User avatar
SQ789
Posts: 609
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:51 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:27 am

conflats wrote:
Aircraft is ET-AVJ delivered in middle of November 2018

ET-AVJ should have made it's first flight on the day of Lion Air's crash last October and was delivered on 15 November.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
User avatar
Jouhou
Posts: 1920
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:28 am

sandbender wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
It was discussed in the aftermath of JT610 that MCAS exists to compensate for the positioning of the engines. Using the old 737 frame with larger diameter engines forced them to put the engines in front of the wing, which messed with the overall balance of the 737. Yes they most certainly have taken the 737 to its limits.


They haven't been "under" the wings of a 737 since they moved to the CFM56's on the 300 series. High bypass turbofans are "forward" of the wings on most (all?) modern airliners (*with wing mounted engines obviously).


OK, I was being overly simplistic. They made the engines larger and needed to place them even further forward and higher. Look at photos.
 
raylee67
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:29 am

Another MAX?

The first ever MAX was delivered in May 2017. Barely 22 months into service and there are two crashes already. Seems a bit unusual for new types. Since the 1990s (the days of A330/A340/777), we have been used to seeing new types entering service with safe operations for 10+ years or even 20+ years before any major accident.

There is not enough info to speculate anything for this one. But even if it's found to be not related to the design or the engineering at the end, it may start to give the traveling public a pause when booking a flight on the MAX.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8261
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:31 am

I like to fly on ET through ADD, I can imagine the landscape it crashed into clearly. I would imagine there was a large number of nationalities on this flight too. I hope this doesn't result in mass hysteria about ET. I was considering a few MAX flights coming up, It does make me a little uneasy, but in truth, the chances are still low enough I might risk a short flight after the report. Families of everyone onboard will be of course be hit hardest, I can't imagine their anguish. However, Airline employee to airline employees at ET, I wish them all strength in dealing with this and keeping the airline going at the same time. Airlines grieve these losses acutely too, anyone who works in the industry knows that their colleagues are like family. We may squabble like siblings but at the end of the day we spend public holidays, all hours of the day and night together and find it a hard industry to leave because we have a bond that most workforces don't.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:32 am

SCFirefighter wrote:
Viper911 wrote:
Per avherald:
"The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 8173 feet MSL at that position."


Edit: I need to goto sleep. I can’t even read. Ignore this reply.

Pretty safe to say that’s extremely close to where it went down. Why? Elevation for those coordinates is 8,132ft MSL.


Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climber at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL

Image
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
xwb565
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:32 am

On fr24 other 737s departing in the same direction appear to be 6-7000ft(14000-15000ft) above where this aircraft was at the same point.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11426
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:33 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Ethiopian has a good reputation as an airline, right ?


Actually they’ve fatally crashed a 738, this decade, just after take off, due to poor piloting. This to me looks more similar to today’s incident than the JT610 incident so maybe it’s an Ethiopian Airlines issue, not the MAX:

The final report released by the Lebanese Civil Aviation Authority stated that the flight crew mismanaged the aircraft's speed, altitude, and heading. The crew's flight control inputs were inconsistent and these resulted in the loss of control of the aircraft. The crew failed to abide by Crew Resource Management principles of mutual support and verbalizing deviations and this prevented any timely intervention and correction of the aircraft's flight path and maneuvers


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_409


Yeah I remember that one now. The weather disoriented the crew and they crashed it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
flyingbird
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:21 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:35 am

PW100 wrote:
SCFirefighter wrote:
Viper911 wrote:
Per avherald:
"The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 8173 feet MSL at that position."


Edit: I need to goto sleep. I can’t even read. Ignore this reply.

Pretty safe to say that’s extremely close to where it went down. Why? Elevation for those coordinates is 8,132ft MSL.


Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climber at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL

Image


No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177
 
ETinCaribe
Posts: 470
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:57 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:36 am

What a terrible news, RIP to the deceased and to their families including the ET family.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8136
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:36 am

Until we recover the black boxes, it's impossible to determine what happened currently, except for two things: 1) what was the maintenance records of the plane and 2) what was the weather conditions?
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:37 am

PW100 wrote:
Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climber at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL

Image


That is barometric altitude above sea level. 737 doesn’t climb 8000 fpm. Apparently it was CFIT in the end, but whatever preceded that to distract the crew.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:38 am

The investigators should make the investigation completely transparent instead of making the "reports" then and there to pacify the public.
 
DeltaWings
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:06 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:40 am

Am I the only one who also considers a terrorist attack? Just a thought
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11426
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:40 am

Finn350 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climber at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL

Image


That is barometric altitude above sea level. 737 doesn’t climb 8000 fpm. Apparently it was CFIT in the end, but whatever preceded that to distract the crew.


Let's say there was some mechanical issue, not necessarily the MCAS one, but control reversion for example. Would we call it CFIT, if the crew weren't really in control at any point in the flight ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Shul89
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:43 am

Ethiopia's state broadcaster says there are no survivors from the Ethiopian Airlines flight which crashed with 157 people aboard and the plane had passengers from 33 countries
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:44 am

DeltaWings wrote:
Am I the only one who also considers a terrorist attack? Just a thought


That doesn't explain unstable V/S, if I have not mistaken. It is too early for a hijack to take place too.
 
RandWkop
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 10:56 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:44 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?

Grounding the fleet will only cost financial loss and travellers, airlines will be inconvenienced. It should have no bearing on the decision. The simple fact of the matter is that every time a passenger aircraft takes off the lives on board depend entirely on the machine and the professionals who built it and fly it. At the minute this fleet has lost two aircraft in a short space of time. There is an argument that it is not the an aircraft fault simply because of the airlines involved and the lack of evidence. But even Boeing must be getting concerned at this stage. If it is simply a training or certifying issue, why not ground the fleet until it is resolved. If these two crashes had involved US airlines, the Max would be grounded regardless of fault. I hope that doesn't occur.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:44 am

Aesma wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climber at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL

Image


That is barometric altitude above sea level. 737 doesn’t climb 8000 fpm. Apparently it was CFIT in the end, but whatever preceded that to distract the crew.


Let's say there was some mechanical issue, not necessarily the MCAS one, but control reversion for example. Would we call it CFIT, if the crew weren't really in control at any point in the flight ?


You are correct, if there was a loss of control it wouldn't be called CFIT.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:45 am

flyingbird wrote:
No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177



Look at the graph:
* Blue line represents altitude;
* Blue line starts a 0 ft altitude, so clearly that is AGL;
* Blue line goes upto at least 8000 ft above runway (which is at 0 ft in the graph);
* ADD runway is at 7650 ft.;
Therefore is seems logical that the aircraft reached at least 15000 ft before data feed stopped.
And note that FR24 stated that data feed did not stop because of the crash, but because the aircraft left the FR24 covered area.

Further, it does seem logical that the aircraft "struggled" to reach 1000 ft AGL, when airspeed (yellow line in graph) reached 400 kts.

Or am I reading the graph incorrectly, somehow?


Image
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1620
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:46 am

Finn350 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
345tas wrote:
A very brief playback on FR24 seems to show fluctuations in vertical speed just after take-off.


Could that be MCAS problems again?


Very sad news. It could be an MCAS problem, but frankly there is not enough information to reach conclusions at this early stage.

There were reports Boeing was developing a software fix for the MCAS after JT610, but apparently the fix is not ready yet, or at least not deployed.


Too early to know what the cause was.

The MCAS fix hasn't been deployed yet because no-one can decide exactly what the fix should do.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12093
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 am

RandWkop wrote:
It should have no bearing on the decision.

And in a perfect world, it wouldn't.

But ours isn't such, and you'd have to be naive out of your mind to actually believe that that doesn't hold enormous sway on regulators' decision.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 am

SQ789 wrote:
conflats wrote:
Aircraft is ET-AVJ delivered in middle of November 2018

ET-AVJ should have made it's first flight on the day of Lion Air's crash last October and was delivered on 15 November.


The Lion Air crash was a day before the ET plance made it's first flight.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
konrad
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:54 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:49 am

PW100 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177


Look at the graph:
* Blue line represents altitude;
etc...


Check raw data from FR24 in the post #70 and on Twitter.
It doesn't agree with the graphical representation (plot).
Last edited by konrad on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
EmoticonsAllDay
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:50 am

RandWkop wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?

Grounding the fleet will only cost financial loss and travellers, airlines will be inconvenienced. It should have no bearing on the decision. The simple fact of the matter is that every time a passenger aircraft takes off the lives on board depend entirely on the machine and the professionals who built it and fly it. At the minute this fleet has lost two aircraft in a short space of time. There is an argument that it is not the an aircraft fault simply because of the airlines involved and the lack of evidence. But even Boeing must be getting concerned at this stage. If it is simply a training or certifying issue, why not ground the fleet until it is resolved. If these two crashes had involved US airlines, the Max would be grounded regardless of fault. I hope that doesn't occur.


SAFETY is far more important than money, disruption, inconvenience etc. After all, planes were invented to benefit the mankind and not to cause harm/destroy it.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:51 am

EricAY05 wrote:
I think the most important point here is that Lion Air and Ethiopian crashed two brand-new 737MAXs. Even if its related to the design, somehow these problems lead to accidents more often in some parts of the world than in others.

It wasn't AA and UA or Norwegian and Icelandair. I'm sure everyone understands the difference, despite trying to be politically correct.


Do you know anything about ET that we don't? It is actually considered a safe airline and it's a member of Star Alliance.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
log0008
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:52 am

PW100 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177



Look at the graph:
* Blue line represents altitude;
* Blue line starts a 0 ft altitude, so clearly that is AGL;
* Blue line goes upto at least 8000 ft above runway (which is at 0 ft in the graph);
* ADD runway is at 7650 ft.;
Therefore is seems logical that the aircraft reached at least 15000 ft before data feed stopped.
And note that FR24 stated that data feed did not stop because of the crash, but because the aircraft left the FR24 covered area.

Further, it does seem logical that the aircraft "struggled" to reach 1000 ft AGL, when airspeed (yellow line in graph) reached 400 kts.

Or am I reading the graph incorrectly, somehow?


Image



FR24 knows when an aircraft is on the ground and reports it as 0 feet not if you were to take it as AGL the graph would say the aircraft went from 0 to 8000ft in less than 1 minute, completely impossible.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3561
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:53 am

Finn350 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Well, FR24 data shows the aircraft climbed at least 8000 ft when FR24 data stopped do (note that data feed stopped well before the crash, as FR24 coverage is limited to the immediate airport area). Since ADD is 7650 ft., one could conclude that aircraft altitude was at least 15000 ft AMSL


That is barometric altitude above sea level. 737 doesn’t climb 8000 fpm..


Good point.
Am I being fooled by FR24 transition algorithm from AGL to AMSL?
Last edited by PW100 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
nachopants
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:48 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:53 am

PW100 wrote:
Further, it does seem logical that the aircraft "struggled" to reach 1000 ft AGL, when airspeed (yellow line in graph) reached 400 kts.

Or am I reading the graph incorrectly, somehow?


If you take a look at the raw data it goes from 0 feet to ~7000 feet at 100 knots in a split second, indicating it reports against sea level as soon as it's off the ground.

Hence, the aircraft never got more than 1000 feet off the ground
Last edited by nachopants on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
JohnKrist
Head Support
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:54 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:53 am

ET had a crash related to pilot error 9 years ago, and that is a reason it is unsafe? By that standard very few airlines, and no region is safe to fly. ET has had four bigger crashes in 50 years of operation, one a birdstrike, and one was crashed by hi-jackers. Now that is pretty good for an airline from ”poor country with bad maintenance”

Edited due to fat fingers
Last edited by JohnKrist on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS II, Canon 50mm 1.4, Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, Sigma 105mm 1.4 ART, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, SPEEDLITE 600EX-RT
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:54 am

PW100 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177



Look at the graph:
* Blue line represents altitude;
* Blue line starts a 0 ft altitude, so clearly that is AGL;
* Blue line goes upto at least 8000 ft above runway (which is at 0 ft in the graph);
* ADD runway is at 7650 ft.;
Therefore is seems logical that the aircraft reached at least 15000 ft before data feed stopped.
And note that FR24 stated that data feed did not stop because of the crash, but because the aircraft left the FR24 covered area.

Further, it does seem logical that the aircraft "struggled" to reach 1000 ft AGL, when airspeed (yellow line in graph) reached 400 kts.

Or am I reading the graph incorrectly, somehow?


Image

The altitude is in MSL, not AGL. When an aircraft is on the ground, FR24 shows the altitude as being 0' no matter what the altitude of the airport is at.
 
User avatar
JohnKrist
Head Support
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:54 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:57 am

Finn350 wrote:
That is barometric altitude above sea level. 737 doesn’t climb 8000 fpm. Apparently it was CFIT in the end, but whatever preceded that to distract the crew.


Eh, no it does not mean it was a CFIT, it may be that they could not gain altitude and hit terrain as there was nowhere to go.
5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS II, Canon 50mm 1.4, Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, Sigma 105mm 1.4 ART, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, SPEEDLITE 600EX-RT
 
UALWN
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Ethiopian has a good reputation as an airline, right ?


Actually they’ve fatally crashed a 738, this decade, just after take off, due to poor piloting. This to me looks more similar to today’s incident than the JT610 incident so maybe it’s an Ethiopian Airlines issue, not the MAX:

The final report released by the Lebanese Civil Aviation Authority stated that the flight crew mismanaged the aircraft's speed, altitude, and heading. The crew's flight control inputs were inconsistent and these resulted in the loss of control of the aircraft. The crew failed to abide by Crew Resource Management principles of mutual support and verbalizing deviations and this prevented any timely intervention and correction of the aircraft's flight path and maneuvers


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_409


Except that ET409 took off at night and under stormy conditions, which led to pilot disorientation. Hardly similar to today's conditions.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
oschkosch
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:04 am

RickNRoll wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Could that be MCAS problems again?


Very sad news. It could be an MCAS problem, but frankly there is not enough information to reach conclusions at this early stage.

There were reports Boeing was developing a software fix for the MCAS after JT610, but apparently the fix is not ready yet, or at least not deployed.


Too early to know what the cause was.

The MCAS fix hasn't been deployed yet because no-one can decide exactly what the fix should do.
I have said it before: if a fix is necessary, then something is wrong. Thus Boeing has a huge issue on their hands here.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:06 am

I'm not saying this crash has anything to do with terrorism, but interestingly enough the US issued a Security Alert a few days ago in which US Government travelers were advised not to arrive or depart from the Addis Ababa airport today.

"Event: The U.S. Embassy is aware of calls for a protest to be held on Sunday, March 10, 2019 at Meskel Square. It is unknown whether the protest has been or will be approved by Ethiopian authorities. Protests have already occurred in many parts of the Oromia region since March 6, and additional protests may materialize.

U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia."

https://et.usembassy.gov/security-alert ... arch-2019/
 
KL785
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:07 am

konrad wrote:
PW100 wrote:
flyingbird wrote:
No, it does not. The transponder data is AMSL. Airport is at 7600 feet so the aircraft never climbed more than 1000 feet.
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177


Look at the graph:
* Blue line represents altitude;
etc...


Check raw data from FR24 in the post #70 and on Twitter.
It doesn't agree with the graphical representation (plot).


Seems consistent to me.

Apart from the altitude issue, that's with the speed? Close to 400 kts less than 1000 ft AGL seems excessive.
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:09 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
I'm not saying this crash has anything to do with terrorism, but interestingly enough the US issued a Security Alert a few days ago in which US Government travelers were advised not to arrive or depart from the Addis Ababa airport today.

"Event: The U.S. Embassy is aware of calls for a protest to be held on Sunday, March 10, 2019 at Meskel Square. It is unknown whether the protest has been or will be approved by Ethiopian authorities. Protests have already occurred in many parts of the Oromia region since March 6, and additional protests may materialize.

U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia."

https://et.usembassy.gov/security-alert ... arch-2019/


How is this relevant?
 
marcelh
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:12 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Not jumping the gun here, but IF it is in fact a design flaw with the aircraft, let’s hope that Bowing can solve it like the 737 Classic rudder issues back when they were new. 737 Classics turned out to be very successful, despite the early challenges.

I’m more interested if there is a design flaw. They just put some new engines onto an exsisting and very succesful (the most succesful?) plane in the world.
 
User avatar
nordikcam
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

Aesma wrote:
Ethiopian has a good reputation as an airline, right ?


Not specially ! My point of view as frequent flyer. Other accidents. Look at flight 409 or 702...some problems !
 
SoCalPilot
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:37 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:13 am

A3801000 wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
I'm not saying this crash has anything to do with terrorism, but interestingly enough the US issued a Security Alert a few days ago in which US Government travelers were advised not to arrive or depart from the Addis Ababa airport today.

"Event: The U.S. Embassy is aware of calls for a protest to be held on Sunday, March 10, 2019 at Meskel Square. It is unknown whether the protest has been or will be approved by Ethiopian authorities. Protests have already occurred in many parts of the Oromia region since March 6, and additional protests may materialize.

U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia."

https://et.usembassy.gov/security-alert ... arch-2019/


How is this relevant?

The US issuing a security alert advising against travel to/from the same airport on the same exact day isn't relevant?
 
A3801000
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:12 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:15 am

SoCalPilot wrote:
A3801000 wrote:
SoCalPilot wrote:
I'm not saying this crash has anything to do with terrorism, but interestingly enough the US issued a Security Alert a few days ago in which US Government travelers were advised not to arrive or depart from the Addis Ababa airport today.

"Event: The U.S. Embassy is aware of calls for a protest to be held on Sunday, March 10, 2019 at Meskel Square. It is unknown whether the protest has been or will be approved by Ethiopian authorities. Protests have already occurred in many parts of the Oromia region since March 6, and additional protests may materialize.

U.S. Embassy personnel are advised to avoid Meskel Square and limit movement around Addis Ababa on Sunday, March 10. U.S. Government travelers have been advised not to arrive or depart Bole International Airport on Sunday, March 10, and U.S. Embassy personnel are also temporarily prohibited from traveling to Oromia."

https://et.usembassy.gov/security-alert ... arch-2019/


How is this relevant?

The US issuing a security alert advising against travel to/from the same airport on the same exact day isn't relevant?


Because some people with home made signs might block a road. How is that relevant to a plane crash?
 
wstakl
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:18 am

fra_planespotter_ on IG claiming to show burning wreckage.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:20 am

JQ321 wrote:
Hopefully not related at all to the JT610 Crash . However, all 737MAX Aircraft should be grounded till the cause is determined as seen in these two crashes there may be a design flaw. My condolences to all affected.


Absolutely not. The ramifications of grounding on so many levels do not warrant a knee jerk reaction. We are talking about crashes in the third wold. Indonesia and Africa. For the record I have flown on both Lion and Ethiopian Airlines. Both are still in the third world.

Very sad for the loss of life and for the families affected.
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:23 am

Zoedyn wrote:
Dying to know the causes


Really? So did all of pax and crew.
 
yhmfan
Posts: 579
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:44 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:24 am

log0008 wrote:
Note: Addis Ababa airport has an elevation of 7656ft, the flight only reached 1000ft AGL based on FR24 data of 8600ft.

AGL is “Above Ground Level”
If you look at FR24 chart, it starts at zero not runway elevation.
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14060
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:24 am

First of all, condolences to the families of the victims and of the ET staff.

That there has been 2 full loss crashes relatively shortly after take-off of this new sub-model of the 737 in a short time after introduction into service does lead to some serious concerns. I am quite sure a number of people at Boeing, the maker of the avionics, the engines, of safety regulators in the USA, Europe and elsewhere all got prompt alerts about this crash and to try to figure out an early understanding of what happened.

The investigation of Lion Air crash is still in progress but needs to be hurried up. As some have noted, the 737 MAX may have a design flaw not properly compensated for in the position of the engines, in its automated control systems, but there could be some other flaw in systems of the a/c or in pilot training for this new sub-model. I suspect Boeing, avionics makers, air crash investigators and others may want to look as the FDR's of the other 737MAX's in service to compare to this crash and that of Lion Air to see if the automated controls and actions of the pilots are different and if areas that need correction.
 
Olly2185
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:51 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:28 am

 
oschkosch
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:29 am

Olly2185 wrote:
Boeing Statement on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302

March 10, 2019 - Boeing is deeply saddened to learn of the passing of the passengers and crew on Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, a 737 MAX 8 airplane. We extend our heartfelt sympathies to the families and loved ones of the passengers and crew on board and stand ready to support the Ethiopian Airlines team. A Boeing technical team is prepared to provide technical assistance at the request and under the direction of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.



Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
MD80Ttail
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:35 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Redd wrote:
Should more people potentially die before someone makes the decision?

.


Ok so I’ll play along. Ground the Max fleet immediately. Flights will be canceled. More people will end up driving. Driving is exponentially more dangerous than flying even the most unsafe airline in the world flying the most unsafe planes. Due to the grounding more lives are lost on the road than would have been in the air.

Boeing is irreparablely harmed. Production line is shut down. Workers laid off. Family’s loose a pay check. The US economy suffers. Trade deficit increases.

Most likely we find out this crash isn’t related.

-or- let’s ground Lion Air and Ethiopian Airways until the crash can be figured out. Makes more sense. They have crashed a whole lot of planes and killed a lot of people so until we know just ground them.

(I’m not for grounding anyone and would get on a max at any airline in the world at this very moment and not have even a twinge of a second thought.)
 
zoom321
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:36 am

Boeing is more concerned with how the share price will react tomorrow than grounding & fixing 737Max.
 
Spetsnaz55
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:38 am

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:39 am

zoom321 wrote:
Boeing is more concerned with how the share price will react tomorrow than grounding & fixing 737Max.



How do you know what Boeing is concerned about?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos