osiris30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:19 pm

Well here is some new news:

"A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected in early January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be. U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks."

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to- ... 1552413489 (sorry for the paywall)
Last edited by osiris30 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:28 pm

Bricktop wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Instead of getting into a urinating contest over who gets to look at the data, download it and share it already. Observers can watch the download. That will shut most people up. I say most, because there's a pathetic anti- pro-American contingent here that will never be assuaged under any circumstances.

Fixed it for ya. :checkmark:

If that's your only edit, we have a deal. Let's stop the BS and get the analysis done as quickly and transparently as possible. It's absurd that Lion Air's investigation is taking so long. Makes one wonder about what's going on there.

Crowd sourcing data analysis can be a great thing. Releasing thr raw data without comment can be beneficial in the modern computer age.

I’mall for it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Curiousflyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:29 pm

osiris30 wrote:
Well here is some new news:

"A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected in early January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be. U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks."


Who said that the shutdown did not slow the fix? It seems not everyone thinks the same... blood on Trump's hands!

It is better that those black boxes are sent to the UK, the administration there is not recovering from a shutdown.
 
buzzard302
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:30 pm

I really like Boeing, but this is some egg on their face if it's playing out the way it appears to be. I work in a technical manufacturing environment and know on a small scale how many internal arguments can occur about how a product should be configured, revised, etc. Admitting to end customers that there was a potential design flaw is a tough thing, and our products are not putting anyone's lives at risk.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:35 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
It's their business, not yours.
This attitude sucks too. The authorities from multiple counties/agencies need to be working cooperatively to get answers as soon as possible. It is everybody's business.


Well yes, but it's their responsibility and decision.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:36 pm

So... since the UK also participates in Airbus, does that mean they cant participate as well in the CVR and FDR decription? Then who has to decript it? Russia? China? :lol:
JetBuddy wrote:
"737 slides off the runway" is the new "Florida man"..

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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:40 pm

Flaps wrote:
So just to be clear....If an Airbus crashes in Panama or Guatemala and those authorities ask that the black boxes be sent to the US for analysis, all of you Euros are going to be good with that? No questions asked? All good with you? No conspiracy theories? Riiiigght.....Got it.

Thus far the only value displayed by this thread is its shear entertainment quality.


Yes, of course I'm alright with that. I'm not a stupid nationalist.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:42 pm

mrbots wrote:
I think everyone is reading too much in to the arguing over where to send the boxes. I believe the location to send the CVR and FDR is just being sensationalized by the news for clicks (like seemingly all news in the US). I can't see it being unprecedented and the NTSB and UK's agency have to work together regularly.

Also, people keep repeating it, but you basically have to discount whatever a person says they saw. I've been involved in an accident investigation with several eye witnesses (not at all related to aircraft though) and the best thing to do in an accident where there is physical data (a crashed plane, data boxes, etc.) is to get their statements and file them, then come back at the end and see if any of them were close. Witnesses generally aren't lying or being deceitful but the human brain just isn't good at comprehending and storing what's happening in unfamiliar situations. From my investigation for example, one witness said they heard a loud bang, another said it was eerily quiet. Even people that overheard someone say what happened over the radio clearly didn't comprehend what they were hearing. Everyone basically reiterated: "(A building) fell down? What do you mean (a building) fell down?"

Its been shown that in a traumatic situation brains process information out of order, based on order of importance not time. Combine that with the fact thatbrains that see something they dont fully understand “make up” the difference, that when things happen at a distance sounds come well after visuals, further distorting the order, and that witnesses often talk to each other before they talk to investigators, and eye-witness accounts arent reliable when trying to sort out timelines.

Sure, Perry Mason and Matlock harp on timelines all the time from witness accounts, but thats TV.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
sandyb123
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Posted on the Manufacturer thread but I thought this was worthy of being posted here...

So Lion Air air owner Rusdi Kirana has gone on record to say that Boeing has tried to cover up the AoA / MCAS system, unfairly blaming Lion's poor maintenance. Interesting statement on a basically brand new aircraft. One of the AoA sensors had just been replaced because of erroneous readings per Boeing's maintenance process. He has publicly accused Boeing of being immoral, cunning and very inappropriate in their actions. Strong words!

He is also claiming that he will if legally possible cancel the remaining order for the 737 MAX, worth $22 billion (I'm assuming this is list price). Bloomberg claiming a total of $57 billion of orders are on the line because of issues with trust in Boeing.

Video with Lion air owner: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... owth-video
Full article about Lion cancelation: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... jet-orders
$57 billion cancelled orders: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

PR hot air or is there some merit in this? Boeing Stock down again 5.7% on early trade Wednesday.

Sandyb123
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JAAlbert
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:49 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Speaking as an American it makes perfect sense to have the boxes read out in the UK. Why waste time shipping across the atlantic? NTSB can observe in the UK like they have done for many other accidents. Not unprecedented at all and I think the WSJ report is overblown and possibly a misinterpretation of what is being said from up above, ie: make sure we have a team available to observe the read out. Though, I also don't find it odd that the NTSB would want to assist/take lead in any investigation either.


I agree, get the data downloaded as soon as possible, which appears to be the UK rather than USA. If NTSB wants further analysis, they can ship the data back to its US labs after the UK has downloaded the information. Given the increasing hysteria and accusations and conspiracies, the investigators need to get some factual information immediately.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:49 pm

pyates2104 wrote:
Unfortunately, this thread appears to have gotten political very quickly... The NTSB itself I believe is beyond reproach and will carry out a thorough, unbiased investigation, the NTSB is one of only a handful of such authorities to be capable of doing so... in my humble opinion. The FAA is responsible for implementing safety regulations So far as I'm aware, we have no direct evidence that the crash was caused by an MCAS failure, we can surmise, probably correctly that the aircraft stalled and the crew failed to recover. Lack of crew training or crew error is probably a contributing factor if not the primary one. Now MCAS is definitely a suspect in the investigation and I'm sure it will be looked at, however even if the MCAS system failed AND the crew was not aware of how it operated, they should still have recovered from the situation by carrying out a runaway trim procedure which I believe is a memory checklist. As highlighted in numerous accidents, there is usually more that one cause for an accident and unfortunately human flight crew error accounts for around 80%. The software update announced by Boeing was meant to further enhance the system and limit the possibility of it CONTRIBUTING to an accident. The lack of experience (notice I don't say hours) of some airliner pilots in dealing with emergencies and actually flying the aircraft is, in my opinion, frightening and has been exaggerated by poor pilot training and certification in some regions.

Bottom line is we don't know yet what caused this accident, there are no proven grounds to ground the fleet (unless more info is available we don't know about) and countries have acted in a cautious way when grounding the type. I'm no Boeing fanboy, but I do feel until we have the facts, we should not rush to judgement.

Is it cautious? It can be disguised as that. China grounding was premature. They had NO facts.

Other groundings are as much to do woth public and political pressure not to be “less safe than China” as anything, and when a safety agency bows to public or political pressure, even if its due to “caution”, to me that is more dangerous. Safety regulators are supposed to be above being influence by outside factors. And it creates a worse scenario where people question the objectivity of the agencies that acted AND the ones that didn’t .
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IADCA
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:49 pm

Flaps wrote:
So just to be clear....If an Airbus crashes in Panama or Guatemala and those authorities ask that the black boxes be sent to the US for analysis, all of you Euros are going to be good with that? No questions asked? All good with you? No conspiracy theories? Riiiigght.....Got it.

Thus far the only value displayed by this thread is its shear entertainment quality.


The black boxes for the KQ A310 crash off Cote d'Ivoire in 2000 were sent to Canada rather than to any European authority. I don't recall anyone complaining then.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:50 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Speaking as an American it makes perfect sense to have the boxes read out in the UK. Why waste time shipping across the atlantic? NTSB can observe in the UK like they have done for many other accidents. Not unprecedented at all and I think the WSJ report is overblown and possibly a misinterpretation of what is being said from up above, ie: make sure we have a team available to observe the read out. Though, I also don't find it odd that the NTSB would want to assist/take lead in any investigation either.


I agree, get the data downloaded as soon as possible, which appears to be the UK rather than USA. If NTSB wants further analysis, they can ship the data back to its US labs after the UK has downloaded the information. Given the increasing hysteria and accusations and conspiracies, the investigators need to get some factual information immediately.

They will get it within seconds of error checking. The interwebs and all that.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:57 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
Posted on the Manufacturer thread but I thought this was worthy of being posted here...

So Lion Air air owner Rusdi Kirana has gone on record to say that Boeing has tried to cover up the AoA / MCAS system, unfairly blaming Lion's poor maintenance. Interesting statement on a basically brand new aircraft. One of the AoA sensors had just been replaced because of erroneous readings per Boeing's maintenance process. He has publicly accused Boeing of being immoral, cunning and very inappropriate in their actions. Strong words!

He is also claiming that he will if legally possible cancel the remaining order for the 737 MAX, worth $22 billion (I'm assuming this is list price). Bloomberg claiming a total of $57 billion of orders are on the line because of issues with trust in Boeing.

Video with Lion air owner: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... owth-video
Full article about Lion cancelation: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... jet-orders
$57 billion cancelled orders: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ium-europe

PR hot air or is there some merit in this? Boeing Stock down again 5.7% on early trade Wednesday.

Sandyb123

Many of us predicted this the minute it was revealed that Lion dispatched an aircraff with critical flight safety repairs without doing any testing.

This was before Boeing had many any statements. It was based on Lion’s history.

Lion would not admit to fault in maintenance or training and blame the manufacturer. “We did everything right.” They would cancel the aircraft.

And that’s what’s happening. They are using the cover of another accident to claim complete innocence despite their own systemic issues.
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ACCS300
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 pm

Very happy with this! Proportionally there's a huge number of MAXs flying in Canada.
 
fd122
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:02 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Very happy with this! Proportionally there's a huge number of MAXs flying in Canada.


While this is the logical thing to do at this point I don't think the US will be happy with that! Just my opinion. Better to be safe than sorry.

With all these countries grounding it do you think they have some insider/preliminary information into these crashes? There was an aviation expert on BBC World Service Radio last night saying some of these countries have gotten some information.
 
mat66
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:21 pm

Reuters on twitter reporting that the black boxes will be sent to Germany.
 
Trin
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:22 pm

fd122 wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:

With all these countries grounding it do you think they have some insider/preliminary information into these crashes? There was an aviation expert on BBC World Service Radio last night saying some of these countries have gotten some information.


Without a doubt. They are more than likely bound by some ridiculous NDA included on page 1,156,354 of their contracts with Boeing to not specify what preliminary information they have received, but without a doubt they have indicated that they are in receipt of additional information and have taken the steps they have because of it.

Again - it is why we have news stories of CAA's grounding MAXs, instead of terror alerts being raise.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm

Curiousflyer wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
Well here is some new news:

"A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected in early January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be. U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks."


Who said that the shutdown did not slow the fix? It seems not everyone thinks the same... blood on Trump's hands!

It is better that those black boxes are sent to the UK, the administration there is not recovering from a shutdown.


Said it before and i'll say it again. Government shutdown did not affect any work on any AD's.

Interestingly, had there not been DER's the shutdown absolutely would have impacted the work. A positive for the DER system imo
 
osiris30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:37 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Curiousflyer wrote:
osiris30 wrote:
Well here is some new news:

"A software fix to the MCAS flight-control feature by the FAA and Boeing had been expected in early January, but discussions between regulators and the plane maker dragged on, partly over differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues, according to people familiar with the details. Officials from various parts of Boeing and the FAA had differing views about how extensive the fix should be. U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks."


Who said that the shutdown did not slow the fix? It seems not everyone thinks the same... blood on Trump's hands!

It is better that those black boxes are sent to the UK, the administration there is not recovering from a shutdown.


Said it before and i'll say it again. Government shutdown did not affect any work on any AD's.

Interestingly, had there not been DER's the shutdown absolutely would have impacted the work. A positive for the DER system imo


The WSJ disagrees with you ... well... at least it disagrees on the outcome. As you said it didn't affect ADs, but it did affect the work that needs to go into getting signoff and having a discussion around ADs and fixes. So directly you are correct, but practically it seems the WSJ has a very different take from their reporting.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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Veigar
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:41 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
Pesky facts shouldn’t matter.


There are no pesky facts in this case. The facts are, indeed, quite simple. Two crashes of a newly-introduced aircraft have occurred in short order, and in similar circumstances -- at takeoff, with experienced pilots reporting flight control issues. You can, of course, disagree with what others conclude on the basis of these facts. Many of us believe it is a reasonable inference that there is design flaw in the aircraft and endorse the grounding on that basis. To be sure, that hypothesis will get tested and refined, which is how the scientific method would work.

#GroundTheMax



200 hours = experienced pilot?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:45 pm

osiris30 wrote:

The WSJ disagrees with you ... well... at least it disagrees on the outcome. As you said it didn't affect ADs, but it did affect the work that needs to go into getting signoff and having a discussion around ADs and fixes. So directly you are correct, but practically it seems the WSJ has a very different take from their reporting.


They're welcome to disagree with me. I disagree with them.

Francoflier wrote:
Where does all this information come from? It does not sound factual to me, especially since the investigation is far from being over. There is no indication, at this stage, that Lionair did not follow the published maintenance procedure, nor are there indications of 'systemic issues' within the airline. Is there something out there we've all missed, or is this the speculative work of a mind set in full defensive mode?



The same could be said in regard to the statements made by Lion Air's CEO and his ponderings of whether or not he would be able to get out of his contracted orders of Max8s.
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:48 pm

IADCA wrote:
Flaps wrote:
So just to be clear....If an Airbus crashes in Panama or Guatemala and those authorities ask that the black boxes be sent to the US for analysis, all of you Euros are going to be good with that? No questions asked? All good with you? No conspiracy theories? Riiiigght.....Got it.

Thus far the only value displayed by this thread is its shear entertainment quality.


The black boxes for the KQ A310 crash off Cote d'Ivoire in 2000 were sent to Canada rather than to any European authority. I don't recall anyone complaining then.

A.net was created 2 years prior that tragic event, not sure all the armachairs experts here or the social media had so much influence at that time!
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HappyKasper
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:50 pm

"The decision was based on new and inconclusive satellite data that suggests similarities between a fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash March 10 and a deadly October accident in Indonesia." - Canadain Transport Minister Marc Garneau


Have we heard anything more about this "satellite data"? I haven't seen any mentions of it on this forum. This could be the next bit of data we're all waiting for.
 
dragon6172
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:59 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
Posted on the Manufacturer thread but I thought this was worthy of being posted here...

So Lion Air air owner Rusdi Kirana has gone on record to say that Boeing has tried to cover up the AoA / MCAS system, unfairly blaming Lion's poor maintenance. Interesting statement on a basically brand new aircraft. One of the AoA sensors had just been replaced because of erroneous readings per Boeing's maintenance process. He has publicly accused Boeing of being immoral, cunning and very inappropriate in their actions. Strong words!


I think it is fair to say that there may have been a maintenance error in the changing of the AoA sensor. Whether that was from poor maintenance at the airline or poor guidance from Boeing maintenance manuals remains to be seen.

For Lion Air there were five flights, including accident flight, with indicating problems on the pilot side. However, the MCAS inputs only happened on the two flights AFTER the AoA sensor was changed. When you read the preliminary reports list of discrepancies you see that the first three flights all reported that the pilot PFD had speed and altitude flags (No speed and altitude shown). On the 4th flight the crew reported an IAS and ALT Disagree after takeoff. This is a different discrepancy, similiar, but different. And on the accident flight it can be surmised that they too had IAS and ALT Disagree indications, because they asked ATC to report their speed and later to report their altitude because "all instruments indicating different altitudes".

So was there a step missed in the change of the AoA sensor? Was the info even included in the AMM?
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WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:06 pm

dragon6172 wrote:
So was there a step missed in the change of the AoA sensor? Was the info even included in the AMM?


MCAS derives its signal from a single sensor at any time. The source is toggled per cycle.
No idea what defines a cycle. engine start run stop | fuselage pressurization up const down | ...
you get the gist.
could very well have been that in all the flights before by some dumb incident or other
MCAS was linked to the good ticker ?
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Francoflier
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:06 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Where does all this information come from? It does not sound factual to me, especially since the investigation is far from being over. There is no indication, at this stage, that Lionair did not follow the published maintenance procedure, nor are there indications of 'systemic issues' within the airline. Is there something out there we've all missed, or is this the speculative work of a mind set in full defensive mode?



The same could be said in regard to the statements made by Lion Air's CEO and his ponderings of whether or not he would be able to get out of his contracted orders of Max8s.



That is true, and in his attempt to get out of his contract with Boeing, his words are equally worthless.
Lawyers and judges, armed with all the facts once the investigation is over, will be the ones arguing and deliberating the case. Probably over a rather long period of time, too.
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ilovelamp
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Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm

Finn350 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
I’ve received word that AA has notified their pilots that ALL US operated MAXes have a dual AoA system for redundancy. The Lion Air CEO has confirmed their delivered MAXes only had a single AoA system. No confirmation on the setup for the Ethiopian jets yet.

Just another piece to the puzzle.


ILL


That is referring to number of cockpit displays only. All 737 MAX have dual AoA sensors and the same MCAS implementation.


APA is saying US MAXes have dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose just like the Lion Air jets. These vanes are compared to each other and if they don’t compare equally the AoA Disagree message is displayed on the PFD. The Lion Air CEO stated they don’t have the system that compares the two vanes. So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.


ILL
Last edited by ilovelamp on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
smokeybandit
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:18 pm

HappyKasper wrote:
"The decision was based on new and inconclusive satellite data that suggests similarities between a fatal Ethiopian Airlines crash March 10 and a deadly October accident in Indonesia." - Canadain Transport Minister Marc Garneau


Have we heard anything more about this "satellite data"? I haven't seen any mentions of it on this forum. This could be the next bit of data we're all waiting for.


I'm curious how satellite data could even give any kind of information that could be used to make such a decision.
 
Jewishist
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Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:20 pm

The situation is extreme. Losses at Boeing are huge, reputation, image, loss, the collapse of stocks. It is necessary to urgently investigate these two crashes and conclusions, refinement, correction of errors. People are afraid to fly these types of aircraft. We hope for a quick solution to these problems and regret what happened.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:20 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
I’ve received word that AA has notified their pilots that ALL US operated MAXes have a dual AoA system for redundancy. The Lion Air CEO has confirmed their delivered MAXes only had a single AoA system. No confirmation on the setup for the Ethiopian jets yet.

Just another piece to the puzzle.


ILL


That is referring to number of cockpit displays only. All 737 MAX have dual AoA sensors and the same MCAS implementation.


APA is saying US MAXes have dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose. These vanes are compared to each other and if they don’t compare equally the AoA Disagree message is displayed on the PFD. The Lion Air CEO stated they don’t have the system that compares the two vanes. So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.


ILL


I know it is confusing but here are the facts:
- every 737 MAX has dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose
- every 737 MAX has an MCAS implementation that uses input of only one of the AoA vanes, alternating side between each flight
- what is an option on the 737 MAX is AoA Disagree messages, but even with this option MCAS implementation is as above; only one of the AoA vanes is used for the MCAS (and even if you have disagreement between different vanes, how do you know which one is correct? That is something Boeing is trying to figure out as a software fix).
 
quentinc
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:23 pm

WIederling wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
So was there a step missed in the change of the AoA sensor? Was the info even included in the AMM?


MCAS derives its signal from a single sensor at any time. The source is toggled per cycle.
No idea what defines a cycle. engine start run stop | fuselage pressurization up const down | ...
you get the gist.
could very well have been that in all the flights before by some dumb incident or other
MCAS was linked to the good ticker ?


Putting aside the question of how a safety system could rely on a single source...... Why on earth choose to change it? Surely all this does is make eventual fault diagnosis harder? If things fail, generally its better have them stay failed, until someone does something definite to fix it. If the crew had a switch to toggle, then sure... getting better.
 
rideforever
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:06 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:25 pm

[*]
ilovelamp wrote:
APA is saying US MAXes have dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose just like the Lion Air jets. These vanes are compared to each other and if they don’t compare equally the AoA Disagree message

There is no redundancy with 2 vanes. The only information you get is that they disagree. That's not very helpful. If you have 3 or 4 then you know which ones to use, which to disable and the whole set replaced on the ground. On the hull the fixings could hold dual vanes (of different types), so you have 4. What's the cost : $150 per unit ?
As an engineer I find it highly unintelligent to have only 2, or to use the minimum possible no for mission critical data, with very limited "redundancy".
From memory there are other AoA vanes on the rear of the aircraft used for other purposes. Therefore there are other AoA instruments on the aircraft, not used by either the automated systems, nor by the pilots.
Again wilfully unintelligent.
There is also the possibility of generating an approximate AoA from other instruments. so you have a large volume of data available .... that nobody thinks to use.
Last edited by rideforever on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:26 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
HappyKasper wrote:

Have we heard anything more about this "satellite data"? I haven't seen any mentions of it on this forum. This could be the next bit of data we're all waiting for.


I'm curious how satellite data could even give any kind of information that could be used to make such a decision.


It can't. Public pressure.


I wonder if they have satellite based ADS-B data for the whole flight and not just the first 3 minutes?

https://aireon.com/resources/overview-m ... ust-ads-b/
Last edited by Finn350 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:27 pm

Finn350 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Finn350 wrote:

That is referring to number of cockpit displays only. All 737 MAX have dual AoA sensors and the same MCAS implementation.


APA is saying US MAXes have dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose. These vanes are compared to each other and if they don’t compare equally the AoA Disagree message is displayed on the PFD. The Lion Air CEO stated they don’t have the system that compares the two vanes. So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.


ILL


I know it is confusing but here are the facts:
- every 737 MAX has dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose
- every 737 MAX has an MCAS implementation that uses input of only one of the AoA vanes, alternating side between each flight
- what is an option on the 737 MAX is AoA Disagree messages, but even with this option MCAS implementation is as above; only one of the AoA vanes is used for the MCAS (and even if you have disagreement between different vanes, how do you know which one is correct? That is something Boeing is trying to figure out as a software fix).


So you are agreeing with I’m saying and I am not confused. The APA is telling their pilots the Lion Air CEO is publicly stating they didn’t have the disagree message option. I can’t share the APA email but that’s what they are saying.


ILL
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:31 pm

ilovelamp wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:

APA is saying US MAXes have dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose. These vanes are compared to each other and if they don’t compare equally the AoA Disagree message is displayed on the PFD. The Lion Air CEO stated they don’t have the system that compares the two vanes. So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.


ILL


I know it is confusing but here are the facts:
- every 737 MAX has dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose
- every 737 MAX has an MCAS implementation that uses input of only one of the AoA vanes, alternating side between each flight
- what is an option on the 737 MAX is AoA Disagree messages, but even with this option MCAS implementation is as above; only one of the AoA vanes is used for the MCAS (and even if you have disagreement between different vanes, how do you know which one is correct? That is something Boeing is trying to figure out as a software fix).


So you are agreeing with I’m saying and I am not confused. The APA is telling their pilots the Lion Air CEO is publicly stating they didn’t have the disagree message option. I can’t share the APA email but that’s what they are saying.


ILL


I don’t agree with you regarding “So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.” as if US operators’ MCAS had two data streams to work with.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:39 pm

Finn350 wrote:
ilovelamp wrote:
Finn350 wrote:

I know it is confusing but here are the facts:
- every 737 MAX has dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose
- every 737 MAX has an MCAS implementation that uses input of only one of the AoA vanes, alternating side between each flight
- what is an option on the 737 MAX is AoA Disagree messages, but even with this option MCAS implementation is as above; only one of the AoA vanes is used for the MCAS (and even if you have disagreement between different vanes, how do you know which one is correct? That is something Boeing is trying to figure out as a software fix).


So you are agreeing with I’m saying and I am not confused. The APA is telling their pilots the Lion Air CEO is publicly stating they didn’t have the disagree message option. I can’t share the APA email but that’s what they are saying.


ILL


I don’t agree with you regarding “So, in their case, MCAS only had one stream of data to work with essentially.” as if US operators’ MCAS had two data streams to work with.


And if you are referring to an e-mail similar to this statement
https://www.alliedpilots.org/News/ID/67 ... ng-737-Max

The flying public should also be aware that American Airlines’ Boeing 737 Max planes are unique. After the loss of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing disclosed that the MCAS can be triggered by a single erroneous Angle of Attack (AOA) event. The two dozen 737 Max aircraft in the American Airlines fleet are the only ones equipped with two AOA displays, one for each pilot, providing an extra layer of awareness and warning.


The above snippet is factually correct but constructed to be misleading. Even with two AoA displays, MCAS can be triggered by a single erroneous AoA event.
 
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remcor
Posts: 366
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:45 pm

Finn350 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
smokeybandit wrote:
I'm curious how satellite data could even give any kind of information that could be used to make such a decision.

It can't. Public pressure.

I wonder if they have satellite based ADS-B data for the whole flight and not just the first 3 minutes?
https://aireon.com/resources/overview-m ... ust-ads-b/


That's what I'm thinking too... read this:
"Aireon's system, which is still undergoing operational testing, receives aircraft position data through a special receiver mounted on each of Iridium’s newly launched network of satellites. In addition to basic position data like the aircraft ID and it’s altitude and speed, Aireon system tracks 18 other parameters on all subscribing aircraft. A strategic advantage to all parties using the Aireon/FlightAware system is that it does not require any new, expensive equipment to be installed onboard an airplane. Aireon and FlightAware operate the new partnership, called GlobalBeacon, with a technology called Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcast, or ADS-B, that is already installed on thousands of aircraft around the world."

link:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rmark/2019 ... 14614d2c7b
Last edited by remcor on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Latest request for the FDR/CVR examination is to send them to Germany, not the UK.

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - The black boxes from a Boeing 737 MAX 8 plane that crashed in Ethiopia on Sunday, killing 157 people, will be sent to Germany for analysis, an Ethiopian Airlines spokesman said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QU29F

Both country's agencies should be more than capable to do so in a professional manner.
 
ac888yow
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:29 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 pm

Etheereal wrote:
Im just gonna copy this since its so true.

The FAA is a gold standard for aviation safety because they act on facts, not public opinion. They issued the type certificate for this aircraft and have an obligation to investigate thoroughly, because as the issuer of the TC, their decision impacts every one of these aircraft everywhere. You can be confident that FAA, NTSB have been looking very closely at Lion Air for months and know a lot more than anyone else about the causes of the accident. Responsible public authorities try to calm public hysteria not feed it
We couldn't disagree more.

Anonymously signed,

Everyone working in the international community of authorities and many in the FAA itself.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1535
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:47 pm

With all this talk about MCAS, isn't it actually worse if it were a mechanical failure unrelated?
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3795
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:50 pm

Etheereal wrote:
So they concluded something from inconclusive Sat Data? Okay..


Satellite data is not being used to come to binding conclusions about the crash, but to conduct a risk assessment based on incomplete information. Apparently for those assessing the risk that piece of information has tipped the iceberg. Maybe the additional information will not prove anything in the end, but we are currently talking about risk assessment exercises, not preliminary accident reports.

Etheereal wrote:
So... since the UK also participates in Airbus, does that mean they cant participate as well in the CVR and FDR decription? Then who has to decript it? Russia? China? :lol:


The whole point of the discussion was that the US apparently sees fit to put in question the decision of a sovereign nation who that sovereign nation asks, for whatever reason, to conduct the investigation/analyse the black boxes on its behalf.
 
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atcsundevil
Moderator
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 pm

This is just a reminder to users to please ensure you are posting in the correct thread. This thread is about the Ethiopian crash. Separate threads exist for the 737MAX grounding, and for discussion on the Lion Air crash last October. Please post to the appropriate thread.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
zuckie13
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:00 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Latest request for the FDR/CVR examination is to send them to Germany, not the UK.

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - The black boxes from a Boeing 737 MAX 8 plane that crashed in Ethiopia on Sunday, killing 157 people, will be sent to Germany for analysis, an Ethiopian Airlines spokesman said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QU29F

Both country's agencies should be more than capable to do so in a professional manner.


For crying out loud. Stop with the politics. Get the bleeping boxes to whoever can read them NOW. These things should have been in a lab yesterday.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:06 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Latest request for the FDR/CVR examination is to send them to Germany, not the UK.

ADDIS ABABA (Reuters) - The black boxes from a Boeing 737 MAX 8 plane that crashed in Ethiopia on Sunday, killing 157 people, will be sent to Germany for analysis, an Ethiopian Airlines spokesman said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QU29F

Both country's agencies should be more than capable to do so in a professional manner.


For crying out loud. Stop with the politics. Get the bleeping boxes to whoever can read them NOW. These things should have been in a lab yesterday.

Well, it's only a small fleet that has been grounded. A day or two won't make a difference. I'd rather have a reliable investigation than some quick but unreliable results. ET seems to agree.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2662
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Cant believe it’s taken this long to get the boxes somewhere to be analyzed. Get the job done already
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
So was there a step missed in the change of the AoA sensor? Was the info even included in the AMM?


MCAS derives its signal from a single sensor at any time. The source is toggled per cycle.
No idea what defines a cycle. engine start run stop | fuselage pressurization up const down | ...
you get the gist.
could very well have been that in all the flights before by some dumb incident or other
MCAS was linked to the good ticker ?

MCAS gets its signal from the master FCC. The master FCC is set by whichever flight director is turned on first. Typically the pilot flying turns their FD on first. The master FCC only alternates if the pilot flying alternates each leg.
Phrogs Phorever
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:21 pm

Germany apparently refused the recorders because of a lack of the proper equipment/software to analyze them?
 
Passions
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:29 pm

Finn350 wrote:
I know it is confusing but here are the facts:
- every 737 MAX has dual, independent AoA vanes, one on each side of the nose
- every 737 MAX has an MCAS implementation that uses input of only one of the AoA vanes, alternating side between each flight
- what is an option on the 737 MAX is AoA Disagree messages, but even with this option MCAS implementation is as above; only one of the AoA vanes is used for the MCAS (and even if you have disagreement between different vanes, how do you know which one is correct? That is something Boeing is trying to figure out as a software fix).


It's just incredible to read this. How any modern airliner would allow a system to tilt an aircraft based off 1 sensor. The A320 seems like a superior design where 2 out of 3 sensors must match. That seems logical and safe. I know the NGs have the same design but NGs didn't have MCAS. This is horrifying.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 910
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:31 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
Germany apparently refused the recorders because of a lack of the proper equipment/software to analyze them?


You would think there is some sense of urgency to figure out what caused this airplane to crash. Why would anyone send the boxes to a random (in this case) location that doesn't have the equipment to analyze the contents is beyond me. These boxes were retrieved very quickly after the accident and all these delays are ridiculous.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.

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