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747megatop
Posts: 1785
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:37 pm

a350lover wrote:
Conclusion of the day;

People just love ACTION.

No matter how likely it is that you end up tragically involved in an air accident. Email friends and family with an “advisory” of the tragic danger they may assume by flying the MAX8 I guess is a bit of “you love action”, don’t you? With all my respects...

Well; it gets better. CONCLUSION of 2 MAX 8 crashes is that regulators in Australia, UK and Singapore are not liking it and have grounded the MAX 8 - https://www.ft.com/content/f609f36a-449 ... a37d002cd3

So, I am sure you are not going to find it amusing or be sarcastic any longer about the "love for action".
 
bob75013
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:37 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.


Opinions are like buttholes -- everyone has one...
 
Cathay777300ER
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro


I think while it is a concern that groundings are happening before further information is discovered. It is very clear that there was an issue with the 737max in the Lion Air crash. While Lion doesn't have the best record, the fact that AA came out and said they were concerned they had no idea about this feature causes great concern. Further I think the news didn't ground most of these flights, I think it's out of an abundance of safety.
 
zone6
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Appearance is everything. For civil authorities, taking a wait and see attitude is highly problematic. Letting the aircraft continue to operate while data is accumulated is not fulfilling their mandate to ensure safety of the flying public. The only way to know for sure there will not be another similar accident is to park them and go through what we already know.
 
akb88
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Is this whole argument on here really all Boeing vs Airbus, USA vs Everyone else? Yesterday thousands of people contacted airlines flying these planes to make sure they weren't on them, myself included, I didn't get a definite yes or a no so I changed my flights to another airline. MANY others have done the same thing. Meaning that a huge portion of people don't feel safe flying in these planes and from what I've seen on here and elsewhere on the internet that includes aviation professionals from all corners of the world! Some airlines might end up losing a lot of money and some might end up going bust, but when your business model is based on getting people safely from A to B and people DON'T feel safe then some action needs to be taken.
 
seb76
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm

1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


A grounding is never meant to be a sanction towards a manufacturer, just a precautionnary measure to ensure no one gets hurt until we can know for sure that there is nothing wrong with the design. So sometimes, the grounding may be overzealous, but it's better to be safe than sorry.
The second crash may well be totally unrelated to the MCAS or AOA probes, the whitness report even seems to support this theory, but let's be honnest, the FAA put itself in a terrible position.
First, they accepted to certify the current MCAS system, but finally admitted that some welcome improvements would make it "even safer" ... Then they let the planes still fly "unpatched" for a few months (by the way according to the original schedule published in the aftermath of the Lionair crash, the fix is already overdue).
If the FAA was to ground the planes now, that means implicitely admitting that they were wrong when they certified the planes and if the second crash is MCAS related, that were wrong once again when they didn't ground the fleets until the MCAS fix was implemented on each plane.
So what did they choose: prentend that everything is right, that no grounding is necessary and pray that no other accident happens before the MCAS fix is implemented, because you know, it's never bad to install upgrades and updates even if the plane was perfectly safe without them.

To tell that the FAA or authorities can never be influenced by money in the US is laughable. I'm not talking about bribes here, but a company like Boeing working on defense contracts does know how to put some pressure on the politicians (local jobs, meaning for the economy,...). Just remember the tanker deal, won by Airbus, but then finally not...
Let's put indonesia appart for obvious reasons, but UK, Australia, Singapore ... what exactly do they win when they ground 737 MAXs? Hint: I can see the conflict of interest of the FAA regarding Boeing, but none of those other countries have a national company trying to compete with Boeing products.
Last edited by seb76 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:40 pm

Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.

Faro


This works both ways. Manufacturers are (quite rightly) using new media / social media to make people aware of and get people using products far faster than they would have before. The downside is... when the shirt hits the fan, you get what we see today.
 
Jetty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.

Ridiculous and tone-deaf statement indeed. If safety really was their #1 priority they wouldn't have designed MCAS relying on 1 AoA-sensor.
 
juliuswong
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
Looks like Turkish might be grounding their fleet soon. Number of flights that are normally 737max have been changed to other 737s or A320s like Yaounde. Plus the return of the Nouakchott flight seems unusual especially as Mauritanian Airlines is still operating theirs.

Confirmed 8 mins ago. Turkey grounds 737 MAX

https://www.dailysabah.com/tourism/2019 ... opia-crash
https://www.streetinsider.com/Trader+Ta ... 47185.html
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
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bgm
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Why is it that all the people adamantly saying the 737MAX shouldn’t be grounded all seem to come from one country? Think that says a lot.

Thankfully, it seems that an increasing number of countries are not blind sighted and are taking sensible precautions by temporarily grounding the 737 MAX.

Regardless of the cause, the optics are terrible for Boeing, the FAA, and the US carriers who refuse to ground it.
Hires only the best people... lol
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:42 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.


One reason I do not fully trust Boeing on this issue is that for a long time the company dilly-dallied on the 737-200/300 rudder problems in the 1990s.
 
ramzi
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:42 pm

However people spin this, the fact is Boeing admits there is something to be done to improve the safety of this aircraft. The fact that the Lion Air crash was not enough for them to do that immediately, and then the fact that their response to the second crash is so stale is massively disappointing. Over 300 lives were lost, this is not the time to think of your stock price. But the really alarming situation is the FAA's lack of concern. This is starting to look like an unfortunate series of events that will lead to all 73M aircraft being grounded before the FAA admits this should happen. I will be flying out of my way to avoid that plane until further notice.
There will come a time when you believe everything is finished - that will be the beginning.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:43 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


There are two facts, two new 737-8 crashed with loss of all lives under similar circumstances. Boeing and the FAA need to show that the 737MAX is not dangerous.


Exactly.

It's getting ridiculous the lengths people will go to justify avoiding a grounding.

Two of the same type within 6 months (and less than 2 years of EIS), in good weather, in the same phase of flight, with similar indications of sensor or control issues.

If ever I saw a prima facie case for a precautionary grounding of a type, this is it.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:44 pm

bob75013 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I welcome the CAA ban. It puts the right amount on pressure on the manufacturer and other authorities to seriously look into what brought down the ET in a TIMELY manner.



What makes you think that authorities have not been seriously looking into what brought down the ET in a TIMELY manner.


Because 'authorities' like the FAA can be extremely slow in their reaction and very partisan when it comes to deciding which aircraft to ground, and if so how soon...cue the non-grounding of the 737 for specific defects, and instead the knee-jerk grounding of all ATR flights following the Eagle disaster..
Having the CAA ground the MAX will surely have some sort of reverberation across the industry, and *MIGHT* bring forth the possibility of an FAA grounding.... You bet that when the BIG heavyweights of authorities ground a type, then the manufacturer is likely going to get its act together pretty quick and look into the problem as a matter of urgency..
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:46 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
I think while it is a concern that groundings are happening before further information is discovered.


Why?

Ground, ascertain the airframe is safe, then lift the grounding.

If preliminary data gathered over the next 24-48hrs indicates that there is no systematic problem, then the aircraft should be airborne again before the end of the week.

If it turns out there is a problem, then the move to ground could have saved many lives.



I'm not really understanding the logic where folks need to see a smoking gun before taking precautions. Thankfully, most decision-makers across the world share the same opinion as myself. There is enough doubt to the causes as to make the prudent course of action grounding the plane. Evidence gathered over the next few days may allow that decision to be reversed.
 
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Faro
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 pm

ramzi wrote:
However people spin this, the fact is Boeing admits there is something to be done to improve the safety of this aircraft. The fact that the Lion Air crash was not enough for them to do that immediately, and then the fact that their response to the second crash is so stale is massively disappointing. Over 300 lives were lost, this is not the time to think of your stock price. But the really alarming situation is the FAA's lack of concern. This is starting to look like an unfortunate series of events that will lead to all 73M aircraft being grounded before the FAA admits this should happen. I will be flying out of my way to avoid that plane until further notice.



Fully agree on the FAA thing...if this turns out to be in whatever way imputable to B, the FAA should get whacked ten times harder...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
LightChop2Chop
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I have an American MAX 8 flight next week, so I hope it doesn't get grounded.


How do you know you are on a max and not just a regular 737-8? I'm on an AA 737-800 flight next Monday, but cannot tell if it is a max or not...


IF you are flying AA and your itinerary says 737-800 then you are on an 800. if it says 78M then you are on a max
 
vfw614
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:47 pm

With UK, Irish, French and German airspace closed, it more or less means a de facto ban operating the MAX in Europe. Definitively so if the Italians follow suit (Air Italy apparently still operating their MAXs...)
 
Alfons
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:48 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.


One reason I do not fully trust Boeing on this issue is that for a long time the company dilly-dallied on the 737-200/300 rudder problems in the 1990s.


I don't know the past of Boeing so much like you, but I know the present. And this is going to affect me, and people like me which are average joe, to trust in ANY new airplane coming from Boeing, specially because Joe can't always differentiate between a 737 and a 787. But he can see if Boeing is written all over it or not. Don't think product wise, the damage will stick on the brand.
 
Jetty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:48 pm

Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.

There are around 20.000 passenger aircraft in operation. Yet the latest two accidents -and only two in the past year- that killed all passengers happened with a new plane of which only 350 are in service. Do the math.
Last edited by Jetty on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:49 pm

I heard that NTSB was going to the site today. I would not be surprised if their visit and any other preliminary findings are causing a rolling grounding of the planes. Boeing and the remaining American Airlines are going to be in a PR nightmare looks like the old people working over there don't understand that millions of customers are destroying their image on social media and that is more coverage then any newspaper or TV can cover.
 
leghorn
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Norwegian's various brands/AOCs have about 18 737Max planes according to airfleets.net. They seem to be grounded by this. Boeing better do something or that airline will collapse.
 
747megatop
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro

Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet. I think there are enough similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian - brand new MAX 8s falling out of the sky with suspected flight control problems to warrant an immediate precautionary measure while the root cause is investigated (regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia, China are agreeing). Let's not forget the 300+ lives lost...even 1 life lost is 1 too many. We are talking about mass casualty events here (with potential for loss of lives on the ground as well). When people don't see logic they automatically turn to "media furor" or "media bias".

In some incidents (like this) you will have to react and can't wait for conclusive evidence that either links OR does not link the 2 incidents and trace it back to a problem with aircraft and/or training + human error since the risks are too high.
 
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PW100
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

AngMoh wrote:
ELBOB wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
MCAS has a known defect, but with a known cause and resolution. This addresses the known aircraft related factors for the Lion Air crash.


The resolution isn't worth the paper it's written on if it isn't practical in real-life.

It's the difference between "let's practice disabling MCAS" in the simulator and "what the hell is this aeroplane doing?" at 1000ft in the rain and wind.

It reminds me of the old recipe for jugged hare, which started with "First, catch your hare". If you're in a position where you can identify the MCAS as the problem, very good; execute the procedure. But getting to that point when all hell is breaking loose is the challenge.


And it seems the number of MAX simulators are limited and airlines using NG simulators. This might result in a lot of pilots only have read the paperwork and never experienced it in a sim. There might be a mitigation, but the training in this mitigation is insufficient. I am sure that if a pilot only read in a book how to handle an engine out situation and never experienced it in training or ina sim, a number of them would crash the plane the first time they would encounter it.


Do MAX simulators actually have MCAS functionality embedded, or is that part of the sim just a carbon copy of the -800?

And does the sim allow a simulation of a rogue AoA indicator, and all associated hell breaking loose in cockpit with all sorts of warnings going of at the same time? In other words, is such Lion Air scenario actually actively being trained to Max pilots, before they receive their Max (cross) qualification?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
zuckie13
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

I'm torn here.

On one side, I get that some of these agencies are doing these groundings out of an abundance of caution. On the other side, the skeptic in me thinks many of them are more making this a cover your rear type thing.

From a public perspective, I wish we had seen a transcript from the Indonesia crash by now, and I hope that in this one the regulatory agencies will move quickly to release information that backs up these decisions. Right now it seems more based on the "it looks similar" theory and not much else.
 
duboka
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

A good article, why the FAA is irresponsible not to ground the B737MAX:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... uA6cJB6uqw
 
IWMBH
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:52 pm

The Netherlands is closing its airspace too for the MAX https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenl ... -omdraaien (it’s in Dutch)
Last edited by IWMBH on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
akb88
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:52 pm

leghorn wrote:
Norwegian's various brands/AOCs have about 18 737Max planes according to airfleets.net. They seem to be grounded by this. Boeing better do something or that airline will collapse.


18 planes is a lot to shift around . They might have to cancel routes.
I'm glad I made changes yesterday and going with SAS instead.
 
Jetty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:54 pm

The Netherlands closed it's airspace for the 737MAX as well: https://www.trouw.nl/home/ook-nederland ... ~aa670d62/ (Dutch).
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:54 pm

Politics and airplane love aside...

The people that DONT want the 737 Max grounded...

1. Do you have kids?

2. Would you let them fly on one today without reservations?

If you are hedging on 2...you see where the authorities are coming from
Last edited by jfklganyc on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 pm

So at this point most countries and airlines have grounded their MAX’s.
Canada and the US are close to being the only ones left.
I would be will be willing to bet Canada will join soon.
Why would Southwest and AA even take any chances at this point?

Early information from the CEO of Ethiopian indicates flight control problems.

It is time to ground them at this point.
Heia Norge!
 
787SIN
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:55 pm

There’s another thing to possibly consider in all this, if Boeing moves and suggests airlines ground aircraft then they will also be up for the operating losses for all the airlines. They would have seen how the T1000 issues have affected Rolls so they will be acutely aware.

But as its stands I would imagine they could dodge any claim from all the operators leaving any claim to be lodge with the operators insurers if they have grounding cover.

Imagine the costs from 350 or so aircraft grounded. Even if just half the fleet is leased thats around 50million a month at around 300k each lease rate which is fairly typical for a narrow body aircraft. Then there is loss of revenue etc.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Whether there is merit or not, they like it or not, FAA should jump on the bandwagon, take the lead and drive the narrative. The window of opportunity is closing real fast.

Otherwise, they are going to be isolated, which will be a really embarrassing situation.
All posts are just opinions.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:56 pm

bgm wrote:
Why is it that all the people adamantly saying the 737MAX shouldn’t be grounded all seem to come from one country? Think that says a lot.

Thankfully, it seems that an increasing number of countries are not blind sighted and are taking sensible precautions by temporarily grounding the 737 MAX.

Regardless of the cause, the optics are terrible for Boeing, the FAA, and the US carriers who refuse to ground it.


And guess what... it's those same people who would DEMAND an immediate grounding on US territory of a foreign type, it this had had two yet to explain hull losses with so many deaths....
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:57 pm

Boeing probably has reasons to believe that the MAX is safe to operate, and that pilots are trained and merely need to follow standard procedures. And it probably is true. BUT, it is not enough, and groundings are taking place. Likely after investigators announce preliminary findings certain changes will be required. I don't think that MAXs will be flying commercially by the end of the day.
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Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Whether there is merit or not, they like it or not, FAA should jump on the bandwagon, take the lead and drive the narrative. The window of opportunity is closing real fast.

Otherwise, they are going to be isolated, which will be a really embarrassing situation.


Closing?

The horse has bolted, its about 8 miles down the road at this point and is happily grazing with the neighbours mares.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Whether there is merit or not, they like it or not, FAA should jump on the bandwagon, take the lead and drive the narrative. The window of opportunity is closing real fast.

Otherwise, they are going to be isolated, which will be a really embarrassing situation.


Too late to lead and drive the narrative. The best they can do is show they still have some clarity of thinking and are independent of commercial pressures; and then ground the MAX.
 
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PW100
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:58 pm

keesje wrote:
ikarlson wrote:
Olddog wrote:

It just means that more and more countries understand that the FAA IS not a safety body but works to protect the US aviation industry first...

What about Norwegian, S7, FlyDubai, TUI and many others that didn't ground MAX and using them right now? They got nothing to do with US aviation industry


I think those airlines should ask the Singapore & Australian authorities, tell them they don't understand. The FAA did the testing & certification themselves with Boeing. Those airlines have much to do with the US aviation industry. They are spending hundreds of millions between them, with or without discounts.


Five hours down the road, and the scope has already changed very significantly . . . Norwegian and TUI now also grounded.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:59 pm

duboka wrote:
A good article, why the FAA is irresponsible not to ground the B737MAX:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... uA6cJB6uqw


Ouch. The article seems to (quite rightly) take issue with Boeing's new statement of "making an already safe aircraft safer" while bodies were still being recovered from the latest crash.
 
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CrimsonNL
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:59 pm

Jetty wrote:
The Netherlands closed it's airspace for the 737MAX as well: https://www.trouw.nl/home/ook-nederland ... ~aa670d62/ (Dutch).


Interestingly enough, TUI Netherlands' TFN and TFO are currently enroute from HRG/BJL to AMS. I wonder where they'll end up

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
747megatop
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:59 pm

Alfons wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
Boeing latest statement:

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-relea ... tem=130403

Utterly shameless IMHO. Disgusting even.


One reason I do not fully trust Boeing on this issue is that for a long time the company dilly-dallied on the 737-200/300 rudder problems in the 1990s.


I don't know the past of Boeing so much like you, but I know the present. And this is going to affect me, and people like me which are average joe, to trust in ANY new airplane coming from Boeing, specially because Joe can't always differentiate between a 737 and a 787. But he can see if Boeing is written all over it or not. Don't think product wise, the damage will stick on the brand.

Don't worry, here are some of the amusing things i have heard from average joe
1) Airbus? What is that?
2) Boeing? What is that?
3) All international flights are operated on 4 engined planes.
4) Here is the best one...2 of my friends arguing..one was confidently telling the other...777 has 4 ENGINES!!

Point i am making....many avergage joes are clueless...just as the average aviation expert or for that matter some working in the aviation industry..would be clueless about cars. Once this issue is fixed it will be business as normal for everyone. IMHO no reason to avoid Boeing..avoid MAX 8 in the short term...sure...since regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia have spoken our loud and clear.
 
User avatar
MrBrightSide
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:48 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:00 pm

While I do respect every individual on this board, public transportation, regardless of the mode of transportation - safety comes as a number one priority in any operation. There's nothing nationalistic (if this was happening to an EU-made airframe, I wonder which side of the pond would be calling for grounding) in taking a cautious approach. The fact of the matter is that Boeing hid MCAS function from the pilots and it is a function that takes away control from the PIC. That is not acceptable for any transportation vehicle.

When it comes to the actual case, unfortunately the way how it stands is that we practically have one tragically deceased paying passenger and crew for each 737 MAX delivered, and that is unprecedented in modern aviation history. Regardless of the causes being interconnected or not (we do not have information and it is too early to call it), SAFETY always has to come in the first place.

And for those that are arguing (and loosing that argument on hourly basis, as civil aviation authorities and airlines themselves are massively grounding the type) that those birds should continue flying, imagine this less likely scenario: Boeing keeps on flying the 737 MAX and FAA keeps on giving them "a pass" (since anything else is admission of FAA's error during certification), and then we have a third MAX 8 that goes down. That would be the end of the commercial success of the program - Death Cruiser (DC-10) comes to mind. This does not mean MAX would disappear (5000+ on order), but the number of conversions to MAX 9/10/797 (NMA) would probably sent the MAX 8 to dust bin.

Members of this forum have a tendency of forgetting that human capital is resource #1 in vast majority of organizations around the globe. Those companies are what keeps airlines in the business - for example, my organization put a ban on MAX 8 on Sunday afternoon, and by today (Tuesday evening Gulf time), I've heard more than dozen companies have put a stop notice. One of those notices comes from a company that makes a double digit revenue impact on one NA carrier. Them switching airlines would be a shock to the hub, but not an impossible scenario if any of their employees could end up hurt. Suing the company is super-easy these days.

At the end of the day, it's simple. Boeing 787 was grounded for months. Today we have how many hundreds of 787 birds flying and no one remembers burned batteries, fire on the roof at LHR etc. Why? Because the aircraft was grounded and in turn created a push among Boeing's management who shunned hordes of brilliant engineers in favor of outsourcing. the number of my retired friends that left SoCal for WA to fix the 787 was to the tune of two dozen people.

737 MAX has to be grounded. Fixed. Back in the air. Any further loss of human life would be irresponsible and downright criminal.

Edit: typos.
Last edited by MrBrightSide on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There's no better way to travel than fly (shameless rip of LH's slogan ;-)
 
B747forever
Posts: 13848
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:00 pm

So pretty much WS, AC, AA, WN and UA are the only remaining MAX operators.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:01 pm

Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
11 Grounded Turkish Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
3 Grounded Icelandair
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines


34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
7 In use Smartwings
6 In use Copa Airlines
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT

5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

Countries that have banned Max 8 or Max family from operating in their territories:
Malaysia
Australia
Oman
Singapore
China
Indonesia
UK
Germany
France
Ireland
The Netherlands
Europe-wide (To be confirmed, see link below)

LATEST UPDATES:
Norwegian Air grounds its Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QT1U5

TUI Group grounds all 737 Max operation
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 16301.html

Icelandair Group suspends operation of three Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Turkish Airlines grounds Boeing 737 Max planes after Ethiopia crash
https://af.reuters.com/article/commodit ... FI7N20U00O

France, Germany and Ireland ban 737Max operation consecutively
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190312/france ... ines-crash
https://www.businessinsider.com/germany ... 19-3/?IR=T
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -boeing-m/

Europe Preparing to Ground Boeing 737 Max After U.K. Halts Flights
http://fortune.com/2019/03/12/europe-uk ... g-737-max/
Last edited by juliuswong on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 1987
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:02 pm

747megatop wrote:
Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro

Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet. I think there are enough similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian - brand new MAX 8s falling out of the sky with suspected flight control problems to warrant an immediate precautionary measure while the root cause is investigated (regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia, China are agreeing). Let's not forget the 300+ lives lost...even 1 life lost is 1 too many. We are talking about mass casualty events here (with potential for loss of lives on the ground as well). When people don't see logic they automatically turn to "media furor" or "media bias".

In some incidents (like this) you will have to react and can't wait for conclusive evidence that either links OR does not link the 2 incidents and trace it back to a problem with aircraft and/or training + human error since the risks are too high.



I quite understand the rationale behind a precautionary grounding yes...but we are lacking so much information at this stage that the link between JT and ET is extremely tenuous for the moment...not to talk of walking back the damage to the MAX brand if ET should prove to have no MCAS link...I think there’s a fair chance it could be terminal...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
IWMBH
Posts: 626
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:02 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Lucky Air
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines

34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai
11 In use Turkish Airlines
7 In use Smartwings
6 In use Copa Airlines
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
3 In use Air Italy
3 In use Icelandair
2 In use Fiji Airways
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT

5 Unknown LOT
2 Unknown Enter Air
1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

Countries that have banned Max 8 or Max family from operating in their territories:
Malaysia
Australia
Oman
Singapore
China
Indonesia
UK
Germany
France
Ireland

LATEST UPDATES:
Norwegian Air grounds its Boeing 737 MAX 8 jets
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKBN1QT1U5

TUI Group grounds all 737 Max operation
https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/co ... 16301.html

Icelandair Group suspends operation of three Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... craft.html

Turkish Airlines grounds Boeing 737 Max planes after Ethiopia crash
https://af.reuters.com/article/commodit ... FI7N20U00O

France, Germany and Ireland ban 737Max operation consecutively
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190312/france ... ines-crash
https://www.businessinsider.com/germany ... 19-3/?IR=T
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... -boeing-m/

Europe Preparing to Ground Boeing 737 Max After U.K. Halts Flights
http://fortune.com/2019/03/12/europe-uk ... g-737-max/


You miss The Netherlands in your list https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenl ... -omdraaien
 
akb88
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:02 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
akb88 wrote:
Is this whole argument on here really all Boeing vs Airbus, USA vs Everyone else? Yesterday thousands of people contacted airlines flying these planes to make sure they weren't on them, myself included, I didn't get a definite yes or a no so I changed my flights to another airline. MANY others have done the same thing. Meaning that a huge portion of people don't feel safe flying in these planes and from what I've seen on here and elsewhere on the internet that includes aviation professionals from all corners of the world! Some airlines might end up losing a lot of money and some might end up going bust, but when your business model is based on getting people safely from A to B and people DON'T feel safe then some action needs to be taken.


OT but hope you got a refund if your MAX flight changed!


I doubt I will since I made the changes before the grounding was made official and also Norwegian never really refunds.
But I don't feel this is off topic, it alludes to why airlines and regulators should ground the planes, people clearly don't feel safe on them seeing that there have been two major accidents that are both unsolved but share very similar circumstances.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:02 pm

787SIN wrote:
There’s another thing to possibly consider in all this, if Boeing moves and suggests airlines ground aircraft then they will also be up for the operating losses for all the airlines. They would have seen how the T1000 issues have affected Rolls so they will be acutely aware.

But as its stands I would imagine they could dodge any claim from all the operators leaving any claim to be lodge with the operators insurers if they have grounding cover.

Imagine the costs from 350 or so aircraft grounded. Even if just half the fleet is leased thats around 50million a month at around 300k each lease rate which is fairly typical for a narrow body aircraft. Then there is loss of revenue etc.



I was thinking about this earlier this morning. I don't know much about how this legally works, but if Boeing tells airlines to ground the MAX, would they not financially be on the hook for that while if airlines ground the planes themselves or if independent regulatory bodies ground the plane (while Boeing continues to say they don't see a reason for doing so) would they not be on the hook? Could someone chime in on this?

That could be one of the reasons they're not calling for a grounding as in just 24-48 hours over half the fleet has been grounded by airlines themselves and other regulatory bodies.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3573
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:03 pm

[url][/url]
Jetty wrote:
Looks like the FAA will be the very last to ban the 737MAX. But what more can you expect from a regulator that deemed MCAS needed for an unstable plane based one AoA sensor safe?


FAA or Transport Canada. Air Canada would need to bring back aging A320 planes...some below line number 100.
 
seat1a
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:03 pm

Slightly off-topic, what is happening on the operations side of the business to compensate for aircraft being grounded? Are there spares in an airlines fleet? What contingencies have been put into motion since this accident? Thanks.

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