max999
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:27 am

Condolences to all those involved.

After the Lion Air crash, the AA and WN pilots unions were quite upset about Boeing's lack of communication about the new features in the MAX that could have caused the crash. I understand AA management also made a statement they were not happy either.

However unlike AA and WN, UA's management and pilots union did not seem to be troubled by the MAX. I think UA pilots will change their opinion now after this crash.
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sadiqutp
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:28 am

fr24 data for altitude and speed doesn't show any dramatic behavior after take off. Why don't we wait before jumping to conclusions?

Image
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 3613764609
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:30 am

And further to my last post, don’t forget Ethiopian lost a 737-800 as recently as 2010 due to pilot error. Let’s not jump to conclusions:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopi ... Flight_409
 
JoeCanuck
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:31 am

Flight ended at 8600' according to flightradar24. If accurate, it's not the same profile as the previous MAX accident...more like CFIT.
What the...?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:34 am

Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
sadiqutp
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:35 am

Initial indication of vertical speed being unstable

Image
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 8317362177
Last edited by sadiqutp on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:35 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Flight ended at 8600' according to flightradar24. If accurate, it's not the same profile as the previous MAX accident...more like CFIT.


Good point, but there is loss of altitude in the climb phase, and while troubleshooting that they could have ended in (seemingly) controlled flight into terrain.
 
Redd
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:

...what exactly do you "know right now" about this incident other than the operator and the aircraft type? And you want to ground a fleet worldwide based off of that?




Knowing that we don't know is the exact reason it should be grounded. Two of the same type of brand new airplane crashing within such short periods of each other..... Comet, DC-10, both with inherent design flaws. Now 737MAX needs to be figured out.

Would you get on a MAX without feeling nervous?

Because it went through a rigorous approval process and review by regulatory bodies on multiple continents that certified it as such within most foreseeable scenarios; thus placing the onus for revocation on proof that it is *not* safe.


So did the Comet, so did the DC-10. History has taught us that certification is not fullproof. To add to that, the 737MAX if I'm not mistaken, did not have to go through the rigors of a certification of a new airplane since much of it is grandfathered? (not sure I'm 100% correct here so feel free to correct me if I'm off)
Last edited by Redd on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:37 am

HAAB 100600Z 07010KT 9999 FEW025 18/09 Q1029
HAAB 100500Z 06008KT 9999 FEW025 16/10 Q1029
HAAB 100400Z 06008KT 9999 FEW025 13/11 Q1028

The last six hours worth of reported weather. No TAF accessable on the NOAA website.
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qf789
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:37 am

Could we please just debate the topic without making things personal nor making outlandish statements such as grounding the worldwide fleet or its definitely not the airlines fault without having evidence to back that up. Additionally be respectful to one another. Those coming here just to post comments such I will not fly the 737MAX, comments such as this do not contribute to the topic and will be removed
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Armodeen
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?


Because, as another poster pointed out above, aviation is an extremely risk averse industry which prides safety above everything else. It works on the principle that something has to be proved safe (rather than proved dangerous) before it is released for use.

I’m not convinced you can say that about the max right now until they get some early data on the cause.

But hey that’s my opinion. Like I said, it’s clear you disagree and that’s fine, it’s not like it changes anything what we think here :biggrin:
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:42 am

Flying Belgian wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
JQ321 wrote:
Hopefully not related at all to the JT610 Crash . However, all 737MAX Aircraft should be grounded till the cause is determined as seen in these two crashes there may be a design flaw. My condolences to all affected.


...is it a design flaw if it's intentional? They put the engines too far forward and have to rely on an apparently flawed electronic system to compensate. That said, we have zero details so far...

It's been some rough days lately for aviation, hope to hear some better news.


Interesting statement. Was this theory developed by anyone else ?

Maybe Boeing has pushed the 737 concept a "bit" too far...


It was discussed in the aftermath of JT610 that MCAS exists to compensate for the positioning of the engines. Using the old 737 frame with larger diameter engines forced them to put the engines in front of the wing, which messed with the overall balance of the 737. Yes they most certainly have taken the 737 to its limits.

We don't know yet if a similar issue caused this, but if so Boeing really needs to hurry up with their software fix. And a real clean sheet 737 replacement.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:43 am

Armodeen wrote:
Because, as another poster pointed out above, aviation is an extremely risk averse industry which prides safety above everything else. It works on the principle that something has to be proved safe (rather than proved dangerous) before it is released for use.

Except that aviation regulation doesn't, hasn't, and likely won't foreseeably, function that way.

Armodeen wrote:
Like I said, it’s clear you disagree and that’s fine, it’s not like it changes anything what we think here :biggrin:

Sure, but let's keep it even more real: not as though how the likes of "we think here," reflects what actually happens in airline regulation.
Nothing's getting grounded until they know more about what contributed.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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KLASM83
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:45 am

So sad!

Most importantly, condolences to those who died.

It's a rough few weeks for aviation. I shall eagerly as the cause is investigated.
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keitherson
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:46 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Blankbarcode wrote:
Interesting you can always rely on Legolas to inject some rudeness from the get-go

As stated before, the 787 was grounded for less.

(1) that ain't Legolas :lol:
(2) repeating a false statement, doesn't make it accurate.


runway23 wrote:
So to flip this around, how do you know for sure the 737Max is safe at this point ?

(Obvious) answer:
Because it went through a rigorous approval process and review by regulatory bodies on multiple continents that certified it as such within most foreseeable scenarios; thus placing the onus for revocation on proof that it is *not* safe.

Next question?


Next question is that of all ANet posters, why is it that you always get into arguments?

We don't know whether the 737MAX is safe or what the cause of the crash is. The same way we don't know where MH 370 is or why/how it crashed. The truth is that many people (rightfully or not) will not be flying 737 MAX planes the same way they will not fly Malaysia Airlines.
Last edited by keitherson on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:46 am

Flightradar24 tweets they tracked the flight for about 3 minutes only because of their coverage of the area is limited

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 3613764609
 
Redd
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:49 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Redd wrote:
Knowing that we don't know is the exact reason it should be grounded.

Wait, so not knowing the exact reason for a crash, the night that it happens, is reason for grounding?

These comments are getting less and less logical as they go.


Once again, look at the Comet, it had an inherent design flaw. If they had grounded the airplane earlier and had done the pressure hull tests it could have saved many lives. The fact that a brand new 737 has crashed twice in such a short period of time is the ultimate RED FLAG, and since we already know there are issues with the MAX, we can conclude that they may be more serious ones. Or, there may not be. But two crashes in such a short period of time, at the same/similar stages of flight indicates a good chance that there is.

Should more people potentially die before someone makes the decision?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:51 am

Redd wrote:
Should more people potentially die before someone makes the decision?

No. More facts should be garnered.

They're not going to ground all aircraft, the night of a crash, on a hunch. No regulatory body is going to make a risk-utility call in that manner. Never have, probably never will... regardless as to how you (or really anyone) feels about it. Not really sure how to make the concept more clear.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
UALWN
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:51 am

Incredibly sad and very worrisome. People might want to keep their heads in the sand, but this is eerily similar to the Lion AIr crash: two 737-8MAX that literally fall out of the sky soon after take off (the FR24 data stops at 8600 ft, yes, but that's three minutes before the crash; there's no FR24 data for the last three minutes of the flight). My son was coming home in a couple of weeks in a Norwegian MAX: I just bought him another ticket on easyJet.
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log0008
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:52 am

Must say i'm surprised we don't have any details or photos yet - the area isn't overly remove with plenty of small villages and farms.
 
Norlander
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:55 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Flight ended at 8600' according to flightradar24. If accurate, it's not the same profile as the previous MAX accident...more like CFIT.


As already has been posted here many times before your comment, ADD airport is 2,334 m / 7,625 ft AMSL
Last edited by Norlander on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AngMoh
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:56 am

Redd wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:

...what exactly do you "know right now" about this incident other than the operator and the aircraft type? And you want to ground a fleet worldwide based off of that?




Knowing that we don't know is the exact reason it should be grounded. Two of the same type of brand new airplane crashing within such short periods of each other..... Comet, DC-10, both with inherent design flaws. Now 737MAX needs to be figured out.

Would you get on a MAX without feeling nervous?

Because it went through a rigorous approval process and review by regulatory bodies on multiple continents that certified it as such within most foreseeable scenarios; thus placing the onus for revocation on proof that it is *not* safe.


So did the Comet, so did the DC-10. History has taught us that certification is not fullproof. To add to that, the 737MAX if I'm not mistaken, did not have to go through the rigors of a certification of a new airplane since much of it is grandfathered? (not sure I'm 100% correct here so feel free to correct me if I'm off)


When addressing theses issues, there are systematic techniques involved. Step 1 is asking the question what is the problem, where else can it occur and how do we contain it.

With Lion Air, there was no immediate concern. Yes the plane was new but the airlines has a worse than dubious track record. However, the aircraft data recorder made people sit up. A poorly documented feature caught poorly trained pilot off guard and many died. In the back of your mind, there is the question what else was poorly documented? Apart from MCAS acting weird, there is also the very scary issue of instrumentation being faulty (which caused MCAS to activate) with many different warnings and no standard repair as per manual seeming to be able to fix it.

Now there is a second crash and again it is pointing at aircraft issues. There are no obvious signs of pilots doing the wrong thing (e.g. taking off in poor conditions) although this is still possible. Normally, no concern, except it is the second aircraft of a new model, both new enough that maintenance is an unlikely factor, crashing at takeoff. This is an unlikely (but possible) coincidence. Grounding should be on the list of considerations and finding the data recorders is critical to make an informed decision.
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:56 am

Awful. I really hope it’s not related to the Lion Air crash, but I’m not gonna speculate until we have more info. Any word on casualty count?
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kabq737
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:59 am

Armodeen wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?


Because, as another poster pointed out above, aviation is an extremely risk averse industry which prides safety above everything else. It works on the principle that something has to be proved safe (rather than proved dangerous) before it is released for use.

I’m not convinced you can say that about the max right now until they get some early data on the cause.

But hey that’s my opinion. Like I said, it’s clear you disagree and that’s fine, it’s not like it changes anything what we think here :biggrin:

There are two viewpoints at play here and both of them have some very valid points :)

I feel that LAX772LR isn’t exactly helping his point through his writing and attitude toward others but his point is still valid as well.

It’ll be interesting to see what the powers that be decide should be done here. I’m sure they’ll sift through everything to make an educated decision. One thing is for sure though. Grounding will be CONSIDERED. I’m not saying it will happen but of course it will be discussed and considered by the regulatory bodies UNTIL it has been proven that this action is uneeded. In a sense both sides of this argument are valid.
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kabq737
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:01 am

InnsbruckFlyer wrote:
Awful. I really hope it’s not related to the Lion Air crash, but I’m not gonna speculate until we have more info. Any word on casualty count?

Last I saw was 153 from sky news but that is of course an early count.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:02 am

keitherson wrote:
It's kind of funny when avgeeks love airplanes more than human lives sometimes.

It's even funnier when people post ridiculous appeals to emotion as if they were anything other than fallacy.

Like this:
Redd wrote:
If it was your family or friends who died I'm sure you'd have a different attitude. Awfully cavalier towards other people lives you are.



....to which I hate to be the one to inform you, but that's how transportation works dude.
Insurance/liability is even worse. In this case, you have BOTH issues working.

Risk will never be zero, and you need an enormous shift in risk-utility before they're going to upset the rest of the market.

If a flaw is indeed determined likely, that binds both these crashes together, then by all means, the aircraft SHOULD BE GROUNDED. But to do that on the night of crash, when essentially nothing is known, because some clods on an aviation forum are shrieking about (what can only at this point be labeled) coincidental similarities? Hardly.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:04 am

AngMoh wrote:
Grounding should be on the list of considerations and finding the data recorders is critical to make an informed decision.

There we go, now THIS is an actually rational approach.

Others should take note.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jupiter2
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:04 am

keitherson wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Blankbarcode wrote:
Interesting you can always rely on Legolas to inject some rudeness from the get-go

As stated before, the 787 was grounded for less.

(1) that ain't Legolas :lol:
(2) repeating a false statement, doesn't make it accurate.


runway23 wrote:
So to flip this around, how do you know for sure the 737Max is safe at this point ?

(Obvious) answer:
Because it went through a rigorous approval process and review by regulatory bodies on multiple continents that certified it as such within most foreseeable scenarios; thus placing the onus for revocation on proof that it is *not* safe.

Next question?


Next question is that of all ANet posters, why is it that you always get into arguments?

We don't know whether the 737MAX is safe or what the cause of the crash is. The same way we don't know where MH 370 is or why/how it crashed. The truth is that many people (rightfully or not) will not be flying 737 MAX planes the same way they will not fly Malaysia Airlines.


Because he speaks logically and for some reason, too many people on this site resort to knee jerk reactions and comments. For his own health he would be better to let it pass, but in all seriousness, some comments already are truly absurd and should be called out for what they are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:04 am

Ethiopian has a good reputation as an airline, right ?
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ME720
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:06 am

Condolences to Ethiopian Airines, and to those affected by this crash. I hope that they will find survivors. Over 150 passengers and crew affected, I assume passengers from many countries who had transferred at Addis en route to Nairobi. Thoughts with the families and loved ones of those on board.
The debris has not even been located yet and some are jumping into conclusions. Few people above even referred to the human beings affected by this crash. Really shameful. We do not know anything yet. Only thing we can do at this moment is hope that they find survivors.
 
soectre99
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:07 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
So much for the impeccable saftey record of the 737 family. I'm not flying any MAX planes until the problem is definitely resolved. Better to be safe than sorry.


It is literally far safer to fly on a Max (taking into account these 2 incidents) than sitting in a car on the way to an airport.
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:07 am

As already touched upon, Addis sits on a plateau and is surrounded by peaks pretty much on all sides. From memory, the terrain immediately to the East exceeds 10 000ft. Further out the peaks start hitting 14 000ft.
Last edited by Chaostheory on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:07 am

Based on the fr24 raw data this does NOT appear to be MCAS related, unless there is another unreported MCAS mode that is different than what Boeing has stated post Lion Air crash. MCAS is not operating if flaps are down. The climb on this aircraft was only a few hundred feet AGL when the first descent occurs. In this part of the flight there should be flaps down, MCAS off, and a healthy rate of climb.

I suppose it is possible they took off with flaps up and had MCAS engage at 200 feet AGL but that would be very much in the pilot error bucket not airplane design flaw.
 
JQ321
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:09 am

qf789 wrote:
Could we please just debate the topic without making things personal nor making outlandish statements such as grounding the worldwide fleet or its definitely not the airlines fault without having evidence to back that up. Additionally be respectful to one another. Those coming here just to post comments such I will not fly the 737MAX, comments such as this do not contribute to the topic and will be removed

How is it outlandish to ground the world wide fleet . IF there is a design flaw they need to be grounded for the safety of the flying public. SAFETY ABOVE ALL ELSE.
 
sandbender
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:10 am

Jouhou wrote:
It was discussed in the aftermath of JT610 that MCAS exists to compensate for the positioning of the engines. Using the old 737 frame with larger diameter engines forced them to put the engines in front of the wing, which messed with the overall balance of the 737. Yes they most certainly have taken the 737 to its limits.


They haven't been "under" the wings of a 737 since they moved to the CFM56's on the 300 series. High bypass turbofans are "forward" of the wings on most (all?) modern airliners (*with wing mounted engines obviously).
Last edited by sandbender on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PW100
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:10 am

LAX772LR wrote:
RB211trent wrote:
then to read after two seemingly similar fatal accidents on the 737MAX people believe grounding is jumping the gun. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?


Well, there can be two reasons for grounding:
1) Because one knows exactly what's wrong, and find it unsafe to operate until the situation has been corrected;
2) Because one has no (good) idea of what is wrong, but statistics show accident rate to be so high that is no longer considered safe to operate.

I don't know if 737Max accident rate is such that 2) should be seriously considered. But I disagree with your suggestion that only 1) should be (valid) reason for considering grounding. Remember Comet grounding, where 2) was initiated - leading eventually to 1) . . . .
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Viper911
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:11 am

Per avherald:
"The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 8173 feet MSL at that position."
 
LY777
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:12 am

Well, don’t forget ET also crashed a 737NG at BEY
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:14 am

150 lives, hundreds of family members / friends have a deeply dark day & their lives changed forever. Very sad.

We don't know nothing yet.

Statically at 9000ft and 390 kts you are pretty save to work out eventualities. Except sudden catastrophic events.

The black boxes will tell us soon, they are laying around somewhere on soil beeping. .
Last edited by keesje on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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InnsbruckFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:14 am

Not jumping the gun here, but IF it is in fact a design flaw with the aircraft, let’s hope that Bowing can solve it like the 737 Classic rudder issues back when they were new. 737 Classics turned out to be very successful, despite the early challenges.
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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:14 am

Another max........totally what I feared when I saw 737.

Boeing I am sure has emergency meetings going on as we speak. This is too many for such a young plane there looks like either a design flaw or mandatory training needed.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:16 am

Well, since everyone is already talking about grounding the fleet, I'll add that grounding these won't be as catastrophic to airlines as, let's say, 787s, thanks to a ton of similarly sized aircraft available for use on the cheap that max pilots can fly simply because the 737 has been around for a long time and there's a whole lot of old 737s out there. Also Boeing is already working on a fix for the issue we are discussing on a speculative level.

Hopefully it doesn't end up being a completely different design issue. That would be worse for the max's reputation than if it was the same issue.
 
mig17
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:16 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Redd wrote:
Should more people potentially die before someone makes the decision?

No. More facts should be garnered.

They're not going to ground all aircraft, the night of a crash, on a hunch. No regulatory body is going to make a risk-utility call in that manner. Never have, probably never will... regardless as to how you (or really anyone) feels about it. Not really sure how to make the concept more clear.

When they are lifes in stake, you can't be sure. Even if you do not have enough evidence to take the right decision, you have to contain the situation.
Containment is the autorities prerogative. If they don't do it and something else happens, it is on them this time.
2 brand new plane of new design crashing a few month appart with 2 different carrier is largelly enough to consider grounding until Boeing prooves nor the design neither the production line are the cause.
By the way, Boeing could even be the one asking for the grounding, PR crisis.
Last edited by mig17 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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log0008
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:20 am

keesje wrote:
150 lives, hundreds of family members / friends have a deeply dark day & their lives changed forever. Very sad.

We don't know nothing yet.

Statically at 9000ft and 390 kts you are pretty save to work out eventualities. Except sudden catastrophic events.

The black boxes will tell us soon, they are laying around somewhere on soil beeping. .


Except when the ground is at 8000ft
 
spacecookie
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:20 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
....jump the gun much?

Tbh in this case knowing what we know about this incident right now I don’t think he is jumping the gun.

Wait, what?

...what exactly do you "know right now" about this incident other than the operator and the aircraft type? And you want to ground a fleet worldwide based off of that?

That's essentially the definition of jumping the gun.

Fly on a plane is so safe today because we learn from past errors, I am an 737 fanboy but yes they should ground them and don’t repeat an dc10 errors
 
SCFirefighter
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:20 am

Viper911 wrote:
Per avherald:
"The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 8173 feet MSL at that position."


Edit: I need to goto sleep. I can’t even read. Ignore this reply.

Pretty safe to say that’s extremely close to where it went down. Why? Elevation for those coordinates is 8,132ft MSL.
Last edited by SCFirefighter on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:21 am

Confirmed now that All 149 passengers and eight crew members on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight that crashed this morning are dead.

There were people from 33 different nationalities on board.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-africa-47513534
 
log0008
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:21 am

SCFirefighter wrote:
Viper911 wrote:
Per avherald:
"The last transponder data were received from position N9.027 E39.153 about 21nm east of Addis Ababa at FL086. Terrain elevation at that point is 8130 feet MSL, FL086 corrected for QNH indicates the aircraft was flying at 8173 feet MSL at that position."


Pretty safe to say that’s extremely close to where it went down. Why? Elevation for those coordinates is 8,132ft MSL.


If the altitude and corrected data is correct then the aircraft hardly reached 500ft any anytime during the flight.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:22 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Flight ended at 8600' according to flightradar24. If accurate, it's not the same profile as the previous MAX accident...more like CFIT.


8600' AGL it seems.

edit : I guess not
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sierrakilo44
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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737MAX crashes enroute to Nairobi

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:26 am

Aesma wrote:
Ethiopian has a good reputation as an airline, right ?


Actually they’ve fatally crashed a 738, this decade, just after take off, due to poor piloting. This to me looks more similar to today’s incident than the JT610 incident so maybe it’s an Ethiopian Airlines issue, not the MAX:

The final report released by the Lebanese Civil Aviation Authority stated that the flight crew mismanaged the aircraft's speed, altitude, and heading. The crew's flight control inputs were inconsistent and these resulted in the loss of control of the aircraft. The crew failed to abide by Crew Resource Management principles of mutual support and verbalizing deviations and this prevented any timely intervention and correction of the aircraft's flight path and maneuvers


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_409

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