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SurlyBonds
Posts: 407
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:21 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Rumour surfacing in Chinese Weibo claimed that an instructor, likely a MF instructor given his location, claimed that Boeing said on MAX's QRH that pilots should be able to land the plane safely with input from horizontal stabilizers alone; they found that is not the case on MAX simulators.

Michael


Sorry, what is an "MF instructor" and what is "QRH"?
Last edited by SurlyBonds on Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:21 pm

THS214 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

Although I see your point, neither Ethiopian Airlines or Lion Air are "exotic" airlines. Both of these airlines run their own flight academies. Other airlines pay them to train their pilots. Not selling them planes means more sales for Airbus. And not supporting their existing fleets just means more accidents.


Neither of those carriers are comparable to someone like British Airways or United Airlines. Andy why are informing all of Lion Air's crashes? They are one of the most unsafe airlines in the world.


Lion Air is not safe but their 737MAX accident had nothing to do with their overall safety record.


You have the final report? Or how about just an abstract?
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:21 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

From why I understand the trim cutout switches have remained in the same place since the 737ADV.


One would think a guy with an HF degree would understand that it's not just about whether the switches were moved but about how they are understood to function by the crew and what that crew's understanding is of the system. Let's not forget, that their FCOM didn't have any mention of MCAS until the Indonesia crash.

Honestly, I would really like to know where you went to school. Some quality HF grads apparently.


Do you honestly believe everyone with a human factors degree is going to come to the same conclusion?


On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:23 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Actually, up to this point we haven't proven two crashes with similar context


At this point most regulators feel that there has to be prove that both crashes do not have a similar context given what they know. They can't wait for the reports or a third crash. I agree with them
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:23 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
THS214 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Neither of those carriers are comparable to someone like British Airways or United Airlines. Andy why are informing all of Lion Air's crashes? They are one of the most unsafe airlines in the world.


Lion Air is not safe but their 737MAX accident had nothing to do with their overall safety record.


You have the final report? Or how about just an abstract?


Do you? You keep saying it's all the fault of the crews. I'd like to see your evidence to that effect.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:23 pm

ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:

One would think a guy with an HF degree would understand that it's not just about whether the switches were moved but about how they are understood to function by the crew and what that crew's understanding is of the system. Let's not forget, that their FCOM didn't have any mention of MCAS until the Indonesia crash.

Honestly, I would really like to know where you went to school. Some quality HF grads apparently.


Do you honestly believe everyone with a human factors degree is going to come to the same conclusion?


On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.



Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:26 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach.

Is this meant to imply that your approach has been neutral?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:28 pm

Magog wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:

On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.



Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.

Is this meant to imply that your approach has been neutral?


Yes, I have always said wait for the investigations to conclude before assigning blame.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:28 pm

Blotto wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Actually, up to this point we haven't proven two crashes with similar context


At this point most regulators feel that there has to be prove that both crashes do not have a similar context given what they know. They can't wait for the reports or a third crash. I agree with them


And that's how good flight safety culture is supposed to work. You're supposed to be cautious and rule out risks logically. Not keep flying, discounting recent experience and betting it won't be your bird next.
 
nikeherc
Posts: 670
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:30 pm

The industry and regulators seem to be about half and half divided into the two schools of thought. Historical it has been done both ways.
The Comet 1 grounding was precautionary before it was known what had happened.
The DC10 was not even grounded after serious deficiencies were found in the cargo door locking mechanism, leading to a second accident where over 300 people died.
The 787 grounding played differently, the precautionary grounding of the at that time biggest users, JAL and ANA with half of the delivered 787 in use, forced the decision of the FAA to ground the frames.[/quote]

The DC-10 fatal crashes not caused by pilot error, bombs, weather, engine failure or other non-airframe problems were caused by 1) the cargo door 2) unauthorized maintenance procedures 3) landing gear collapse. After the Turkish Air accident procedures were put in place to make sure that the cargo door was properly locked. Eve had the DC-10 been grounded until the cargo door and floor vents were modified, the other crashes would have still happened.

Be careful what you use to back up your arguments if you wish to maintain your credibility.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:32 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Do you honestly believe everyone with a human factors degree is going to come to the same conclusion?


On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.



Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.



Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.
 
Magog
Posts: 850
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:33 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Magog wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.

Is this meant to imply that your approach has been neutral?


Yes, I have always said wait for the investigations to conclude before assigning blame.

Most people supporting grounding aren’t assigning blame. That’s a straw man.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:34 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Do you honestly believe everyone with a human factors degree is going to come to the same conclusion?


On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.



Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.



Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.
 
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PW100
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:34 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
estorilm wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt.

That's absolutely not true, not even close. There are a number of variables and factors at play, but we've seen the MCAS input graphs from Lion Air. Regardless of something possibly being mis-handled by the flight crew, that is a FACT and it's a system unique to the MAX, as are its handling characteristics. I think everyone would like to take a closer look at this point, without tens of thousands of human guinea pigs flying around.


The only fact here is that Lion Air deemed the plane as operational even after consecutive reports of something not working right.
Negligence on their part. Everything else is secondary.



You got that totally mixed up. The maintenance thing is the secondary part . . .

Yes, there were consecutive reports/flights with apparent stability/MCAS issues. Yes, perhaps maintenance did a poor job (*). But matter of fact is that the accident could just as well have happened on the FIRST flight/occurrence of the issue, BEFORE maintenance had a chance to look at the problem. Therefore maintenance is by definition secondary issue (**).

Maintenance might have provided a good opportunity to catch the issue before leading to a crash, but what if it really was flight crew fault (***), and the accident crew was on the first occurrence flight, then maintenance would have never seen the issue. Again, maintenance was the secondary issue, just one the (many) layers in the Swiss cheese model (**).


* we don't even know that for a fact. For all we know, it could very well be that Lion Air maintenance exactly followed published maintenance procedure per the AMM (Aircraft Maintenance Manual); perhaps they were even in deep contact with Boeing rep. or Boeing engineering, and they also did not understand the magnitude of the issue.

** unless, far-fetched, maintenance did introduce - which is different to not finding/preventing - a flight safety issue, against or not following published AMM procedures, but at this stage we have no evidence of such.

*** Not claiming this was a flight crew issue; just presenting such option to demonstrate that maintenance cannot be considered the primary issue at hand here.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
THS214
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:34 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

That's his opinion and an article yesterday posted the opinion of another former NTSB director. He took a wait and see approach. He wasn't calling for hanging Boeing just yet.


This is his direct quote:

“There’s no question in my mind that if those two events had happened in our country, the aircraft would be grounded and there would be a far more intense look at this.”

I think we have a clue to what he would have done if this is on his watch.

And this isn't about "hanging Boeing". This is about ensuring the public's safety. And quite frankly, the FAA's actions here bother me far, far, far more than Boeing.

Have you ever actually operated or fixed an aircraft or is all your experience these forums? What's your professional background?


I have a PPL and have degrees in aeronautical science and human factors. You would do well to research the leading cause of all aircraft accidents. Hint, it's not the airplane.


Bold to say " leading cause of all aircraft accidents. Hint, it's not the airplane". Especially when we don't know the reason for this Ethiopian accident.

Remember that both "black boxes" have been found. Initial read outs have given something for authorities to ground the plane.
 
vfw614
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:36 pm

Not sure what Smartwings is up to. Their DXB-PRG MAX8 is circling near Istanbul at 34.000 ft and their SID-PRG MAX8 circling near Malta at 37.000ft, so apparently not about to land at those airports
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:36 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Rumour surfacing in Chinese Weibo claimed that an instructor, likely a MF instructor given his location, claimed that Boeing said on MAX's QRH that pilots should be able to land the plane safely with input from horizontal stabilizers alone; they found that is not the case on MAX simulators.

Michael


Sorry, what is an "MF instructor" and what is "QRH"?

An instructor working for Xiamen Airlines. I was trying to say the their inflight checklist - obviously used the wrong word!

That's what happens when I didn't have the coffee (yet!)

Michael
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:39 pm

The simplest thing for Boeing to do is install a faulty AOA sensor on a Max and put some
GoPro's in the flight deck. If their pilots can show that the pitch problem stops after hitting the cutout switches then that should put a lid on matters. If pilots aren't capable of that then they shouldn't be flying any aircraft.
 
jreuschl
Posts: 412
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:39 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Not sure what Smartwings is up to. Their DXB-PRG MAX8 is circling near Istanbul at 34.000 ft and their SID-PRG MAX8 circling near Malta at 37.000ft, so apparently not about to land at those airports


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/TVS1201

I was just about to ask the same thing.
 
IADCA
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:40 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Magog wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.

Is this meant to imply that your approach has been neutral?


Yes, I have always said wait for the investigations to conclude before assigning blame.


As in the other thread, you appear not to grasp the concept that other people have different risk tolerances and that "assigning blame" is not required to take safety-based actions. There is a difference between saying that these crashes are the fault of the 737 MAX series (blame) and grounding them until people are sure (or really, have any evidence at all) that the extremely obvious common factors that are individually rare and even more so collectively (brand-new airplanes of the same new-to-service type crashing in the same phase of flight after experiencing what, from the limited material available, appear to be similar difficulties and both of which killed everyone on board) are mere coincidences. You seem to think there is some equitable balancing test in which it needs to be more likely than not that the airplane is at fault in order to ground it. There isn't. 346 people have died.

Hypothetically, what would it take for you to accept a grounding? Would another takeoff-phase crash tomorrow that kills everybody on board a MAX do it? What about another one three months from now?

TTailedTiger wrote:
The simplest thing for Boeing to do is install a faulty AOA sensor on a Max and put some
GoPro's in the flight deck. If their pilots can show that the pitch problem stops after hitting the cutout switches then that should put a lid on matters. If pilots aren't capable of that then they shouldn't be flying any aircraft.


That assumes that the failure sequence is exactly the same in the two crashes. Which, given at least one of the dissimilarities between the crashes - the apparent altitude at which trouble began - isn't a safe assumption.
Last edited by IADCA on Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:40 pm

THS214 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:

This is his direct quote:

“There’s no question in my mind that if those two events had happened in our country, the aircraft would be grounded and there would be a far more intense look at this.”

I think we have a clue to what he would have done if this is on his watch.

And this isn't about "hanging Boeing". This is about ensuring the public's safety. And quite frankly, the FAA's actions here bother me far, far, far more than Boeing.

Have you ever actually operated or fixed an aircraft or is all your experience these forums? What's your professional background?


I have a PPL and have degrees in aeronautical science and human factors. You would do well to research the leading cause of all aircraft accidents. Hint, it's not the airplane.


Bold to say " leading cause of all aircraft accidents. Hint, it's not the airplane". Especially when we don't know the reason for this Ethiopian accident.

Remember that both "black boxes" have been found. Initial read outs have given something for authorities to ground the plane.


Are you disputing that pilot error is the leading cause of all aircraft crashes?
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1865
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:40 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach.

Of all the voices in these MAX threads your "Boeing first, safety second" is the loudest. And you are talking about a neutral approach?

B.t.w. said rule in aviation does not ask for a neutral approach. The call for safety is totally one-sided. It is Safety first. Everything else second.

Boeing emphasizing "safety first" nowadays sounds like a hollow phrase. Their action (software fix) comes after 300 people have died.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
oschkosch
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:41 pm

German DFS Flight Authority bans the Max for 3 months!


https://www.dfs.de/dfs_homepage/en/Press/Press releases/2019/12.03.2019.- German airspace closed for Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9/

12.03.2019.- DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH has published a corresponding NOTAM. This shows that all flights with the Boeing 737 Max 8 and Max 9 aircraft types are banned from German airspace. This ban applies from 12 March at 18.30 local time. It is valid for three months, i.e. until 12 June 2019 inclusive.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
brons2
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:41 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
That was the fault of Parker-Hannifan.


Revisionist history much?

Gee Boeing designed and built the thing with a single servo motor for the rudder. As opposed to pretty much every other commercial transport they've built, which had either multiple actuators on a single surface or a split surface with individual actuators for each surface. In either case a rudder hardover could be counteracted.

No, let's build this 737 with one, what could possibly go wrong?

If it wasn't an issue, why did they retrofit it with a 2nd motor? Hmm.

I mean, ok, the rudder hardover issues are not really relevant in a technical sense to the MAX crashes, other than from a standpoint of, Boeing continued to deflect for YEARS. That isn't going to cut it this time.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 570
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:41 pm

jreuschl wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Not sure what Smartwings is up to. Their DXB-PRG MAX8 is circling near Istanbul at 34.000 ft and their SID-PRG MAX8 circling near Malta at 37.000ft, so apparently not about to land at those airports


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/TVS1201

I was just about to ask the same thing.


The A/C were reportedly not allowed back into EU airspace as due to EASA’s AD.
 
jreuschl
Posts: 412
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:44 pm

asuflyer wrote:
jreuschl wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Not sure what Smartwings is up to. Their DXB-PRG MAX8 is circling near Istanbul at 34.000 ft and their SID-PRG MAX8 circling near Malta at 37.000ft, so apparently not about to land at those airports


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/TVS1201

I was just about to ask the same thing.


The A/C were reportedly not allowed back into EU airspace as due to EASA’s AD.


Yes but the flight is just circling around.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2714
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 pm

rheinwaldner wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach.

Of all the voices in these MAX threads your "Boeing first, safety second" is the loudest. And you are talking about a neutral approach?

B.t.w. said rule in aviation does not ask for a neutral approach. The call for safety is totally one-sided. It is Safety first. Everything else second.

Boeing emphasizing "safety first" nowadays sounds like a hollow phrase. Their action (software fix) comes after 300 people have died.


Your last sentence tells me that you believe Boeing is at fault. But none of us have any proof of what caused these accidents. Why were the previous two Lion Airncrews able to handle the same situation?
 
vfw614
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:46 pm

jreuschl wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Not sure what Smartwings is up to. Their DXB-PRG MAX8 is circling near Istanbul at 34.000 ft and their SID-PRG MAX8 circling near Malta at 37.000ft, so apparently not about to land at those airports


https://flightaware.com/live/flight/TVS1201

I was just about to ask the same thing.


Maybe negotiating for a waiver to be allowed to continue to PRG and while doing so keeping the aircraft near the alternate should it not come forward?
 
LHA320
Posts: 137
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:47 pm

ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:

On something this basic? Yes. If an HF expert doesn't think cockpit design (such as switch locations) should be looked at in a crash, as part of an investigation involving given system, than I'd question their competence as an HF expert.

I honestly hope you never end up in a flight safety role. I get the feeling you'd give your favourite OEM a pass on everything and simply blame everything on the crew.



Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.



Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.



Thank you! Finally some guys around who are really taking the "neutral approach" and stating qualified answers to some fanboys who are desperately searching for faults in cultures (which are not American) or blaming two brave pilots which lost their lifes in this tragic accident, without having a proof about their responsibilities.

To make it clear: I am not blaming the 737MAX either. We don't know what has happened and should not exclude any possible causes for this crash. The MAX is a fine aircraft which will be back in the air soon, maybe with a fix or maybe in its current layout, because it is fine the way it is. But if the grounding of these aircraft saves just one life, it is worth it. PR and pride can be restored, lost lifes can't. It is sad that some fanboys are seeing this as an attack against Boeing, which it is clearly not.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 pm

Does Boeing actually have a (functioning) PR department at all??
Last edited by Dieuwer on Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 pm

LHA320 wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.



Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.



Thank you! Finally some guys around who are really taking the "neutral approach" and stating qualified answers to some fanboys who are desperately searching for faults in cultures (which are not American) or blaming two brave pilots which lost their lifes in this tragic accident, without having a proof about their responsibilities.

To make it clear: I am not blaming the 737MAX either. We don't know what has happened and should not exclude any possible causes for this crash. The MAX is a fine aircraft which will be back in the air soon, maybe with a fix or maybe in its current layout, because it is fine the way it is. But if the grounding of these aircraft saves just one life, it is worth it. PR and pride can be restored, lost lifes can't. It is sad that some fanboys are seeing this as an attack against Boeing, which it is clearly not.


I didn't blame the pilots. All I said was that pilot error is the leading cause of all accidents. But if you are going to ground the airplane then you should also ground the two airlines until pilot error can be ruled out. Do you not think that is fair?
 
D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Magog wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:


Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach. You are taking the approach that there is definitely something wrong.

Is this meant to imply that your approach has been neutral?


Yes, I have always said wait for the investigations to conclude before assigning blame.

And many people have told you their viewpoint that grounding =/= blame.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2062
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:51 pm

jreuschl wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
jreuschl wrote:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/TVS1201

I was just about to ask the same thing.


The A/C were reportedly not allowed back into EU airspace as due to EASA’s AD.


Yes but the flight is just circling around.

Weird. If you have doubts about the airworthiness of your plane, you'd rather land quickly. Were they perhaps hoping to get permission to enter EU airspace nevertheless? Didn't Turkey also suspend the MAX's certificate? But one landing should be permitted in any case ...
 
afgeneral
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:43 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Does Boeing actually have a (functioning) PR department at all??


PR departments usually advise on the message and put into action the message which the top management team want to transmit

Contrary to popular belief, PR can't take matters into their own hands and save the day, they need a decision and a viewpoint from C-level to work with
 
Cathay777300ER
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:53 pm

mxaxai wrote:
jreuschl wrote:
asuflyer wrote:

The A/C were reportedly not allowed back into EU airspace as due to EASA’s AD.


Yes but the flight is just circling around.

Weird. If you have doubts about the airworthiness of your plane, you'd rather land quickly. Were they perhaps hoping to get permission to enter EU airspace nevertheless? Didn't Turkey also suspend the MAX's certificate? But one landing should be permitted in any case ...


Turkey did not, only Turkish Airlines.

It's super strange that the flight near Malta was allowed into Maltese airspace. Now looks like it's heading for Tunis.
 
Kilopond
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:55 pm

NOBODY knows for sure whether the MAXes are absolutely safe or totally dangerous or something in-between. Should they be operted? Well, there is the proverb "When in doubt, leave it out“.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2194
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:58 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
ytz wrote:


Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.



Thank you! Finally some guys around who are really taking the "neutral approach" and stating qualified answers to some fanboys who are desperately searching for faults in cultures (which are not American) or blaming two brave pilots which lost their lifes in this tragic accident, without having a proof about their responsibilities.

To make it clear: I am not blaming the 737MAX either. We don't know what has happened and should not exclude any possible causes for this crash. The MAX is a fine aircraft which will be back in the air soon, maybe with a fix or maybe in its current layout, because it is fine the way it is. But if the grounding of these aircraft saves just one life, it is worth it. PR and pride can be restored, lost lifes can't. It is sad that some fanboys are seeing this as an attack against Boeing, which it is clearly not.


I didn't blame the pilots. All I said was that pilot error is the leading cause of all accidents. But if you are going to ground the airplane then you should also ground the two airlines until pilot error can be ruled out. Do you not think that is fair?


See, this is just a ridiculous argument. Taking it out of the aviation context may help. Say two people using the same new type of circular saw manage to saw off their own hands. Others, including others at the same companies and a substantial handful of others, have operated the saw for a while and not managed to saw off their hands. You're apparently claiming that barring those two construction companies (one of which has a good reputation, the other not as good) from operating circular saws rather than having everyone go back to the old saws while we figure out how these dudes managed to chop their hands off with the brand-new saw type is at least an equally valid course.
Last edited by IADCA on Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2490
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:58 pm

afgeneral wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Does Boeing actually have a (functioning) PR department at all??


PR departments usually advise on the message and put into action the message which the top management team want to transmit

Contrary to popular belief, PR can't take matters into their own hands and save the day, they need a decision and a viewpoint from C-level to work with


Then it seems to me that the C-level are as deer in the headlights.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2809
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:03 pm

The 2 Smartwings planes are still circling around IST and TUN respectively (almost an hour by now).
Strange enough, Oman Air just took off in DME as WY182 to MCT. Is this a ferry flight?
 
LHA320
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
ytz wrote:


Umm. There is something wrong. Two of the same type crashed with similar context. The precautionary approach is to ground the type until you can (to quote your President) "figure out what the hell is going on".

It could really be a training issue. But that needs to be figured out. And while that is being investigated, it's not prudent to keep flying pax.

The only person not taking a "neutral approach" here are fanboys who argue that you don't ground a fleet regardless of whether you have safety concerns.



Thank you! Finally some guys around who are really taking the "neutral approach" and stating qualified answers to some fanboys who are desperately searching for faults in cultures (which are not American) or blaming two brave pilots which lost their lifes in this tragic accident, without having a proof about their responsibilities.

To make it clear: I am not blaming the 737MAX either. We don't know what has happened and should not exclude any possible causes for this crash. The MAX is a fine aircraft which will be back in the air soon, maybe with a fix or maybe in its current layout, because it is fine the way it is. But if the grounding of these aircraft saves just one life, it is worth it. PR and pride can be restored, lost lifes can't. It is sad that some fanboys are seeing this as an attack against Boeing, which it is clearly not.


I didn't blame the pilots. All I said was that pilot error is the leading cause of all accidents. But if you are going to ground the airplane then you should also ground the two airlines until pilot error can be ruled out. Do you not think that is fair?


No, that is total BS. Just compare the numbers:

Crashes in the last 6 month:

Lionair: 1
Ethiopian: 1
737MAX8: 2

If 2 MAX flying for Lionair would have crashed, your theory about grounding an airline would make sense. But grounding an airline after one crash would imply that you thought that 4U should have been grounded after 4U 9525, AA should have been grounded after AA 587 and DL should have been grounded after DL 191. Just to name some examples which didn't involve a Boeing aircraft to keep it "neutral".

The problem with our recent crashes is, that the aircraft type is the sole correlation between those accidents. We can't ground the crews anymore (my they rest in Peace), so it is better to make sure that the aircraft is not the cause for 250+ deaths before we continue to rely any more lifes and destinies on this aircraft. And the grounding was not forced because it is a Boeing or it is part of a trade war with the EU and China. I would demand the same procedures if the ill-fated aircraft were produced by Airbus, Embraer, COMAC, Sukhoi etc.
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
cdin844
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:21 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:08 pm

Chiming in to say that I used to do Crisis PR for Boeing (at an agency, they were our client) and they were one of the most difficult clients to work with - so many internal edits and approvals that nothing ever went the way we suggested it to.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Why were the previous two Lion Airncrews able to handle the same situation?

Now you're finally starting to ask questions that begin to head remotely into the right territory if you're actually interested in finding out what chain of events led to the loss of life of almost 200 people with JT alone, more than 300 people if you include ET.
Except I get the feeling that you're asking rhetorically and basically already have the answer in your mind, which is that the third crew just wasn't good enough.
However, one crash out of three flights with similar issues isn't a tolerable statistic even if the third crew was below average and having a bad day on top of that.

The underlying attitude reminds me of fanboyism/blinkers/silos in IT: "If you don't understand how this software/OS/documentation/Excel sheet works that us geniuses have set up for you, you're simply too stupid and shouldn't be in IT to begin with." Not a direct quote, but sort of a conglomerate of attitudes and quotes I've compiled over the years.
I've grown to be a fan of the exact opposite approach: Design stuff for an average user having a bad day. Because the more everything is moving towards 24/7 online, you really want your core business functions to always, always work. And we're talking "only" money at stake here, not lives.
42
 
vfw614
Posts: 3853
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:08 pm

Cathay777300ER wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
jreuschl wrote:

Yes but the flight is just circling around.

Weird. If you have doubts about the airworthiness of your plane, you'd rather land quickly. Were they perhaps hoping to get permission to enter EU airspace nevertheless? Didn't Turkey also suspend the MAX's certificate? But one landing should be permitted in any case ...


Turkey did not, only Turkish Airlines.

It's super strange that the flight near Malta was allowed into Maltese airspace. Now looks like it's heading for Tunis.


Must be quite surprising for pax who got on the plane at the end of a package tour to Cape Verde and will now apparently end up in Tunis - which is not exactly en-route.

The other one could now be heading towards Ankara.Surprised that it is not gong to IST from where it would be easier to get pax back to PRG.
Last edited by vfw614 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:08 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
afgeneral wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?

People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution. Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed? Good grief look at how many planes they have crashed. Why should they get to keep flying but not Max? Why don't these experts weigh in on Lion Air?


2 737 Max crashed in a short timeframe
if 2 Lion Air aircraft of different types had crashed in close succession they would have probably been grounded

see the logic?


This just shows how biased you are. Lion Air did crash two different aircraft rules within months of each other.


I don't think EASA, FAA, CAA, TCAA, Cayman Islands CAA have any authority over Lion Air operating license. Therefore they can not ground Lion Air (if that is what you suggested they should have done).
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
WIederling
Posts: 9465
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:10 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Does Boeing actually have a (functioning) PR department at all??


They do. It works extremely effective most of the time. Anything else and they would not have this kind of problem.
( they would have done their proper certification home work and everything would be nice and dandy.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:10 pm

LHA320 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
LHA320 wrote:


Thank you! Finally some guys around who are really taking the "neutral approach" and stating qualified answers to some fanboys who are desperately searching for faults in cultures (which are not American) or blaming two brave pilots which lost their lifes in this tragic accident, without having a proof about their responsibilities.

To make it clear: I am not blaming the 737MAX either. We don't know what has happened and should not exclude any possible causes for this crash. The MAX is a fine aircraft which will be back in the air soon, maybe with a fix or maybe in its current layout, because it is fine the way it is. But if the grounding of these aircraft saves just one life, it is worth it. PR and pride can be restored, lost lifes can't. It is sad that some fanboys are seeing this as an attack against Boeing, which it is clearly not.


I didn't blame the pilots. All I said was that pilot error is the leading cause of all accidents. But if you are going to ground the airplane then you should also ground the two airlines until pilot error can be ruled out. Do you not think that is fair?


No, that is total BS. Just compare the numbers:

Crashes in the last 6 month:

Lionair: 1
Ethiopian: 1
737MAX8: 2

If 2 MAX flying for Lionair would have crashed, your theory about grounding an airline would make sense. But grounding an airline after one crash would imply that you thought that 4U should have been grounded after 4U 9525, AA should have been grounded after AA 587 and DL should have been grounded after DL 191. Just to name some examples which didn't involve a Boeing aircraft to keep it "neutral".

The problem with our recent crashes is, that the aircraft type is the sole correlation between those accidents. We can't ground the crews anymore (my they rest in Peace), so it is better to make sure that the aircraft is not the cause for 250+ deaths before we continue to rely any more lifes and destinies on this aircraft. And the grounding was not forced because it is a Boeing or it is part of a trade war with the EU and China. I would demand the same procedures if the ill-fated aircraft were produced by Airbus, Embraer, COMAC, Sukhoi etc.


But Lion Air crashed two airplanes just a couple of months apart.
 
zippy
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Your last sentence tells me that you believe Boeing is at fault. But none of us have any proof of what caused these accidents. Why were the previous two Lion Airncrews able to handle the same situation?


Luck? Mechanical failure on flight 610? By virtue of allowing a computer to control a critical flight surface with no redundancy MCAS is a bad design, that much is known. Did the pilots make the situation worse? Maybe. What about British Airways 38? Was Rolls Royce less to blame for the fuel starvation flaw because the British Airways crew was able to land without injury?
 
Z88
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:33 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:16 pm

anfromme wrote:
The underlying attitude reminds me of fanboyism/blinkers/silos in IT: "If you don't understand how this software/OS/documentation/Excel sheet works that us geniuses have set up for you, you're simply too stupid and shouldn't be in IT to begin with." Not a direct quote, but sort of a conglomerate of attitudes and quotes I've compiled over the years.
I've grown to be a fan of the exact opposite approach: Design stuff for an average user having a bad day. Because the more everything is moving towards 24/7 online, you really want your core business functions to always, always work. And we're talking "only" money at stake here, not lives.


My current job places me at an intersection of engineering and IT. It is a constant battle to advocate for simplicity and elegance in solutions. Too often the inclination is to create a new widget that takes a brute force approach to solving the problem at hand, instead of taking time to see if the problem can be engineered out of the system instead. Unfortunately the first approach gives immediate gratification at low investment while the latter approach requires deferring a solution until considerable time and energy have been invested in understanding the system as a whole.

Organizations that consistently do the latter build up considerable technical debt. Everything works fine until the day it doesn't, at which point you are constrained by your legacy of expedient choices.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:58 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:16 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Of course it should be looked at. But you aren't taking a neutral approach.

Of all the voices in these MAX threads your "Boeing first, safety second" is the loudest. And you are talking about a neutral approach?

B.t.w. said rule in aviation does not ask for a neutral approach. The call for safety is totally one-sided. It is Safety first. Everything else second.

Boeing emphasizing "safety first" nowadays sounds like a hollow phrase. Their action (software fix) comes after 300 people have died.


Your last sentence tells me that you believe Boeing is at fault.

Wrong, I believe Boeing could be at fault. That is sufficient for far reaching actions, if safety is truly considered first priority.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
sadiqutp
Posts: 290
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:17 pm

anfromme wrote:
The underlying attitude reminds me of fanboyism/blinkers/silos in IT: "If you don't understand how this software/OS/documentation/Excel sheet works that us geniuses have set up for you, you're simply too stupid and shouldn't be in IT to begin with." Not a direct quote, but sort of a conglomerate of attitudes and quotes I've compiled over the years.
.......


Man, I relate to this in a spiritual level :rotfl:

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