PixelPilot
Posts: 252
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:48 am

okie73 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A rookie chef would not be able to handle the knife skills of a seasoned Japanese hibachi chef. A well-trained and confidant pilot will have no issue handling an issue on the 737Max. The procedure for disabling the trim has remained the same since the 1960's.



I love how people who are not airline pilots suggest how easy it should be to deal with this problem. Climb into a simulator and deal with these problems......knowing it’s coming. Ok, not pretty but you got it done. Now, in the aircraft, where you did not spend the last hour briefing what you were going to see (like in the simulator). It’s not easy. Sure, there are procedures to deal with a malfunction of the MCAS. Why is nobody talking about the fact that the system should not malfunction in the first place??


How you know it is MCAS in the first place considering that at that stage of flight they should have been on flaps and MCAS can't activate in this condition??
I might be wrong but how come you are so sure? Magic powers or interwebz specialist?
Last edited by PixelPilot on Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:49 am

okie73 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

A rookie chef would not be able to handle the knife skills of a seasoned Japanese hibachi chef. A well-trained and confidant pilot will have no issue handling an issue on the 737Max. The procedure for disabling the trim has remained the same since the 1960's.



I love how people who are not airline pilots suggest how easy it should be to deal with this problem. Climb into a simulator and deal with these problems......knowing it’s coming. Ok, not pretty but you got it done. Now, in the aircraft, where you did not spend the last hour briefing what you were going to see (like in the simulator). It’s not easy. Sure, there are procedures to deal with a malfunction of the MCAS. Why is nobody talking about the fact that the system should not malfunction in the first place??


My instructor pulled the engine power and various other simulated issues on me without any notice. You obviously do not know what you are talking about. They do not give you a heads up for an issue they have trained you to handle.
 
RawSushi
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:50 am

Singapore regulators to ground the MAX too

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... ines-crash
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:58 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
LeoNYC wrote:
To me the answer to this question is a no brainer -or course they should. Until more is know our of abundance of caution, ground all the 737 Max flights. Once more information comes out they can revisit the decision. It is likely that it's a combination of a technical issue and air pilot error. Perhaps more training for the pilots will be required. I am surpirsed the airline unions did not demand the FAA to ground the flights. I am sure some crew members are not too happy to work on these planes at this moment.


A rookie chef would not be able to handle the knife skills of a seasoned Japanese hibachi chef. A well-trained and confidant pilot will have no issue handling an issue on the 737Max. The procedure for disabling the trim has remained the same since the 1960's.


This is such nonsense. Context matters. It's not as simple as you say. And there's pilots on pprune who are far more charitable on this than you. And they actually fly the type.

I think you know it's a little more complex than that, when you're a 1000' off the deck and you have erroneous airspeed errors possibly combined with stall warning, stick shaker and a whole lot else. This isn't some regular runaway trim where you can just identify the issue and run the checklist.
Last edited by ytz on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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DexSwart
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:01 am

Comair has chosen to voluntarily suspend operations of the 737 MAX.

MN released a statement on it via FaceBook. https://www.facebook.com/145976583494/posts/10156460476918495?sfns=mo.

They say that they remain confident in the aircrafts safety but will liaise with “Boeing, other operators, and technical experts”.

Has any country or airline chosen to suspend or ground the MAX 9 as well? Or just the 8?

Also: apologies for poor editing, I posted this from my phone.
Durban. Melbourne. Denver. Hong Kong.
 
Rustbelt
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:02 am

I wonder if how much of this incident involving 737 MAX 8 was investigated. The article is not very specific about what type of "technical failure" this plane had. This incident did not cause crash....

https://www.narcity.com/news/sunwing-ju ... -the-plane
 
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unrave
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:02 am

RawSushi wrote:
Singapore regulators to ground the MAX too

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... ines-crash

Not just that, Singapore has suspended ALL MAX operations to/from SIN. This would affect foreign carriers too.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3140
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:03 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Wow

Major props to the airliners.net community for finding out the cause of the ET crash within 12hrs.
And then quickly implementing a worldwide grounding of 300+ aircraft.

You have saved a lot of lives today airplane fans.....bravo!


Here is infotrmation on the Comet airliner from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

However, within a year of entering airline service, problems started to emerge, with three Comets lost within twelve months in highly publicised accidents, after suffering catastrophic in-flight break-ups. Two of these were found to be caused by structural failure resulting from metal fatigue in the airframe, a phenomenon not fully understood at the time.

Bet a lot of people are glad they made that call. Once they found the sharply square cut window frames on a pressurized frames caused metal fatigue it saved a lot of lives.

Both 737max's had pitch down, followed by sharp climbs & then nose dive to impact. For such a short time in operation it's too much risk to ignore. Better to stop operations and get the fix right than to do a band aid "ie how to work around the issue" and hope for a correction before another 150+ people die. If they don't it looks suspect that profits trueley are more important now than safety.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:03 am

I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:05 am

DexSwart wrote:

Has any country or airline chosen to suspend or ground the MAX 9 as well? Or just the 8?

.


Don't think grounding the MAX 9 and M10 is warranted. It's entirely possible (and likely IMHO) that some of handling characteristics and behaviour are particular to the MAX 8.
 
hitchy81
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:06 am

AeroMexico just grounded its 737 Max fleet also:

https://www.sinembargo.mx/11-03-2019/3548904
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:08 am

ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:08 am

UA's social media team has for sure been working overtime to distance themselves from the 7M8, emphasizing with every tweet that they operate the MAX 9, not the 8.
@DadCelo
 
NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:10 am

How do the American airlines justify not grounding the plane with so many airlines around the world doing so, if a 737 max crashes on a American airline which didn't ground the plane they will get sued into bankruptcy
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:10 am

ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


Not singling you out. Others have the same opinion. I have the same question for anyone that thinks grounding isn't warranted.

What's your number? How many frames need to crash under similar circumstances before you'd call for a precautionary grounding?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:11 am

ikarlson wrote:
I will believe when American Airlines, Southwest, Norwegian or Air Canada will ground MAX planes, right now its politics by China to ground MAX.

I see some interesting correlations with all those airlines...
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:12 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


LOL @ defamation suit. Any operator can choose not to fly an airplane they own. I'd like to see Boeing sue one of their customers for defamation. How many sales do they want to give Airbus?

I'd just like confirmation that the crashes aren't similar. They just sound too alike to dismiss.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:16 am

ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


LOL @ defamation suit. Any operator can choose not to fly an airplane they own. I'd like to see Boeing sue one of their customers for defamation. How many sales do they want to give Airbus?

I'd just like confirmation that the crashes aren't similar. They just sound too alike to dismiss.


It happens all the time. A crazy lady in my town once claimed one of the restaurants sent her to the hospital from food poisoning. Turns out it was a hoax. The restaurant slapped her with a defamation suit and was seeking damages. These airlines are claiming Boeing is at fault before the flames were put out.
 
downdata
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


Why would any airline outside of the US or other countries “listen” to the FAA as its a domestic agency. And of course FAA already had a history of shobby creditability covering up design and manufacturing defects in the past. They have been criticised by agencies including the NTSB for inadequate oversight of the industry.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:21 am

downdata wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


Why would any airline outside of the US or other countries “listen” to the FAA as its a domestic agency. And of course FAA already had a history of shobby creditability covering up design and manufacturing defects in the past. They have been criticised by agencies including the NTSB for inadequate oversight of the industry.


So never? I guess they could be used as fire trainers. Very expensive fire trainers...
 
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OA412
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.

Don’t be ridiculous. The airlines will not face a defamation suit for grounding the aircraft. It doesn’t work that way in the real world.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
blooc350
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:30 am

Silk Air just grounded their 737 MAX. Good job SIA!
 
lizhien
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:32 am

blooc350 wrote:
Silk Air just grounded their 737 MAX. Good job SIA!

Not the airline. The authority.
 
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qf789
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:32 am

sibibom wrote:
maint123 wrote:
patches wrote:
A question for all the experts out there. American , SW and United all fly the 737 Max. What, they have 75 or so planes in the air everyday? Have any of these 3 US airlines reported any prolems with the flight control systems like the system that downed Lion Air? Have any US pilots said the Max is trickey to fly? Or are these 3rd world airlines pilots just not skilled at flying a modern airliner like the Max?

The 3rd world pilot of this plane had 8300 hrs of experience in other 737s esp the NG. That translates to 83 months of flying ie 7 years at 100 hrs per month. But suddenly with the new max he became incompetent in a few months ? A max is certified as essentially a 737NG requiring no separate simulator training. Awaiting your valuable response.


I do not understand this site's moderation policy, My comment of blind fanboyism is deleted, however blatant racism is acceptable. Strange times we live in.


Did you report the post? No. You really cant appreciate how busy we have been over the past 36 hours and it would be helpful to us if you reported any violating posts rather than whining about it. Furthermore the post is not racist, so please do not go around saying it is racist when its not. If you want to discuss this further email the moderators at [email protected]
Forum Moderator
 
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flee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 am

Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore has now decided to ground the 737 Max.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... r-11334980

https://www.caas.gov.sg/about-caas/news ... singapore/
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 am

ytz wrote:
DexSwart wrote:

Has any country or airline chosen to suspend or ground the MAX 9 as well? Or just the 8?

.


Don't think grounding the MAX 9 and M10 is warranted. It's entirely possible (and likely IMHO) that some of handling characteristics and behaviour are particular to the MAX 8.

If the MAX 8 is grounded, they all have to be grounded. They all have MCAS which appears to be the potential Achilles heal of the MAX (unless Boeing can come up with an effective software fix).
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speedbird52
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 am

PixelPilot wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Unfortunately in this “everything is viral” era, Boeing and the North American airlines are creating a huge mess for themselves by not grounding the planes.... go on and head to their social media accounts... its brutal..

Hope this get resolved quickly, so unfair for Boeing as they have more rights than (unconfirmed) “wrongs”. Tvey made the 787 which is a work of art and a huge achievement in aviation in the past two decades.


In today's age, blame and accusations go first. Facts are not that important anymore. People have safe spaces in colleges that they attend to cause of a presidential election and I can go on forever. People think that just cause x number of other interwebz users agree with their point of view then it magically becomes reality.
And I don't mean that B is clear of anything but for ffs people should really start looking at facts before throwing stones and so far we don't have much if any undeniable facts as of to what caused those crashes.
If you want to avoid flying on Max then just look for alternatives while people hired to find out the culprit of the accidents do their jobs.

I need a safe space from the word safe space
 
nikeherc
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:49 am

D L X wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
I understand the concern that there might be a problem with the Max, and I can even understand that there might be a case for grounding. I cannot accept that the case has been made by people who don’t know how MCAS works, or by people that claim that the two accidents have the same cause without any evidence to that yet developed.


So, you're fine with the message, but you don't like the messengers?


No, I have a problem with a message that is based upon a misunderstanding of the systems involved.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
lizhien
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 am

flee wrote:
Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore has now decided to ground the 737 Max.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/si ... r-11334980

https://www.caas.gov.sg/about-caas/news ... singapore/

I think this is more significant than the CAAC grounding. CAAS is suspending all 737 Max flights into and out of the country.
 
lutfi
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:54 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
I’m still of the mindset that these groundings are a bit premature and a bit unnecessary, but I completely respect the decisions of those that have. I think it’s just a massive domino effect that started with the CAAC.


I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


CAAS and CAAC are government regulatory bodies. Good luck in suing them for defamation for deciding to ground 737s.
 
NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 am

The dominos are falling and the social media pressure is too much right now, I suspect American companies to ground the plane this week, go look at AA twitter they are getting destroyed about safety. Now with the CAAS suspension, this is becoming more legit by the second.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:56 am

RawSushi wrote:
Singapore regulators to ground the MAX too

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/ ... ines-crash

Another 6 grounded, make it 139 out of service now. To make things worse, MI retired their relatively new A320 series to build an entirely new B737NG/B73M fleet. 14 out of 17 737NG will leave for TR by 2021, guess that will be delayed if Boeing can't find a fix soon.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
lutfi
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:56 am

Plus CAAS is banning all MAX variants

The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) is temporarily suspending operation of all variants of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft into and out of Singapore in light of two fatal accidents involving Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in less than five months. The suspension will take effect from 1400hrs, 12 March 2019.

SilkAir, which operates 6 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, will be affected by the temporary suspension. The other airlines currently operating Boeing 737 MAX aircraft to Singapore are China Southern Airlines, Garuda Indonesia, Shandong Airlines and Thai Lion Air. CAAS is working with Changi Airport Group and the affected airlines to minimise any impact to travelling passengers.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:59 am

ytz wrote:
DexSwart wrote:

Has any country or airline chosen to suspend or ground the MAX 9 as well? Or just the 8?

.


Don't think grounding the MAX 9 and M10 is warranted. It's entirely possible (and likely IMHO) that some of handling characteristics and behaviour are particular to the MAX 8.


First, the Max 10 hasn’t even been built yet so it’s kind of hard to ground it. Yes MCAS works the same on the -9 as it works on the -8. The handling characteristics are the same.

Just out of curiousity, what makes you think it’s likely the -9 has different handling characteristics than the -8?

Having said that, no-one has determined what caused the ET crash yet, except for a bunch of self-proclaimed experts on A.net.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:01 am

Here is the FAA Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community (CANIC) on Boeing 787-8:

https://www.scribd.com/document/4016332 ... -787-Max-8

Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community

To: Civil Aviation Authorities Date: March 11, 2019

From: Federal Aviation Administration
Aircraft Certification Service System Oversight Division, AIR-800
2200 South 216th Street
Des Moines, WA 98198

Subject: This message provides information regarding FAA continued operational safety activity related to the Boeing 737-8 and Boeing 737-9 (737 MAX) fleet.

Situation description: Following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 airplane on March 10, 2019, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) as the accredited representative, and the FAA as Technical Advisors, are supporting the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau. The FAA has dispatched personnel to support the investigative authorities in determining the circumstances of this event. All data will be closely examined during this investigation, and the FAA will take appropriate action if the data indicates the need to do so. External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and the Lion Air Flight 610 accident on October 29, 2018. However, this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions. Following the Lion Air Flight 610 accident, the FAA has completed these activities in support of continued operational safety of the fleet:

  • Issued FAA emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2018-23-51 on November 7, 2018

  • Validated that airplane maintenance and functional check instructions on Angle of Attack (AOA) vane replacement were adequate

  • Conducted simulator sessions to verify the Operational Procedures called out in FAA AD 2018-23-51

  • Validated AOA vane bench check calibration procedures were adequate

  • Reviewed Boeing’s production processes related to the AOA vane and Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS)

Ongoing oversight activities by the FAA include:

  • Boeing’s completion of the flight control system enhancements, which provide reduced reliance on procedures associated with required pilot memory items. The FAA anticipates mandating these design changes by AD no later than April 2019.


  • Design changes include:

  • - MCAS Activation Enhancements

  • - MCAS AOA Signal Enhancements

  • - MCAS Maximum Command Limit

  • Boeing’s plans to update training requirements and flight crew manuals to go with the MCAS design change include:

  • - Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) and Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM)

  • - Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) - notes in Speed Trim Fail checklist

  • - Airplane Maintenance Manual (AMM)

  • - Interactive Fault Isolation Manual (iFIM)

  • - Boeing has proposed Level A training impacts

Aircraft/engine make, model, and series: The Boeing Company Model 737-8 and 737-9 airplanes (737 MAX)

U.S.-registered fleet: 74 airplanes; Worldwide fleet: 387 airplanes

Operators: 59 operators worldwide: 9 Air, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Air China, Air Fiji, AIR ITALY S.P.A., American Airlines, Arkefly, Britannia Airways AB, Cayman Airways, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Comair, COPA Airlines, Corendon Airlines, Eastar Jet, Enter Air Sp. Z O.O., Ethiopian Airlines, Fertitta Enterprises, Inc., flydubai, Fuzhou Airlines Co., Ltd, Garuda Indonesia, Gol Linhas Aereas S.A., Hainan Airlines, Icelandair, Jet Airways, Jet Aviation Business Jets, JSC Aircompany SCAT, Kunming Airlines, Lion Air, Globus Airlines, LOT Polish Airlines, Lucky Air, Mauritania Airlines, Mongolian Airlines MIAT, Norwegian Air International Lt, Norwegian Air Norway, Norwegian Air Shuttle AS, Norwegian Air Sweden, Okay Airways Company Limited, Oman Air, Qatar Airways, Royal Air Maroc, Shandong Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, SilkAir, Smartwings, Southwest Airlines, SpiceJet, Sunwing Airlines Inc., Thai Lion, TUI Airlines Belgium, TUI Airways, Turkish Airlines (THY), United Airlines, WestJet, Xiamen Airlines

FAA contact: Jeffrey E. Duven, Director, System Oversight Division
Telephone and Fax: (206) 231-3200
Last edited by Finn350 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:04 am

It looks like by the end of the week, most if not all carriers with the MAX in their fleets will ground them. The pressure is building and I wouldn’t be surprised if at least one of the 3 US carriers grounds their MAX fleet in the next day or two. With increasing media exposure, the list of foreign carriers/government aviation authorities grounding their MAX fleets growing each day and even the flight attendants union in the US getting involved, it’s inevitable now.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:12 am

ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
LeoNYC wrote:
To me the answer to this question is a no brainer -or course they should. Until more is know our of abundance of caution, ground all the 737 Max flights. Once more information comes out they can revisit the decision. It is likely that it's a combination of a technical issue and air pilot error. Perhaps more training for the pilots will be required. I am surpirsed the airline unions did not demand the FAA to ground the flights. I am sure some crew members are not too happy to work on these planes at this moment.


A rookie chef would not be able to handle the knife skills of a seasoned Japanese hibachi chef. A well-trained and confidant pilot will have no issue handling an issue on the 737Max. The procedure for disabling the trim has remained the same since the 1960's.


This is such nonsense. Context matters. It's not as simple as you say. And there's pilots on pprune who are far more charitable on this than you. And they actually fly the type.

I think you know it's a little more complex than that, when you're a 1000' off the deck and you have erroneous airspeed errors possibly combined with stall warning, stick shaker and a whole lot else. This isn't some regular runaway trim where you can just identify the issue and run the checklist.


Have you read the multiple posts that stated that MCAS only functions when Flaps are up, which is unlikely at 1000’ above the deck. That’s thrust reduction altitude for many airlines.

BTW, stall warning and stick shaker are the same thing on all Boeing airplanes, even the Max 10. :)

MCAS is primarily driven off the AOA indication so an airspeed unreliable event wouldn’t necessarily drive MCAS. An Airspeed Unreliable event is well trained. It’s not desirable or enjoyable of course, but if a pilot can’t handle it, they have no business holding a type rating.

I’m trying to be polite. The stuff you’re posting is not really technically correct. If you want to ask how things work, I’m sure many of us will be happy to respond as I have to other intelligent thoughtful questions. I’m not just picking on you. There are a lot of technically incorrect “facts” and assmumptioms stated all over this thread as there were on the recent 767 thread.

And Runaway Trim is a recall memory item. They are trained to respond by memory before pulling the checklist. So are the first several steps of the Unreliable Airspeed checklist required to be memorized. I’m short, you disconnect your automation and fly pitch and power to atabilize the airplane. Then work the rest of the checklist.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2772
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:13 am

The current operators of MAX 9 planes are:

United Airlines (14)
Copa Airlines (6)
Thai Lion Air (3)
Icelandair (1)
Turkish Airlines (1)

The real agencies to watch are Transport Canada, as Air Canada would have some pretty severe disruptions if forced to ground its MAX 8 fleet (it would have to bring A320s out of retirement, some close to 30 years old) and the EASA (Norwegian flies 18 MAX 8 and needs the range on them).

By my count, 143 MAX 8s are grounded.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:15 am

nikeherc wrote:
D L X wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
I understand the concern that there might be a problem with the Max, and I can even understand that there might be a case for grounding. I cannot accept that the case has been made by people who don’t know how MCAS works, or by people that claim that the two accidents have the same cause without any evidence to that yet developed.


So, you're fine with the message, but you don't like the messengers?


No, I have a problem with a message that is based upon a misunderstanding of the systems involved.


Both of your posts that are quoted are spot on. Thanks for bringing some rationale thinking to this thread. :)
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:17 am

Finn350 wrote:
Here is the FAA Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community (CANIC) on Boeing 787-8:

https://www.scribd.com/document/4016332 ... -787-Max-8

Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community

To: Civil Aviation Authorities Date: March 11, 2019

From: Federal Aviation Administration
Aircraft Certification Service System Oversight Division, AIR-800
2200 South 216th Street
Des Moines, WA 98198

Subject: This message provides information regarding FAA continued operational safety activity related to the Boeing 737-8 and Boeing 737-9 (737 MAX) fleet.

Situation description: Following the accident of an Ethiopian Airlines Boeing Model 737-8 airplane on March 10, 2019, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) as the accredited representative, and the FAA as Technical Advisors, are supporting the Ethiopian Accident Investigation Bureau. The FAA has dispatched personnel to support the investigative authorities in determining the circumstances of this event. All data will be closely examined during this investigation, and the FAA will take appropriate action if the data indicates the need to do so. External reports are drawing similarities between this accident and the Lion Air Flight 610 accident on October 29, 2018. However, this investigation has just begun and to date we have not been provided data to draw any conclusions or take any actions. Following the Lion Air Flight 610 accident, the FAA has completed these activities in support of continued operational safety of the fleet:

  • Issued FAA emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2018-23-51 on November 7, 2018

  • Validated that airplane maintenance and functional check instructions on Angle of Attack (AOA) vane replacement were adequate

  • Conducted simulator sessions to verify the Operational Procedures called out in FAA AD 2018-23-51

  • Validated AOA vane bench check calibration procedures were adequate

  • Reviewed Boeing’s production processes related to the AOA vane and Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS)

Ongoing oversight activities by the FAA include:

  • Boeing’s completion of the flight control system enhancements, which provide reduced reliance on procedures associated with required pilot memory items. The FAA anticipates mandating these design changes by AD no later than April 2019.


  • Design changes include:

  • - MCAS Activation Enhancements

  • - MCAS AOA Signal Enhancements

  • - MCAS Maximum Command Limit

  • Boeing’s plans to update training requirements and flight crew manuals to go with the MCAS design change include:

  • - Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) and Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM)

  • - Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) - notes in Speed Trim Fail checklist

  • - Airplane Maintenance Manual (AMM)

  • - Interactive Fault Isolation Manual (iFIM)

Boeing has proposed Level A training impacts

Aircraft/engine make, model, and series: The Boeing Company Model 737-8 and 737-9 airplanes (737 MAX)

U.S.-registered fleet: 74 airplanes; Worldwide fleet: 387 airplanes

Operators: 59 operators worldwide: 9 Air, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aeromexico, Air Canada, Air China, Air Fiji, AIR ITALY S.P.A., American Airlines, Arkefly, Britannia Airways AB, Cayman Airways, China Eastern Airlines, China Southern Airlines, Comair, COPA Airlines, Corendon Airlines, Eastar Jet, Enter Air Sp. Z O.O., Ethiopian Airlines, Fertitta Enterprises, Inc., flydubai, Fuzhou Airlines Co., Ltd, Garuda Indonesia, Gol Linhas Aereas S.A., Hainan Airlines, Icelandair, Jet Airways, Jet Aviation Business Jets, JSC Aircompany SCAT, Kunming Airlines, Lion Air, Globus Airlines, LOT Polish Airlines, Lucky Air, Mauritania Airlines, Mongolian Airlines MIAT, Norwegian Air International Lt, Norwegian Air Norway, Norwegian Air Shuttle AS, Norwegian Air Sweden, Okay Airways Company Limited, Oman Air, Qatar Airways, Royal Air Maroc, Shandong Airlines, Shanghai Airlines, Shenzhen Airlines, SilkAir, Smartwings, Southwest Airlines, SpiceJet, Sunwing Airlines Inc., Thai Lion, TUI Airlines Belgium, TUI Airways, Turkish Airlines (THY), United Airlines, WestJet, Xiamen Airlines

FAA contact: Jeffrey E. Duven, Director, System Oversight Division
Telephone and Fax: (206) 231-3200


Okay good. Sounds like the MCAS design changes are public knowledge now. ;)
 
c933103
Posts: 3769
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 am

It is also interesting that the Chinese ban only affect Max 8 but not other Max series models
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
D L X
Posts: 12464
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
nikeherc wrote:
D L X wrote:

So, you're fine with the message, but you don't like the messengers?


No, I have a problem with a message that is based upon a misunderstanding of the systems involved.


Both of your posts that are quoted are spot on. Thanks for bringing some rationale thinking to this thread. :)

Right. I’m rational when I agree with you, but irrational when I don’t. That seems to be the nature of your responses to me in this thread.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:29 am

LAX772LR wrote:
RB211trent wrote:
then to read after two seemingly similar fatal accidents on the 737MAX people believe grounding is jumping the gun. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.


Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?

Whoops. This didn’t age well.

Fortunately we have experts making these decisions and not arm chair quarterbacks.
Last edited by Magog on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:31 am

D L X wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
nikeherc wrote:

No, I have a problem with a message that is based upon a misunderstanding of the systems involved.


Both of your posts that are quoted are spot on. Thanks for bringing some rationale thinking to this thread. :)

Right. I’m rational when I agree with you, but irrational when I don’t. That seems to be the nature of your responses to me in this thread.


Did I state one iota of anything about your post? I was referring to nikeherc. No the nature of my posts in many cases is to chime in on the misinformation stated all over this thread about one model of airplane. I’ve expressed very few opinions except the the experts will figure out the correct FACTS and I’m sure they will be acted upon.

I like what nike said so I commented on it. Not sure where I supposedly stated that DLX was irrational
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12306
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:32 am

Magog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
RB211trent wrote:
then to read after two seemingly similar fatal accidents on the 737MAX people believe grounding is jumping the gun. Unbelievable.

What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?

Whoops.

Whoops what? Three reactionary authoritative governments grounding before looking?

....that's more like *yawn*

TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:34 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Magog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?

Whoops.

Whoops what? Three reactionary authoritative governments grounding before looking?

....that's more like *yawn*

TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."

Nearly 50% of the fleet is grounded and you just yawn. To each their own.

You also said this...

LAX772LR wrote:
Armodeen wrote:
But it’s precisely WHEN you do not know the cause that the greatest risk is present.

That's all fine and dandy, but it's also not something authorities will ground a world or even national fleet over. Nor should they.

Why should carriers incur millions in losses, and travelers face disruption, or what's at this point not even an educated guess?


Time for a new crystal ball.
Last edited by Magog on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
zippy
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:37 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
MCAS is primarily driven off the AOA indication so an airspeed unreliable event wouldn’t necessarily drive MCAS. An Airspeed Unreliable event is well trained. It’s not desirable or enjoyable of course, but if a pilot can’t handle it, they have no business holding a type rating.


Yeah, but doesn't the MAX use the AoA data to calculate the airspeed? An unreliable airspeed event is trained for, but what about unreliable airspeed combined with the other things that'll go haywire on a MAX when the AoA data is bogus?
 
ddren09
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:06 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:41 am

lutfi wrote:
Plus CAAS is banning all MAX variants

The Civil Aviation Authority of Singapore (CAAS) is temporarily suspending operation of all variants of the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft into and out of Singapore in light of two fatal accidents involving Boeing 737 MAX aircraft in less than five months. The suspension will take effect from 1400hrs, 12 March 2019.

SilkAir, which operates 6 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, will be affected by the temporary suspension. The other airlines currently operating Boeing 737 MAX aircraft to Singapore are China Southern Airlines, Garuda Indonesia, Shandong Airlines and Thai Lion Air. CAAS is working with Changi Airport Group and the affected airlines to minimise any impact to travelling passengers.


One affected route that came into my mind is Singapore to Hiroshima. I don’t think SilkAir can fly that route with a non max 738 isn’t it?
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2772
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:41 am

c933103 wrote:
It is also interesting that the Chinese ban only affect Max 8 but not other Max series models


There are no B-registered B39Ms.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:46 am

zippy wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
MCAS is primarily driven off the AOA indication so an airspeed unreliable event wouldn’t necessarily drive MCAS. An Airspeed Unreliable event is well trained. It’s not desirable or enjoyable of course, but if a pilot can’t handle it, they have no business holding a type rating.


Yeah, but doesn't the MAX use the AoA data to calculate the airspeed? An unreliable airspeed event is trained for, but what about unreliable airspeed combined with the other things that'll go haywire on a MAX when the AoA data is bogus?


I don’t think the 737 Max airspeed is calculated using AOA data so I don’t think it will go unrealiable. I thought you’d just possibly get erroneous stick shaker if the error was big enough. I’m not sure if it uses any kind of AOA compensation.

I’m speaking in general of course. We have no idea what happened yesterday until the experts release their findings.

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