before Reuters even learned of it.

Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?


If the witness is correct, which they are more than likely not.

That's why not a lot of credence has been given to it. Witnesses - especially *one* witness - are very rarely reliable. If there's a pattern among dozens of witnesses, then ok, you look for general things you can take away from that. But very few people - even if they know anything about aviation - can accurately describe what they're seeing in an unusual situation like this. In the Northwest 255 accident, for example, there were other pilots who watched that flight take off and swore that the flaps were down. They weren't. And those were *pilots*. You expect a layperson to do better?

Ignore the witnesses until there's some corroborating evidence, which there is not right now. A single witness statement should be treated as at best "interesting" until proven otherwise, but it's certainly no smoking gun, or even necessarily evidence of anything.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 am

billreid wrote:
Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.





Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?



Sounds like tourism. Or a hold issue. A criminal act. I find it far greater a probability that it was an onboard design problem.
The US Embassy had put out a warning to avoid the airport that day. But all the worlds experts think its the plane because a crash occurred six months ago. A lot of crow to eat if it was an onboard cabin explosion. If 25 people all saw fire and parts falling then something happened unrelated to the airframe. New Aircraft don't fall apart at 150KNIAS.

I’ve been posting this the whole thread. Bomb or explosion is so obvious. We don’t ground entire Boeing fleets after accidents in Africa and an airline that crashed 4 or 5 NGs
 
AvFanNJ
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 am

Miquel787 wrote:
So much opinions here, so much speculation about the cause of the accident.I am very sorry for all the victims from the crash and if there is a problem with the 737 MAX Boeing should fix it very promptly.

But i also feel sorry for Boeing.These events will ruin and haunt the company for a long time.Boeing doesn.t build planes to fall out of the sky.I think safety is always their primary concern. I saw so many mumbo jumbo stories in the press.So many dumb and brainless reactions on Facebook like 'kill Boeing or Ban Boeing airplanes, or those idiots who build them in Renton should be shot" These comments were all there..

I.m not a pilot or working in aviation.But i love aviation.Boeing or Airbus, they all build great machines.But airplanebuilding is complex. And if mistakes were made,they will be fixed.I hope the cause will quickly be found and it will fly again.I.m not going to specuate because i.don.t know anything about the technical systems.Let the investigators do their job and we have to wait and see what the outcome of this tragic accident is.

I still fly Boeing airplanes in the future, no doubt about it.

Thank you for one of the more and unfortunately few rational posts on this topic in here. It's truly sad to see how unhinged some of the posters are. I've seldom seen such anger in the civil aviation forum with folks not only attacking Boeing and making judgements before all the facts are in but also throwing barbs at other members. Truly horrified at the nastiness I'm seeing. I understand folks being reticent about flying on a MAX right now but making rash indictments of the company for shortchanging safety for profits is premature until we have a root cause or causes for these crashes. I guess we can expect some of that from diehard fanboys and haters but really none of this banter is valid until the facts are in. No denying this is crisis time at Boeing but a lot of this outrage is a knee-jerk reaction lacking as yet, a clear rationale. If the FAA links this latest crash to the October one, the plane will be grounded but until then, U.S. airlines are flying it safely and I for one see no reason myself to avoid flying on it. Sure, those nervous about it should avoid it because flying should be about peace of mind. And I also think there are bunch of posters in here who need to turn it down, at least until a judgement has been rendered.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:53 am

spacecadet wrote:
Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.


It was posted dozens of pages ago, before Reuters even learned of it.

Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?


If the witness is correct, which they are more than likely not.

That's why not a lot of credence has been given to it. Witnesses - especially *one* witness - are very rarely reliable. If there's a pattern among dozens of witnesses, then ok, you look for general things you can take away from that. But very few people - even if they know anything about aviation - can accurately describe what they're seeing in an unusual situation like this. In the Northwest 255 accident, for example, there were other pilots who watched that flight take off and swore that the flaps were down. They weren't. And those were *pilots*. You expect a layperson to do better?

Ignore the witnesses until there's some corroborating evidence, which there is not right now. A single witness statement should be treated as at best "interesting" until proven otherwise, but it's certainly no smoking gun, or even necessarily evidence of anything.

He said half a dozen witnesses but you cut that off his quote.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:55 am

Reefwiz wrote:
Why are they grounding MAX at all??

Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ



Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.



Maybe it's not part of their agenda?

Thank you for posting it twice though :)
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
zuckie13
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:01 am

gia777 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots-reported-issues-us-boeing-204120870.html
This article explain how the autpilot at B737MAX have issues

Airline pilots on at least two U.S. flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 Max planes to tilt down suddenly.

The pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

As described by the pilots, however, the problem did not appear related to a new automated anti-stall system that is suspected of contributing to a deadly October crash in Indonesia.

The Max 8 is at the center of a growing global ban by more than 40 countries following a second fatal crash, this time in Ethiopia, in less than five months. In the U.S., however, the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines continued to permit the planes to fly.

American Airlines and Southwest Airlines operate the 737 Max 8, and United Airlines flies a slightly larger version, the Max 9. All three carriers vouched for the safety of Max aircraft on Wednesday

The pilot reports were filed last year in a data base compiled by NASA. They are voluntary safety reports and do not publicly reveal the names of pilots, the airlines or the location of the incidents.

It was unclear whether the accounts led to any actions by the FAA or the pilots' airlines.

In one report, an airline captain said that immediately after putting the plane on autopilot, the co-pilot called out "Descending," followed by an audio cockpit warning, "Don't sink, don't sink!"

The captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and resumed climbing.

"With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention," the captain wrote. "Best guess from me is airspeed fluctuation" due to a brief weather system overwhelming the plane's automation.

On another flight, the co-pilot said that seconds after engaging the autopilot, the nose pitched downward and the plane began descending at 1,200 to 1,500 feet (365 to 460 meters) per minute. As in the other flight, the plane's low-altitude-warning system issued an audio warning. The captain disconnected autopilot, and the plane began to climb.


Possible the planes were not trimmed well when AP was engaged. Maybe pilot engaged the AP and trim was so bad it nosed down because it had to make a major adjustment?
 
Delta717
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:02 am

32andBelow wrote:
I’ve been posting this the whole thread. Bomb or explosion is so obvious. We don’t ground entire Boeing fleets after accidents in Africa and an airline that crashed 4 or 5 NGs


The debris field seems to say otherwise.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:03 am

zuckie13 wrote:
gia777 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots-reported-issues-us-boeing-204120870.html
This article explain how the autpilot at B737MAX have issues

Airline pilots on at least two U.S. flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 Max planes to tilt down suddenly.

The pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

As described by the pilots, however, the problem did not appear related to a new automated anti-stall system that is suspected of contributing to a deadly October crash in Indonesia.

The Max 8 is at the center of a growing global ban by more than 40 countries following a second fatal crash, this time in Ethiopia, in less than five months. In the U.S., however, the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines continued to permit the planes to fly.

American Airlines and Southwest Airlines operate the 737 Max 8, and United Airlines flies a slightly larger version, the Max 9. All three carriers vouched for the safety of Max aircraft on Wednesday

The pilot reports were filed last year in a data base compiled by NASA. They are voluntary safety reports and do not publicly reveal the names of pilots, the airlines or the location of the incidents.

It was unclear whether the accounts led to any actions by the FAA or the pilots' airlines.

In one report, an airline captain said that immediately after putting the plane on autopilot, the co-pilot called out "Descending," followed by an audio cockpit warning, "Don't sink, don't sink!"

The captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and resumed climbing.

"With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention," the captain wrote. "Best guess from me is airspeed fluctuation" due to a brief weather system overwhelming the plane's automation.

On another flight, the co-pilot said that seconds after engaging the autopilot, the nose pitched downward and the plane began descending at 1,200 to 1,500 feet (365 to 460 meters) per minute. As in the other flight, the plane's low-altitude-warning system issued an audio warning. The captain disconnected autopilot, and the plane began to climb.


Possible the planes were not trimmed well when AP was engaged. Maybe pilot engaged the AP and trim was so bad it nosed down because it had to make a major adjustment?


Could be and you can bet your arse it was investigated, since nothing came of it I would assume it was determined to be a nonissue.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:03 am

Delta717 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I’ve been posting this the whole thread. Bomb or explosion is so obvious. We don’t ground entire Boeing fleets after accidents in Africa and an airline that crashed 4 or 5 NGs


The debris field seems to say otherwise.

Small
Explosion that made the plane uncontrollable. It was at 1000ft. How big do you think the field would be?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:05 am

FredrikHAD wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
FredrikHAD wrote:

What puzzles me is that the computers in these advanced aircraft cannot make use of the vast amount of sensors in a more intelligent way. It is (I know it is) entirely possible to give a pretty good estimate of AoA based on other input than only AoA sensors. It could be derived from throttle, actual thrust (is that available by the way?), rudder deflection, speed, altitude and perhaps some other data. This type of "secondary" data could be used to warn the pilots that a set of sensors MAY be wrong and give them the option to deactivate systems that are dependant on them, or automatically switch to another sensor if available. In the case with both AoA sensors frozen, the system could even decide to use the derived AoA and warn that this is the case.

A MAX8/9 that has had no extraordinary stick input, just rotated at a speed that is "normal", is accelerating as expected and is climbing at an expected rate cannot all of a sudden go into an angle of attack of epic proportions.

I sometimes refer to the CRJ-200PF crash in Sweden Jan 8th 2016. The captain's "Primary Flight Display showed a pitch angle of 15 degrees nose up with speed and altitude remaining unchanged" [quote from the investigation]. The #1 Inertial Reference System (IRS) (displayed on the left side PFD) had started indicating a pitch that was both untrue and completely unrealistic. Sadly, the captain didn't even consult the FO but started pitching down, causing a dive, and from there everything "went south". The captain was probably startled by the high pitch and started to "counteract" that by lowering the nose. The FO didn't understand a thing because his PFD was showing the correct pitch. Both pilots must have felt all was normal before the captain saw the incorrect pitch on the PFD. If the pitch had been that high, speed would have decreased and/or altitude increased, all possible to "sense" by a human, and, more interestingly, by the computers!!! Humans can be fooled into believing all is normal (spatial disorientation, somatogravic illusion and other phenomena) but computers with enough sensors can decide that at least one sensor is incorrect, perhaps even determine which one. In this case, as speed, altitude and one IRS were consistent with each other, that would wash out pitch from the #1 IRS as the culprit. One action could be to stop displaying pitch on the left PFD, or draw a red cross over it, still displaying the false value. A warning that the #1 IRS was probably giving a false value should be easy to produce.

I do understand that such modifications cannot be done easily, but if the values from the present systems are fed to a separate computer, it could at least warn the pilots that something is wrong, and they can be aided into deciding how to troubleshoot that. This type of "secondary" or "synthetic" readings should be considered in the future at least. If this had been the case in the MAX, it might just have averted both crashes.

/Fredrik


That’s what the pilots are there for? “I’ve got a large nose-up indication. What’s my airspeed doing? It’s constant and consistent with the thrust set. What’s the standby attitude saying? Level, okay, co-pilot what do see? Good over here. You got the plane, then.”

That’s how it’s supposed to work. And that’s how we’re trained, if we use our minds, not react out of fear and keep our guts out of throats. Training and experience help.

GF


Apparently some pilots need the help. Why not use the computers optimally?


Because you’re adding another layer that introduces new failure modes. We need fewer modes, not more.

GF
 
hangar30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:22 am

Does ET have ACARS for this aircraft, if so would 6 minutes be enough to provide ping information and if so was MCAS included in the ET paid for package?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:07 am

billreid wrote:
Reefwiz wrote:
Can't believe that no one has posted this update from Reuters.

So much for 1700 posts of theory and fantasy.

Looks more like fire and or explosion or hull intrusion is a strong possibility.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QS1LJ

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.





Paper and clothing dropping from the sky as the plane trailed smoke and sparks (fire)... doesn't sound like software, eh?



Sounds like tourism. Or a hold issue. A criminal act. I find it far greater a probability that it was an onboard design problem.
The US Embassy had put out a warning to avoid the airport that day. But all the worlds experts think its the plane because a crash occurred six months ago. A lot of crow to eat if it was an onboard cabin explosion. If 25 people all saw fire and parts falling then something happened unrelated to the airframe. New Aircraft don't fall apart at 150KNIAS.


Hey I know tourists are annoying but I doubt they brought down the plane!

... sorry, I couldn't help it.
 
skuds
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:21 am

Condolences to the families of the lost.

Good evening, My first post... Long time lurker... Please be gentle.
After slogging thru this thread the last couple of days, I’ve learned a lot... Coo-does to most!

Referencing FredrikHAD‘s comments, and acknowledging that I have no experience in aircraft flight systems... However, I do have 35 years of human space flight ground systems engineering and management experience in Houston.

I’m wondering if there is systems integration issues between the 738’s aircraft’s autopilot system and the seemingly add-in MCAS that today’s s/w upgrade may address. The autopilot transition’s dipping of the aircraft’s nose is most disconcerting.

Questions I have include: Do all the sensors live on a network using standard communications protocols or are they point-to-point, e.g., is it possible to efficiently add additional redundant sensors? Is the base MCAS capable of taking on additional inputs? Is there a general communications pathway between the autopilot, flap settings and MCAS that goes beyond “I’m on and therefore you’re off”? e.g., Do they interrogate each other and pass key flight parameters?

Or... Is this a closed system that would require reengineering of each subsystem, a bazillion $s and recertifications?
Or, could this software “patch” address some or all of these key integration issues?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:29 am

32andBelow wrote:
Delta717 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I’ve been posting this the whole thread. Bomb or explosion is so obvious. We don’t ground entire Boeing fleets after accidents in Africa and an airline that crashed 4 or 5 NGs

The debris field seems to say otherwise.

Small
Explosion that made the plane uncontrollable. It was at 1000ft. How big do you think the field would be?

Please explain how you know the aircraft was at 1,000 ft?

Also, exactly when did the explosive device detonate? (ok, approximately will do - as in what part of the short flight?)

I note that we do not have access to ATC transcripts, but presumably the Ethiopians do.
A small explosion might have been mentioned by the pilots don't you think? Unless it happened very shortly before the crash itself.

In which case...
Please explain the inconsistent speed data at take-off?
Please explain the handling issues reported shortly after take-off?

The only other option is the grand conspiracy; Ethiopia knows it was a bomb, but is busy hiding all the evidence..... :roll:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:35 am

Improving MCAS doesn't necessarily make it the cause of the crash, though.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:37 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Delta717 wrote:
The debris field seems to say otherwise.

Small
Explosion that made the plane uncontrollable. It was at 1000ft. How big do you think the field would be?

Please explain how you know the aircraft was at 1,000 ft?

Also, exactly when did the explosive device detonate? (ok, approximately will do - as in what part of the short flight?)

I note that we do not have access to ATC transcripts, but presumably the Ethiopians do.
A small explosion might have been mentioned by the pilots don't you think? Unless it happened very shortly before the crash itself.

In which case...
Please explain the inconsistent speed data at take-off?
Please explain the handling issues reported shortly after take-off?

The only other option is the grand conspiracy; Ethiopia knows it was a bomb, but is busy hiding all the evidence..... :roll:

Could easily have been an altimeter bomb. Or detonated by a passenger.

The NTSB just got there. I doubt Ethiopian knows much of anything tbh. I think NTSB and Boeing will take the primary lead. The easiest explanation is usually the most likely.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1479
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:45 am

I've seen lots of photos of debris....Anyone seen a photo of the engines?
 
planecane
Posts: 1078
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:47 am

zuckie13 wrote:
gia777 wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pilots-reported-issues-us-boeing-204120870.html
This article explain how the autpilot at B737MAX have issues

Airline pilots on at least two U.S. flights have reported that an automated system seemed to cause their Boeing 737 Max planes to tilt down suddenly.

The pilots said that soon after engaging the autopilot on Boeing 737 Max 8 planes, the nose tilted down sharply. In both cases, they recovered quickly after disconnecting the autopilot.

As described by the pilots, however, the problem did not appear related to a new automated anti-stall system that is suspected of contributing to a deadly October crash in Indonesia.

The Max 8 is at the center of a growing global ban by more than 40 countries following a second fatal crash, this time in Ethiopia, in less than five months. In the U.S., however, the Federal Aviation Administration and airlines continued to permit the planes to fly.

American Airlines and Southwest Airlines operate the 737 Max 8, and United Airlines flies a slightly larger version, the Max 9. All three carriers vouched for the safety of Max aircraft on Wednesday

The pilot reports were filed last year in a data base compiled by NASA. They are voluntary safety reports and do not publicly reveal the names of pilots, the airlines or the location of the incidents.

It was unclear whether the accounts led to any actions by the FAA or the pilots' airlines.

In one report, an airline captain said that immediately after putting the plane on autopilot, the co-pilot called out "Descending," followed by an audio cockpit warning, "Don't sink, don't sink!"

The captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and resumed climbing.

"With the concerns with the MAX 8 nose down stuff, we both thought it appropriate to bring it to your attention," the captain wrote. "Best guess from me is airspeed fluctuation" due to a brief weather system overwhelming the plane's automation.

On another flight, the co-pilot said that seconds after engaging the autopilot, the nose pitched downward and the plane began descending at 1,200 to 1,500 feet (365 to 460 meters) per minute. As in the other flight, the plane's low-altitude-warning system issued an audio warning. The captain disconnected autopilot, and the plane began to climb.


Possible the planes were not trimmed well when AP was engaged. Maybe pilot engaged the AP and trim was so bad it nosed down because it had to make a major adjustment?


Does the AP not have control of the elevators?

Did they change the AP from the NG to the MAX? I know they made the spoilers FBW but were there changes to the way they are commanded or did they just replace mechanical linkages with electric signals?

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