hivue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:07 am

flybucky wrote:
However, I believe the radar altitude is new information


I believe information from the airplane's radar altimeter would have to come from the FDR. No data from that has been released yet.

BTW, it's AMSL not ASML.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:08 am

Did anyone hear actually read the TCDS for the 737-8 and read the amendments used to certify stall characteristics and stability and control characteristics? It’s not 1967, they’re from the 1997-2005 time frame.


GF
 
hivue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:11 am

Trin wrote:
In either of the Lion Air or Ethiopian incident cases, removing MCAS from the equation would result in a completely recoverable flight with no loss of life, regardless of whatever else is wrong with the equipment.


Nowhere near enough information about the ET crash has been released to warrant that conclusion.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:17 am

Trin wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
1010101 wrote:
MCAS does not seem to be the root problem. There is something wrong in the AoA sensor path that is causing unreliable readings. This is potentially leading to faulty MCAS operation, but also unteliable air speed and additional control column forced due to the yoke feel system. And some of the anecdotal reports are problems in configurations where MCAS would be inhibited. So I think MCAS alone is just a red herring. Clearly unchecked it can make a bad situation worse.

Agree, but the AoA sensor, while the initial issue, isn't what drives it into the ground. The MCAS does.


Completely agree. In either of the Lion Air or Ethiopian incident cases, removing MCAS from the equation would result in a completely recoverable flight with no loss of life, regardless of whatever else is wrong with the equipment.

And you just figured it out without data.
LOL
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:00 am

sadiqutp wrote:
There is a new article in reuters with few new details about the last moments of the doomed aircraft ..

After one or two minutes, the voice on the air traffic control recording requested to remain on the same path as the runway and to climb to 14,000 feet, the source said.
The aircraft’s ground speed after departure was unusually high, the Reuters source said, reaching around 400 knots (460 miles per hour) rather than the 200 to 250 knots that is more typical minutes after departure.

..
After starting the turn, the plane disappeared from radar at an altitude of 10,800 feet above sea level, the highest it reached during the six-minute flight. Addis Ababa’s runway is at a high elevation of around 7,600 feet, suggesting the doomed jet made it about 3,000 feet into the sky.

...


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethio ... KKCN1QX0MT


Thanks for the link! Investigators probably leaked altitude information based on the ADS-B satellite data to end speculation the plane reaching only 1,000 ft above ground level based on the partial FR24 ADS-B data.
 
djm18
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:11 am

One crazy theory is that the fo who had limited experience panicked and fearing mcas trimed the aircraft in the opposite direction, that is to a nose down attitude. If i remember correctly the fo in the af 447 flight also had relatively little experience and kept pulling up on the joystick.
 
Interested
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:16 am

djm18 wrote:
One crazy theory is that the fo who had limited experience panicked and fearing mcas trimed the aircraft in the opposite direction, that is to a nose down attitude. If i remember correctly the fo in the af 447 flight also had relatively little experience and kept pulling up on the joystick.


I may have read other posts incorrectly but isn't pulling up on the joystick what you would do in the same situation on non Max planes?
 
ikramerica
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:26 am

Interested wrote:
djm18 wrote:
One crazy theory is that the fo who had limited experience panicked and fearing mcas trimed the aircraft in the opposite direction, that is to a nose down attitude. If i remember correctly the fo in the af 447 flight also had relatively little experience and kept pulling up on the joystick.


I may have read other posts incorrectly but isn't pulling up on the joystick what you would do in the same situation on non Max planes?

Not if you are already stalling from high AoA like on AF crash.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
flybucky
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:50 am

hivue wrote:
I believe information from the airplane's radar altimeter would have to come from the FDR. No data from that has been released yet.

I interpreted the statement ("After starting the turn, the plane disappeared from radar at an altitude of 10,800 feet above sea level, the highest it reached during the six-minute flight") to be referring to the airport's radar, not the plane's radar altimeter. Especially since the context of the article was from a person that had listened to the air traffic control recording. I'm guessing it's the altitude reported by the plane's transponder, which should be the pressure altitude, I believe.

BTW, it's AMSL not ASML.

Doh, thanks for the correction.
 
Pluto707
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:08 am

85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:13 am

Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...


Lay off the bourbon or whatever you are smoking. Power is not the issue.
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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qf789
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:25 am

Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...


Do you have anything to back that up with?
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flipdewaf
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 am

I realise the MCAS is a new system on the max but are the AOA probes brought forward from the NG or are they a new addition too?

Fred


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Jouhou
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:38 am

Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...


The aircraft is noted to having been at an abnormal speed, they had "power" but not the ability to direct it so the aircraft was going in the correct upwards direction. Everyone here is discussing an issue with control, which MCAS is a known existing issue in this realm.
 
PcarSBA
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:39 am

Long-time lurker, first post so please be gentle....(and yes, I read and tried to understand every post in this thread)

Please let me know if my understanding is correct: MCAS is a synonym for a function new with the MAX where the electric motors act on the horizontal stabilizer in a specific condition: AP disengaged, clean config, high AOA detected by ADIRU. Many seem to conclude this being the root cause for this accident.

Here is my question/observation: I’d expect there are many other conditions (e.g. AP engaged during climb, flaps not up) that equally act on the horizontal stabilizers and elevators if the ADIRU correctly (or incorrectly) determines a high AOA or imminent stall condition. So I’m wondering if the focus on MCAS isn’t a bit premature even in light of having found the stabilizer in a position that resulted in nose-down pitch. It sounds like the horizontal stabilizer was moved to this position and it is unlikely IMHO the PIC did this manually by spinning the wheel so it was done by the motors.

Does the ADIRU always only evaluate one of the two AOA sensors for deciding when to intervene?

Is the ADIRU for the MAX a new design or generic to several models with just new code?

Could it be a bad ADIRU (by design or unique to this box) that wasn’t diagnosed quickly enough (executing the runaway trim procedure)?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:42 am

flipdewaf wrote:
I realise the MCAS is a new system on the max but are the AOA probes brought forward from the NG or are they a new addition too?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only piece of information I know on the AoA devices is that they are provided by United Technologies (Collins Aerospace now?), for the investors out there.
 
Pluto707
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:00 am

qf789 wrote:
Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...


Do you have anything to back that up with?
No prob, i take back my suggestion on the power subject, not power related at all, according to most people here, as i can read, the high speed is one of the factors that counteract this, but somewhere else i can see that MCAS is disabled at high speed, bringing us back to....page 1, 2, etc...
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:21 am

Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...

Observed high/over speed would indicate that engine power was sufficient
but the crew was unable to convert that into climb by taking the nose up.
( "sabotaged" by MCAS action )
Murphy is an optimist
 
PcarSBA
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:10 am

When do we realistically expect the first hard data from the CVR or FDR? This coming week?
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobip

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:31 am

Heinkel wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Wasn't Airbus that trained Lion Air btw? Unless I am confusing something here.


How can Airbus train Lion Air crew to fly Boeing aircraft?

error or misremembered: not directly Airbus, no idea how CAE ownership works:
http://www.lionair.co.id/lion-experienc ... nal-growth
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:48 am

Pluto707 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Pluto707 wrote:
85% of persons on this thread is convinced that MCAS took part in these accidents, however MCAS is not the main reason. It gave the final blow, but the main reason is; according to me, the lack of climbing power. And on this subject i do not see many posts...


Do you have anything to back that up with?
No prob, i take back my suggestion on the power subject, not power related at all, according to most people here, as i can read, the high speed is one of the factors that counteract this, but somewhere else i can see that MCAS is disabled at high speed, bringing us back to....page 1, 2, etc...

Unfortunately you have followed up your earlier nonsense with something that isn't much better.

"somewhere else i can see that...." - I will ask the question that is on everyone's lips; where did you see that?

This will yield one of two results; either you will be unable to find anybody who has actually said that.
Or you will bring something new to the discussion that give us all cause to re-evaluate.
Go for it! :D
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
KingOrGod
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:53 am

PcarSBA wrote:
When do we realistically expect the first hard data from the CVR or FDR? This coming week?


Anywhere up to when the preliminary report comes out. Whether it gets officially published prior to the prelim report, is up to Ethiopia.

Or it may get 'leaked'...
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:58 am

ikramerica wrote:
Not if you are already stalling from high AoA like on AF crash.


Noteworthy that the pilot pulled up the plane in the interval of "pitot absence"
for quite a bit bleeding of speed and ending in a low forward velocity stall.
A half assed Immelmann turn.
Murphy is an optimist
 
musicrab
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:12 am

PcarSBA wrote:
When do we realistically expect the first hard data from the CVR or FDR? This coming week?

CVR data has been downloaded and passed to lead investigating team
https://twitter.com/BEA_Aero/status/1107002307542159361

FDR work continues Sunday.
 
osiris30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:17 am

flybucky wrote:
But the nose of the airplane apparently lifted off the ground below 90knots on the takeoff roll.


BHM wrote:
Where did this information come from?


The FR24 data showed that at 93 knots, 23 seconds and ~1900 ft (~15% down the runway) after takeoff roll, the aircraft was "airborne". Vertical speed was +128 ft/min (vspeed resolution is 64 ft/min).

The question is whether the plane was truly airborne or not. I had discounted it because the runway elevation profile does rise in the middle, causing the altitude to rise. Others said that the ADS-B airborne/ground data comes from a sensor in the nose gear, which could have been triggered if the nose gear was light enough, even without the plane actually lifting off.

That brings another question though. If it came from the nose gear sensor was just a temporary lightening of the nose gear (due to runway profile, bump, etc), shouldn't it have went back to Ground later in the takeoff roll?


Unless that is when the pilots started to rotate due to bad airspeed indications. You can rotate the nose at 90kts in a 737 iirc. You won't get off the ground but the nose can lift off.

They then stayed stuck down for a while (till 160kts) which is another weird number.
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osiris30
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:18 am

musicrab wrote:
PcarSBA wrote:
When do we realistically expect the first hard data from the CVR or FDR? This coming week?

CVR data has been downloaded and passed to lead investigating team
https://twitter.com/BEA_Aero/status/1107002307542159361

FDR work continues Sunday.

Hopefully we get some answers soon then.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:01 pm

Trin wrote:
I do agree that the AOA sensor issue is starting to look more like something downstream of the actual vane itself. Which would also explain why Lion Air was repeatedly unable to rectify the issue despite replacing it in between flights.


Yes. Nobody have yet come up with a plausible technical scenario that fully fit the JT10 official public data (disagree before and after AOA replacement). Many here have searched, and the possibility that the problem was in the ADIRU or FCC was raised since months, but lack of public information about it makes hard to refine this scenario. The best description I have found yet of the FCC internals is still this one:

https://www.satcom.guru/2018/11/737-fcc ... mmand.html

If someone have spot something better, please post it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:11 pm

osiris30 wrote:
They then stayed stuck down for a while (till 160kts) which is another weird number.


the FR24 heuristics see a positive elevation change as "taking off". sitting on the ground at any elevation is shown as ZERO ft.
( After heuristically indicated take off plotted height data is morphed from ZERO to reported height.)
The runway in Addis Abeba has a hunch back.
Only the logged raw data received from the aircraft is really useful for interpretation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:48 pm

osiris30 wrote:
flybucky wrote:
The question is whether the plane was truly airborne or not. I had discounted it because the runway elevation profile does rise in the middle, causing the altitude to rise. Others said that the ADS-B airborne/ground data comes from a sensor in the nose gear, which could have been triggered if the nose gear was light enough, even without the plane actually lifting off.

That brings another question though. If it came from the nose gear sensor was just a temporary lightening of the nose gear (due to runway profile, bump, etc), shouldn't it have went back to Ground later in the takeoff roll?


Unless that is when the pilots started to rotate due to bad airspeed indications. You can rotate the nose at 90kts in a 737 iirc. You won't get off the ground but the nose can lift off.

They then stayed stuck down for a while (till 160kts) which is another weird number.

1) Are there sensors in both the nose gear, and MLG?
Perhaps FR24 (& others) define take-off using nose gear lift, whilst landing is defined as MLG impact.

After the de Havilland Comet suffered it's initial crashes (during take-off), pilots were advised to lift the nosewheel at a certain speed, but then place it back down gently on to the runway whilst further speed was built up. (I'm speaking from memory - E&OE)

2) If the pilots on ET302 lifted the nose at 93kts (whilst a different or erratic figure was displayed on their instruments) and at that point suddenly discovered the aircraft wasn't ready to fly, what would a sensible pilot do? Some might abort. Others might wonder if they had already exceeded V1.
These pilots elected to continue, and carried on until they reached 160 kts, except presumably they were either still receiving erratic or false data, or they were given 160kts but didn't necessarily trust it 100%.
In that respect, the lift off at 160kts is something we know with hindsight, but we cannot guarantee the pilots had access to that same data.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:45 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Perhaps FR24 (& others) define take-off using nose gear lift, whilst landing is defined as MLG impact.


All the airplane tracing platforms rely on ACARS messages. They know nothing beyond what is in those messages.
FR24 employs some heuristics to show things like lift off and height and such.
lift off seems to be linked to some marginal increase in height reported. A hunchback runway may well indicate lift off in the middle due the gradient. Other heuristics fix the move from 0ft shown on ground at any local elevation to height shown while flying.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Np2019
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:59 pm

I am not a pilot nor a fo but an avid enthusiastic flyer. Do any of the old school pilots and captains think technology in aircrafts has gotten to complicated to the point were they feel out of place in the cockpit nowadays? I'm 40 and remember those long 10hr plus transatlantic flights with family in the 1990s on a 747. It seemed like the entire flight was 100% controlled by the captain and fo skill set. As a passenger it seemed like in the 1990s pilots had to do all the flight calculations and actually controlled the aircraft by hand now it seems like computer chips and sensors have taken over the cockpit and the pilots just over see them. Makes me wonder if a pilot in the 1990s can fly a current 2019 aircraft versus a current pilot flying an aircraft from the 1990s.
 
ciaran
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:03 pm

 
FlyHappy
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:13 pm

Np2019 wrote:
I am not a pilot nor a fo but an avid enthusiastic flyer. Do any of the old school pilots and captains think technology in aircrafts has gotten to complicated to the point were they feel out of place in the cockpit nowadays? I'm 40 and remember those long 10hr plus transatlantic flights with family in the 1990s on a 747. It seemed like the entire flight was 100% controlled by the captain and fo skill set. As a passenger it seemed like in the 1990s pilots had to do all the flight calculations and actually controlled the aircraft by hand now it seems like computer chips and sensors have taken over the cockpit and the pilots just over see them. Makes me wonder if a pilot in the 1990s can fly a current 2019 aircraft versus a current pilot flying an aircraft from the 1990s.


funny. your 1990's 747 TATL flights were most certainly not 100% controlled by the pilot's "skill set" (whatever that means).
how exactly did you get that impression anyways? you weren't flying in the jumpseat were you? Was it due to high volume of announcements from the cockpit?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:16 pm

ciaran wrote:


I would characterise it as "shocking" rather than interesting.

After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash, Boeing for the first time provided to airlines details about MCAS. Boeing’s bulletin to the airlines stated that the limit of MCAS’s command was 2.5 degrees.

That number was new to FAA engineers who had seen 0.6 degrees in the safety assessment.

“The FAA believed the airplane was designed to the 0.6 limit, and that’s what the foreign regulatory authorities thought, too,” said an FAA engineer. “It makes a difference in your assessment of the hazard involved.”
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PixelFlight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:20 pm

ciaran wrote:


Thanks. Key points:

The safety analysis:

* Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.

* Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

* Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.


Many here have expected a possible problem in the safety assessment activity. Now there is some hints.
 
kalvado
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:20 pm

ciaran wrote:

Now taking bets if MAX will be ungrounded in 2019.... If there was effectively no certification, then they need to do that anew...
 
Pluto707
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:26 pm

Sorry specialists, thought MCAS was also speed related, my mistake, no need for pejorative reactions
 
mm320cap
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:30 pm

Np2019 wrote:
I am not a pilot nor a fo but an avid enthusiastic flyer. Do any of the old school pilots and captains think technology in aircrafts has gotten to complicated to the point were they feel out of place in the cockpit nowadays? I'm 40 and remember those long 10hr plus transatlantic flights with family in the 1990s on a 747. It seemed like the entire flight was 100% controlled by the captain and fo skill set. As a passenger it seemed like in the 1990s pilots had to do all the flight calculations and actually controlled the aircraft by hand now it seems like computer chips and sensors have taken over the cockpit and the pilots just over see them. Makes me wonder if a pilot in the 1990s can fly a current 2019 aircraft versus a current pilot flying an aircraft from the 1990s.


Absolutely not. Flying, and airplanes, are WAY safer than they were in the 1990’s. The technology is a substantial part of that. TCAS, EGPWS, Enhanced windsheer. I’ve now flown 3 generations of 737’s. The technology in the MAX is a real boon to safety. There is clearly something happening software integration wise, but the airplane has an huge amount of information to give the pilot SA. (Profile view showing terrain is AWESOME). There was a 767 crash a few weeks ago. 1980’s airplane.

This theory of Donald Trump’s is ascinine. Just because he owns a plane doesn’t mean he understands anything about flying them.
 
mm320cap
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:35 pm

MCAS MCAS MCAS.

Several reports from US Pilots are out where there was an uncommanded nose pitch movement. Autopilot was clicked off and the flight was quickly recovered. So this is being touted as evidence of how dangerous the MCAS is. In these flights, there was no faulty airspeed or AOA indications (as far as the pilots could tell... at least it wasn’t reported). AND.... the autopilot was engaged when the pitch moment occurred. Which means the MCAS system was inhibited.

So before we all just assume the MCAS was THE problem here, let’s just wait and see what the data shows. Was this accident an MCAS event? Possibly. But it appears there are other potential issues out there.
 
9Patch
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
ciaran wrote:


I would characterise it as "shocking" rather than interesting.

After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash, Boeing for the first time provided to airlines details about MCAS. Boeing’s bulletin to the airlines stated that the limit of MCAS’s command was 2.5 degrees.

That number was new to FAA engineers who had seen 0.6 degrees in the safety assessment.

“The FAA believed the airplane was designed to the 0.6 limit, and that’s what the foreign regulatory authorities thought, too,” said an FAA engineer. “It makes a difference in your assessment of the hazard involved.”


AND this:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:41 pm

mm320cap wrote:
The technology in the MAX is a real boon to safety. There is clearly something happening software integration wise, but the airplane has an huge amount of information to give the pilot SA.


you are talking about sugar coating.

At issue here is the basic airframe and how the designers coped with a major change in raw airframe behavior.
MCAS was not added for pilots feeling cosy and at home
it was added because the changed raw pitch up behavior is not certifiable.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
Posts: 8888
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:44 pm

external link given: wrote:


Dominic Gates at his objective reporting best. again. The guy has my full respect.
Murphy is an optimist
 
PcarSBA
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:08 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:51 pm

mm320cap wrote:
MCAS MCAS MCAS.

Several reports from US Pilots are out where there was an uncommanded nose pitch movement. Autopilot was clicked off and the flight was quickly recovered. So this is being touted as evidence of how dangerous the MCAS is. In these flights, there was no faulty airspeed or AOA indications (as far as the pilots could tell... at least it wasn’t reported). AND.... the autopilot was engaged when the pitch moment occurred. Which means the MCAS system was inhibited.

So before we all just assume the MCAS was THE problem here, let’s just wait and see what the data shows. Was this accident an MCAS event? Possibly. But it appears there are other potential issues out there.


That’s sounds plausible: false data (AOA, IAS) or data processing downstream lead to stabilizer runaway.

How often does this happen (AP turning itself off, crew has to react)? 1 in 100 cycles, more often, almost never?

I guess what I’m asking is: is it a fairly common event that an internal data integrity check error or similar triggers this and pilots react properly or is it something most only encounter and train for in the simulator?
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:53 pm

Can anyone tell me the altitude the plane reached before crashing?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6589
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:55 pm

Wiederling wrote:
the FR24 heuristics see a positive elevation change as "taking off". sitting on the ground at any elevation is shown as ZERO ft.
( After heuristically indicated take off plotted height data is morphed from ZERO to reported height.)

ADS-B has ground/air mode information being sent.
The question I have is, why did it switch from ground mode to air mode so early in the take off?

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1) Are there sensors in both the nose gear, and MLG?
Perhaps FR24 (& others) define take-off using nose gear lift, whilst landing is defined as MLG impact.

It's usually at the MLG... I've seen live ADS-B with the airplanes in front of me... if your MLG has enough weight on it, it'll show "ground" on the Air/Ground bit of the ADS-B data transmissions...

Once it goes on ground mode, it stops transmitting altitude and just transmit "0ft".

Am not talking about FR24, but raw ADS-B.

I want to put my ADS-B receiver to see whether this phenomenon is common in ADD...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:02 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
Can anyone tell me the altitude the plane reached before crashing?

It reached 10,800 feet at some point, not necessarily immediately before crashing.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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sassiciai
Posts: 1091
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:13 pm

In a different thread, a certain poster Boof02671 wrote
"AA is guesstimating the Max’s back in the air on the 26th.

Per Jon NYC Jon Ostower"

IMHO, he is lucky that he left the date as "26th". Leaving out month and year might be a great help to him later

The utter arrogance of anyone claiming after these 2 accidents that the "solution" will be ready in a few days (it was quoted as "in 10 days time" a few days ago, even before the Etheopean crash) and the implicit belief that the world will be happy to resume ops with this plane with the "new software installed" is quite shocking, and actually troubling!

Given that it all looks like some amateur lash-up that was never properly tested, and approved by its authors as certification for an unstable aircraft, I would expect that every regulator and his dog will want to give this a real deep certification review. Actually, there are bits of this that just don't even justify reviewing, but requiring the whole endevour to go off and look at everything again. I would certainly hope that the FAA treats this next certification properly, and that the other regulators around the world hold the FAA to that!

Grandfathering! I wonder what my grandfathers would have to say to the CEO of Boeing and the (acting) Head of the FAA. It would not be reproducible here!

This grandfathering practice should now be stopped, or defined with an EXTREMELY NARROW scope!

So, here's to the 26th!
Last edited by sassiciai on Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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airkas1
Head Screener
Posts: 7884
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:13 pm

03/10 accident to the #Boeing737Max @BoeingAirplanes @flyethiopian / Data from the FDR has been successfully downloaded by @BEA_Aero and transfered to the Ethiopian investigation team / communication on their behalf

https://twitter.com/bea_aero/status/110 ... 77984?s=21
 
ikramerica
Posts: 14900
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:14 pm

mm320cap wrote:
MCAS MCAS MCAS.

Several reports from US Pilots are out where there was an uncommanded nose pitch movement. Autopilot was clicked off and the flight was quickly recovered. So this is being touted as evidence of how dangerous the MCAS is. In these flights, there was no faulty airspeed or AOA indications (as far as the pilots could tell... at least it wasn’t reported). AND.... the autopilot was engaged when the pitch moment occurred. Which means the MCAS system was inhibited.

So before we all just assume the MCAS was THE problem here, let’s just wait and see what the data shows. Was this accident an MCAS event? Possibly. But it appears there are other potential issues out there.

Wonder how many reports there are of uncommanded nose pitch on the NG, which has an autotrim system. The A320. Every other type?

I've read reports of major uncommanded dives taking place on the NG, which could indicate its not a MAX issue but a dangerous NG issue made worse on the MAX.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jasonelantra
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:47 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:14 pm

French BEA just said FDR data was downloaded and forwarded to Ethiopians.

https://twitter.com/BEA_Aero/status/1107292544868777984

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