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Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:42 pm

“The ministry should be ready to temporarily ground all Boeing 737 MAX 8 that are still operating in Indonesia in order to prevent more accidents”

.......following a fatal crash of an Ethiopian Airlines flight on Sunday, which killed 149 passengers and eight crew members in a town 60 kilometers southeast of Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa


Source: https://www.thejakartapost.com/amp/news/2019/03/10/ombudsman-official-demands-grounding-of-all-boeing-737-max-8-in-indonesia.html

That didn't take long.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:50 pm

Is the Indonesian Ombudsman purely an advisory role? How often are they followed?
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
Blerg
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:24 pm

Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?
 
anshabhi
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:27 pm

Indian DGCA has already withdrawn ETOPS for max and might go for something similar
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:38 pm

Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:01 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:04 pm

Indonesian officials have a strong reason to deflect blame away from their airline's mistakes. This demand is not a surprise, and it isn't credible.

Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes and no. Mechanically we know what happened, but exactly why and how it got to that point isn't known. Anyone who tells you they have the whole story is not being truthful.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:09 pm

Overreaction without more info.
@DadCelo
 
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Vio
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:46 pm

It's early on speculate, but two MAX8 crashes in less than a year, aircraft that are "state of the art" is not a good imagine for Boeing. I'm following this very closely, because we have a lot of 737 MAXs flying in Canada. Both AC and WS flies them. It's something that could potentially affect us. I'm sure they'll get to the bottom of this. I just hope with minimal impact on operations. As far as the latest crash in Ethiopia, condolences to the families of the passengers and crew.
Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:47 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Is this the cause? I didn't realize the aviation authorities had made any conclusions as to the cause of the Lion Air crash at this point.
 
PC12Fan
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Galwayman wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old


Oh for the love . . . . . . :roll:

OK, I'll admit I know next to nothing about MCAS, but if it is indeed behind these incidents it will be dealt with. Boeing won't stand for it to happen to one of the most popular aircraft in history.

But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.

With that logic, we should all get rid of all automobiles because they still are designed with 4 wheels. Give me a freakin' break.

I am now very reluctant to add anymore to this thread - I no longer want to be associated with the rest of the tripe being posted in here. :talktothehand:
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
buzzard302
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:00 pm

Holy cow. There is no official report yet released for the Lionair crash. People typing up stuff on here like it's a final conclusion are not doing anyone any favors.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:01 pm

JetBuddy wrote:

Yes. Boeing .........snippe di snip snip snip............................ didn't know about it.


Succinct description of the chain of cheese holes that aligned.
But we still need the "first cheese hole" aka the entry worm hole :-)
Why was replacing a defective AoA sensor not a sufficient remedy?
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:01 pm

I think calling for a halt to MAX operations without more information is premature, at best. We don't yet know what caused the crash, as others have repeatedly stated. However, I also think that the MCAS issue needs to be addressed and "fixed" by whatever means once and for all, if only to eliminate it as a cause of future crashes. Whether MCAS had a role in this crash or not, I suspect that Boeing will pull out all of the stops to address it and offer up that fix in record time after this tragedy. We also need to know if the pilots are properly trained to recognize and correct an MCAS runaway trim incident if one does occur. We know from the Lion Air crash that the standard runaway trim procedures should also correct an MCAS induced incident, but do the pilots fully recognize this? As a non-pilot I suspect that they certainly do here in North America and in Europe where regulations and training are typically held to a much higher standards, but is this also true in the Third World? I don't know, but I would like to be educated on that point. Thank you.
 
Trk1
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:03 pm

The Comet, The Electra, The Dc-10 were all grounded when accidents happened and fewer lives were lost in the same time frame. I fly every week and will now skip this aircraft until we get some resolution.
 
bgm
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:10 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old


Oh for the love . . . . . . :roll:

OK, I'll admit I know next to nothing about MCAS, but if it is indeed behind these incidents it will be dealt with. Boeing won't stand for it to happen to one of the most popular aircraft in history.

But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.

With that logic, we should all get rid of all automobiles because they still are designed with 4 wheels. Give me a freakin' break.

I am now very reluctant to add anymore to this thread - I no longer want to be associated with the rest of the tripe being posted in here. :talktothehand:


Oh, how wrong you are.

There are a MANY things that are the same as the original 737. Boeing wouldn't have been able to grandfather it into the new iterations otherwise. The 737 MAX as it is today would not be certified by the FAA if it wasn't for all the grandfathering from the previous versions.

Look at the cockpit. Look at the exit doors. The landing gear. Etc etc.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:12 pm

If it were clear that the MCAS system was or could likely be a factor in the Ethiopian crash, then yes, ground the fleet. But the factual information on the Ethiopian crash thus far -- sparse as it is -- does not seem to link to MCAS at this point.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:13 pm

Thought experiment:

Tesla delivers 350 examples of their new Model Y. The car has the latest iteration of the autopilot software. Two vehicles drive straight into a wall, only months apart. In the first incident, it's suspected faulty software or sensor. The second car nobody knows what happened yet - but many aspects are similar.

Should people who drive in these cars be concerned? Would these vehicles be recalled back to the dealer?

And please consider - a 737 MAX8 carries nearly 200 people. Not 5.
 
kalvado
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:17 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Is this the cause? I didn't realize the aviation authorities had made any conclusions as to the cause of the Lion Air crash at this point.

Mostly. There is some uncertainty about AoA sensor being defective or improperly replaced etc., but MCAS activation and pilots unprepared to deal with that is pretty official. Hot potato of responsibility - whether pilots should have been informed about MCS beforehand, or they should be able to deal with the issue without that info - is pushed around.
MCAS and strange way of handling air data in flight control computers are not disputed.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:34 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Yes and no. Mechanically we know what happened, but exactly why and how it got to that point isn't known. Anyone who tells you they have the whole story is not being truthful.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


Trk1 wrote:
The Comet, The Electra, The Dc-10 were all grounded when accidents happened and fewer lives were lost in the same time frame.

Sure, but also (with the exception of one) MORE INFORMATION was also garnered, that both IDENTIFIED the contributory cause and importantly LINKED IT to other incidents.
Amazing how people keep leaving that part out.

The DC10 for example, wasn't grounded until both the sheared pylon bolt was found, and similar jamming in four other aircraft by two other airlines, was identified. That was 12 days after AA191... not the day of the crash.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ELBOB
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:46 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.


I suggest that you talk to the FAA about that, before you drop out of the thread. Ask them why TCDS A16WE covers all 737 series from -100 to -9. 14 variants in 64 document revisions:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... enDocument

Isn't that a nice cushy arrangement between the regulator and the regulated? It should never have been permitted as of the -300 and certainly not for the rewinged NG.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Yes and no. Mechanically we know what happened, but exactly why and how it got to that point isn't known. Anyone who tells you they have the whole story is not being truthful.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:


Trk1 wrote:
The Comet, The Electra, The Dc-10 were all grounded when accidents happened and fewer lives were lost in the same time frame.

Sure, but also (with the exception of one) MORE INFORMATION was also garnered, that both IDENTIFIED the contributory cause and importantly LINKED IT to other incidents.
Amazing how people keep leaving that part out.

The DC10 for example, wasn't grounded until both the sheared pylon bolt was found, and similar jamming in four other aircraft by two other airlines, was identified. That was 12 days after AA191... not the day of the crash.


Amazing how off reason people can be. Not knowing the cause is exactly a reason to ground. A 12 days process to ground a type is pretty fast for a slow moving bureaucracy.
The Comet was grounded at its time precisely because no cause for the accidents was found, I mean the accidents while cruising, not the two accidents directly at take off when they failed to become airborne due to loss of lift at high angles of attack.

I do not say that the 737-8 should be grounded right away. But not knowing the reason for an accident, is not a reason to refrain from grounding.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:05 pm

Pretty sure if even one of these had been an AA or European-operated plane that crashed, they would've already been grounded. The ET crash is far more alarming to me than JT. JT admitted faults with the plane on prior flights and while they'd seemed to have it together of late, we all know about their overall record. ET on the other hand run a first-rate operation by all accounts. They certainly don't normally have planes fall out of the sky inexplicably.
 
LY777
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:45 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Pretty sure if even one of these had been an AA or European-operated plane that crashed, they would've already been grounded. The ET crash is far more alarming to me than JT. JT admitted faults with the plane on prior flights and while they'd seemed to have it together of late, we all know about their overall record. ET on the other hand run a first-rate operation by all accounts. They certainly don't normally have planes fall out of the sky inexplicably.

Don’t forget the 2010 crash in BEY
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
speedbird52
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:48 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Pretty sure if even one of these had been an AA or European-operated plane that crashed, they would've already been grounded. The ET crash is far more alarming to me than JT. JT admitted faults with the plane on prior flights and while they'd seemed to have it together of late, we all know about their overall record. ET on the other hand run a first-rate operation by all accounts. They certainly don't normally have planes fall out of the sky inexplicably.

At the risk of being called a bleeding heart soyboy liberal, I will say that a lot of people who immediately think Ethiopian are to blame are thinking like that because of their preexisting biases against Africa. I am not saying poor maintenance or pilot error is not possible, but Ethiopians record in particular does not suggest it. It is also incredibly strange that it was on a MAX again.
 
itisi
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I think calling for a halt to MAX operations without more information is premature, at best. We don't yet know what caused the crash, as others have repeatedly stated. However, I also think that the MCAS issue needs to be addressed and "fixed" by whatever means once and for all, if only to eliminate it as a cause of future crashes. Whether MCAS had a role in this crash or not, I suspect that Boeing will pull out all of the stops to address it and offer up that fix in record time after this tragedy. We also need to know if the pilots are properly trained to recognize and correct an MCAS runaway trim incident if one does occur. We know from the Lion Air crash that the standard runaway trim procedures should also correct an MCAS induced incident, but do the pilots fully recognize this? As a non-pilot I suspect that they certainly do here in North America and in Europe where regulations and training are typically held to a much higher standards, but is this also true in the Third World? I don't know, but I would like to be educated on that point. Thank you.


Third world..... What a Muppet.
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
itisi
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:51 pm

"It's highly suspicious," said Mary Schiavo, a CNN aviation analyst and the former Inspector General of the U.S. Transportation Department. "Here we have a brand-new aircraft that's gone down twice in a year. That rings alarm bells in the aviation industry, because that just doesn't happen."
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:54 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.

I’m tired of this nonsense that the 737 is a 50 year old plane. New tail, new wings new cockpit for the NG over 20 years ago. Neither the Max not the NG is just simply a 737-200 with fancy upgrades
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Amazing how off reason people can be. Not knowing the cause is exactly a reason to ground. .

Well that first sentence is definitely a case of unintended self-reflection: your statement is utterly ridiculous.

Not knowing is only a reason to ground if a REASONABLY INQUIRY couldn't reveal the answer. You don't even know if the crashes have even a REMOTE relationship at this point... or scratch that, you're inconsequential: REGULATORS didn't even know if the crashes were remotely related, before people here started calling for grounding. How do I know, because they hadn't even found the crash site at that point.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:57 pm

ELBOB wrote:
PC12Fan wrote:
The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.


I suggest that you talk to the FAA about that, before you drop out of the thread. Ask them why TCDS A16WE covers all 737 series from -100 to -9. 14 variants in 64 document revisions:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guid ... enDocument

Isn't that a nice cushy arrangement between the regulator and the regulated? It should never have been permitted as of the -300 and certainly not for the rewinged NG.

So now we have a poster already assigning blame for the crashes.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Third world..... What a Muppet.


Well, thank you for that incredibly unhelpful and borderline insulting comment. It was a fair question. Its also true that technical and maintenance skills in Third World (yes, that's still the term used by many governments today; you can say "developing world" all you want, but Third World is even used at the UN very often) are generally less than they are in the First World. Ethiopian tends to be far better than the rest of Africa in terms of maintenance and technical skills, or so I've read, but how much? Again, it was a fair question.
 
sagechan
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:02 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old


Oh for the love . . . . . . :roll:

OK, I'll admit I know next to nothing about MCAS, but if it is indeed behind these incidents it will be dealt with. Boeing won't stand for it to happen to one of the most popular aircraft in history.

But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.

With that logic, we should all get rid of all automobiles because they still are designed with 4 wheels. Give me a freakin' break.

I am now very reluctant to add anymore to this thread - I no longer want to be associated with the rest of the tripe being posted in here. :talktothehand:


Agrees overaction, though also rational to really exam MAX performance as real information comes in on these two crashes. 2 isn't a sample size large enough to make any recommendations without the investigative anyalsis.

Also cars should be banned because they kill 1.25 million a year worldwide, destroy the environment, waste space in urban environments and cost individuals and taxpayers insane amount of money to own operate and subsidize infrastructure!
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
ltbewr
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:14 pm

As I suggested in the main ET crash thread and to expand it.

1) Boeing should suspend new production starts and deliveries of 737 MAX models immediately until more is known about what caused the ET and Lion Air crashes. Expensive but means other sub-model production continues.

2) Put out an advisory to all MAX operators that pilots may have to change procedures and be especially alert while in the initial climb in flight to make sure automated systems are operating correctly and may have to take manual actions to correct possible problems, giving suggested procedures.

3) Seek out info from current MAX's in service, from reports of other incidents during initial climb stages of flight of issues, do sample reviews of FDR's from current operators of MAX models to see if glitches in the operating software or hardware or other problems.

This model has been in service for maybe 2 years, with 100's of flights per day and while 2 deadly losses have occurred, to ground those in operation may be unnecessary and too disrupted.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:16 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


/thread
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
Bostrom
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:22 pm

bgm wrote:

Oh, how wrong you are.

There are a MANY things that are the same as the original 737. Boeing wouldn't have been able to grandfather it into the new iterations otherwise. The 737 MAX as it is today would not be certified by the FAA if it wasn't for all the grandfathering from the previous versions.

Look at the cockpit. Look at the exit doors. The landing gear. Etc etc.


What is it with the cockpit, doors and landing gear that would stop it from being certified today?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:24 pm

Trk1 wrote:
The Comet, The Electra, The Dc-10 were all grounded when accidents happened and fewer lives were lost in the same time frame. I fly every week and will now skip this aircraft until we get some resolution.

Five Comet accidents had already occurred before the sixth accident that finally grounded the airplane. Only two of those six accidents were caused by the design flaw that grounded the airplane. (And grounding was certainly justified, they just didn't know it at the time).

The Electra was never grounded.

The DC-10 was not grounded when the design flaws were made apparent. Namely, the bulk cargo door latch + inadequate venting of the rear cabin floor + routing control cables through that same floor. It was only grounded 5 years later after the AA accident in ORD. In fact, several countries and airlines defied the grounding within a week. I remember Swissair publicly stating that they will not continue grounding the aircraft when clearly the cause was that American Airlines maintained them incorrectly.

And that really is the point. In all cases you state ... the Comet, the Electra and the DC-10 ... the aircraft was not grounded when it was warranted. But when it was grounded, it appeared to be a political statement rather than bound in fact. And with Indonesia calling for grounding of the Max8, it sounds like the same thing is going on.

Now ... if after review of the FDR and CVR, actual similarities appear, then yes, I agree grounding should be considered.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
freakyrat
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:31 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
If it were clear that the MCAS system was or could likely be a factor in the Ethiopian crash, then yes, ground the fleet. But the factual information on the Ethiopian crash thus far -- sparse as it is -- does not seem to link to MCAS at this point.


Flightradar24 and Ethiopian ATC showed that the aircraft was only 20 feet off the ground in the area they were flying over.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:51 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Thought experiment:

Tesla delivers 350 examples of their new Model Y. The car has the latest iteration of the autopilot software. Two vehicles drive straight into a wall, only months apart. In the first incident, it's suspected faulty software or sensor. The second car nobody knows what happened yet - but many aspects are similar.

Should people who drive in these cars be concerned? Would these vehicles be recalled back to the dealer?


If they drove into crowds and killed over 300 people, maybe.
@DadCelo
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:15 pm

longhauler wrote:
Trk1 wrote:
The Comet, The Electra, The Dc-10 were all grounded when accidents happened and fewer lives were lost in the same time frame. I fly every week and will now skip this aircraft until we get some resolution.

Five Comet accidents had already occurred before the sixth accident that finally grounded the airplane. Only two of those six accidents were caused by the design flaw that grounded the airplane. (And grounding was certainly justified, they just didn't know it at the time).

The Electra was never grounded.

The DC-10 was not grounded when the design flaws were made apparent. Namely, the bulk cargo door latch + inadequate venting of the rear cabin floor + routing control cables through that same floor. It was only grounded 5 years later after the AA accident in ORD. In fact, several countries and airlines defied the grounding within a week. I remember Swissair publicly stating that they will not continue grounding the aircraft when clearly the cause was that American Airlines maintained them incorrectly.

And that really is the point. In all cases you state ... the Comet, the Electra and the DC-10 ... the aircraft was not grounded when it was warranted. But when it was grounded, it appeared to be a political statement rather than bound in fact. And with Indonesia calling for grounding of the Max8, it sounds like the same thing is going on.

Now ... if after review of the FDR and CVR, actual similarities appear, then yes, I agree grounding should be considered.


The comet was involved in 5 different accidents, but for the first three accidents the causes were determined,

The first two accident, was determined as pilot errors. Over rotation. It was later determined that the comet did not handle well at high angle of attack with loss of lift and loss of thrust. Changes were done to wing and engine inlet to make the handling more robust.
Third accident was determined due to severe turbulence in a thunderstorm resulting in over stressing the aircraft.

Now we get to the two accidents at cruise that resulted in the grounding of the Comet 1. Not five or six, but two, because the earlier accidents are unrelated and causes had been determined.
BOAC grounded the Comet 1 after there own accident, BOAC Flight 781. The accident was researched no failure found and the grounding lifted.
Than came accident number 2, South African Airways Flight 201 and the whole fleet was grounded.

Those accidents were the trigger for groundbreaking research. A new Comet frame was taken and tested to destruction. The faults compared to the faults found on the crashed frames. It was determined that fatigue was the reason for the loss of the frames.

My point to the above, the Comet 1 was grounded after only one unexplained accident by the airline using most of them at the time. The whole fleet was grounded after the second unexplained accident.

The discussion is now about if it is sensible to ground a new type after two unexplained crashes, I would say yes, if the causes for both accidents are not found in a rather short time frame.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:26 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
So now we have a poster already assigning blame for the crashes.


What # in the Schopenhauer list is that?

I am not a native speaker but that poster didn't write that.
What he wrote is that the grandfathering process as practiced by Boeing and the lockstepped FAA is faulty.
I concur.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
So now we have a poster already assigning blame for the crashes.


What # in the Schopenhauer list is that?

I am not a native speaker but that poster didn't write that.
What he wrote is that the grandfathering process as practiced by Boeing and the lockstepped FAA is faulty.
I concur.

How do you know the FAA certification process is faulty? What is your background ?
 
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longhauler
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Those accidents were the trigger for groundbreaking research. A new Comet frame was taken and tested to destruction. The faults compared to the faults found on the crashed frames. It was determined that fatigue was the reason for the loss of the frames.

My point to the above, the Comet 1 was grounded after only one unexplained accident by the airline using most of them at the time. The whole fleet was grounded after the second unexplained accident.

The discussion is now about if it is sensible to ground a new type after two unexplained crashes, I would say yes, if the causes for both accidents are not found in a rather short time frame.

Thanks for your input. I have always been fascinated by the Comet 1, as the Commander of the first over rotation accident was the best friend of my father, (also an airline pilot). Then the company for whom I flew (albeit a lot later) also purchased the Comet 1 and endured the second over rotation accident. I was under the impression though, that the pilots in both accidents were eventally exonerated of blame.

But as this thread is about grounding in general and not specifically the Max8, one has to look at previous occurrences. In my opinion, the Brits handled the Comet 1 accidents perfectly and prudently.

However, some accidents were not.

As I said above, the Electra was never grounded even though it was known a flaw existed, but they didn't know what! That astounds me! I can't imagine it today. I also can't imagine that when the CEO of National Airlines said privately that National was going to stop flying the airplane until a cause was found, other airlines' CEOs pleaded with him not to do it ... because, then everyone would have to stop flying theirs.

The DC-10 was tantamount to manslaughter. After the first AA incident (over Windsor ON) when design flaws were identified, a fix was fashioned. McDD "promised" the FAA that all new DC-10s would be built with the fix intact and exiting ones would be fixed quickly if they didn't ground the aircraft. But the "promise" was hollow, as the Turkish DC-10 that crashed in Paris was not fixed, even though it was nearing final assembly as these back room deals were being made.

So enter the Max 8. I would guess, the Ethiopian crash information should be available to officials very quickly. If it does appear a flaw exists ... like the Comet 1 was, and like the Electra and DC-10 should have been ... grounding will likely follow.

(I am aware the DC-10 was eventually grounded five years later. But to me, that was a "political grounding", as the FAA was caught with their pants down earlier).
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:55 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
So now we have a poster already assigning blame for the crashes.


What # in the Schopenhauer list is that?

I am not a native speaker but that poster didn't write that.
What he wrote is that the grandfathering process as practiced by Boeing and the lockstepped FAA is faulty.
I concur.

How do you know the FAA certification process is faulty? What is your background ?


Ah, another Schopenhauer.
But
787 ( that was a rather unpretty cleanup of the battery system design and layout )
and 737MAX ( FAA certified a system with no redundancy or fault indication that is instrumental to save flight.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
ABpositive
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:09 pm

sagechan wrote:
Agrees overaction, though also rational to really exam MAX performance as real information comes in on these two crashes. 2 isn't a sample size large enough to make any recommendations without the investigative anyalsis.


These are not just two crashes. They both occurred at similar flight stages, good weather and similar manifestations. While it is too early to exactly state the causes, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to ignore the need for greater caution.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:16 pm

Ethiopian are flying the MAX as we speak and have not felt the need to ground them. Nor have Lion.
 
ytz
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:05 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.


And yet the FAA and EASA gave them a type certificate based on commonality.....
 
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spinotter
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:41 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Have they figured out why the Indonesian MAX crashed?


Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Very clear explanation, thank you. Do you know of a source with a more detailed explanation of MCAS and how the Lion Air pilots might have reacted to such an unknown? Has the flight data recorder been found and in good condition?

Would the Ethiopian pilots have been aware of MCAS since the first accident?

And finally, it seems to me that Boeing is going to have to pay out a lot, at least for Lion Air. How is it possible not to have trained the MAX pilots on MCAS?
 
oschkosch
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:46 pm

FlapsOne wrote:
Ethiopian are flying the MAX as we speak and have not felt the need to ground them. Nor have Lion.
and that is now over, with all Chinese airlines, Lion, ET and others having grounded their Max fleets. UA offering passengers free of charge rebooking in case they don't want to fly on a Max. Unions in the USA telling flight attendants that they also will not be forced to work on the Max.

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spinotter
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:50 pm

PC12Fan wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Yes. Boeing decided to put large latest generation engines on a 50 year old airplane which was originally designed to fly 100 people 500 nm. They were able to do this by moving the engines forward, lifting the nose up a few inches, and change the tail cone.. This caused the airplane's handling characteristics to change. Essentially the plane had a tendency to lift the nose. So the Boeing engineers tried to remedy the situation by programming the airplane's MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) to help the pilots bring the nose down in case the nose drifted too high. The problem was that this wasn't even written in the Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) and crew didn't know about it.


Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old


Oh for the love . . . . . . :roll:

OK, I'll admit I know next to nothing about MCAS, but if it is indeed behind these incidents it will be dealt with. Boeing won't stand for it to happen to one of the most popular aircraft in history.

But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.

With that logic, we should all get rid of all automobiles because they still are designed with 4 wheels. Give me a freakin' break.

I am now very reluctant to add anymore to this thread - I no longer want to be associated with the rest of the tripe being posted in here. :talktothehand:


For me it is not tripe. Sure, some of it is speculation, but the idea of MCAS as a factor at least for Lion Air sounds credible to me, but what do I know? Do other people have different speculative hypotheses? We are not the FAA or a court - we are allowed to speculate, are we not? Eventually we may know for sure what caused the crash - mechanical, electronic, human - but maybe not - MH370?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Ombudsman official demands grounding of all Boeing 737 MAX 8 in Indonesia

Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:04 pm

sagechan wrote:
PC12Fan wrote:
Galwayman wrote:

Thank you - that’s really informative and interesting. They may have pushed the envelop on a design that is too old


Oh for the love . . . . . . :roll:

OK, I'll admit I know next to nothing about MCAS, but if it is indeed behind these incidents it will be dealt with. Boeing won't stand for it to happen to one of the most popular aircraft in history.

But to say that the 737 is dangerous because it is based on a 50 year old design is nothing short of laughable. The MAX has virtually nothing in common with the 100. The only thing really in common is the fuselage cross section and even that has been redesigned for the extra forces being put on it. Common, that's basic aero engineering 101.

With that logic, we should all get rid of all automobiles because they still are designed with 4 wheels. Give me a freakin' break.

I am now very reluctant to add anymore to this thread - I no longer want to be associated with the rest of the tripe being posted in here. :talktothehand:


Agrees overaction, though also rational to really exam MAX performance as real information comes in on these two crashes. 2 isn't a sample size large enough to make any recommendations without the investigative anyalsis.

Also cars should be banned because they kill 1.25 million a year worldwide, destroy the environment, waste space in urban environments and cost individuals and taxpayers insane amount of money to own operate and subsidize infrastructure!


You are absolutely right about cars being banned. It should be walking, bicycling, or public transportation for the entire human race ONLY. But we humans do not have the foresight or the wisdom to implement such a shift, even though it might save us.

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