Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt.

Honestly, I don't. And I'm sure EASA and others don't.
That doesn't come into play when deciding on groundings, though. Aviation authorities don't appoint blame as such, either.
They are tasked with keeping the flying public safe.

The 787 battery grounding wasn't about hurting Boeing. It was about keeping the flying public safe.
There was an issue that had the potential to down an airliner and that reoccurred with initially unknown exact cause - and while that issue persisted and no workaround/solution was available and implemented, the fleet stayed on the ground.
Last edited by anfromme on Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
42
 
estorilm
Posts: 762
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
estorilm wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt.

That's absolutely not true, not even close. There are a number of variables and factors at play, but we've seen the MCAS input graphs from Lion Air. Regardless of something possibly being mis-handled by the flight crew, that is a FACT and it's a system unique to the MAX, as are its handling characteristics. I think everyone would like to take a closer look at this point, without tens of thousands of human guinea pigs flying around.


The only fact here is that Lion Air deemed the plane as operational even after consecutive reports of something not working right.
Negligence on their part. Everything else is secondary.

I said there were other contributing factors (such as mx for example) that's certainly not the ONLY fact.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:54 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Never thought FAA, BCA duo will corner themselves like this. All their close partners jumped ship. What will be the exit strategy? It is not that just North American carriers can buy all 5000 planes.

What happens to lease/finance/PBTH payments for these grounded planes? Are airlines still responsible?


Boeing will be presented the bill.


For what lol?
Did the investigations end already and Boeing was found deliberately manufacturing duds?
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:55 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Never thought FAA, BCA duo will corner themselves like this. All their close partners jumped ship. What will be the exit strategy? It is not that just North American carriers can buy all 5000 planes.

What happens to lease/finance/PBTH payments for these grounded planes? Are airlines still responsible?


Boeing will be presented the bill.


For what lol?
Did the investigations end already and Boeing was found deliberately manufacturing duds?


It doesn't matter at this point. Now that politics has become involved it no longer is a simple matter of contract law.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:58 pm

If it turns out to be negligence on the part of the crew or maintenance then Boeing should give some thought about whether to sell to exotic airlines. It doesn't seem to be worth the headache when they crash one. How many 737's has Lion Air crashed now? Maybe a stipulation that they will also not support used aircraft that have been sold to these airlines.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2809
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:59 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Cathay777300ER wrote:
It looks like TUI is diverting it's flights now. Smartwings is still flying including from Iceland to canarys. They have an hour to land before EASA ban. One Norwegian flight on the way home now. One FlyDubai flight on the way to Helsinki. Most likely won't be allowed into Finnish airspace so might end up in Saint Petersburg.


Interestingly, it is about to arrive in Finnish airspace right now and appears to prepare to land.

https://www.flightradar24.com/FDB1783/1fc7026d

I thought EISA has disallowed the MAXes throughout Europe, why not this plane?


It'll probably be forced to ferry home empty though. Kinda tough to reject a landing of an enroute aircraft close to its destination. That too would compromise safety.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8350
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What do you want Boeing to fix? There has been no cause released for either accident. Why is it Boeing's fault of it turns out it was due to faulty maintenance or crew error?


For starters, disable MCAS being in an infinite loop reactivating itself every few seconds. That might give human pilots a chance. Shouldn't be a major fix, correct?
All posts are just opinions.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm

FlyDubai FZ1783/FDB1783 just landed in Helsinki 21:59:30 local time (19:59:30 UTC)
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The FAA and various US / Canadian operators reluctancy to ground the fleet seems silly at this point.

If there's one more incident with the 737 MAX, no matter how minor or unrelated - it will compound the public's opinion of this type as an unsafe aircraft. Boeing's stocks will drop further, and the public will forever think of crashes whenever the MAX is brought up in conversation or news.

I believe Boeing is worried that grounding the type will be an "admission" of guilt. I think the opposite is true, it would show integrity to ground the type and then pour millions of dollars and thousands of man hours into finding out the cause of the issue. Boeing - show us that you put safety first.


What do you want Boeing to fix? There has been no cause released for either accident. Why is it Boeing's fault of it turns out it was due to faulty maintenance or crew error?


You're missing the point. Grounding an aircraft type is done when you don't know the reason for the crashes, or you have identified a specific problem with the whole fleet. It's done because it's better to be safe than sorry. In this case it's enough that the two crashes seem very similar at first glance. That indicates a problem. It's irrelevant if it's mechanical / software or pilot training.

If your first reaction to these calls for grounding the type is getting upset on behalf of a multi-billion $ industrial giant, you need to take a breath and rethink some things.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm

pugman211 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The reputation of the FAA is on the line. If they refuse to ground the B737-MAX, the agency will be accused by foreign nations of playing politics "with the lives of our citizens". It will be game-over.
Boeing will be screwed too. Unless they start to give their planes away, what (Asia, European) nation will buy their planes again, considering that abominable public relations behavior by Boeing?


Boeing won't be screwed, the MAX won't be screwed. It's an issue that needs to be fixed, and I'm sure it will be too.


A grounding might just save Boeing's hide here. Imagine for a second, a third incident happens in the coming weeks, the public will be so livid, that Boeing and the FAA will suffer serious reputational injury. But if they can take 2 weeks to get preliminary findings done that either rule out commonalities between Lion Air and Ethiopian or identify immediate fixes, it might at least bolster confidence. See the 787 grounding. That didn't kill Boeing.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:01 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:

Boeing will be presented the bill.


For what lol?
Did the investigations end already and Boeing was found deliberately manufacturing duds?


It doesn't matter at this point. Now that politics has become involved it no longer is a simple matter of contract law.


On top of that Trump has undermined the aircraft industry (Boeing) by stating that aircraft "...are too complex to fly". I already see China say at the next trade meeting:

China: Well dear Mr. Trump, since you say that YOUR aircraft are too complex to fly and since we have had these issues with the B737-MAX, we will advice (order) our national airlines to strike a deal with Airbus, UNLESS you give us a 99% discount.
Last edited by Dieuwer on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3846
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:02 pm

FCAFLYBOY wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
I hear EASA just pulled the plug and grounded the MAX.


Yep, even India’s DGCA now too. All eyes on AA/UAWN/AC/WS/WG now. That and the FAA and FlyDubai


Plus Air Mauritania.and SCAT.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:03 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
That would be a domino effect combined with social media pressure.
They are not stupid. Makes them look good.
The fact that people dismiss this so easy yet are writing Max off without ANY undeniable proof as to what caused the accident tells everything.


Who is writing MAX off?
The consensus at this point appears to be that it's safer to keep it on the ground until we know more about whether there is an underlying issue that needs to be addressed to avoid further loss of life.
That has nothing to do with writing MAX off once and for all.
Once we know if there are underlying issues (and we already know the FAA will make changes to MCAS mandatory because it deems them relevant to flight safety - so much for not having any facts, by the way) remedies can be developed and put in place, just like was the case with the 787.
The 787 stayed on the ground for three whole months and hasn't sustained any lasting damage to its reputation. Which arguably means grounding was the right decision, as a battery-related incident with loss of life after two instances that luckily ended well could well have been devastating for the type.
42
 
caljn
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:37 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:04 pm

keesje wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The FAA and various US / Canadian operators reluctancy to ground the fleet seems silly at this point.

If there's one more incident with the 737 MAX, no matter how minor or unrelated - it will compound the public's opinion of this type as an unsafe aircraft. Boeing's stocks will drop further, and the public will forever think of crashes whenever the MAX is brought up in conversation or news.

I believe Boeing is worried that grounding the type will be an "admission" of guilt. I think the opposite is true, it would show integrity to ground the type and then pour millions of dollars and thousands of man hours into finding out the cause of the issue. Boeing - show us that you put safety first.


National support for the FAA is shrinking. Former FAA bosses disagreeing with the approach so far.



Government, especially in the US, is only as good as those who run it. Currently in charge is the party of "government is the problem" and are forever bemoaning "regulations". (actually regulations should be called "protections".)
 
xwb777
Posts: 853
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:04 pm

Flydubai grounds its B737MAX8s and MAX9s.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/flydu ... max-9.html
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:06 pm

caljn wrote:
keesje wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
The FAA and various US / Canadian operators reluctancy to ground the fleet seems silly at this point.

If there's one more incident with the 737 MAX, no matter how minor or unrelated - it will compound the public's opinion of this type as an unsafe aircraft. Boeing's stocks will drop further, and the public will forever think of crashes whenever the MAX is brought up in conversation or news.

I believe Boeing is worried that grounding the type will be an "admission" of guilt. I think the opposite is true, it would show integrity to ground the type and then pour millions of dollars and thousands of man hours into finding out the cause of the issue. Boeing - show us that you put safety first.


National support for the FAA is shrinking. Former FAA bosses disagreeing with the approach so far.



Government, especially in the US, is only as good as those who run it. Currently in charge is the party of "government is the problem" and are forever bemoaning "regulations". (actually regulations should be called "protections".)


So why not ground the 737NG? Lion Air sure has crashed a bunch of them.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If it turns out to be negligence on the part of the crew or maintenance then Boeing should give some thought about whether to sell to exotic airlines. It doesn't seem to be worth the headache when they crash one. How many 737's has Lion Air crashed now? Maybe a stipulation that they will also not support used aircraft that have been sold to these airlines.


Although I see your point, neither Ethiopian Airlines or Lion Air are "exotic" airlines. Both of these airlines run their own flight academies. Other airlines pay them to train their pilots. Not selling them planes means more sales for Airbus. And not supporting their existing fleets just means more accidents.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:54 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:07 pm

FlyDubai was a major holdout. The noose tightens for the remaining carriers...
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
D L X wrote:
Guys.

No one is grounding the planes for trade politics. If you think they are, then in effect, you think that all the countries in the world other than Canada hate the US more than they like their own trade with other countries. They hate the US so much that they're going to hinder getting from Belgium to Italy by air.


That would be a domino effect combined with social media pressure.
They are not stupid. Makes them look good.
The fact that people dismiss this so easy yet are writing Max off without ANY undeniable proof as to what caused the accident tells everything.


Agreed. It is simply the trendy thing to do. No evidence needed. They just want to be "woke".

There is a trove of evidence. Evidence you don't like does not make it disappear.
JetBuddy wrote:
You're missing the point. Grounding an aircraft type is done when you don't know the reason for the crashes, or you have identified a specific problem with the whole fleet. It's done because it's better to be safe than sorry. In this case it's enough that the two crashes seem very similar at first glance. That indicates a problem. It's irrelevant if it's mechanical / software or pilot training.



^^^ THIS.

PixelPilot wrote:
The only fact here is that Lion Air deemed the plane as operational even after consecutive reports of something not working right.
Negligence on their part.


In other words, the Lion Air plane had an MCAS event on more than one flight, including one where it was WAS dispatched as airworthy. So, please, let's stop using that fact (with which I agree) that the LionAir flight should not have been dispatched. It was lucky the first time. It was unlucky the next.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
What do you want Boeing to fix? There has been no cause released for either accident. Why is it Boeing's fault of it turns out it was due to faulty maintenance or crew error?

Even the FAA, who hasn't grounded the MAX so far, wants Boeing to fix MCAS.
The way MCAS works has already been identified as a factor in the JT crash.
42
 
max999
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Benni228 wrote:
"Garneau indicated on Tuesday that Canada is now considering grounding the planes, if needed.
"I have directed my group of experts to be ready for all possibilities, including a decision to ground the MAX 8," Garneau told reporters."

Looks like Canada could be following suit at some point today...

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/b ... ax-8-bans-—-what-canadian-travellers-should-know/ar-BBUGJZp?ocid=spartanntp


Air Canada is probably fighting tooth and nail through its political backchannels to convince the Canadian government to keep the MAX flying. The MAX makes up 21% of Air Canada's active narrowbody fleet according to airfleets.net data. I think AC would be the most proportionally affected airline if their MAX fleet is grounded. It would very difficult and expensive to recover operations if 21% of their narrowbody fleet is down.

Total number of AC active narrowbodies: 113
Number of AC MAX: 24
Percent of narrowbody fleet: 21%
Last edited by max999 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If it turns out to be negligence on the part of the crew or maintenance then Boeing should give some thought about whether to sell to exotic airlines. It doesn't seem to be worth the headache when they crash one. How many 737's has Lion Air crashed now? Maybe a stipulation that they will also not support used aircraft that have been sold to these airlines.


Although I see your point, neither Ethiopian Airlines or Lion Air are "exotic" airlines. Both of these airlines run their own flight academies. Other airlines pay them to train their pilots. Not selling them planes means more sales for Airbus. And not supporting their existing fleets just means more accidents.


Neither of those carriers are comparable to someone like British Airways or United Airlines. Andy why are informing all of Lion Air's crashes? They are one of the most unsafe airlines in the world.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6987
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:10 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Lion air would crash any aircraft type.


True. They fly planes that should be on the ground getting fixed. Some of their pilots land on the water instead of the runway. They must be close to having crashed at least one of every type they have operated.

Ethiopian, on the other hand, is a good airline.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Globespotter
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:25 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:10 pm

The only reason they are not grounding them in the US and Canada is the cost to do so. At this point it's better to be safe than sorry, and confirm the causes/fixes.
It could be as simple as ensuring pilots are clearly aware to shut off the Trim Stab Switches and understand the cycling of the electric switches. Beyond that, why might the AOA sensors be delivering data that is not accurate? Personally the PFCS design of providing feedback but allowing pilots to push past the feedback would seem better than MCAS basically taking over unless shut down. I'm all for helpful assistance, but this is a new aircraft with a new system and it looks like there might be some bugs to iron out.
 
sadiqutp
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:10 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If it turns out to be negligence on the part of the crew or maintenance then Boeing should give some thought about whether to sell to exotic airlines. It doesn't seem to be worth the headache when they crash one. How many 737's has Lion Air crashed now? Maybe a stipulation that they will also not support used aircraft that have been sold to these airlines.

First, your post infuriated me.. With time they are becoming, what is the word I am looking for, amusing..

You see, I will never omit any possibility, including a pilot error or a maintenance error... I am not sure you have the same ability.. You know, the ability to consider all possibilities including a design issue!
 
D L X
Posts: 12676
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:11 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt.

You keep saying the same thing over and over again. This is a straw man. The people who are calling for a grounding and the countries that are actually doing such grounding are not doing so to hurt Boeing. They're doing so because they don't know why these planes are crashing. Whether YOU like it or not, grounding because you DON'T know why it's killing people is a reasonable decision to make.
 
RJWNL
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:11 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Cathay777300ER wrote:
It looks like TUI is diverting it's flights now. Smartwings is still flying including from Iceland to canarys. They have an hour to land before EASA ban. One Norwegian flight on the way home now. One FlyDubai flight on the way to Helsinki. Most likely won't be allowed into Finnish airspace so might end up in Saint Petersburg.


Interestingly, it is about to arrive in Finnish airspace right now and appears to prepare to land.

https://www.flightradar24.com/FDB1783/1fc7026d

I thought EISA has disallowed the MAXes throughout Europe, why not this plane?


It'll probably be forced to ferry home empty though. Kinda tough to reject a landing of an enroute aircraft close to its destination. That too would compromise safety.


That's exactly what several Tui flights en route to BRU and AMS had to do well before the ban came into effect but of course EU rules are only there to inconvenience European citizens and we shouldn't hinder the much loved Middle Eastern airlines.
 
konrad
Posts: 589
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:54 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:12 pm

Magog wrote:
FlyDubai was a major holdout. The noose tightens for the remaining carriers...


FlyDubai had nowhere to fly with Europe and India closed to the MAX's.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 pm

ytz wrote:
pugman211 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
The reputation of the FAA is on the line. If they refuse to ground the B737-MAX, the agency will be accused by foreign nations of playing politics "with the lives of our citizens". It will be game-over.
Boeing will be screwed too. Unless they start to give their planes away, what (Asia, European) nation will buy their planes again, considering that abominable public relations behavior by Boeing?


Boeing won't be screwed, the MAX won't be screwed. It's an issue that needs to be fixed, and I'm sure it will be too.


A grounding might just save Boeing's hide here. Imagine for a second, a third incident happens in the coming weeks, the public will be so livid, that Boeing and the FAA will suffer serious reputational injury. But if they can take 2 weeks to get preliminary findings done that either rule out commonalities between Lion Air and Ethiopian or identify immediate fixes, it might at least bolster confidence. See the 787 grounding. That didn't kill Boeing.


I agree. Not grounding the fleet at this point gives the impression of carelessness and corporate interest over safety. They're basically shooting themselves in the foot here. It would show integrity to ground the fleet. However Boeing seems to think this is an admission of guilt. It's really not.
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1765
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 pm

FWIW, I'm very surprised that so many seasoned posters here are surprised about the grounding. Doing things based on established knowledge about the root cause of accident is a fine way to approach things, but so is doing things based on the lack of knowledge in the face of accidents. Abundance of caution, as someone said.

And it does seem like Boeing and FAA have been left looking quite bad in the end. Here's what would have made more sense (with some hindsight):

Lead the world and say that while there's too little information at present time to determine what happened or if there's a problem in the plane, but out of caution and Boeing's committment to safety, ask the planes to be temporarily suspended from flying.

Use the time to thoroughly inspect them, collect possible information from other incidents in the worldwide fleet that did not lead to accidents, and to progress the JT and ET investigations. And progress the already in-progress fix.

After some number of days or weeks, declare that there's enough information and a fix that addresses at least some aspects of the problem. Say that the planes be ready to fly again.

They would have ended up looking experts, saviours, and ones coming up with solutions.

But today they look rather defensive (even as if they have something to hide) or have inappropriate influence with the local regulator. I'm putting this down to incompetent treatment of the situation, not that they'd have anything to hide. It is always better to confess and offer help, assistance, and take a relatively small financial hit, than to lose reputation or, gasp, perhaps another plane. If they lost another plane in North America for instance, think of the lawsuits... we'd be talking about possible significant financial damage to Boeing, or even breakup of the company at that point. Definitely fired management. So why this behaviour? It makes no logical sense...
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 pm

See the quotes from former NTSB, FAA and USAF officials in this article and then come back argue that the FAA shouldn't ground the MAX (at least the MAX 8):

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

All those who are slamming opinions on here as uninformed, I'd like you to come on record and call these officials morons too.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3846
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Flydubai grounds its B737MAX8s and MAX9s.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/flydu ... max-9.html


Why the MAX9? I thought the issue with MCAS was MAX8-specific? Or am I confusing something?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4457
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:13 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If it turns out to be negligence on the part of the crew or maintenance then Boeing should give some thought about whether to sell to exotic airlines. It doesn't seem to be worth the headache when they crash one. How many 737's has Lion Air crashed now? Maybe a stipulation that they will also not support used aircraft that have been sold to these airlines.


Although I see your point, neither Ethiopian Airlines or Lion Air are "exotic" airlines. Both of these airlines run their own flight academies. Other airlines pay them to train their pilots. Not selling them planes means more sales for Airbus. And not supporting their existing fleets just means more accidents.


Eeeehh, Lion Air is absolutely a dodgy, exotic outfit. But you may have had to work for them in order to realise that...
 
cdin844
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:14 pm

777Jet wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Lion air would crash any aircraft type.


True. They fly planes that should be on the ground getting fixed. Some of their pilots land on the water instead of the runway. They must be close to having crashed at least one of every type they have operated.


Even if Lion Air would have crashed flight 610 no matter what kind of aircraft it is, Boeing shouldn't be putting a product out there that exacerbates poor airmanship.
 
SkyGrunt
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:18 pm

Well said. I have never flown the MAX myself but I'm a little baffled as to why they would change to a switch only deactivation of trim from what they had?

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:20 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt..


Where do people come up with this crap?

By your logic, the former head of the NTSB, a former USAF Accident Investigator and fighter pilot, and former FAA safety inspector all want to hurt Boeing:

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

What is it that led to folks like you getting so emotional over an airplane model that all consideration of public safety goes out the video and everything becomes tribal scoring? And you actually professionals think like this daily?
Last edited by ytz on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5855
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:23 pm

Norway is closing it's airspace for the Boeing 737 Max


In Norwegian:

https://www.aftenposten.no/norge/i/J1Vp ... -har-snudd
 
rocketPower
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:48 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:24 pm

vfw614 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Flydubai grounds its B737MAX8s and MAX9s.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/flydu ... max-9.html


Why the MAX9? I thought the issue with MCAS was MAX8-specific? Or am I confusing something?


The MAX in general has this issue.
rocketPower

Life is about enjoying being uncomfortable. If you're complacent, something is wrong!
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:25 pm

ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt..


Where do people come up with this crap?

By your logic, the former head of the NTSB, a former USAF Accident Investigator and fighter pilot, and former FAA safety inspector all want to hurt Boeing:

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

What is it that head to folks like you getting so emotional over an airplane model that all consideration of public safety goes out the video and everything becomes tribal scoring? And you actually professionals think like this daily?


You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?

People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution. Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed? Good grief look at how many planes they have crashed. Why should they get to keep flying but not Max? Why don't these experts weigh in on Lion Air?
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:26 pm

caljn wrote:

Government, especially in the US, is only as good as those who run it. Currently in charge is the party of "government is the problem" and are forever bemoaning "regulations". (actually regulations should be called "protections".)


That, and the Trump administration has been very slow in filling politically-appointed posts throughout the government, including (as the article observed) at the FAA.
 
Bingo1
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:28 pm

max999 wrote:
Benni228 wrote:
"Garneau indicated on Tuesday that Canada is now considering grounding the planes, if needed.
"I have directed my group of experts to be ready for all possibilities, including a decision to ground the MAX 8," Garneau told reporters."

Looks like Canada could be following suit at some point today...

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/b ... ax-8-bans-—-what-canadian-travellers-should-know/ar-BBUGJZp?ocid=spartanntp


Air Canada is probably fighting tooth and nail through its political backchannels to convince the Canadian government to keep the MAX flying. The MAX makes up 21% of Air Canada's active narrowbody fleet according to airfleets.net data. I think AC would be the most proportionally affected airline if their MAX fleet is grounded. It would very difficult and expensive to recover operations if 21% of their narrowbody fleet is down.

Total number of AC active narrowbodies: 113
Number of AC MAX: 24
Percent of narrowbody fleet: 21%


And, as we're seeing with the SNC Lavalin affair, those back channels aren't necessarily back channels. They're freeways.

I would really feel for AC if the grounding extended to them. Sure, some of those Max' are sitting now because of the ban in the EU but it would affect ops tremendously.

Boeing can thank their lucky stars that the airplane manufacturing industry is a comfortable duoply right now. They could mess up really bad and only loose some market share instead of disappearing a la de Haviland in the Comet era.
Planecrzy
 
kruiseri
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:28 pm

FlyDubai return from HEL to DXB got cancelled. The plane is now at HEL.
 
lowfareair
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:29 pm

vfw614 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Flydubai grounds its B737MAX8s and MAX9s.
https://www.arabianaerospace.aero/flydu ... max-9.html


Why the MAX9? I thought the issue with MCAS was MAX8-specific? Or am I confusing something?


While I don't know about the MCAS system on the MAX 9, it still makes sense: if it isn't the MCAS system, it could be a common thread between the two aircraft that hasn't been uncovered yet.

There are a lot fewer MAX 9s than 8s (I believe about 28 to 352). IF there is a design flaw and IF it is common to both variants, there is only a ~14% chance that one or more of the accidents would have occurred with a MAX 9, and that is assuming complete randomness using current counts. Considering there were only 10 MAX 9s delivered when the first crash happened, the odds of having any accident be a MAX 9 is probably under 10%.

So statistically, it makes sense to ground the MAX 9 if they cannot definitively say that IF there is a flaw, it is limited to the MAX 8.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3846
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:30 pm

Smartwings flight TVS4160 SID-PRG taking a very unusual route now hugging the North African coast. Not sure if they are avoiding EU airspace given that a handful of TUI planes had to land in Italy.? If so, wWondering how far (and close to home) that will get them....
 
afgeneral
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:30 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt..


Where do people come up with this crap?

By your logic, the former head of the NTSB, a former USAF Accident Investigator and fighter pilot, and former FAA safety inspector all want to hurt Boeing:

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

What is it that head to folks like you getting so emotional over an airplane model that all consideration of public safety goes out the video and everything becomes tribal scoring? And you actually professionals think like this daily?


You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?

People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution. Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed? Good grief look at how many planes they have crashed. Why should they get to keep flying but not Max? Why don't these experts weigh in on Lion Air?


2 737 Max crashed in a short timeframe
if 2 Lion Air aircraft of different types had crashed in close succession they would have probably been grounded

see the logic?
 
Cathay777300ER
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm

RJWNL wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:

Interestingly, it is about to arrive in Finnish airspace right now and appears to prepare to land.

https://www.flightradar24.com/FDB1783/1fc7026d

I thought EISA has disallowed the MAXes throughout Europe, why not this plane?


It'll probably be forced to ferry home empty though. Kinda tough to reject a landing of an enroute aircraft close to its destination. That too would compromise safety.


That's exactly what several Tui flights en route to BRU and AMS had to do well before the ban came into effect but of course EU rules are only there to inconvenience European citizens and we shouldn't hinder the much loved Middle Eastern airlines.


Currently SmartWings a Czechia based Airline is still flying in European Airspace. Those being Greece Airspace on a flight from TFS-TLV and Portuguese airspace KEF-LPA. Further even after the ban a TUI flight continued to ARN and a Norwegian flight continued to OSL. This is no way them deciding to accept Fly Dubai versus others. I believe TUI likely choose to divert as they didn't want to risk anything.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2519
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:34 pm

afgeneral wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:

Where do people come up with this crap?

By your logic, the former head of the NTSB, a former USAF Accident Investigator and fighter pilot, and former FAA safety inspector all want to hurt Boeing:

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

What is it that head to folks like you getting so emotional over an airplane model that all consideration of public safety goes out the video and everything becomes tribal scoring? And you actually professionals think like this daily?


You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?

People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution. Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed? Good grief look at how many planes they have crashed. Why should they get to keep flying but not Max? Why don't these experts weigh in on Lion Air?


2 737 Max crashed in a short timeframe
if 2 Lion Air aircraft of different types had crashed in close succession they would have probably been grounded

see the logic?


This just shows how biased you are. Lion Air did crash two different aircraft rules within months of each other.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:34 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?


A precautionary grounding happens when you don't know what the problem is. It may not be Boeing's fault at all. But until we can rule out the similarity between the two crashes as concerns, they should be grounded. Now that they have the CVR and FDR, they should be able to do that in weeks.

I will add that you seem to have a rather simplistic worldview where somehow blame is apportioned 100% to one party. That is not how things work in real life. In all likelihood these crashes will be a combination of things, from some minor technical defect, to amplification by some human factors consideration to a training issues to even possibly a regulatory issue. Anybody who thinks an accident will leave a single party to blame shouldn't be involved in the operation of airplanes.

This is exactly why you ground the fleet. Take the facts to date. See what mitigations can be put in that will bolster confidence. Not just in the airplanes themselves. But in the operation of them.

TTailedTiger wrote:
People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution.


You don't seem to understand what that phrase means. Or should mean to aviation professionals.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed?


Perhaps they should. But that's up to the Indonesian government. I don't live in Indonesia so the supervision of Lion Air doesn't concern me. Any more than say Air Koryo's safety record concerns me. What concerns me is whether the FAA has exercised appropriate diligence in awarding a Type Cert to Boeing when there are some stark differences in handling without augmentation. I'd like to know if that's a factor in a crash. I'd like to know if the MAX is as safe as the NG and truly flies exactly the same way. Prima facie, doesn't seem that way at the moment.

Going back to my original question. Are you going to suggest the former head of the NTSB doesn't know what he's talking about? I'd like you to stop dodging and address the comments made by those professionals in that article.
Last edited by ytz on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Cathay777300ER
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:34 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
RJWNL wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

It'll probably be forced to ferry home empty though. Kinda tough to reject a landing of an enroute aircraft close to its destination. That too would compromise safety.


That's exactly what several Tui flights en route to BRU and AMS had to do well before the ban came into effect but of course EU rules are only there to inconvenience European citizens and we shouldn't hinder the much loved Middle Eastern airlines.


Currently SmartWings a Czechia based Airline is still flying in European Airspace. Those being Greece Airspace on a flight from TFS-TLV and Portuguese airspace KEF-LPA. Further even after the ban a TUI flight continued to ARN and a Norwegian flight continued to OSL. This is no way them deciding to accept Fly Dubai versus others. I believe TUI likely choose to divert as they didn't want to risk anything.


Further a SmartWings flight from Dubai is about to enter Bulgarian airspace on the way to Prague. Whether it will divert or not is unclear. Clearly exceptions have been made for certain airlines. We don't want another max to be stuck in Iran or somewhere it couldn't be serviced.
 
Starfuryt
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:58 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:35 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Smartwings flight TVS4160 SID-PRG taking a very unusual route now hugging the North African coast. Not sure if they are avoiding EU airspace given that a handful of TUI planes had to land in Italy.? If so, wWondering how far (and close to home) that will get them....


heading to Malta maybe?

TVS1201 looks to have made a turn towards IST
Last edited by Starfuryt on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos