1ffb2002 wrote:

This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.

There are two facts, two new 737-8 crashed with loss of all lives under similar circumstances. Boeing and the FAA need to show that the 737MAX is not dangerous.

The list has omitted COPA.

juliuswong wrote:

akb88 wrote:

Icelandair grounds:

http://www.visir.is/g/2019190319684/ice ... 8-velarnar

Official now in their website: https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Another 3 out of service.

Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines

34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT

5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

Countries that have banned Max 8 or Max family from operating in their territories:
Malaysia
Australia
Oman
Singapore
China
Indonesia
UK

LATEST UPDATES:

Norwegian Air grounds its Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QT1U5

TUI Group grounds all 737 Max operation
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 16301.html

Icelandair Group suspends operation of three Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Eastar seem to still be flying at least one of theirs - currently en-route ICN-PQC?

konrad wrote:

As a general comment, is this the first time when the Chinese aviation regulatory authority sets the trend for the rest of the world? Interesting times.

or the first time China is putting a mirror in front of ourselves.

Germany bans airspace for 737-MAX(-8)

https://www.n-tv.de/newsletter/breaking ... 02500.html

News article in a Finnish newspaper: Norwegian 737MAX was ready to taxi for HEL-OUL flight, departing at 3:55 PM today. Then the captain announced the plane has ”a technical defect” and the flight is cancelled.

FI has indeed grounded their MAX fleet. Although only 3 are in service, another two (-9 TF-ICA and -8 TF-ICN) are already in KEF doing final preparations before entry into service and a further three (-9s -ICB / -ICC and -8 -ICO) are still in Seattle with engines on at various stages of flying tests.

While the current schedule has a lot of slack in it so the 757s can fill the gap for the time being, this could become a problem if the grounding drags on as the summer schedule includes all 8 of those MAXes. Intreresting times ahead, I hope this gets resolved sooner rather than later.

Germany closed airspace too for the MAX

At time of writing also TK 595 IST-NKC made a U-turn over the Med Sea back to base.

DY as well...

Well I don't for a second doubt the professionalism and skill of the FAA employees, I can't help but feel that if this was an Airbus or even Embraer, it would be very different. Boeing is a huge company that is VERY close to the government. If anyone thinks that there isn't corporate pressure on the FAA, you're living in a dream world.

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk

CM only operates the MAX 9, currently 3 flying in normal schedule (2 back to PTY and 1 out to LAX).

Magog wrote:

The list has omitted COPA.

juliuswong wrote:

akb88 wrote:

Icelandair grounds:

http://www.visir.is/g/2019190319684/ice ... 8-velarnar

Official now in their website: https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Another 3 out of service.

Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines

34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT

5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

Countries that have banned Max 8 or Max family from operating in their territories:
Malaysia
Australia
Oman
Singapore
China
Indonesia
UK

LATEST UPDATES:

Norwegian Air grounds its Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QT1U5

TUI Group grounds all 737 Max operation
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 16301.html

Icelandair Group suspends operation of three Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Then airlines like Norwegian for instance that has a lot of planes but heavily invested in the Max and use them a lot I wonder if this can disrupt their business fruther. The spring and summer season of travel isn't far off and they are running at capacity as is on very little cashflow. I wonder if this could make things even worse?

1ffb2002 wrote:

This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.

You might not feel the same way if like that Slovakian MP, you had lost your wife and two children in this latest crash.

DY1802 OSL-AGP is still en--route too, yet ARN-TLV turned around a while ago to return to base? Hmmm

FCAFLYBOY wrote:

DY1802 OSL-AGP is still en--route too, yet ARN-TLV turned around a while ago to return to base? Hmmm

Returning to their bases, most likely.

AirbusOnly wrote:

Germany closed airspace too for the MAX

So I guess it becomes now rather impractical to operate the MAX in Europe with the UK and German airspace closed.

Finn350 wrote:

FCAFLYBOY wrote:

DY1802 OSL-AGP is still en--route too, yet ARN-TLV turned around a while ago to return to base? Hmmm

Returning to their bases, most likely.

Yes fair point, had forgotten AGP may well be a base for DY

Ireland has also banned the B737MAX from their airspace.

Firstly I am not sure a grounding is required and may not have been applied in the past. But the times have changed.

The 737MAX is becoming a toxic name and Boeing are very much behind in the PR curve here. The FAA don't register on most fliers radar. The manufacturer of the plane they are on does. This is hurting Boeing big time.

https://mailchi.mp/apfa/3hvdkgc33i

AA's FA union, AFPA are calling on Doug Parker to suspend use of the 737MAX.

Seems like if there was any indication that the Ethiopian crash was due to anything other than flight control problems, airlines would not be pulling them out of service.

So i guess a big question is,....are these accidents due to software/sensor malfunctions which makes them uncontrollable? or are some pilots just not trained properly enough to fly this advanced jet?... and USA/Canada must know something to keep their planes in the sky at this moment of intense pressure to ground the fleet.

Wonder if AC will ground it? Probably not, we're too close to the US and don't like to piss off the US .

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Now I'm all for a grounding, but only if it's backed up by facts. At the moment it's mere conjecture that's driving the mass hysteria over the 737MAX.

We do have facts. At the moment the "facts" we do have are that two brand-new airplanes went down in very similar circumstances in nearly the same phase of flight, in Vmc, which is far too worrying a coincidence. Until we know the cause, we have no way of knowing whether a similar accident won't happen again. Until we know the cause, each MAX flight is in effect a test flight, and paying passengers have no business on a test flight. When two Comets fell out of the sky in the same phase of flight, the aircraft was grounded even though the cause had not yet found and no facts were known.

I do have confidence that the issue will be found, and that the MAX will turn out to be a fine aircraft.

Would I fly on one now? No. My wife is headed to YVR next week to visit family, and I was relieved, after checking, that she'll be on an A330 both ways. I would have asked her to rebook if a MAX.

It's not something, as a pilot myself (albeit "only" a PPL) say lightly, but aviation is all about risk management.

Beech

oldannyboy wrote:

I welcome the CAA ban. It puts the right amount on pressure on the manufacturer and other authorities to seriously look into what brought down the ET in a TIMELY manner.

What makes you think that authorities have not been seriously looking into what brought down the ET in a TIMELY manner.

That’s a whole lot of first world airspace that is closed to the MAX. I cannot see how American and Canadian operators will be able to avoid a grounding.

Now Official, Ireland has banned the operation of 737MAX aircraft from it's airspace:

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0312 ... nes-crash/

This reminds me of when they grounded the DC-10 after AA 191 crashed at ORD back in 1979.

Bobloblaw wrote:

I’m not against a grounding but to say that the 737 certification needs to be retired is absurd.

Retired, not canceled, not withdrawn, not revoked, but retired! As in no new 737 model allowed. It was long overdue even before the two recent crashes. What does a MAX have in common with a 737-100? They do not belong on the same type certificate.

According to the Finnish Traficom, a European-wide grounding for the MAXes is being planned, should be announced tonight (unless they would suddenly decide otherwise).

I'm flying with the missus on vacation in a few weeks, boy am I glad I didn't book those flydubai -flights!

Just from a public relations perspective, I do not see how American and Southwest airlines can continue to fly the MAX.

I wonder what the announcement onboard for these returns is.

mjoelnir wrote:

1ffb2002 wrote:

This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.

There are two facts, two new 737-8 crashed with loss of all lives under similar circumstances. Boeing and the FAA need to show that the 737MAX is not dangerous.

RIdiculous. The FAA is saying it has no information that the Max is dangerous. It is saying that if such information come to light, it will act.

1ffb2002 wrote:

There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash.

We rarely get to make policy on the basis of 100% complete information -- it is all about how you deal with unknowns. And while there may not be any incontrovertible facts showing the MAX is dangerous, we know that it has an MCAS system that can be dangerous, and that the user interface for dealing with MCAS problems is not necessarily user friendly. We have a crash that at least superficially seems similar to the Lion Air crash. So yes, I do fault WN and FAA for not showing any leadership or getting ahead of this problem.

1ffb2002 wrote:

This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.

At the same time there are no facts that show there isn't a problem. Two Aircraft down. The Ethiopian reported they had erratic Airspeed and control problems. This is from two independant persons listening to Airband and this was not long after Departure. With indicated Airspeed around 400 Kts, the Flaps will be retracted and MCAS active. I have worked in Aircraft Maintenance for 37 years, and I am type rated on 737-200 to -800, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, Q400 and A320 family. I've never worked on the MAX and never flown on it. I love flying, but at this moment in time I will 100% avoid the MAX. If it is confirmed that it crashed because of anything other than a problem on the Aircraft side I will 100% be happy to fly on it. Until then, no way. When I was in the Military I worked on Aircraft that are inherently unstable and the FBW system compensates that. When I first heard about MCAS and the fact that due to the Engines being further forward the Aircraft had to compensate for that I was a little surprised. To me it is clear that this is more to keep a common type raing for Flight Crew. My bet is that a less experienced Crew member who has done all his training on the MAX might fly it better than a Captain who spent years on a Classic or NG in these Circumstances. The experienced Captain is more likely to revert to what he was used to doing for his previous 8000 Hours or whatever in my opinion.

F9Fan wrote:

This reminds me of when they grounded the DC-10 after AA 191 crashed at ORD back in 1979.

You mean 16 days after the AA 191 crash -- after they KNEW the cause of the crash -- don't you?

And Norwegian is now grounding their fleet. Which is a pretty big deal.

I really think AA and Southwest should follow, along with WestJet and Air Canada.

There are too many unknowns and commonalities to not take cautionary path.

And oh my the liability if something else occurs with a MAX!

And we can add France and Ireland to the list of countries banning the 737-MAX.

birdbrainz wrote:

747megatop wrote:

EWR762 wrote:

Let's just think about the responses on this thread if the Bombardier C-Series lost 2 frames out of 350 in such a short time. (Yes, I know it's the A220 now and not as many have been built)

The 737 is a trusted and reliable aircraft type, but the latest updates to the MAX have changed the aircraft in some key ways.

While we do not know the cause of this latest accident, it's much safer to ground them and wait for an explanation or further fixes, if needed. I'm sure everyone is working hard to keep everyone safe.

I'm not an aviation expert, but as a passenger I'll definitely avoid the MAX for the time being. Just my preference; I respect others' decision to fly it.

- EWR762

I emailed out an advisory to my family and friends and it goes like this -

"While commercial aviation is extremely safe; far safer than driving, please avoid flying on the MAX 8 version of the 737 if possible because 2 brand new planes have fallen out of the sky with suspicions that there could be some design issue. While the aviation industry debates it whether the 2 crashes are related and whether it indeed IS a design related issue or something else it, as the old adage of "prevention better than cure" goes....better to be safe than sorry."

Just curious. Are you planning a similar cancellation of advisory if these two accidents had causes other than a design issue?

It's amusing. I'm sure we have a lot of "safety-conscious" types avoiding the MAX after reading stuff like this, and then while driving home texting their friends to do likewise.

You can turn on the sarcasm all you want and you can be "amused" about "safety concious" people..BUT LoL...UK, Singapore & Australia have grounded the MAX 8 -
https://www.ft.com/content/f609f36a-449 ... a37d002cd3

cdin844 wrote:

Heard a segment on NPR this morning about grounding all MAX planes. They interviewed a bunch of passengers who were saying that Southwest and American needed to ground their planes and had absolutely nobody on the segment to dispel the hysteria. Not a single person saying that the Lion Air plane was not airworthy at the time of flight, and not a single person saying that we don't yet know the cause of the EA flight. So disappointing to see that kind of coverage.

Well, their excuse is that they are not professionals nor do they understand aviation. What's your excuse, on this board, making statements that ignore basic facts such as sensors being able to fail even during a flight, even if maintenance is perfect? And what is your excuse for ignoring the comparisons of vertical speed fluctuations calculated on this board by OEMInsider, showing eerie similarities?

I think the regulators are making a safe decision. We do not know for sure why these accidents happened. Better ground the planes however, find out, and then continue safe flying, no? What's your issue, that your favourite manufacturer may seem like it has made an error? Or that some money is lost? Boeing will cope with this situation, but they might not cope if they kept claiming everything is fine and then another accident happened.

UK bans B737 Max from UK airspace . Report from BBC business report newsflash as at 17:08 hours GMT

Magog wrote:

Just from a public relations perspective, I do not see how American and Southwest airlines can continue to fly the MAX.

There's no winning for them. I wonder if there's also some pressure from Boeing to remain steady if they believe there really is no problem with the MAX.
I also wonder how insurance plays into the airline's decision to keep flying vs ground.

blueflyer wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

I’m not against a grounding but to say that the 737 certification needs to be retired is absurd.

Retired, not canceled, not withdrawn, not revoked, but retired! As in no new 737 model allowed. It was long overdue even before the two recent crashes. What does a MAX have in common with a 737-100? They do not belong on the same type certificate.

So according to your “expertise” the 737max is so flawed that is should be discontinued and Boeing should exit the 150’seat market. All this based on 2 accidents of which we don’t know the cause or the solution. And yes Boeing wouldn’t be forced out of the 150-200 seat market for the foreseeable future. So I want to know what your background is to make such a demand.

Germany has now closed its airspace to the 737 MAX.

zrb2 wrote:

USA/Canada must know something to keep their planes in the sky at this moment of intense pressure to ground the fleet.

If this is the case, now's the time to speak up. Otherwise it is a blatant disregard for the precautionary principle and, optically, looks like WN, AA, and the FAA are placing profits ahead of safety. There is zero reason for them to be behind the curve set by the rest of the world on this.

Both crashes happened directly after takeoff in climb. Both flights experienced sudden loss of control. Both flightpaths show a vertical zigzag pattern. Enough proof to think it might be the same, or very similar cause. The Max 8 should be grounded, the 787 was grounded for less reason.
I wonder if other airlines pilots had potentially similar, less serious experiences with this type which went unreported so far.

Bobloblaw wrote:

blueflyer wrote:

Bobloblaw wrote:

I’m not against a grounding but to say that the 737 certification needs to be retired is absurd.

Retired, not canceled, not withdrawn, not revoked, but retired! As in no new 737 model allowed. It was long overdue even before the two recent crashes. What does a MAX have in common with a 737-100? They do not belong on the same type certificate.

So according to your “expertise” the 737max is so flawed that is should be discontinued and Boeing should exit the 150’seat market. All this based on 2 accidents of which we don’t know the cause or the solution. And yes Boeing wouldn’t be forced out of the 150-200 seat market for the foreseeable future. So I want to know what your background is to make such a demand.

Didn't you know that everyone here has a PhD in aeronautical engineering with 25+ years work experience?

Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.

Looks like Turkish might be grounding their fleet soon. Number of flights that are normally 737max have been changed to other 737s or A320s like Yaounde. Plus the return of the Nouakchott flight seems unusual especially as Mauritanian Airlines is still operating theirs.

I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro