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Carlos01
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am

SunsetLimited wrote:
I have upcoming MAX flights on both WN and AA. After talking to numerous MAX pilots from both airlines on a nearly daily basis, I have no fears in regards to stepping foot on that a/c. None whatsoever. But, to each his/her own.


The Ethiopian pilots who can no longer corroborate what I'm claiming, would have told you the exact same thing last week I'm sure. I don't think any pilot would set a foot in a plane if they had doubts about its safety. Maybe testpilots excluded.

I'm really baffled by this blind faith, "the plane must be perfectly ok, the ones crashed were just piloted by a bunch of retards in some sandmonkey-country."

Karma can be a bitch. Just saying.
 
Aither
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:22 am

Let's get back to the basics:
- 2 crashes, 300 people died, probably due to the same problem on an aircraft according to officials.
- Problem recognized and to be solved in a few weeks
- In the meantime, don't worry and pray when you are onboard this aircraft that the pilots are super experienced just in case...

Seriously ? are they kidding ?

This also gives me a feeling, but I have no proof to demonstrate, that it would have been an Airbus or Bombardier or Embraer having the same problem the FAA would ground everything right away.
Never trust the obvious
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:28 am

NTLDaz wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:

Ummmm - Singapore and Australia. Decidedly first world.


As I am sure you know, Ethiopia and Indonesia banned it first, I would describe both as second world. Singapore and Australia followed them and they are 100% first world, but that is not what I said.

Given Australia and Singapore are western nations, you have argued yourself out of your own point as this is a national level ban.

Sandyb123


Ummm - pretty sure you wrote any grounding in the west will be at airline level. Maybe I misunderstand what that means.


Airlines voluntary grounding their fleets, rather then ordered by the regulators. At the government level, it save faces for FAA & Boeing.
 
ELBOB
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:33 am

keesje wrote:
2 Days before the Japanese grounding the 787, FAA, Boeing and DoT stood shoulder to shoulder to pronounce everything was under control, the aircraft is safe but they would have a look again.


Which really highlights the problem; Boeing shouldn't have been at that podium. They are the subjects, not stakeholders at the table.
 
Aither
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:39 am

sandyb123 wrote:
NTLDaz wrote:
fsabo wrote:

If EASA grounds MAX, FAA will probably ground GTF powered A32X. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I really think it is like MAD with nuclear weapons. Any grounding in the west will be at airline level.


Ummmm - Singapore and Australia. Decidedly first world.


As I am sure you know, Ethiopia and Indonesia banned it first, I would describe both as second world. Singapore and Australia followed them and they are 100% first world, but that is not what I said.

Given Australia and Singapore are western nations, you have argued yourself out of your own point as this is a national level ban.

Sandyb123


Even if you don't want to ground your Max fleet because you trust Boeing and the FAA there are 2 reasons why you would do it anyway :

- If your competitors ground their fleet, then you don't want to be seen as the airline caring less about safety in the region. It's as simple as that. In the eye of the general public, the max is maybe not so safe. This is all that matters. Reputation is a key asset of an airline.

- If your direct competitor operates 30 Max and yourself only 2, it does not cost you a lot to ground the aircraft, while forcing your competitor to largely disrupt its operations. It's nasty, but life is tough.
Never trust the obvious
 
OB1504
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:53 am

mjoelnir wrote:
majano wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
Number of 737 MAX 8s in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
15 Grounded Air China
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
18 In use Norwegian Air
15 In use TUI fly
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
5 In use Oman Air
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT
5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines
2 Grounded?/Unknown? Eastar Jet

Close to half of 350 delivered Max are now on ground until the mess is sorted.

Updated: Jet Airways not operating any Boeing 737 MAX plane (https://www.timesnownews.com/business-e ... ane/380915)

My understanding is that the FAA has not mandated grounding the MAX, in fact, they could be seen to be recommending continued operations. With close to half the fleet grounded due to decisions of other regulators and individual airlines, is there a risk to the FAA's reputation and authority as the world's leading aviation safety body?


If one more 737-8 would crash, or even just get into extreme difficulties after take off, the FAA would be fucked with heads rolling.


Would they? In the 1990s we had two 737s crash due to rudder issues and a third nearly went down too. No grounding even then.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:59 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
Airlines voluntary grounding their fleets, rather then ordered by the regulators. At the government level, it save faces for FAA & Boeing.


To me, it says the exact opposite. The FAA are basically in dereliction of their duty if the airlines have to voluntarily ground the aircraft.

When those that are out of pocket are deciding its too risky and grounding the thing - how does it reflect well on those that are supposedly financially independent and supposed to preside over safety when they are saying "continue full steam ahead, no icebergs here".
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:02 am

OB1504 wrote:
Would they? In the 1990s we had two 737s crash due to rudder issues and a third nearly went down too. No grounding even then.


Nearer 4 years apart, not 4 months!

Even then, it took till 1999 for recommendations to change the design come out and 2002 before these were all implemented.

That is unacceptably long in my view.


[at that speed of investigation and this rate of crashes, you'd be looking at ~20 crashes and ~10 near misses before a conclusion is reached and a fix out!]
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:04 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I have asked this question and have yet to get a response. What will satisfy those who have grounded their 737 fleets? They obviously aren't listening to the FAA or Boeing. And if it's proven that MCAS was not the cause of the crash then they may be looking at a defamation suit.


LOL @ defamation suit. Any operator can choose not to fly an airplane they own. I'd like to see Boeing sue one of their customers for defamation. How many sales do they want to give Airbus?

I'd just like confirmation that the crashes aren't similar. They just sound too alike to dismiss.


It happens all the time. A crazy lady in my town once claimed one of the restaurants sent her to the hospital from food poisoning. Turns out it was a hoax. The restaurant slapped her with a defamation suit and was seeking damages. These airlines are claiming Boeing is at fault before the flames were put out.


You're sounding desperate and ridiculous.

1) Show a press release from a carrier that attributes a grounding directly to a fault. "We're grounding this type for caution." Is not defamatory.

2) You actually believe your own BS that Boeing is going to sue their own customers? I think you need to get out more.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:04 am

Amiga500 wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
Would they? In the 1990s we had two 737s crash due to rudder issues and a third nearly went down too. No grounding even then.


Nearer 4 years apart, not 4 months!


And there was no evidence of a common cause.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:09 am

Can EU members ban them?

Can anyone tell me if individual EU members can ban airlines/aircraft type or does this have to be done centrally by EASA?
Last edited by FlapsOne on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:10 am

fsabo wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:
RickNRoll wrote:
The FAA has set a deadline of April for the fix. The implication is quite clear. If the fix is not ready the 737 Max will be grounded.


In a global industry I am frankly amazed that the two biggest regulators (FAA & EASA) have not taken more decisive action here. Regardless of speculation for reason two identical aircraft have crashed in identical circumstances resulting in the death of almost 400 souls.

And yet all we are getting from the FAA is 'we're aware of the problem' and 'we've requested changes by the end of the month'. It is a telling insight into attitude to safety and how they regulate the industry.

All we have seen is some nations banning the MAX (also note the that second world lead the pack here). I am sure there is political foresight for those nations to be seen to be taking action. I also suspect that the UK will follow suit, even if it is a political move related to powers of Brexit.

I am also startled at the 'if my time is up, it's up' attitudes being displayed on here. Seriously? You would put your own lives at risk in an avoidable accident based on some sort of act of god attitude?

Would I get on any other aircraft today? I'm typing this from an Emirates Boeing 773ER. Would I get on a Boeing 737 MAX today? Not a chance.

Sandyb123


If EASA grounds MAX, FAA will probably ground GTF powered A32X. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I really think it is like MAD with nuclear weapons. Any grounding in the west will be at airline level.


Why should that happen?

There is a reason to ground the 737MAX, there is no reason to ground the A320neo family frames with GTF engines.

Furthermore the GTF engines are produced in the USA. The LEAP engines for the A320neo family frames are produced in France.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:12 am

FlapsOne wrote:
They absolutely should be grounding them.

Can anyone tell me if individual EU members can ban airlines/aircraft type or does this have to be done centrally by EASA?


The grounding would be done not by the individual countries, but by EASA. But there is no hindrance for the single airlines to take action.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:14 am

I feel pressure is growing here in Canada too for Marc Garneau to make a decision on the grounding of the MAX.

You can bet Air Canada is on the phone now looking to wetlease a bunch of A320s should the grounding happen in Canada, same goes for Westjet. It's huge news here in a Canada for a couple of reasons, 18 Canadian were killed on the flight including a family of 6 from Toronto. 24 AC mainline planes and 13 Westjet planes are MAX's for AC that's almost 1/4 of their narrowbody fleet, a grounding would cause massive disruptions in their schedules during March break and have huge economic consequences, a little less so for Westjet. Proportionally, Canada is likely more dependant on the MAX than any other country at the moment.

We were far more insulated from potential groundings of a single type when AC was all Airbus and WS was Boeing for their NB fleets.
Last edited by ACCS300 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
FlapsOne
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 am

mjoelnir wrote:
FlapsOne wrote:
They absolutely should be grounding them.

Can anyone tell me if individual EU members can ban airlines/aircraft type or does this have to be done centrally by EASA?


The grounding would be done not by the individual countries, but by EASA. But there is no hindrance for the single airlines to take action.


Thanks for your help.
 
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sergegva
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:17 am

RickNRoll wrote:

The FAA is playing a game here. Fix must be in by April. If it must be in by then, then if it is not in Max is grounded.
That raises the second question, what is the FAA criteria for the fix being acceptable and how will it be tested?


Grounding the 737 MAX until these modifications requested by FAA are made seems to me an acceptable compromise between the precautionary principle and an economically sustainable decision. That is the decision I would make if I were the head of an airline.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:43 am

mjoelnir wrote:
fsabo wrote:
sandyb123 wrote:

In a global industry I am frankly amazed that the two biggest regulators (FAA & EASA) have not taken more decisive action here. Regardless of speculation for reason two identical aircraft have crashed in identical circumstances resulting in the death of almost 400 souls.

And yet all we are getting from the FAA is 'we're aware of the problem' and 'we've requested changes by the end of the month'. It is a telling insight into attitude to safety and how they regulate the industry.

All we have seen is some nations banning the MAX (also note the that second world lead the pack here). I am sure there is political foresight for those nations to be seen to be taking action. I also suspect that the UK will follow suit, even if it is a political move related to powers of Brexit.

I am also startled at the 'if my time is up, it's up' attitudes being displayed on here. Seriously? You would put your own lives at risk in an avoidable accident based on some sort of act of god attitude?

Would I get on any other aircraft today? I'm typing this from an Emirates Boeing 773ER. Would I get on a Boeing 737 MAX today? Not a chance.

Sandyb123


If EASA grounds MAX, FAA will probably ground GTF powered A32X. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I really think it is like MAD with nuclear weapons. Any grounding in the west will be at airline level.


Why should that happen?

There is a reason to ground the 737MAX, there is no reason to ground the A320neo family frames with GTF engines.

Furthermore the GTF engines are produced in the USA. The LEAP engines for the A320neo family frames are produced in France.


The FAA and EASA are politically controlled organisations. Officially independent, but lets face it, both have been biased and used politically in the past. There were some notable clashes in the 90s and early 2000s. And with a nice person like the US president running the show, and the 737 playing such an important role in the US economy, thats just begging for reprisals...

IMHO, EASA should always be careful in taking the first steps in a case that can be construed as favoritism of the directly competing European product. Without a competitive narrowbody, there is a very real risk that Boeing could be out of business within a few decades. Boeing is the biggest exporter in the US and a major manufacturer of vital weapons. It isn't something the US government is likely to take with a grain of salt.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:50 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
JoeCanuck wrote:
With 350 or so MAX's flying, if there was any significant inherent issue with the MAX, I think it would likely have shown up by now. We'll see.


You mean by having 2 of them crash within months of entering service? Sorry, couldn't help myself... but potentially it already has shown up, with the worst possible outcome.


So what if, other than the aircraft are the same type, the accidents have nothing in common...then what?


Then nothing. This is what "abundance of caution" means. A prima facie case should be enough for a temporary grounding till an investigation is complete. I'd even say limit it to just the 737-8 MAX.

Again I'll ask. What is your number? How many have to crash before you think a precautionary grounding is warranted? If another crashed tomorrow, would you simply say, "Nope. Unrelated."? How many is it for you and the others on here? One more? Two more? Three?

Or is it more like a rate? One every six months is acceptable?

Or is it a percentage of the fleet? We're at half a percent now. Which is incredible in any safety critical Industry. But should we wait till 1%?

To everybody saying a grounding isn't warranted. I want to know what your criteria is? Or is it just none?

I wouldn't have said ground after one crash. After two with some similar contributing factors? Absolutely.
 
TYCOON
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:53 am

I recall the FAA was quick to ground the Franco-Italian built ATRs after the American Eagle accident in Illinois. I thought to myself at the time how odd they took so long for action on the DC-10s and never took necessary action on the B737s following Pittsburgh and Colorado Springs... and yet so quickly and effectively grounded the ATR fleet in the US.
 
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zeke
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:54 am

The Australian regulator (CASA) has banned the 737Max from flying in Australia

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 513hi.html
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:55 am

Boof02671 wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
What I find most alarming here is the persistent attitude from Boeing apologists (of which I typically am one!) that, "We don't KNOW what happened yet, therefore there's no reason to disrupt anyone's day by grounding the fleet."
We grounded the 787 after two battery incidents which resulted in ZERO fatalities.
And now we have two hull losses of a familiar aircraft with some new systems. Over 300 lives lost.
Aviation in first-world countries is SUPPOSED to be SAFETY FIRST.
We've got two major crashes, perhaps related, perhaps not, of a new aircraft.
Ground them until we can prove that the crashes are NOT related.

If it proves to have been unnecessary, OH WELL.
What ever happened to "Better Safe than Sorry"?

Oh wait, that'd irritate the a.net brain trust.
As it stands right now, there's no way on Earth that I'd book my loved ones on these airplanes.
And that's not being irrational- it's being CAUTIOUS AND SENSIBLE.

Hi Josh the Banker, forums too slow?


If even AA737-823 says Boeing needs to move, they better pay attention. :wideeyed:


zeke wrote:
The Australian regulator (CASA) has banned the 737Max from flying in Australia

https://www.smh.com.au/business/compani ... 513hi.html


Air Canada and South West will probably give them a call.

Authoritative, not involved in the certification and politically independent on this topic.

South Korea, GOL Brasil added to the list.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tayser
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:12 pm

Malaysia's just banned the type from their skies as well.

https://twitter.com/CAA_Malaysia/status ... 13/photo/1
 
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downtown273
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:13 pm

Are airlines accommodating passengers' concerns about flying on the MAX and offering free rebooking options? I.e. AA might decide that they want to continue operating the type, but if a passenger goes to board and realizes it's a MAX, how will their refusal to fly on the MAX be accommodated?
 
tayser
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:16 pm

Oman also temporarily suspending the type in their airspace/at their airports: https://twitter.com/PACAOMAN/status/1105440137721327616
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:19 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
The current operators of MAX 9 planes are:

United Airlines (14)
Copa Airlines (6)
Thai Lion Air (3)
Icelandair (1)
Turkish Airlines (1)

The real agencies to watch are Transport Canada, as Air Canada would have some pretty severe disruptions if forced to ground its MAX 8 fleet (it would have to bring A320s out of retirement, some close to 30 years old) and the EASA (Norwegian flies 18 MAX 8 and needs the range on them).

By my count, 143 MAX 8s are grounded.


TC won't. And it's obvious why.

Sort of shows you why having a duopoly sucks. There's no alternative when one of them has a new model screwing up. TC is operating off the economic considerations of AC and WS. And that's poor form.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:28 pm

Will be interesting to see if insurance rates force some groundings. Insurance for the MAX could be going through the roof if there's no conclusive determinations soon. Airlines may not care about lives. But they might care about dollars.
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:28 pm

I think the US carriers need to sit the aircraft down voluntarily (even if Pilot error is the cause), if only for PR and Public confidence reasons. If I was CEO I'd park them and make a "Safety is Paramount" announcement and then pressure Boeing and the FAA to make some kind of formal statement that lets you put them back in the air a few days later.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:33 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Up to now there is no official report on what did lead to the Lion Air crash. Crew training/failure in regards to problems with MCAS resulting from a failure in the AOA sensor or amplifier is only a likely outcome.
The AOA sensor by itself seem to be able to work quite a havoc without talking about MCAS, with one of the results being unreliable airspeed indication.
There is of course no information yet available what could have caused the accident in Ethiopia.

We have now two schools of thought.
One, and that is how the FAA plays, you need concrete information before you ground.
Two, you ground the frames until their is an indication that this two accidents are unrelated and/or not caused by the frame itself.

I clearly adhere to the second faction, ground until it is known what is happening.

The industry and regulators seem to be about half and half divided into the two schools of thought. Historical it has been done both ways.
The Comet 1 grounding was precautionary before it was known what had happened.
The DC10 grounding came after the reasons for the accidents were known, in my opinion to late.
The 787 grounding played differently, the precautionary grounding of the at that time biggest users, JAL and ANA with half of the delivered 787 in use, forced the decision of the FAA to ground the frames.


The FAA is playing a game here. Fix must be in by April. If it must be in by then, then if it is not in Max is grounded.
That raises the second question, what is the FAA criteria for the fix being acceptable and how will it be tested?


The first question should be, "If you think a grounding is warranted in April, why not ground now till there is a fix?" The FAA doesn't come off looking like safety is top of mind here.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:36 pm

Aviation737 wrote:
From reading the comments, I can tell that some people are not gonna be happy with the official report for both crashes...


Swiss cheese model. There's going to be plenty of blame to go around when those reports come out. That does not mean potential aircraft related factors can't be mitigated temporarily. I'd be extremely happy to read that none of it was attributed to the airplane. But in the interim, prudence demands you don't knowingly subject more lives to games of chance.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:37 pm

Hot from the press (its 8:36pm here in Malaysia)

Civil Aviation Authority: All Boeing 737 Max 8 flights to and from Malaysia suspended

http://dlvr.it/R0gMp8
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Aither
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:38 pm

As I said yesterday once an airline started to ground the aircraft direct competitors have to follow to protect their reputation.
It started with China & Africa, it's expanding to Asia & Oceania, and Middle East. Expect today it will reach more Europe and the Americas.

It's a perception thing as much as a technical one.

If Boeing continues to say "it's OK" while all the operators will have grounded this could damage the trust we have on Boeing. Again, it's not just a technical thing for the operators. Just take an immediate action, even if it's not the final fix, to raise confidence than you are doing something rather than just saying, "well we will fix that in some weeks and in the meantime have fun!"...! this is also about communication damn it!
Never trust the obvious
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:43 pm

It's way beyond a technical question now. It's a PR and Ethical one first and foremost.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:45 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
It's way beyond a technical question now. It's a PR and Ethical one first and foremost.


Which is not based on rationality & facts.

Now I'm all for a grounding, but only if it's backed up by facts. At the moment it's mere conjecture that's driving the mass hysteria over the 737MAX.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
UpNAWAy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:48 pm

It doesn't really matter what the facts are the Public Perception (is reality See: SW has the cheapest fares) liability can potentially cost an airline hundreds of millions in the sort term. Better to eat 20-50 million now which you may quickly regain with public goodwill. And heaven forbid another accident in the meantime and it could be disastrous for those operators still flying.
 
blueflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:51 pm

I wonder whether the airlines that have decided to ground their Max 8 fleet without order from their regulators are doing so based on safety concerns, or due to customer pressure.

Am I wrong in thinking it is unusual for so many airlines and regulators to make a move before the FAA does? Looking forward, if the momentum for grounding the plane continues, Boeing will probably have no choice but to (finally) retire the 737 type certificate.
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
Jetty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:52 pm

Looks like the FAA will be the very last to ban the 737MAX. But what more can you expect from a regulator that deemed MCAS needed for an unstable plane based one AoA sensor safe?
 
Western727
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:53 pm

Is this why my WN app has a notice for my trip to PHX on Saturday 16 March (on which none of the flights are on a MAX) that says:

"You may change your travel date/time at no additional cost. Circumstances beyond our control (weather, etc.) are creating disruptions to our scheduled service and a flight(s) on which you are currently booked may be adversely affected. To minimize your inconvenience, we are offering the one time opportunity to change your flight date(s) and/or time(s) at no additional cost..."

...or is this actually a result of the unrelated "operational emergency" that WN declared due to its continued wrangling with AMFA?
Jack @ AUS
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:53 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
It's way beyond a technical question now. It's a PR and Ethical one first and foremost.


Which is not based on rationality & facts.

Now I'm all for a grounding, but only if it's backed up by facts. At the moment it's mere conjecture that's driving the mass hysteria over the 737MAX.


It doesn't work like that. The final report on the LionAir 737-8 is planned for this autumn, formally we know nothing.
You shouldn't hide behind that on public safety.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:00 pm

keesje wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
It's way beyond a technical question now. It's a PR and Ethical one first and foremost.


Which is not based on rationality & facts.

Now I'm all for a grounding, but only if it's backed up by facts. At the moment it's mere conjecture that's driving the mass hysteria over the 737MAX.


It doesn't work like that. The final report on the LionAir 737-8 is planned for this autumn, formally we know nothing.
You shouldn't hide behind that on public safety.


I am referring to ET302. They haven't even decoded the DFDR yet.

Also, because the FAA is party to both investigation, surely they have more info on the matter than all the other authorities wouldn't they? So their reluctance to declare a full grounding of the 737MAX is quite understandable in my opinion, as they're trying to ascertain all the facts.
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par13del
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:06 pm

So the reports of eye witness's talking about flames from the a/c and baggage falling before the crash have been officially discounted?
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:09 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So their reluctance to declare a full grounding of the 737MAX is quite understandable in my opinion, as they're trying to ascertain all the facts.


Do you believe they need all the facts before taking a precautionary measure?

So, lets say everything points to MCAS being the problem in both instances, do the FAA still wait till formal publication of their findings (which could be 6months away) before taking any precautionary measures?

The clue is in the word itself; precaution.
 
kiwiparty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:10 pm

Oman Air has grounded its 737 MAX fleet according to Alex Macheras
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:11 pm

par13del wrote:
So the reports of eye witness's talking about flames from the a/c and baggage falling before the crash have been officially discounted?


They aren't being given much weight, and given the historical accuracy of eyewitness accounts, rightfully so.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
blueflyer wrote:
I wonder whether the airlines that have decided to ground their Max 8 fleet without order from their regulators are doing so based on safety concerns, or due to customer pressure.

Am I wrong in thinking it is unusual for so many airlines and regulators to make a move before the FAA does? Looking forward, if the momentum for grounding the plane continues, Boeing will probably have no choice but to (finally) retire the 737 type certificate.

I’m not against a grounding but to say that the 737 certification needs to be retired is absurd.
 
JoKeR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:14 pm

Oman the latest to ban the Max. Just reported by Reuters...
 
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Kindanew
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:16 pm

par13del wrote:
So the reports of eye witness's talking about flames from the a/c and baggage falling before the crash have been officially discounted?


I am very sceptical of these reports.

Eyewitness accounts of these types of incidents are normally proven to be untrue. People said the same about the Germanwings incident and we know they were wrong.

And this supposed trail of burning wreckage would have been found by now.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So their reluctance to declare a full grounding of the 737MAX is quite understandable in my opinion, as they're trying to ascertain all the facts.


Do you believe they need all the facts before taking a precautionary measure?

So, lets say everything points to MCAS being the problem in both instances, do the FAA still wait till formal publication of their findings (which could be 6months away) before taking any precautionary measures?

The clue is in the word itself; precaution.


They need SOME facts. In the case of ET302, they don't have any facts.

Let them decode the DFDR first before making a decision. Why is that such a problem.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
Gingersnap
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:26 pm

Last edited by Gingersnap on Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W B788 C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
RolandRat
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:27 pm

UK Civil Aviation Authority has suspended UK Max 8 Operations
 
Bingo1
Posts: 206
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:28 pm

It would be helpful to have a tally of the countries and/or airlines that have grounded their fleet. Feel free to correct or add as better or new info comes out.

China. 96 planes
Gol Airlines. 7 planes
Cayman Airways. 2 planes
Jet Airways. 5 planes
Aeromexico. 6 planes
Indonesia. 11 planes
Singapore. 6 planes
Eastar Jet. 2 planes
Ethiopian Airlines. 4 planes
Comair. 1 plane
MIAT Mongolian. 1 plane
Aerolineas Argentinas. 5 planes
Royal Air Maroc. 2 planes

Countries that have banned flights into and/or overflights.

Australia
Malaysia
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