brunoguemes
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:33 pm

Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.

Well, it is the age of social media so it is only natural.
Businesses rely on PR, elections are won meddling with them, reputations torn and lies widespread.
So it is understandable that companies of a business that relies a lot on trust and safety will take this seriously for safety and pr reasons.
This is the world we live in.
BTW... I think grounding is also just being safe, not only PR. Let's stop worrying so much about Boeing's rep and shares. If investigations say it.shouldn't have been grounded, they will be cleared of doubt and the model will rise.
But if the investigations say it should be grounded, beware of the reaction towards those who did not ground it and their safety reviews in social platforms, also if they say it.should be, was the risk worth it? What if there is another accident and the investigations say it should have? Would you take that risk?
 
 
GRJGeorge
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:34 pm

Think there are some clarity needed on the difference between an airline grounding its fleet vs a country banning...ie: in South Africa, Comair grounded their aircraft, but the SACAA did not.
In what cases are there airlines that grounded their fleet, but the country's authority didnt?
And what airlines that did not ground so far, are though being affected by countries banning them from their airspace...guess like the Canadian operators using Max to Europe...TK to Europe (and to parts in Africa), are FlyDubai affected on any routes...Fiji by the Australian ban...etc?
 
1ffb2002
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:35 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


There are two facts, two new 737-8 crashed with loss of all lives under similar circumstances. Boeing and the FAA need to show that the 737MAX is not dangerous.


Not similar circumstances, one achieved 10,000 ft in altitude, retracted flaps, pilots unaware of MCAS system which was enabled, and the aircraft had a previously reported AOA instrument issue. For ET, the planecould not climb, probably never retracted flaps, which means the MCAS system was not enabled. The pilots were aware of MCAS, but given the low altitude of the plane when control was lost, flaps were not retracted and therefore MCAS could not be an issue with this plane. I have not read of any issues with the plane's equipment. These are very different circumstances. Only the media seems to be conflating these crashes, but that is to be expected.
 
evank516
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:35 pm

Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Considering social media is still relatively new, especially the influence social media has on society, of course it is the first time. It didn't exist when the DC-10 was having its problems, or when ValuJet was around. If it was, I'm willing to bet it would have had a part in the way those situations were handled as well.
 
AviationBob
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Haha, good point! I really hope that if the FAA does ground the fleet it's based on a real data pointing to a design flaw rather than arm-chair conjecture or because it will make people feel good and everyone else is doing it, and the "it will just look good" band-wagon.
 
mrbots
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Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:31 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Some numbers from Boeing's plane launches since the 80's:
B737 Classic was in service 5 years before the first fatality
B737NG was in service 4 years before the first fatality
B757 was in service for 7 years before the first fatality
B767 was in service for 9 years before the first fatality
B777 was in service for 6 years before the first fatality
B787 has been in service for over 7 years with zero fatailities

B737 MAX has been in service less than 2 years

NG total fatalities after 22 years in service: 437
MAX total fatalities in less than 2 years: 338
Last edited by mrbots on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:37 pm

With an increasing number of authorities and airlines grounding this type I have to think that they have more information which justifies the grounding...
 
S0Y
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

GRJGeorge wrote:
...TK to Europe (and to parts in Africa), a?


TK have already grounded
 
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Channex757
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

akb88 wrote:
Also something must have come out of some of the investigations if authorities in the UK for instance took inititive and banned them from their airspace.

I love that expression "abundance of caution". It's the bedrock of safety culture in aviation and always should be.

In some ways there is a very slight positive here in that this is all happening in the Northern winter season. Hopefully the issue can be tackled before the summer flying gets underway with planes flying flat out.
 
D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


I disagree. WN and AA gave pilots who know how to follow their training an emergency procedures should it become necessary. That said, it hasn’t been necessary for those airlines.

What is a bad safety culture and putting money first is dispatching an airplane with a know AOA vane problem.

Wait, do you know that? Because people have been asking that question: whether any other MAX drivers have had to perform the trim stab procedure in response to MCAS activation.
 
pugman211
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Boeing, use your heads! Get some of your test pilots into the air and prove the MAX is as safe as you claim. If public outcry is damaging your PR, be bold and prove people wrong.

Simples!
 
Jamie514
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Isn't AC now directly affected by this due to their MAX flights to LHR?

I know they had other TATL ops announced, had any destinations commenced?

I cannot fathom how from a PR perspective Air Canada in particular can simultaneously
-be forced to cancel or re-equip those specific flights affected by operating into UK/EU space with government imposed bans and groundings issued out of an abundance of caution
-continue to refuse to re-accomodate or refund otherwise affected domestic and transborder customers booked on the MAX, in full view of the relevant commercial aviation safety agencies of several of our closest trade and intelligence allies now imposing this interim ban, good ol USA not withstanding.


edited to add two news links:
Air Canada cancels flights after U.K. closes airspace to Boeing 737 Max 8
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.5052946

Passengers looking to avoid Boeing 737 Max 8 find little help from Canada's airlines
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing ... -1.5052823
Last edited by Jamie514 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA940
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:39 pm

Neither side is wrong here. ET302 could very well be a completely unrelated incident for all we, the general public, know. Being cautious after an accident isn't at all irrational, however I can see where the FAA and TSB are coming from. Let's just hope this is indeed an unrelated incident, and we won't hear about a 737 MAX crash in North America soon...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
bob75013
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:44 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
I'm sure they have shared amongst themselves and the FAA. Maybe that's why neither have grounded the plane.


You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it; regulatory capture is A Thing. And not to put a fine point on it, but China has quite a bit of experience with the MAX as well as WN; it was the first country to ground the plane.




So I presume you mean to imply that if SWAPA screamed to the FAA that the plane is not safe, that the FAA would ignore that? WN has over 41,000 MAX flights worth of data, I suspect that WN knows a hell of a lot more about the plane than you do.

Instead SWPA proclaimed that it thinks the plane is safe. SO SWAPA apparently did not scream about an unsafe plane. tt proclaimed it's members would not hesitate to put family members on MAXs. I'm sure that's what they'd say about an unsafe plane -- wouldn't they?
Last edited by bob75013 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Aither
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:45 pm

max999 wrote:
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Let's have a serious discussion instead of using excuses to divert the conversation away from any fault in the design of the 737 MAX. In this thread, I've seen the following diversions being used: poor piloting, poor safety culture in '3rd world' (not my terminology) countries, bad maintenance practices, terrorism, cargo fire, millennials, and now the new one...social media. What's the next diversion? Act of God?


I am serious.
Without the crazy importance of (social) media I believe not many would have grounded the aircraft.

Because at the end of the day people must answer a simple question : do you trust the FAA / Boeing ? yes or no.
If no, then ground all your aircraft, whatever the type.
So the grounding of the max, it's mostly about protecting reputation.
Never trust the obvious
 
bob75013
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:45 pm

pugman211 wrote:
Boeing, use your heads! Get some of your test pilots into the air and prove the MAX is as safe as you claim.
Simples!


So what should those pilots be looking for?
 
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spinotter
Posts: 514
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:45 pm

Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


But social media never had the importance it now has in a potential grounding scenario in the past. What are people thinking about an American grounding? Maybe it has already happened and I haven't caught up yet.
 
IWMBH
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:46 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.


Depends on what it considered "short timeframe". Statistically the A320 had a rougher start. Two were lost before even 100 were in service. Three before 300. A fourth by around 400 in service. It's not just how quickly two crashes happen that determines relative safety.


Statically you’re right but these incidents where spread over 4 years. This means that the cause of the crashes was known before the next one happend. I’m not saying the Max is unsafe but two crashes without knowing the cause makes people nervous.
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:47 pm

EASA grounds all 737MAX-8 and -9
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:52 pm

Maybe the FAA & Boeing don't understand.

Otherwise they wouldn't have put themselves in this corner.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
petertenthije
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm

According to Dutch NOS news, the EU has just grounded the MAX.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2275627-luchtvaa ... 7-max.html

Edited to add link.
Last edited by petertenthije on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Attamottamotta!
 
Sokes
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:54 pm

Did I understand this right that a safety critical software relies on two sensors?
Speaking of redundancy:
" On September 22, 1981, Eastern Airlines Flight 935 departed Newark, New Jersey, and suffered an uncontained failure of its number two (tail) engine at 14,500 feet (4,400 m), while en route to San Juan, Puerto Rico.[80][81] The fragments from that engine damaged three of its four hydraulic systems resulting in fluid loss in them. The rudder pedals also jammed. The fragments struck but did not puncture the lines for the other hydraulic system; the captain was able to safely land the aircraft ... "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... _incidents

I found Fukushima hard to believe. Each Indian shopkeeper knows one can't keep an emergency generator in the rain. How to keep emergency generators for a nuclear power plant in a tsunami area on ground floor?

In 2008 in Germany an axle of a high speed train ICE 3 broke. After that they reduced the time between checks from 300.000 km to 60.000 km.
Shortly later a similar axle in a train designed to bend in curves to allow for higher speeds had a 2mm deep crack, which led to further reduced intervals. The railways were fast in buying new ultrasounds.
Of course the railway blamed Siemens and Siemens was not keen to quarrel with the railway management, which are politicians.
So Siemens agreed to design new axles.
How urgent that was can be seen on the fact that finally only 50, not all trains, got new axles and that also till 2017.
Which means around nine years after the axle broke. Cars have rubber tyres which dampen vibrations.
Evidence suggests to me that checking the axles of trains (specially high speed ones) every 300.000 km is not good enough
(Similar you should check your tyre pressure more often than every 300.000 km.)

Maybe for safety critical products/ services companies need to employ people in a position of authority who got testified from their former school that they they have a defiant personality disorder.
Or during search for engineering employees:
"At equal suitability people with defiant personality disorder will be given preference."

Additionally one could post Proverbs 9,8 in each manager's office:
"Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you."
Or maybe Proverbs 13,18:
"Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured."

Though the last sentence may not be true. Boni for managers probably continue.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:54 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
EASA grounds all 737MAX-8 and -9


It factually already happened.

FAA & Muilenberg better have a rock solid explanation now.

"W'll review" was good enough 2 days ago.
Last edited by keesje on Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
1ffb2002
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:58 pm

uta999 wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


You might not feel the same way if like that Slovakian MP, you had lost your wife and two children in this latest crash.


What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act. If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face. I have flown on the MAX. It is no different than the hundreds of 737 flights I have been on. All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing. Yet everyone is jumping to conclusions. Remember, the initial read from these accidents is almost entirely wrong. I want to get the data then determine what to do. And you can dispense with the hyperbolic and melodramatic pleas. This is an aviation forum where we try to deal in facts and data.
 
Cathay777300ER
Posts: 41
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:58 pm

From what I can see now including affected airlines
Thanks to JuliusWong for previous list

Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
11 Grounded Turkish Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded Smartwings
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
5 Grounded LOT
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Air Italy
3 Grounded Lucky Air
3 Grounded Icelandair
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Enter Air
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Corendon Airlines
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines


34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada (Affected by EASA's ban)
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai (Affected by EASA's ban)
6 In use Copa Airlines
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
2 In use Fiji Airways (Affected by Australia's ban)
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT


1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines
 
Dominion301
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:58 pm

FCAFLYBOY wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


To be fair, all that was posted in regards to that is hear'say - I don't see any link to anything official, and that is also not what Zuckie was saying.

I also agree, and I'm surprised to hear that the WN Pilot's Union has unilaterally agreed how marvelous and safe the MAX is... it's going to be a long day, and I dare say at least 1 NA-based carrier will ground before the day is out. Hopefully all of them.


Two of them already have. Cayman and Aeromexico.

Cathay777300ER wrote:
From what I can see now including affected airlines
Thanks to JuliusWong for previous list

Number of 737 MAX in Fleet Status Airline
22 Grounded China Southern Airlines
18 Grounded Norwegian Air
15 Grounded Air China
15 Grounded TUI fly
11 Grounded Hainan Airlines
11 Grounded Shanghai Airlines
11 Grounded Turkish Airlines
10 Grounded Xiamen Airlines
10 Grounded Lion Air
9 Grounded Jet Airways (includes 4 being repossessed by lessors due to non-payment)
7 Grounded Shandong Airlines
7 Grounded Smartwings
7 Grounded GOL Airlines
6 Grounded SilkAir
6 Grounded Shenzhen Airlines
6 Grounded Aeromexico
5 Grounded Aerolineas Argentinas
5 Grounded Oman Air
5 Grounded LOT
4 Grounded Ethiopian Airlines
4 Grounded China Eastern Airlines
3 Grounded Air Italy
3 Grounded Lucky Air
3 Grounded Icelandair
2 Grounded Cayman Airways
2 Grounded Enter Air
2 Grounded Fuzhou Airlines
2 Grounded Kunming Airlines
2 Grounded Okay Airways
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
2 Grounded Royal Air Maroc
2 Grounded Eastar Jet
1 Grounded 9 Air
1 Grounded Garuda Indonesia
1 Grounded Corendon Airlines
1 Grounded Comair
1 Grounded MIAT Mongolian Airlines


34 In use Southwest Airlines
24 In use Air Canada (Affected by EASA's ban)
24 In use American Airlines
13 In use SpiceJet
13 In use WestJet
11 In use FlyDubai (Affected by EASA's ban)
6 In use Copa Airlines
4 In use Sunwing Airlines
2 In use Fiji Airways (Affected by Australia's ban)
2 In use S7 Airlines
1 In use SCAT


1 Unknown Mauritania Airlines


So if my math's right, as of 1400 Eastern Time, 224 are grounded and 134 still flying + 1 unknown
Last edited by Dominion301 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
pugman211
Posts: 468
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:58 pm

bob75013 wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Boeing, use your heads! Get some of your test pilots into the air and prove the MAX is as safe as you claim.
Simples!


So what should those pilots be looking for?



As I've stated, they are not looking for a fault. They are proving their confidence in their product. Sure, they could run some tests of their own. Or they could place the aircraft into a profile (at sufficient height to recover) that they know would trigger MCAS to verify it still does what it was programmed to do.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:58 pm

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 381656.cms

Times of India is now reporting that MAX will likely be banned tomorrow.
 
cdin844
Posts: 34
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:59 pm

keesje wrote:
Maybe the FAA & Boeing don't understand.

Otherwise they wouldn't have put themselves in this corner.


Don't understand what? I think it's clear they have put themselves in this corner for several reasons. One, Boeing doesn't want to admit fault here. Two, the American airlines flying MAX series planes don't want to admit fault here (i.e., grounding planes = we've been flying faulty planes). FAA is under pressure by both Boeing and AA/WN/UA to not force them to admit fault unless they have hard evidence. Other countries are more interested in protecting safety over protecting profits, but this is America...
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 640
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:59 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
FCAFLYBOY wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:

So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


To be fair, all that was posted in regards to that is hear'say - I don't see any link to anything official, and that is also not what Zuckie was saying.

I also agree, and I'm surprised to hear that the WN Pilot's Union has unilaterally agreed how marvelous and safe the MAX is... it's going to be a long day, and I dare say at least 1 NA-based carrier will ground before the day is out. Hopefully all of them.


Two of them already have. Cayman and Aeromexico.


For clarity I was referring more to AC/WS/UA/WN/AA but fair point.
 
StTim
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:00 pm

There is some amazing whataboutism going on here. Please keep to the topic!
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:03 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.

I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.

Maybe you should rethink that. I found this on page 30 of the crash thread.

A320FlyGuy wrote:
It is easy to forget just how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. When you look at the first and second generation jet transport aircraft, their safety records were downright abysmal:

Boeing 707:

1962:
- March 1 - American Airlines Flight 1
- June 3 - Air France 007
- June 22 - Air France 117
- November 27 - Varig 810

4 crashes in 8 months with a total of 435 fatalities

Boeing 727:

1965 (First Year of Service)

August 16 - United 389
November 8 - American 383
November 11 - United 227

3 crashes in 87 days with a total of 131 fatalities
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:04 pm

GRJGeorge wrote:
Think there are some clarity needed on the difference between an airline grounding its fleet vs a country banning...ie: in South Africa, Comair grounded their aircraft, but the SACAA did not.
In what cases are there airlines that grounded their fleet, but the country's authority didnt?
And what airlines that did not ground so far, are though being affected by countries banning them from their airspace...guess like the Canadian operators using Max to Europe...TK to Europe (and to parts in Africa), are FlyDubai affected on any routes...Fiji by the Australian ban...etc?


Took the words right out of my mouth, especially with respect to AC and WS.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Cathay777300ER
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm

It looks like TUI is diverting it's flights now. Smartwings is still flying including from Iceland to canarys. They have an hour to land before EASA ban. One Norwegian flight on the way home now. One FlyDubai flight on the way to Helsinki. Most likely won't be allowed into Finnish airspace so might end up in Saint Petersburg.
Last edited by Cathay777300ER on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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remcor
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
If only Boeing had not designed the altitude measurement system on the basis of this radical "round earth" theory that is running amok.


Good point. Clearly the folks at Boeing don't have enough time watch hours of videos from the depths of Youtube. Except that shouldn't this mean that the plane would be pulling up and would fly into the disk-like sun that's only a few thousand miles away? Hmmm, so maybe this isn't the reason.
 
Arion640
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm

Airlines doing there best to get their fleets home judging by flightradar.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
STLflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm

1ffb2002 wrote:
uta999 wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


You might not feel the same way if like that Slovakian MP, you had lost your wife and two children in this latest crash.


What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act. If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face. I have flown on the MAX. It is no different than the hundreds of 737 flights I have been on. All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing. Yet everyone is jumping to conclusions. Remember, the initial read from these accidents is almost entirely wrong. I want to get the data then determine what to do. And you can dispense with the hyperbolic and melodramatic pleas. This is an aviation forum where we try to deal in facts and data.


Sadly, even if ET turns out to be pilot error, pilot suicide, terrorism or something else completely unrelated to the MAX, the damage to the reputation is done
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:07 pm

D L X wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


I disagree. WN and AA gave pilots who know how to follow their training an emergency procedures should it become necessary. That said, it hasn’t been necessary for those airlines.

What is a bad safety culture and putting money first is dispatching an airplane with a know AOA vane problem.

Wait, do you know that? Because people have been asking that question: whether any other MAX drivers have had to perform the trim stab procedure in response to MCAS activation.


No I don’t know it, I guess. It hasn’t been reported to my knowledge though.
 
Cathay777300ER
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:08 pm

Germany has stated that 737 MAX 8 and 9 will be banned until June 12th. Seems rather long at this point.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6259
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:08 pm

STLflyer wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
uta999 wrote:

You might not feel the same way if like that Slovakian MP, you had lost your wife and two children in this latest crash.


What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act. If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face. I have flown on the MAX. It is no different than the hundreds of 737 flights I have been on. All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing. Yet everyone is jumping to conclusions. Remember, the initial read from these accidents is almost entirely wrong. I want to get the data then determine what to do. And you can dispense with the hyperbolic and melodramatic pleas. This is an aviation forum where we try to deal in facts and data.


Sadly, even if ET turns out to be pilot error, pilot suicide, terrorism or something else completely unrelated to the MAX, the damage to the reputation is done


Yep. All the experts on A.net are sure it’s MCAS though. But your point is valid.
 
cdin844
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Airlines doing there best to get their fleets home judging by flightradar.
American airlines or are you referring to the other grounded ones?
 
hibtastic
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:54 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm

I cannot believe some of the posts I have read trying to make excuses for the fact that authorities and airlines have chosen to ground their MAX fleets. As others have said, the onus should be on Boeing to prove beyond doubt that the aircraft is safe. Until then, the cautious approach should be applauded and not ridiculed or even as one person suggested stated that those that prefer Airbus planes are reveling in all of this. That is ridiculous! Sadly and regrettably, over 300 people have died on a MAX in the last two months and until we know that there is not a fault with the aircraft, grounding them is the correct and only thing to do.

Over to you Boeing...
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:09 pm

STLflyer wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
uta999 wrote:

You might not feel the same way if like that Slovakian MP, you had lost your wife and two children in this latest crash.


What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act. If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face. I have flown on the MAX. It is no different than the hundreds of 737 flights I have been on. All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing. Yet everyone is jumping to conclusions. Remember, the initial read from these accidents is almost entirely wrong. I want to get the data then determine what to do. And you can dispense with the hyperbolic and melodramatic pleas. This is an aviation forum where we try to deal in facts and data.


Sadly, even if ET turns out to be pilot error, pilot suicide, terrorism or something else completely unrelated to the MAX, the damage to the reputation is done


Only to airbus geeks.
Rest will still get on board and travel to their destination not knowing what they flew in. 787 is the perfect example not to mention it is an extremely successful plane.
SJW never win. They just bark loud and get shut in the end. Well unless it's B that messed up for real this time but for that answer we have to wait till officials finish the investigation.
Last edited by PixelPilot on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2137
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:10 pm

FCAFLYBOY wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
FCAFLYBOY wrote:

To be fair, all that was posted in regards to that is hear'say - I don't see any link to anything official, and that is also not what Zuckie was saying.

I also agree, and I'm surprised to hear that the WN Pilot's Union has unilaterally agreed how marvelous and safe the MAX is... it's going to be a long day, and I dare say at least 1 NA-based carrier will ground before the day is out. Hopefully all of them.


Two of them already have. Cayman and Aeromexico.


For clarity I was referring more to AC/WS/UA/WN/AA but fair point.


Ah got ya! ...and you can add WG with their 4 MAXes in there too. :)
 
bob75013
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:11 pm

pugman211 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Boeing, use your heads! Get some of your test pilots into the air and prove the MAX is as safe as you claim.
Simples!


So what should those pilots be looking for?



As I've stated, they are not looking for a fault. They are proving their confidence in their product. Sure, they could run some tests of their own. Or they could place the aircraft into a profile (at sufficient height to recover) that they know would trigger MCAS to verify it still does what it was programmed to do.


Boeing already has real life data from tens of thousands of flights and is likely seeking all it can get from everywhere in the world.

Putting test pilots in the air to search for some type of unknown problem solves nothing.

When someone has some idea of what exactly to look for, maybe that works.
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2083
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:13 pm

keesje wrote:
Netherlands authorities are fully aligned with EASA. This seems a kind of pre-warning to FAA, giving them some time.


Looks like OR458 is headed for the Canaries! PHTFN

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2237
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:13 pm

remcor wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
If only Boeing had not designed the altitude measurement system on the basis of this radical "round earth" theory that is running amok.


Good point. Clearly the folks at Boeing don't have enough time watch hours of videos from the depths of Youtube. Except that shouldn't this mean that the plane would be pulling up and would fly into the disk-like sun that's only a few thousand miles away? Hmmm, so maybe this isn't the reason.


Maybe it flew too close to the Sun and the wax melted??


Given the unknowns, the prudent option has been taken pretty much everywhere except North America. A few days will see it back in the air if its no big problem.
Last edited by Amiga500 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
1ffb2002
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:

What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act. If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face. I have flown on the MAX. It is no different than the hundreds of 737 flights I have been on. All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing. Yet everyone is jumping to conclusions. Remember, the initial read from these accidents is almost entirely wrong. I want to get the data then determine what to do. And you can dispense with the hyperbolic and melodramatic pleas. This is an aviation forum where we try to deal in facts and data.


Sadly, even if ET turns out to be pilot error, pilot suicide, terrorism or something else completely unrelated to the MAX, the damage to the reputation is done


Yep. All the experts on A.net are sure it’s MCAS though. But your point is valid.


MCAS is NOT operative when flaps are deployed. The ET aircraft never achieved sufficient altitude to retract flaps. So what am I missing. I learned this whilst reading the posts here on Anet. This has been further confirmed by other news articles I have read. And your point is?
 
SimonL
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:38 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm

13th of January 2013 the FAA stated that "so far nothing found suggests [the 787] is not safe". The plane was grounded 3 days later, the same day that the ANA plane did its emergency landing. So things can happens rather quick.
Last edited by SimonL on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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