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xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:40 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
What is the definition of “flaw”? I stated there were some implementation issues with MCAS and some questionable design decisions. I cannot go so far as to say a flaw. I cut my teeth flying checks all night in MU2s. Would you argue that’s a “flawed”design? What about the MD11. I’ve personally never piloted one but spent a ton of time jumpseating for my “regular drive to work” on MD11s when my company used to operate them. I don’t consider these flaws or flawed aircraft. I consider both advanced aircraft requiring solid and maybe in today’s world above average piloting skills.


I said this before and I am going to repeat it: don't try to defend boeing so hard, it may make life miserable for them. 737MAX "requiring above average piloting skills" literally means that, if we consider piloting skills to be distributed according to Gaussian, that HALF OF THE 737 PILOTS ON THE WORLD ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO FLY IT!

Are you even aware what are you implying? That Boeing built an airplane only american pilots can fly safely? Do you really think that? In that case Boeing is really on the path towards bankruptcy, because no sane Asian or African (and Eastern European) airline will consider 737 MAX purchase!

And other of your claims are ridiculous as well. What about the following scenario:

Lion Air pilots followed ALL the procedures they had and they crashed.
Lion Air on previous flight did not crash only bc it had 3rd pilot in the cockpit, who had the liberty to brainstorm and read manuals because in 2 man cockpit he literary had no other task. Talk about insane workload to prevent MCAS crashing the plane.
Ethiopian pilots did all the things according to checklist. The overspeed had been a consequence of IAS warning checklist. They were flying 1000ft above terrain so no action that includes "release the column to pitch down briefly" was feasible. And, in addition to that, manual trim was impossible, so they finished the MCAS checklist and did not achieve anything.

At that moment they decided to improvise. Just as the 3rd pilot improvised on the non-fatal Lion Air crash. But they did not make it.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:53 pm

SimonL wrote:
I would say that there are, based on previous posts, indication that both the Electrical an mechanical trim could become hard to operate within the flight envelope. EASA had concerns about the electrical trim at higher speeds and we also know that the manual trim can be hard to use. There are most likely no hard boundary where the trims stop working so its hard to say exactly at what speed it happens. I also guess that noone have really tried to find out..


The problem I have with that:

A) Those are also speculative assumptions.

B) Based on the log they were already at or near VMO when the first mention of "manual" trim occurs (the FO's response to the request asking if the trim is functional). At this point, flight controls are likely not going to work as designed as the pilots have already failed to keep the airplane in its flight envelope.

C) Only 8 seconds pass between when the captain asks the trim question, the FO replies and asks to use "manual trim", and the FO saying it's not working. There's no mention of the trim wheels themselves. Only 8 seconds raises suspicions that they properly attempted to use the trim wheels. There's no direct evidence yet to say that couldn't turn the wheels under any circumstance and trim the aircraft. There's no "I can't turn it", or "the wheel is too hard to turn". Nothing, only a vague "not working". They were able to keep climbing (and overspeeding) for almost two minutes after this event, and there's no other evidence to suggest they attempted to manually correct trim again. And then they didn't maintain trim of the aircraft when they turned the trim switches back on either.

Very strange events.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:55 pm

morrisond wrote:
I am concerned about the training system Worldwide
...
It seems as though as Electronic systems have gotten so good that basic skills are not taught or emphasized as much anymore.


Perhaps you should give it a rest, as you do come off as if you're blaming the crew here.

If you read the Leeham piece it paints a picture that is a pretty desperate situation. I'd say the crew didn't need any more training.

Instead, what was needed was a fully-analyzed, well-designed, fully tested, and fully described system. And simulator practice for the crews to use it. The hand that these crews were dealt with was an incredibly difficult puzzle that had to be solved in seconds, with very little information about the real dangers like inability to use the manual backup and the effects of AoA failure simultaneously on stick shaker, speed measurements, and trim. And no one, apparently not even Boeing had any idea of how easy or difficult this procedure is. From what I can see the pilots performed exceptionally well but their lives were cut short by bad design and inadequate information.

I have no doubt that the technical issues can be corrected, in the end, but it will take time and Boeing will have to do it carefully and right.

In the meantime, I think some humility would be in order. How about bowing to brave pilots from Ethiopia who paid the ultimate price for being the unplanned test pilots on badly designed procedure?
 
SimonL
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:57 pm

Some speculation:

Once they had realized that manual trim wasnt working they might have thought that starting all over would be the best option, turning on the switches and use the electrical trim to balance the plane and then kill the switches again. Maybe they thought that they could counter the MCAS and didnt realize that its effect would be way too much to handle at the speed they where flying at. It would have been a reasonable thing to do.

As for the throttle they probably didnt have that in mind since they where preoccupied with the trim issues and also later on when they where low and fighting to get the nose up its counter intuitive to reduce the throttle, normally you want all the power you can get. If i was holding on to a shaking stick for my dear life while trying to figure out why the trim isnt working looking at the instrument would be a low priority..
 
kalvado
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:06 pm

SimonL wrote:
Some speculation:

Once they had realized that manual trim wasnt working they might have thought that starting all over would be the best option, turning on the switches and use the electrical trim to balance the plane and then kill the switches again. Maybe they thought that they could counter the MCAS and didnt realize that its effect would be way too much to handle at the speed they where flying at. It would have been a reasonable thing to do.

As for the throttle they probably didnt have that in mind since they where preoccupied with the trim issues and also later on when they where low and fighting to get the nose up its counter intuitive to reduce the throttle, normally you want all the power you can get. If i was holding on to a shaking stick for my dear life while trying to figure out why the trim isnt working looking at the instrument would be a low priority..

Moreover, there are some thumb switch inputs shortly before the final dive.
Possibly, pilot thought switches act independently on different feeds. Turn one switch on, try thumbswitch; it didn't work. Maybe same for the other one. THen both back on - and final dive before hand can go back to thumbswitch.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:09 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
I believe the Max is safe and will be safer as a result of the changes made. Very sad people died in the crashes but the root cause seems to be poor piloting decisions spurred by failures in automation and / or faulty equipment. The bottom line is both flights should never have become accidents....both could and should have landed safely. The decisions the pilots made ultimately sealed everyone’s fate. Yes Boeing made some poor engineering decisions but had the flight crews responded appropriately the outcomes would have been nothing more than an emergency landing.


There is a design flaw in the current 737MAX MCAS implementations. The design flaw can be corrected with software, manual and training updates Boeing is developing. I thought that no-one would dispute the design flaw at this point.


What is the definition of “flaw”? I stated there were some implementation issues with MCAS and some questionable design decisions. I cannot go so far as to say a flaw. I cut my teeth flying checks all night in MU2s. Would you argue that’s a “flawed”design? What about the MD11. I’ve personally never piloted one but spent a ton of time jumpseating for my “regular drive to work” on MD11s when my company used to operate them. I don’t consider these flaws or flawed aircraft. I consider both advanced aircraft requiring solid and maybe in today’s world above average piloting skills.

The “flaw” perhaps is MCAS got its info from one sensor but I hardly consider the Max or MCAS in general a flawed system. The pilots flying the crash flights were flawed in their approach and handling of the situations they encountered leading to a crash.

And yes, the FAA removed the requirement to experience or recover from a developed spin for a private pilot lic many years ago. The rational was the pilot should have never have allowed the plane to enter a stall and if enetered a stall should recover properly from the stall without inducing or allowing a spin to occur.


We mostly agree although we come to the mostly same conclusions from opposite angles.

The reason I consider the current MCAS design contains a flaw is its operation under a single AoA sensor malfunction.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:30 pm

767333ER wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
I believe the Max is safe and will be safer as a result of the changes made. Very sad people died in the crashes but the root cause seems to be poor piloting decisions spurred by failures in automation and / or faulty equipment. The bottom line is both flights should never have become accidents....both could and should have landed safely. The decisions the pilots made ultimately sealed everyone’s fate. Yes Boeing made some poor engineering decisions but had the flight crews responded appropriately the outcomes would have been nothing more than an emergency landing.

In the case of Lion Air, I’m not sure what you think you know about their piloting decisions when the issue first off was literally nothing they’ve ever seen before and something they weren’t trained to deal with thanks to Boeing’s obviously deliberate “negligence” to include it in the differences training and manuals. And now the idea I’ve heard circulating now that the trim might have ended up failing before the crash. Someone who comes on here and says both planes could have and should have landed safely clearly just does not get how flying a plane in a situation like this works or just doesn’t get the situation in the first place. The real point is they should never have allowed the risk from this design to get to the point where it’s almost not humanly possible to mitigate the risk! I don’t know what your background is but when you have most pilots and all the ones I know saying this thing designed the way it is is a death trap, I think it’s pretty close to that.

MD80Ttail wrote:
In the ET accident we are learning the pilots made basic trim management mistakes. The Lion crew similar mistakes and an ill timed hand off of PF from the captain who was in control to the FO. Aviation. Navigate. Communicate. Previous accidents and incidents....the Embraer biz jet mid air w a 737.....the FO was flying and the captain elected not to take control of the plane and allow the FO...who was solidly in control and I believe had more hours on type...continue to be the PF. Smart decision. I question why the PF who was successfully controlling the plane handed control to the FO.

The pilots in both of the Max accidents made bad decisions and did not properly execute emergency procedures resulting in the crashes. Of course, had Boeing made different decisions many will argue...and I agree...but at the end if the day nothing we know about either flight should have resulted in a catastrophe.

What trim management mistakes when there is no trim anyway? Turn the power on, you’re fighting MCAS with your thumb switch that has limited authority, turn it off and you have “manual trim” which according to an engineer that was in charge of such things on the NG said at that point it was almost impossible for most pilots to use since they used a smaller trim wheel and different mechanics than the older 737.

Ultimately blaming the crew and considering them the variable that needs to be changed is flawed logic. Why change the inconsistent variable that will always be imperfect? You put another crew in there with different training, they might recover, they might not, we can’t sit here and refute that theywill be able to do it because we just don’t and can’t know. That’s why the constant variable shouldn’t be targeted which is Boeing’s design. Of course this can only be done if there is a design flaw (yes it is a flaw as per Merriam-Webster dictionary: an imperfection or weakness and especially one that detracts from the whole or hinders effectiveness) in the mix which there is. Take this away and you can be guaranteed none of these crashes would’ve happened because there would be no erroneous operation of the trim to have to deal with. A pilot should never have to fly a plane that literally is trying to crash itself, of course this does happen from time to time for various reasons, but when it’s because of lousy engineering, that’s the worst because that junk is flying off the assembly line at a rate of 50-60 a month all with the same flaw, not just one plane that got damaged and now is compromised.


Here’s what I know in Lion. The captain was PF. He was successfully controlling a plane with multiple issues for several minutes. He was able to override MCAS by making trim up inputs. They had issues BUT they were flying. The plane was somewhat stable and I use that term loosely but the point is he WAS in control for several minutes. How do I know this? If he wasn’t they would have crashed sooner. He hands off flying duties to the FO. The FO does not employ the same previously successful techniques as the captain had moments and minutes before. The plane becomes out of control and crashes. I also know there are procedures in place on the Max, the 737 and every single plane equipped with electric trim...since electric trim was invented.....which should be a memory item and should have been sufficient to disable MCAS. I know at least one previous Lion flight crew had a mirror situation on the previous flight and they properly handled the situation and made a safe landing. To say this was an impossible situation the Lion pilots faced is just completely wrong. Would we say AF447 faced an impossible situation? It was also a known situation as the plane had experienced multiple prior failures of the same or similar nature. Information the fatal crew had the benefit of knowing the previous crews did not have. Further we know the previous crew was successful but what we don’t know or haven’t learned....or I don’t know at least....is how many of the other 4-5 previous flight crews also had the same or similar situation and handled it properly. We know there were issues but not how severe. Possibly we had multiple flight crew properly manage the same issue. We do know for sure the previous flight crew had things come completely off the rails and they managed the situation properly.

We know with the ET flight the crew turned the trim on and off. What I don’t understand and makes no sense is why they would not return the plane to a properly trimmed state before again shutting off the trim. They almost had a successful outcome but botched the procedure. Kind of an “the operation was a success but the patient died” scenario. In this case and I have been very vocal about the 150-200 hrs FO not having enough experience for this set of circumstances......the crew didn’t make good decisions. They knew about MCAS...don’t tell me a single Max pilot in the world didn’t know about Mcas after the Lion accident. I will not believe you unless the max pilot was in a coma. Every Max, and every non Max pilot knew. I know the ET plane was capable of flying, it had wings, control surfaces, power ect. All of the ingredients. Again the crew managed the Mcas issue partially. They successfully handled it, used the proper procedures and the. Turned back on the system. Ok fine. Probably needed the electric trim. Makes sense. What doesn’t is why after trimming the plane they didn’t disable the system? Knowing what I learned after the Lion crash I probably would have elected to extend the flaps knowing MCAS is disabled AND I had the benefit of full electric trim.

Having a 200 hr guy in the right seat certainly wasn’t an asset to the flight no matter how you want to justify it. All they had to do was trim the plane neutral or slightly nose up and fly pitch and power on a bright, clear sunny day and land. It was that simple and it was that hard.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:31 pm

jollo wrote:
Etheereal wrote:
Its not always on, read the posts between page 84 and 86 about the conditions for MCAS to transmit commands.


I disagree: in automation parlance, MCAS is an "always on" controller...


Point taken. You're correct, what i tried to say was that MCAS isnt always in "transmission" mode. Those are the perks for replying to certain posts at 2am.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:32 pm

BEG2IAH wrote:
The aircraft had an unreliable IAS. Why do you think the pilots never executed the unreliable airspeed memory items? This would have prevented the overspeed.

There is no reason to believe that they didn't try to execute the memory items. With the trim issues they had, maybe they just got stuck at setting and maintaining the correct attitude?
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:37 pm

HaulSudson wrote:
The MCAS system seems to have an undisclosed procedure in which the cutout switches are bypassed and pilots are not in control anymore.

The schematic of the B737 MAX clearly show that either of the two stab trim cutout switches cut the signal that energize the triple phase R64 relay that is the only source of electrical power for the stab trim actuator motor and associated electronic control. This is confirmed in the preliminary report, and the published CVR contain the voice of the pilots complaining that the manual trim wheels was "not working". There tried to reconnect the electrical trim commands, but the killer robot was too fast against the human very unusual workload.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:40 pm

Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:44 pm

ptwings wrote:
clancy688 wrote:
Heya, long time lurker here.
Does a 737 simulator simulate aerodynamic forces on the trim wheels?


I also have the same doubt although I believe that yes, the simulators are very realistic
Another question I have is the effects of the G forces on the crew

The Pilots are thrown off their seats, hitting the cockpit roof. Look at the Pitch Attitude Disp trace and the Accel Vert trace. These are on the way to Zero G and we can see how PF loses stick pull in the process (Ctrl Column Pos L). He can barely hold on to the Yoke, let alone pull or trim against.

His reduced pull increases the pitch down further, which increases the speed even more. At 05.45.30 the Pilots have hit the seats again (Accel Vert trace and Ctrl Columns force trace) and can start pulling in a desperate last move. But it’s too late. Despite them creating the largest Control Column movement ever, pitch down attitude is only marginally affected.
https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/05/bjorn ... -analysis/


Of course this is just an interpretation/analysis/theory of what may have happened in the cockpit and as any theory, could be wrong
Can these more extreme environment be replicated in a simulator?

This shouldnt be possible, the aircraft was on Climb mode, they should of be still using their seatbelts.
 
hivue
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:49 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1. What precisely is "overspeed"?


When the overspeed clacker starts sounding.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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remcor
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:49 pm

I like how people are saying they should have prevented the overspeed because they should have predicted that manually trimming at high airspeed would be very hard to do, when Boeing themselves - even after 1 crash - did not predict this could happen.
 
kalvado
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:53 pm

hivue wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1. What precisely is "overspeed"?


When the overspeed clacker starts sounding.

But they were dangerously underspeed, as proven by stick shaker!
And with pitch control going crazy, flying pitch and trim wouldn't work.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:56 pm

PW100 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
ikramerica wrote:
There is an apparent error in the AoA disagree logic relating to MCAS though. It shouldn't operate during disagree. And thats something Boeing and the FAA will need to answer for.


An 'apparent error'? More euphemisms. The whole design and implementation of MCAS is simply appalling. It should never have been certified as it was.


And from now on, we shall call it the System for Characteristic Augmented Maneuvering.

Or "May Crash Aircraft Soon"
Last edited by PixelFlight on Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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remcor
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:56 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'
Last edited by remcor on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:00 pm

remcor wrote:
I like how people are saying they should have prevented the overspeed because they should have predicted that manually trimming at high airspeed would be very hard to do, when Boeing themselves - even after 1 crash - did not predict this could happen.

Which also ought to be a serious concern. It used to be covered in the 737 flight manuals.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:00 pm

“” How about bowing to brave pilots from Ethiopia who paid the ultimate price for being the unplanned test pilots on badly designed procedure?””

Seriously? I don’t bow to anyone and no American bows. We fought a little war called the Revolutionary War to settle that debate.

Look, I fly for a living. That doesn’t mean these Max pilots get a free pass. In both crashes the planes were flyable and the crews failed to do so. Other flight crews had the same scenario and managed it perfectly. They landed. It’s that simple. Aviation is footnoted with many cases of pilots, even experienced ones, flying a perfectly good airplane or an airplane with a minor problem totally into the ground. Could Boeing have done better w MCAS. Sure. But the fact is the both of these planes should have landed safely.

Sadly these two crews didn’t get the right answer. To the person saying maybe the pilots were confused with the two switches ect and were experimenting turning them on and off I don’t buy it at all in the ET crash. IF that was the case then the ET crew was completely and totally incompetent. IF it happened the the Lion crew (and we have no reason to believe it did at this point) it’s justifiable they could have been confused. They are not switches used during normal ops. However and this is a HUGE HOWEVER after the Lion crash every single Max pilot should have known exactly the function of each switch and been intimately familiar with MCAS, procedures and the precise function and wiring of BOTH switches. If the ET crew didnt whoooooa. That’s really really bad on so many levels. I don’t believe that’s the case. I believe they knew or certainly had access to the proper information. They just didn’t execute as needed.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


Now it really seems that you are persistently trolling here with your 20/20 assumptions.

Design which is unable to be flown safely with half of the 737 pilot population is deeply flawed. Just ask Boeing Sales.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:04 pm

remcor wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'


No I’m not. Sully and his crew made the absolute best decision and the outcome proves they were correct. Often the difference between a good decision and bad decision is outcome. I do not believe sully could have made any other successful decision than he did with the circumstances he was dealt. I still order a “Sully” often when I’m out w friends in the industry. It’s a double shot of Grey Goose and a splash of water.
Last edited by MD80Ttail on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:06 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
“” How about bowing to brave pilots from Ethiopia who paid the ultimate price for being the unplanned test pilots on badly designed procedure?””
Look, I fly for a living. That doesn’t mean these Max pilots get a free pass. In both crashes the planes were flyable and the crews failed to do so. Other flight crews had the same scenario and managed it perfectly. They landed. It’s that simple. Aviation is footnoted with many cases of pilots, even experienced ones, flying a perfectly good airplane or an airplane with a minor problem totally into the ground. Could Boeing have done better w MCAS. Sure. But the fact is the both of these planes should have landed safely.


Not everyone is Sully and there is a reason pilots have to memorize some things. Because long history of aviation taught as how planes have to be designed to allow safe flight and what should people do when flying them they encounter unplanned situation.

Both crews did exactly what was expected from them. That is the norm, not "above average performance or you crash".
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:08 pm

kalvado wrote:
hivue wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
1. What precisely is "overspeed"?

When the overspeed clacker starts sounding.

But they were dangerously underspeed, as proven by stick shaker!

Damn - you beat me to it! :lol:

(strictly speaking it's a stall warning as opposed to underspeed per se)

Are you as frustrated as me with all these answers that make it all seem so easy......?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:10 pm

xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


Now it really seems that you are persistently trolling here with your 20/20 assumptions.

Design which is unable to be flown safely with half of the 737 pilot population is deeply flawed. Just ask Boeing Sales.


I don’t understand your point. My opinions are defended and based on facts from previous flights and information we know. I absolutely believe in each case both flights should have been able to land. Lion’s crew only lost control after the captain handed off PF to the FO which I opine was a mistake.

The ET crash the crew almost got things right. They executed the proper procedure but then reactivated the system...which I can understand....but didn’t disable it after they trimmed and left it engaged.

With the ET accident my thought process after learning from Lion would have been to extend flaps knowing I have full trim capabilities AND no MCAS. Seems obvious to me. And don’t say they didn’t figure this out bc of the work load. As Max pilots they should have anticipated many scenarios mentally after the Lion crash. I opine that’s just humane nature anyways. What if this happened to me. After the AS jackscrew accident since I fly MD80s.....you bet I ran every scenario I could imagine in my mind. Every flight afterwards the conversation in the cockpit was about jackscrews. So ya. Why didn’t ET get this right? That’s the crux of the issue.
Last edited by MD80Ttail on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
VV
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:12 pm

seb76 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
VV wrote:

I am not sure the term "manual" here means the trim wheel.

I read the report now and my interpretation is that it was about the manual input to the electric trim (in lieu of the automatic trim).

Obviously it didn't work since the switch was OFF.

Did anyone in the cockpit turn the real manual trim, that is the trim wheel?

The article below have some pictures.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... ckpit.html


That is not impossible - The FO only tried for 8 seconds - we don't know if he extended the Handle to help and there is no indication the Pilot tried to help him crank. You would think that if he couldn't move the manual trim wheel by hand he would have asked the Pilot to help him just like the Pilot was asking him to pull on the Control Column from time to time - but we were not in the cockpit - no way to know.


I think no one can believe that a professional airline pilot would not know that there is a handle that can be extended on the trim wheel? Every 737 pilot is aware that this handle is a knee crusher when the handle is extended with electric trim is still on. That's a well known "feature" of this vintage cockpit.


Okay.

Then I just do not understand why the thing got active toward the end, unless somebody turned the switches ON again.

If you switch them OFF it is then to fly the aircraft manually. And manual means the manual trim wheel (and the handle) without the help of any electrical power. That's my interpretation anyway.

So I am totally confused by the report.
Last edited by VV on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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remcor
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:12 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
remcor wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'


No I’m not. Sully and his crew made the absolute best decision and the outcome proves he was correct. Often the difference between a good decision and bad decision is outcome. I do not believe sully could have made any other successful decision that he did with the circumstances he was dealt. I still order a “Sully” often when I’m out w friends in the industry. It’s a double shot of great goose and a splash of water.


He totaled a perfectly good plane and put people's lives at risk, and people got injured. He could have a boat or underwater pier something. Simulations show if he did everything perfectly he could have made a runway and that plane would still be flying today. So apply the same standard to him.

It was about 3 minutes from first MCAS input to the crash. They were pretty low the whole time. Boeing's proscribed procedures failed to correct the problem, because Boeing didn't predict what is now obvious, that manually trimming may be extremely difficult or impossible. Had they known this - or perhaps been willing to hear it - they should have grounded the MAX fleet immediately after JT610.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:13 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
PW100 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

An 'apparent error'? More euphemisms. The whole design and implementation of MCAS is simply appalling. It should never have been certified as it was.


And from now on, we shall call it the System for Characteristic Augmented Maneuvering.

Or "May Crash Aircraft Soon"

Brilliant!
You should slap a ™ on that idea.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:19 pm

remcor wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
remcor wrote:

You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'


No I’m not. Sully and his crew made the absolute best decision and the outcome proves he was correct. Often the difference between a good decision and bad decision is outcome. I do not believe sully could have made any other successful decision that he did with the circumstances he was dealt. I still order a “Sully” often when I’m out w friends in the industry. It’s a double shot of great goose and a splash of water.


He totaled a perfectly good plane and put people's lives at risk, and people got injured. He could have a boat or underwater pier something. Simulations show if he did everything perfectly he could have made a runway and that plane would still be flying today. So apply the same standard to him.

It was about 3 minutes from first MCAS input to the crash. They were pretty low the whole time. Boeing's proscribed procedures failed to correct the problem, because Boeing didn't predict what is now obvious, that manually trimming may be extremely difficult or impossible. Had they known this - or perhaps been willing to hear it - they should have grounded the MAX fleet immediately after JT610.


Now who’s trolling? A good decision is based on outcome. Everyone lived. He was successful. Good decision. Just like a famous ball coach used to say...Steve Spurrier...a dear friend of mine btw.....when asked “coach was going for it on 4th down a bad decision”. He says “obviously ya we didn’t make it. Would have been a great decision if we had made the play work.”

I think that sums up aviation and most things well.

Back to Sully...he was experiencing somthing that never has happened before. I’m not aware of any commercial aircraft ever having the same scenario in the same exact location. In fact, in our industry in general very few water landings happen. The ET crew and the Lion crew to a lesser extent, had the benefit of exact prior experiences happening at the same stage of flight. I see a huge difference between Sully and the Max accidents.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:20 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
“” How about bowing to brave pilots from Ethiopia who paid the ultimate price for being the unplanned test pilots on badly designed procedure?””

Seriously? I don’t bow to anyone and no American bows. We fought a little war called the Revolutionary War to settle that debate.

Look, I fly for a living. That doesn’t mean these Max pilots get a free pass. In both crashes the planes were flyable and the crews failed to do so. Other flight crews had the same scenario and managed it perfectly. They landed. It’s that simple. Aviation is footnoted with many cases of pilots, even experienced ones, flying a perfectly good airplane or an airplane with a minor problem totally into the ground. Could Boeing have done better w MCAS. Sure. But the fact is the both of these planes should have landed safely.

Sadly these two crews didn’t get the right answer. To the person saying maybe the pilots were confused with the two switches ect and were experimenting turning them on and off I don’t buy it at all in the ET crash. IF that was the case then the ET crew was completely and totally incompetent. IF it happened the the Lion crew (and we have no reason to believe it did at this point) it’s justifiable they could have been confused. They are not switches used during normal ops. However and this is a HUGE HOWEVER after the Lion crash every single Max pilot should have known exactly the function of each switch and been intimately familiar with MCAS, procedures and the precise function and wiring of BOTH switches. If the ET crew didnt whoooooa. That’s really really bad on so many levels. I don’t believe that’s the case. I believe they knew or certainly had access to the proper information. They just didn’t execute as needed.

Given that the same scenario has been tested in the sim by a group of experienced pilots who were (a) forewarned about what was going to happen (b) aware of what the Lionair crew did and (c) not under the pressure of knowing that ~200 lives were on the line, including their own, and they all admitted that they really struggled, I suspect that this post is not going to age well at all. We'll have to wait for the final reports to find out.

Clearly, the aircraft was neither "perfectly good", nor "with a minor problem", otherwise the entire fleet would not currently be grounded.

Personally, I can see nothing in the ET interim report to suggest that the pilots did anything other than attempt to follow the procedures specified by Boeing.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:20 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
remcor wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'


No I’m not. Sully and his crew made the absolute best decision and the outcome proves they were correct. Often the difference between a good decision and bad decision is outcome.


Sully was experienced glider pilot who KNEW how to operate airplane without propulsion. There is a reason improvisation is not a norm. Even now people complain that Ethiopian pilots improvized at the end - but they arrived ad the end of their checklist.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:20 pm

[threeid][/threeid]...turning the system back on and leaving it engaged.......fail common sense
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:23 pm

I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS while still allowing use of the electric trim. Thoughts?
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:27 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Neither Max crash was was a Kobayashi Maru like many other crashes pilots have faced. Japan 123, Critter 592, Swiss 111.........and so many others. Both of these crashes happened to flyable aircraft had the crews made proper inputs and decisions.


Now it really seems that you are persistently trolling here with your 20/20 assumptions.

Design which is unable to be flown safely with half of the 737 pilot population is deeply flawed. Just ask Boeing Sales.


I don’t understand your point. My opinions are defended and based on facts from previous flights and information we know. I absolutely believe in each case both flights should have been able to land. Lion’s crew only lost control after the captain handed off PF to the FO which I opine was a mistake.

The ET crash the crew almost got things right. They executed the proper procedure but then reactivated the system...which I can understand....but didn’t disable it after they trimmed and left it engaged.


There is a thing called Human factors, in fact this is a whole research field. The point is, the people are imperfect and not allowing for certain degree of imperfection is bad design. They were barely above the ground after fighting the death trap airplane. The calculation some people did show that due to airspeed they probably experienced both some zero g even at the slightest trim adjustment, and been slammed into their seats afterwards. We can argue how much you can expect reasonably from the pilots, and of course that is personal opinion of each of us here.

But, purely OBJECTIVELY, your earlier claim that you need to be "above average" to safely fly 737MAX clearly shows some skewed reasoning. Because 737 which cannot be safely flown by half of the 737 pilots is beyond bad design, it is outrageous.
 
Ertro
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:31 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
In both crashes the planes were flyable and the crews failed to do so. Other flight crews had the same scenario and managed it perfectly. They landed


What is the proof to be sure that the planes were flyable? What proof is there to be sure that if the pilots would have done some one additional thing they would have survived? What proof there is to say that the both Lion Air incidents were exactly identical? When something is malfunctioning it can malfunction in different ways and with different severity on different days, right?

MD80Ttail wrote:
I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS and still allowing use if the electric trim. Thoughts?


Are you saying the pilots should have saved the day by improvising outside from any available checklist? If this is the way to solve the problem why didn't Boeing write instructions to do this during the 5 months when Boeing was studying this problem after Lion Air crash?
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:32 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS while still allowing use of the electric trim. Thoughts?


You would tear off the flaps IF you could even extend them at unsafe aerodynamic pressure (I would assume system does not allow that). Even worse, you would partially tear of only one of them, sending plane into unrecoverable spin and end up as pile of smoking debris on the ground, with investigators wondering what the hell were you doing when extending flaps at 300kts, let alone 400kts.

http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm

Are you really an airline pilot?!
 
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remcor
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:32 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
remcor wrote:
He totaled a perfectly good plane and put people's lives at risk, and people got injured. He could have a boat or underwater pier something. Simulations show if he did everything perfectly he could have made a runway and that plane would still be flying today. So apply the same standard to him.

It was about 3 minutes from first MCAS input to the crash. They were pretty low the whole time. Boeing's proscribed procedures failed to correct the problem, because Boeing didn't predict what is now obvious, that manually trimming may be extremely difficult or impossible. Had they known this - or perhaps been willing to hear it - they should have grounded the MAX fleet immediately after JT610.


Now who’s trolling?


No I'm not. But seriously, Boeing should be forcefully broken up and the commercial airplanes division be sold to Airbus.





;)
 
afgeneral
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:33 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS while still allowing use of the electric trim. Thoughts?


If the ET pilots had read this topic and accident report they would have had the hindsight to save the plane as well.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:35 pm

morrisond wrote:
PW100 wrote:
B737900ER wrote:
If you’re out of the flight envelope on any aircraft lots of things stop working as designed.


Sure, but there are strong indications that in the ET accident things (manual pitch trim) stopped working even within the flight envelope.


I checked the timeline on the traces - it appears as though they were already over Vmo (meaning outside the approved flight envelope) when they tried the manual trim wheel - if it was the manual trim wheel they tried and not Manually flicking the Electric Trim Switch

You have totally ignored the point I made about IAS discrepancies even though they are staring you in the face on the graph!
One of the traces on the graph shows Vmo, the other shows a figure 20-25kts over Vmo.

I'll ask the question again; why would anybody choose one figure and ignore the other, except to promote their own agenda?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:36 pm

xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
xmp125a wrote:

Now it really seems that you are persistently trolling here with your 20/20 assumptions.

Design which is unable to be flown safely with half of the 737 pilot population is deeply flawed. Just ask Boeing Sales.


I don’t understand your point. My opinions are defended and based on facts from previous flights and information we know. I absolutely believe in each case both flights should have been able to land. Lion’s crew only lost control after the captain handed off PF to the FO which I opine was a mistake.

The ET crash the crew almost got things right. They executed the proper procedure but then reactivated the system...which I can understand....but didn’t disable it after they trimmed and left it engaged.


There is a thing called Human factors, in fact this is a whole research field. The point is, the people are imperfect and not allowing for certain degree of imperfection is bad design. They were barely above the ground after fighting the death trap airplane. The calculation some people did show that due to airspeed they probably experienced both some zero g even at the slightest trim adjustment, and been slammed into their seats afterwards. We can argue how much you can expect reasonably from the pilots, and of course that is personal opinion of each of us here.

But, purely OBJECTIVELY, your earlier claim that you need to be "above average" to safely fly 737MAX clearly shows some skewed reasoning. Because 737 which cannot be safely flown by half of the 737 pilots is beyond bad design, it is outrageous.


Human factors in ET is a 200 hr FO which is criminal IMO. Not the kids fault but the systems fault. I never said you had to be above average to fly the 737. My comment was to show I believe industry / worldwide there has been a degradation in flying and decision making skills. I think in the late 60s / 70s an average pilot could have flown the MU2 and MD11 (has it existed then). Today I believe perhaps it takes someone a bit above average because skills have declined.

You have fixated on one little comment and sentence and built a narrative around it that wasn’t intended. But hey that’s fake news and today’s society in general so not your fault.

Ok folks I’m off to go do some “real” flying. A friend of mine just bought a super sweet Grumman Tiger. I’m going to do a little flying with him and see if I can handle a castering nosewheel or not. Will have some nice crosswinds today. Have a great day to all.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:40 pm

VV wrote:
Then I just do not understand why the thing got active toward the end, unless somebody turned the switches ON again.

If you switch them OFF it is then to fly the aircraft manually. And manual means the manual trim wheel (and the handle) without the help of any electrical power. That's my interpretation anyway.

So I am totally confused by the report.


https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/stabili ... range.html

One possible explanation is that the loads on the jackscrew due to the severe stabilizer nose down out-of-trim situation were too great for the pilot to overcome using the trim wheel with folding handle. The pilots restored electric trim as a means to trim.

Boeing published a technique in the past that discussed this issue and the need to release the column briefly in a series of "roller coaster" or "yo yo" maneuvers, by cranking in stabilizer trim alternatively with large column commands.


Imagine being faced with necessity to do yo-yo motions with high airspeed, low altitude, mountains ahead. Oh, and as I understand, this is from the old manuals, the wheels hot smaller in the meantime, so the even more force is required for the same angular moment on the wheel.
 
MD80Ttail
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:40 pm

xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS while still allowing use of the electric trim. Thoughts?


You would tear off the flaps IF you could even extend them at unsafe aerodynamic pressure (I would assume system does not allow that). Even worse, you would partially tear of only one of them, sending plane into unrecoverable spin and end up as pile of smoking debris on the ground, with investigators wondering what the hell were you doing when extending flaps at 300kts, let alone 400kts.

http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm¡

Are you really an airline pilot?!



Wow. Can’t believe I have to explain in such detail. The Mcas issue started when flaps were retracted. One of the basic rules of flying is if you take an action and the plane doesn’t like it undo said action. The IAS problems started immediately after take off and the MCAS problems where flaps were retracted. I would have immediately redeployed the flaps after retracting them and having an issue -or- would have never retracted them in the beginning in this situation knowing it would engage MCAS. Which they should have known after the Lion crash. Then fly pitch and power for said configuration. Before the flaps “rip” off you will get some nice buffeting as a warning btw.

It’s frustrating today every little detail has to be explained. One would think the premise is easy to understand.
Last edited by MD80Ttail on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
tribird1011 wrote:
morrisond wrote:

Great post - I agree 100% It was a combination of many factors. Boeing and Pilots.

BTW - The FO of that plane had less hours than I do (he was at 98 hours(or 154 the report is a little unclear) - I got to about 110 total before stopping 10 years ago)before he was made a FO of an 737. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about - well someone with less hours (or slightly more) was made a FO of a 737.

In that time he apparently earned his basic license, night rating, instrument rating, multi engine rating and commercial rating. That is just wrong and should not be considered sufficient experience in any shape or form. In Canada you would need Hundred's (300-400) hours to accumulate all those ratings and then at least another 1,000 hours or so before you graduated to a 737 as FO.

If the Pilot was incapacitated how would you feel about having a FO with 98 total hours(or 154) in charge of getting you safely back to the ground? If you are good with that standard of training then fine - but I am not.

Over on the other forum someone who sounds very familiar with the 737 (possibly a Captain) is speculating the following:

"having belatedly recognized the need to cutout trim switches the
pilot either doesnt ask the copilot to trim ANU manually or the copilot
doesnt know how to operate manual trim (manual handle button must be depressed
before it will release)....relates to training and crew composition...200 hour
pilots dont belong in airline operations,pay to fly,SOP rote over airmanship etc etc"

It's quite possible the FO with that low hours had never operated the manual trim so didn't know they had to depress the manual handle button.

He gave up trying to see if it worked after 8 seconds. He may have tried it again (or the Pilot might have) - but there is nothing in the Text talking about that.


Need to highlight that particular line...

In Canada, I obtained my Commercial licence at 201.6 hours. That included Night rating and Group 1 Multi-Engine and IFR Ratings.
Believe it or not, in Canada you can write the IATRA exam (essentially ATPL knowledge) with 250 hours. IF you get a type rating on (let's say a 737) you too can ride right seat on that airplane with 250 hours. Now, the way the industry is set up here, the airlines won't hire you with that low time strictly for insurance purposes... as per TC, it's totally legal!!


I stand corrected - I was doing that off Memory.

How would you feel about getting in an 737 at 250 hours the pilot being incapacitated at night in IFR conditions over water coming into an unfamiliar airport and having some of the electronic systems not working?


The same as I feel about getting on a flight across the Pacific with only two engines. Fine. Double engine is probably more likely that your scenario. And this fixation on hours is ridiculous. It is standard throughout the European majors. There is plenty of research done showing that human performance is more dependent on quality of training rather than arbitrary experience. The US hours requirement was nothing more than a PR move to look like something was being done, when the crash it was done in response to didn't even involve low hours pilots.
 
xmp125a
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:45 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
Human factors in ET is a 200 hr FO which is criminal IMO. Not the kids fault but the systems fault. I never said you had to be above average to fly the 737. My comment was to show I believe industry / worldwide there has been a degradation in flying and decision making skills. I think in the late 60s / 70s an average pilot could have flown the MU2 and MD11 (has it existed then). Today I believe perhaps it takes someone a bit above average because skills have declined.


Yes. And that is the question of plane & pilot certification.

Fact is, pilots fulfilled ALL conditions specifed by Boeing to be able to fly 737MAX. Was that enough? Absolutely not. But this is not airline or pilots fault, it is Boeing fault. Perhaps 737 pilots would need few hours in 737MAX simulator? Perhaps they would need 1000 hours minimum? Don't know, I can freely admit that they would.

But the onus is on airplane manufacturer to define pilot certification requirements correctly, so they correspond to the difficulty of the plane they built!

Both crews fulfilled all the requirements for flying that plane, and what we know so far it shows us no great mistakes or negligence on their part.
 
Etheereal
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:49 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
kalvado wrote:
hivue wrote:
When the overspeed clacker starts sounding.

But they were dangerously underspeed, as proven by stick shaker!

Damn - you beat me to it! :lol:

(strictly speaking it's a stall warning as opposed to underspeed per se)

Are you as frustrated as me with all these answers that make it all seem so easy......?

Excuse me, wasnt precisely the stick shaker active because the Captain side's AoA had a 76° pitch up nose up indicator?

The FO side was overspeeding instead.
 
morrisond
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobiq

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:52 pm

remcor wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
remcor wrote:

You're like the guy in that Sully movie who is like 'why couldn't you land at Teterboro? you could have made the runway had your decision-making process been better.'


No I’m not. Sully and his crew made the absolute best decision and the outcome proves he was correct. Often the difference between a good decision and bad decision is outcome. I do not believe sully could have made any other successful decision that he did with the circumstances he was dealt. I still order a “Sully” often when I’m out w friends in the industry. It’s a double shot of great goose and a splash of water.


He totaled a perfectly good plane and put people's lives at risk, and people got injured. He could have a boat or underwater pier something. Simulations show if he did everything perfectly he could have made a runway and that plane would still be flying today. So apply the same standard to him.

It was about 3 minutes from first MCAS input to the crash. They were pretty low the whole time. Boeing's proscribed procedures failed to correct the problem, because Boeing didn't predict what is now obvious, that manually trimming may be extremely difficult or impossible. Had they known this - or perhaps been willing to hear it - they should have grounded the MAX fleet immediately after JT610.


But they didn't follow Boeing's procedures - they didn't bring the nose up to Neutral Trim before disengaging Electric Trim - they were Overspeed (didn't follow the procedure to set Power at 75% N1 in case of erroneous Airspeed indications) and they turned Electric Trim back on and neglected to turn it right back off. It's hard to believe that had a good understanding of the system, the procedures or the Memo.

The FO should have had training on what to do in this situation when they were in the SIM in January at the very least - but who knows they might have.
 
SimonL
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:53 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
I have stated this before but no one has discussed.....if I was in the ET cockpit...and I had considered this before the ET crash after learning from the lion accident.....I would have lowered flaps to disable the MCAS while still allowing use of the electric trim. Thoughts?


You would tear off the flaps IF you could even extend them at unsafe aerodynamic pressure (I would assume system does not allow that). Even worse, you would partially tear of only one of them, sending plane into unrecoverable spin and end up as pile of smoking debris on the ground, with investigators wondering what the hell were you doing when extending flaps at 300kts, let alone 400kts.

http://www.b737.org.uk/flapspeedschedule.htm¡

Are you really an airline pilot?!



Wow. Can’t believe I have to explain in such detail. The Mcas issue started when flaps were retracted. One of the basic rules of flying is if you take an action and the plane doesn’t like it undo said action. The IAS problems started immediately after take off and the MCAS problems where flaps were retracted. I would have immediately redeployed the flaps after retracting them and having an issue -or- would have never retracted them in the beginning in this situation knowing it would engage MCAS. Which they should have known after the Lion crash. Then fly pitch and power for said configuration. Before the flaps “rip” off you will get some nice buffeting as a warning btw.

It’s frustrating today every little detail has to be explained. One would think the premise is easy to understand.


Did any checklist or procedure suggest that they should have?
 
djm18
Posts: 104
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:57 pm

Questions for a pilot:

Does the stick shaker go off on one side or both at the same time? How hard is it to fly the plane with the stick shaker going off?
 
dragon6172
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:59 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
dragon6172 wrote:
They were at least 25-30 knots over Vmo


2. There are two speed traces on the graph. Only one exceeds the guideline Vmo. Why would you select one version over another (except to promote a certain agenda)?

Agenda? Sheesh. No agenda, just reading the data provided from the FDR. The RH speed trace exceeds Vmo. I chose it because the RH side is the working side. The LH AoA indicator is the failed side causing unreliable airspeed on the LH side (25-30 knots lower than the RH). And, for what its worth to you, the LH was above Vmo for some time as well. It says in the report the LH overspeed alarm sounded intermittently from 5:41:32 until the end of the flight.
Phrogs Phorever
 
morrisond
Posts: 2659
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:59 pm

Planetalk wrote:
morrisond wrote:
tribird1011 wrote:

Need to highlight that particular line...

In Canada, I obtained my Commercial licence at 201.6 hours. That included Night rating and Group 1 Multi-Engine and IFR Ratings.
Believe it or not, in Canada you can write the IATRA exam (essentially ATPL knowledge) with 250 hours. IF you get a type rating on (let's say a 737) you too can ride right seat on that airplane with 250 hours. Now, the way the industry is set up here, the airlines won't hire you with that low time strictly for insurance purposes... as per TC, it's totally legal!!


I stand corrected - I was doing that off Memory.

How would you feel about getting in an 737 at 250 hours the pilot being incapacitated at night in IFR conditions over water coming into an unfamiliar airport and having some of the electronic systems not working?


The same as I feel about getting on a flight across the Pacific with only two engines. Fine. Double engine is probably more likely that your scenario. And this fixation on hours is ridiculous. It is standard throughout the European majors. There is plenty of research done showing that human performance is more dependent on quality of training rather than arbitrary experience. The US hours requirement was nothing more than a PR move to look like something was being done, when the crash it was done in response to didn't even involve low hours pilots.


Fine - then the quality of training Worldwide appears to basically suck then.

I quoted a UK pilot up thread who is an 737 Pilot based in the UK (Doesn't mean he necessarily flies for a European Airline but not a bad assumption). He mentioned that he only had use the Manual Trim wheel twice - once on Type training and only once on one of the times he had recurrent training.

That doesn't seem like quality training to me. Is everyone else fine with the Quality of Training Worldwide given what we have seen in the last number of accidents?
 
xmp125a
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:06 pm

MD80Ttail wrote:
Wow. Can’t believe I have to explain in such detail. The Mcas issue started when flaps were retracted. One of the basic rules of flying is if you take an action and the plane doesn’t like it undo said action. The IAS problems started immediately after take off and the MCAS problems where flaps were retracted. I would have immediately redeployed the flaps after retracting them and having an issue -or- would have never retracted them in the beginning in this situation knowing it would engage MCAS. Which they should have known after the Lion crash.


Except that after Lion crash, that is not what pilots were told to do:

https://www.aviationtoday.com/wp-conten ... rgency.pdf

NOWHERE in the directive is "reenable flaps" mentioned as remedy. So, again, this is Monday morning quarterback syndrome. You know that because you had days to ponder over what to do. They had minutes and ton of work to do, even after being perfectly aware what is the problem.

Do you really know what would be possible side effects of flaps after they fought of first round of "MCAS attack" (e.g. about 20 seconds later, MCAS did hold down the nose for 9 seconds)? Perhaps there is a reason that the checklist on MCAS problems does not suggest this, perhaps there are other deadly consequences by doing this? Again, normal pilots are expected to adhere to checklist first, and then go freestyling after checklists do not solve the problems. As someone else said, the Hudson crash could easily ended differently, with all the people dead and Sully would be declared idiot and not the hero. Airline safety is not built on people having bright moments of innovative ideas!

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