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ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:47 am

NYCVIE wrote:
I think this is correct, but it definitely is sad that any of what is bolded would be a factor in the decision since that is more financial/politically motivated than safety minded. At the end of the day though, God forbid something else happens the FAA and TC will point right to Boeing who claims they have no doubts which is why ultimately I think it's in Boeing's best interest to ground the aircraft.


FAA and TC can't get away with that. If another incident happens, given the groundings, the probability that it would happen in North America is high. And a lot of the public will question their credibility as regulators. They had better pray nothing happens while they are flying and the rest of the world is grounded.
 
chance6
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:48 am

superbizzy73 wrote:
I can't believe I'm letting myself get caught in this nonsense (I'd fly on a MAX right now, no questions asked), but too much is too much. We now live in a word where a snap decision is usually made via some "expert" on social media, such as this website. Well, lets bring some other facts into the situation.

https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

If you seriously think the MAX needs to be grounded, then you also should quit driving (or taking any other mode of transportation, for that matter). Look, I'm not trying to say that the live lost were just statistics. But, when you start to take the blinders off and realize the scope of transportation as a whole, the two accidents don't compare to what happens on a daily, if not hourly, basis around the world. I mean, we're talking over 136 deaths an HOUR alone just in vehicle accidents. The problem with aircraft accidents (and, particularly airline accidents) is that there is a much larger loss of life total in one accident. Then, all of a sudden, people (and the media feeding that frenzy) are stating that aircraft should be grounded, they shouldn't be flying, and making nonsensical hashtags and such. If an A380 crashes tomorrow, and 400+ people die in said accident, shouldn't we also make called for Airbus to be accountable and have the A380 grounded? ("#GroundTheA380", right?) I mean, that's more deaths than the two MAX crashes. Or, what about all the deaths in vehicle accidents? Shouldn't we call to Ford and Tesla and General Motors and Honda (the 4 largest automobile manufacturers) and have them put a stop to manufacturing their "killing machines" (as I overheard a person on the street call the MAX)? Machines are not perfect. Us as humans are not perfect, either. Accidents will happen. People are going to die. It's a fact that doesn't need a reference or a link to a website. It's the truth.


There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. Ford had an issue with the Pinto, denied it at first. Audi had issues. If a single A380 with 4 engines went down, well I'd be surprised, but that's a single crash and the A380 has been in service now for about 13 years. C'mon.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:48 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
From what I've read it sounds like there is a known stall potentiality that has been corrected by new software and that requires a bit more pilot skill. So the situation here is different from the DC-10 or the 787 which had identifiable mechanical issues. Not sure grounding a non defective plane helps when the primary problem appears to the airlines and pilots flying them.


Because the problem is not the pilots per se, it's that the user interface is flawed. Theoretically the MCAS problem is correctable. But in the real world, is it correctable when a hodgepodge of things go wrong at 1,000 feet? I read that the ET CEO said that the captain was trained in MCAS correction procedures. If so, it still didn't work. Then there is the possibility that the aircraft may be pitching down more frequently than previously thought. The NASA reports say that a B737 MAX was pitching down when the autopilot was on, which contradicts previous reports that the problem only occurred when the autopilot was off.

#GroundTheMax
 
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PixelPilot
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:53 am

28 pages and people still talking about MCAS...
 
LeoNYC
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:54 am

Flight attendants urge carriers to ground Boeing 737 Max planes after crash
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/12/america ... crash.html

US flight attendant unions ask their carriers and US government to ground Boeing 737 Max planes until more is known about crash.
 
chicawgo
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:54 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
superbizzy73 wrote:
I can't believe I'm letting myself get caught in this nonsense (I'd fly on a MAX right now, no questions asked), but too much is too much. We now live in a word where a snap decision is usually made via some "expert" on social media, such as this website. Well, lets bring some other facts into the situation.

https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

If you seriously think the MAX needs to be grounded, then you also should quit driving (or taking any other mode of transportation, for that matter). Look, I'm not trying to say that the live lost were just statistics. But, when you start to take the blinders off and realize the scope of transportation as a whole, the two accidents don't compare to what happens on a daily, if not hourly, basis around the world. I mean, we're talking over 136 deaths an HOUR alone just in vehicle accidents. The problem with aircraft accidents (and, particularly airline accidents) is that there is a much larger loss of life total in one accident. Then, all of a sudden, people (and the media feeding that frenzy) are stating that aircraft should be grounded, they shouldn't be flying, and making nonsensical hashtags and such. If an A380 crashes tomorrow, and 400+ people die in said accident, shouldn't we also make called for Airbus to be accountable and have the A380 grounded? ("#GroundTheA380", right?) I mean, that's more deaths than the two MAX crashes. Or, what about all the deaths in vehicle accidents? Shouldn't we call to Ford and Tesla and General Motors and Honda (the 4 largest automobile manufacturers) and have them put a stop to manufacturing their "killing machines" (as I overheard a person on the street call the MAX)? Machines are not perfect. Us as humans are not perfect, either. Accidents will happen. People are going to die. It's a fact that doesn't need a reference or a link to a website. It's the truth.

Heavens above; another hoary old chestnut that was discussed in these threads up-thread. More than once.
There is a search box. Help yourself.

Although based on the random nature of what you wrote above, I do have some concerns that your analysis skills might need an upgrade.

Hint; there is a major difference between public transport, versus private cars where you have absolute control of safety


HAHAHAHA. absolute control of safety!! Are you aware how many safe driving people die per year by drunk drivers? By unsafe drivers? Get a grip!
 
LeoNYC
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:55 am

FAA under fire for allowing Boeing 737 Max jets to fly
https://komonews.com/news/local/faa-und ... ets-to-fly

The FAA has increasingly become cozy with airplane manufacturers and airlines when it should be more pro-active in safety, said Bill McGee, aviation adviser for Consumer Reports.

The magazine and website on Tuesday called on airlines and the FAA to ground the 737 Max planes until an investigation into the cause of the Ethiopian crash is completed to see if it's related to the Lion Air crash in October.

"They have not presented any evidence that the problems that we've seen with these two crashes are not problems that could potentially exist here in the U.S.," McGee said.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:59 am

bob75013 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
there is a major difference between public transport, versus private cars where you have absolute control of safety

You have absolute control when in a private car -- well maybe if you never start it.

What about the drunk who runs a red light and hits you?

Congratulations - you win the "Pedant of the week" award for highlighting a poor choice of specific wording as opposed to addressing the issue itself.

See if you can find fault with this rewording;
"There is a major difference between public transport, versus private cars where you have a considerably better degree of control of safety"
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
PDX88
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:00 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Magog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
What's unbelievable is such idiotic levels of assumption are taken even remotely seriously.

Repeat after me:
You... Don't... Yet... Know... What... Caused... This... Crash.

You can't even say what the primary contribution (human, mechanical, aeronatical, combination) was on the most *basic* level, yet.

But you want to ground a worldwide fleet?

Whoops.

Whoops what? Three reactionary authoritative governments grounding before looking?

....that's more like *yawn*

TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."


When you're done yawning we'll take that whoops when you're ready. Hopefully you learned some humility in the way you talk to people on this site.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:03 am

chicawgo wrote:
HAHAHAHA. absolute control of safety!! Are you aware how many safe driving people die per year by drunk drivers? By unsafe drivers? Get a grip!

Was an intelligent interpretation of my original wording beyond your capabilities?

Perhaps you can provide statistics for "how many safe driving people die per year by drunk drivers" ?
Your comment above suggests that is within your scope.
Dazzle me!
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:04 am

Virtual737 wrote:
I asked you this question early on in the thread but didn't see an answer so I'll ask again. At how many fatal incidents on this new type where we still don't have the full answers would it take for you to change your position? 3, 10, never?

Nothing's changed in any answer I have or will give, since the night of the crash:
Multiple (that means more than one, if we're being pedantic) crashes with correlative causal circumstances? Ground that sucker.
Crash happens, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5seconds later? Ridiculous.


RickNRoll wrote:
FAA is going to ground the 737Max as well if the patch is not in place by April. Boeing still has to get that approved in less than three weeks.

Nice
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:06 am

Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:11 am

UALWN wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."

That didn't age well either...

How do you figure?
Seems like a logical progression to me, considering the reports that have accompanied it over the last day. I joined the "ground" side the second the Brits (who'd initially refused to ground Concorde), saw fit to do so.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:11 am

PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Magog wrote:
Whoops.

Whoops what? Three reactionary authoritative governments grounding before looking?

....that's more like *yawn*

TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."


When you're done yawning we'll take that whoops when you're ready. Hopefully you learned some humility in the way you talk to people on this site.


Trolls like that quietly slink away. You know he won't be back to apologize. Heck, I'll bet there's a lot of folks posting today whose account would suddenly go silent if another one thundered in tomorrow.

At this point, those reports from pilots in the Dallas News articles are almost more disturbing than the crashes themselves. Autothrottles not responding at a 1000' on departure climb. Uncommanded pitch down when engaging autopilot. These reports are starting to sound a lot like the kind of flight control anomalies that would get an airliner lawn darting into the ocean or desert.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw
Last edited by ytz on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:14 am

LAX772LR wrote:
...
Crash happens, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5seconds later? Ridiculous.


Maybe those toilets are the real reason for universal pent up anger. 0.5 seconds later there is a trending hashtag.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:14 am

PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Magog wrote:
Whoops.

Whoops what? Three reactionary authoritative governments grounding before looking?

....that's more like *yawn*

TCCA or EASA doing so, BEFORE primary contribution to crash found? ***that*** would be a "whoops."


LAX, would you agree that your yawn is now a “whoops”?
Last edited by Magog on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:15 am

ytz wrote:
Trolls like that quietly slink away. You know he won't be back to apologize.

Or not.

And apologize for what? Saying it's stupid to scream "ground!" on THE night of a crash before (1) more evidence is obtained (now happened) and before (2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?



PDX88 wrote:
Hopefully you learned some humility in the way you talk to people on this site.

Yeah right. :lol: Screaming for grounding prior to ANY correlative evidence was still illogical as hell. No change in stance there.


Magog wrote:
LAX, would you agree that your yawn is now a “whoops”?

See Reply 1362.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:19 am

MartijnNL wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.

I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.

Maybe you should rethink that. I found this on page 30 of the crash thread.

A320FlyGuy wrote:
It is easy to forget just how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. When you look at the first and second generation jet transport aircraft, their safety records were downright abysmal:

Boeing 707:

1962:
- March 1 - American Airlines Flight 1
- June 3 - Air France 007
- June 22 - Air France 117
- November 27 - Varig 810

4 crashes in 8 months with a total of 435 fatalities

Boeing 727:

1965 (First Year of Service)

August 16 - United 389
November 8 - American 383
November 11 - United 227

3 crashes in 87 days with a total of 131 fatalities


You are comparing a modern model EIS in 2018 with models 55 years ago?
Many thing/ risk which was considered acceptable even 10~20 years ago no longer be the true in 2019.
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:19 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
Trolls like that quietly slink away. You know he won't be back to apologize.

Or not.

And apologize for what? Saying it's stupid to scream "ground!" on THE night of a crash before (1) more evidence is obtained (now happened) and before (2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?

You said it as recently as 17 hours ago. What facts are new in the past 17 hours?

The bottom line is that the overwhelming majority of the fleet has been grounded under circumstances that you acerbically said only idiots could think would happen. I’m proud to be an idiot, I guess.
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
And apologize for what? Saying it's stupid to scream "ground!" on THE night of a crash before (1) more evidence is obtained (now happened) and before (2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?


On the night of the crash? Sure.

The next day when we know the flight didn't climb substantially, pilots reported controllability issues and plowed it in with almost a similar profile to Lion Air? At that point, attacking those calling for a grounding is rather imprudent and offensive.

Also, I don't think the CAA or EASA or any other regulator knows substantially more than we do. They are making judgement calls on the similarity of the situations. Just like other regulators. I don't get why that would make them more or less credible than the Chinese.
 
PDX88
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:24 am

LAX772LR wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
Hopefully you learned some humility in the way you talk to people on this site.

Yeah right. :lol: Screaming for grounding prior to ANY correlative evidence was still illogical as hell. No change in stance there.


It's a shame the way you condone yourself on here, you seem knowledgeable too.

LAX772LR wrote:
I joined the "ground" side the second the Brits


There's still little physical correlative evidence however you've admitted to switching sides for grounding even though the grounding is still precautionary. You seem to have a problem admitting when you're wrong.
Last edited by PDX88 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MKIAZ
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:25 am

I'd be very curious if anyone is tracking MAX vs NG statistics to see if we can glean any info. I'd be curious to see if as a whole they are experiencing more delayed departures (trouble finding crew / trouble with pax) or if they have been avoiding high altitude airports (perhaps altitude of ADD gave them a reduced time to react).

Also be curious if they are being removed from shorter routes and put onto longer ones (less takeoff cycles = less chance for an issue to occur) - although may be difficult to see since they were typically on longer routes anyway.
Last edited by MKIAZ on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:28 am

Magog wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
ytz wrote:
Trolls like that quietly slink away. You know he won't be back to apologize.

Or not.

And apologize for what? Saying it's stupid to scream "ground!" on THE night of a crash before (1) more evidence is obtained (now happened) and before (2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?

You said it as recently as 17 hours ago. What facts are new in the past 17 hours?

Most obviously: when the CEO of the airline comes out and expressly says that there are "significant similarities" between the two crashes, after just explaining how the pilots struggled with the flight controls.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/business ... index.html



PDX88 wrote:
There's still little physical correlative evidence however you've admitted to switching sides for grounding even though the grounding is still precautionary. You seem to have a problem admitting when you're wrong.

As in keeping with the general motif of my commentary: you assume wayyy too much.

I've nothing vested in being unreasonably resistant to grounding this aircraft, just like I have no reason to not point out some of the wildly premature speculation that led some to be the opposite.

But when new info like the above comes out, HTF is it "wrong" to then change position; particularly when (again) the whole point was "wait for more info from objective actors?"
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:30 am

DL717 wrote:
AA191 had zero to do with the design of the aircraft. Zero.

Not accurate. #1 engine separation ruptured hydraulic which caused left wing slats to retract. Asymmetric slats caused stall of left wing and uncommanded roll into ground. Was rectified on the MD-11 with mechanical locks on extended slats.

Other DC-10 design shortcuts:
- Explosive underfloor decompression caused floor collapse. All three hydraulic lines were routed under the floor and were ruptured causing total loss of control. On competing planes hydraulic lines were routed in the ceiling.
- #2 engine uncontained failure could also rupture all three hydraulic systems with equal result.

After UA232 hydraulic fuses were installed to partially rectify those problems. Cabin floor was reinforced. But real failure tolerance in this respect wasn't achieved until the MD-11.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:35 am

prebennorholm wrote:
DL717 wrote:
AA191 had zero to do with the design of the aircraft. Zero.

Not accurate. #1 engine separation ruptured hydraulic which caused left wing slats to retract. Asymmetric slats caused stall of left wing and uncommanded roll into ground. Was rectified on the MD-11 with mechanical locks on extended slats.

Could subjectively add: (1) dual power source for stick-shaker, as the sole generator powering the captain's stick-shaker was in the torn engine, and (2) stick shakers no longer being an optional feature but a standard one.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:36 am

There are at least 4 US Senators who have called for grounding the 737Max fleet. One of them, Ted Cruz, is the chairman of the subcommittee that has oversight over aviation.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 139465002/
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:37 am

Ted Cruz, is the chairman of the subcommittee that has oversight over aviation.

That's scary. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
(2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?


Ok, I will take the bait and agree for a moment CAAC started this to discredit FAA. But why Australia, UK, and EASA jumped the ship.

Even India didn't holdout for too long and went against FAA, which is a real surprise for two reasons, #1 SpiceJet owner is very close friend of ruling party, his financial benefit gets priority over safety, #2 Just last month FAA didn't downgrade DGCA, even though it scored below average in 3 of 8 USOAP audit categories. They definitely owe one to FAA.

Why didn't FAA/BCA see the writing on the wall and get ahead of the game? What are they going to achieve by sticking to their guns? The program is not going to survive with just NA sales.

IMHO, they played right into China's hands. Going forward China will demand to audit every FAA certificate.
All posts are just opinions.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:42 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Thanks. I really appreciate it. All I have asked for is to wait for the results of the investigations.

Investigations take months to years. If another plane crashed with similar circumstances within that time period, would you keep saying the same thing?


You can't keep the Max grounded for years. Well, I guess you could but good luck with that. What if it was a bad maintenance procedure or bad training? Do you think that regulators should do a thorough investigation of Lion Air. Have a look at the number of planes they have destroyed.

I am not saying we should ground the airplane for years. Investigations take a long time to finish but if the two crashes are not linked we will know quite quickly. You keep obsessing over the Lion Air crash, but the problem isn't that two planes crashed within a short time. It is the CIRCUMSTANCES they crashed in, and the fact that this airplane type is so new. You cannot deny that two hull loss accidents within two years of introduction is unprecedented for a type
 
bigred10k
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:42 am

NYfree wrote:
Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.


I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.

Additional information on the FAA's decision making-process: https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-737- ... nd-safety/
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:44 am

Jouhou wrote:
You know, at least with all the controversy I can imagine the public will be kept well informed of the investigations progress and nothing will be withheld, and whether it was a mcas fault or not i'm sure Boeing is going all in on providing a fix now rather than seemingly twiddling their thumbs.

Only reason for people to get upset about the public backlash is if you're either invested in Boeing or work for Boeing.


I don't know whether Boeing is twiddling their thumbs right now but I work in crisis management and one of the best examples of success in handling an incident of this type that I can think of is Johnson & Johnson’s handling of the Tylenol scare of 1982. J&J’s approach is also an example of what I think Boeing SHOULD be doing right now, i.e. being perfectly upfront and honest with people and showing that safety comes before anything else.

The statement that Boeing issued earlier today and which was heavily criticized comes to mind as I write this. The industries are totally different of course but the management approach should be the same.

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professio ... Poisonings

“Stephen Greyser of Harvard Business School said about the management of the crisis:

‘It's been about as effective a rescue job as I've ever seen in marketing’

Johnson & Johnson seemed to show a perfect example of how businesses should professionally and ethically react to crises. They placed human lives above profit and focused on long term sustainability. Johnson & Johnson quickly recalled Tylenol bottles and notified the public sufficiently to prevent further poisonings. Seeming to not be influenced by cost benefit analysis, Johnson & Johnson made the largest recall ever in the drug industry. A recall of this size and Johnson & Johnson's willingness to publicize the crisis proves their commitment to prioritizing human lives over profits. Johnson & Johnson's thorough reaction to the crisis cost incredibly high amounts of short term profits, but their thorough response allowed consumer confidence to reemerge and sustain long term profitability.”
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:44 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
(2) rational-based regulators not from authoritarian governments see sufficient correlation to make a radical move (also now happened)? ....um, why?

Ok, I will take the bait and agree for a moment CAAC started this to discredit FAA. But why Australia, UK, and EASA jumped the ship.

For clarity's sake: you do realize that the "why" there is not asking why those governments made their move, do you not?

That was not the context of that post.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
kdeg00
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:48 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
A review by FAA has found that there is no basis to ground the 737 Max.

The FAA also stated that other civil aviation authorities have not provided data that would warrant action at this time.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/12/faa-adm ... craft.html


The way you wrote that is factually incorrect, even though the actual words are similar. The FAA has not found a basis to ground the MAX8. The way you wrote it posits that the FAA has proven the MAX8 safe, rather than the more accurate result that the FAA has nom current evidence proving it unsafe.
AS 75K, DL Gold, BA Silver
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:49 am

bigred10k wrote:
NYfree wrote:
Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.


I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.

Additional information on the FAA's decision making-process: https://www.wired.com/story/boeing-737- ... nd-safety/


I'll be on one this coming Friday. Looking forward to it. But you can always duck into the bathroom while your flight is boarding and approach the desk after it leaves and claim you got sick. They will rebook you on the next flights with seats available.
 
bob75013
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
there is a major difference between public transport, versus private cars where you have absolute control of safety

You have absolute control when in a private car -- well maybe if you never start it.

What about the drunk who runs a red light and hits you?

Congratulations - you win the "Pedant of the week" award for highlighting a poor choice of specific wording as opposed to addressing the issue itself.

See if you can find fault with this rewording;
"There is a major difference between public transport, versus private cars where you have a considerably better degree of control of safety"


see post #1348
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:50 am

Taking two 7M8 segments on Thursday and I have no hesitation about doing so. But of course, to each his/her own. I’m not going to fault someone for feeling anxious about jumping on a MAX, but the idea that WN, UA, AA, etc would fly an inherently dangerous airplane is ludicrous. If anything I might have an empty seat next to me for a change. The MAX is a nice ride.
Spread hope like fire.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:51 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
I asked you this question early on in the thread but didn't see an answer so I'll ask again. At how many fatal incidents on this new type where we still don't have the full answers would it take for you to change your position? 3, 10, never?

Nothing's changed in any answer I have or will give, since the night of the crash:
Multiple (that means more than one, if we're being pedantic) crashes with correlative causal circumstances? Ground that sucker.
Crash happens, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5seconds later? Ridiculous.



Then please answer the question because, at the moment, your replies suggest that even if 10 more MAXs went down in the next few weeks, before any conclusion was drawn from any of the investigations, you would still be proclaiming that grounding is totally unwarranted until more facts are known. Is that your position? If not, how many crashes of the MAX would it take for you to take the stance that grounding would be a good safety precaution until more is known? Many of us are at 2, you are clearly at more than 2.

Aesma wrote:
It reached 383kn at least (without being in a dive), at that speed you don't need flaps.


It's not just that you don't need them - 383kts is well above maximum flap extension speed. There would likely be permanent damage to the flaps themselves at that kind of speed and I'd be surprised if bits of them didn't start getting ripped off.

bob75013 wrote:
THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT


Do you have anything concrete to back that up? Yes people are demanding that the plane be grounded. Yes many airlines and authorities have done just that. They could quite conceivably be mutually exclusive.
 
CO953
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:51 am

mjoelnir wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
THS214 wrote:

I don't have the information neither do you. But those who make the decisions do. Thats why they grounded the plane.



I'll call that what it is: B.S.

THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT

AA 191 crashed and killed over 200 -- yet DC10s weren;t grounded until 16 days later after it became known what caused the crash. The difference: people weren't screaming GROUND IT..


AA 191 was the second crash because of the DC10 cargo doors. If the FAA at that time would have done its work, the AA 191 crash would most likely never have happened.


Time for people to start thinking thrice before posting, To post in such definitive terms about AA191, one of the notorious crashes in aviation history, and to not know why it crashed is just embarrassing for a website that used to have pretty good info. Come on, people. :thumbsdown:
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:52 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
DL717 wrote:
All this finger pointing and no one wants to ask a simple question. Why the hell was a guy with 200 hours sitting in the right seat of a 737?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/busi ... chool.html


I know the 200 number is being repeated time and again, and NYT promptly picked up the scent on their cadet program now.

Was the FO PF??

I guess we know nothing rule is not applicable for this lack of hours theory.


Thank you for asking this very important question, which I'd forgotten to include in my earlier post. The 200 hours is largely irrelevant if he didn't have hands on the aircraft, and somewhat irrelevant regardless.

superbizzy73 wrote:
I can't believe I'm letting myself get caught in this nonsense (I'd fly on a MAX right now, no questions asked), but too much is too much. We now live in a word where a snap decision is usually made via some "expert" on social media, such as this website. Well, lets bring some other facts into the situation.

https://www.asirt.org/safe-travel/road-safety-facts/

If you seriously think the MAX needs to be grounded, then you also should quit driving (or taking any other mode of transportation, for that matter). Look, I'm not trying to say that the live lost were just statistics. But, when you start to take the blinders off and realize the scope of transportation as a whole, the two accidents don't compare to what happens on a daily, if not hourly, basis around the world. I mean, we're talking over 136 deaths an HOUR alone just in vehicle accidents. The problem with aircraft accidents (and, particularly airline accidents) is that there is a much larger loss of life total in one accident. Then, all of a sudden, people (and the media feeding that frenzy) are stating that aircraft should be grounded, they shouldn't be flying, and making nonsensical hashtags and such. If an A380 crashes tomorrow, and 400+ people die in said accident, shouldn't we also make called for Airbus to be accountable and have the A380 grounded? ("#GroundTheA380", right?) I mean, that's more deaths than the two MAX crashes. Or, what about all the deaths in vehicle accidents? Shouldn't we call to Ford and Tesla and General Motors and Honda (the 4 largest automobile manufacturers) and have them put a stop to manufacturing their "killing machines" (as I overheard a person on the street call the MAX)? Machines are not perfect. Us as humans are not perfect, either. Accidents will happen. People are going to die. It's a fact that doesn't need a reference or a link to a website. It's the truth.


The obvious, gaping hole in your argument is this: the vast majority of motor vehicle collisions are caused by driver error alone, i.e. there is no mechanical issue with the vehicle and no interference from the environment. I'm talking inattention, poor decision-making, insufficient training and (re-)assessment, speeding, etc. By contrast, the chain of causation in an aircraft crash is infinitely more complex and usually involves multiple instances of human error - whether those errors are made by pilots, flight attendants, ramp crew, ATC, dispatch, flight planners, maintenance and engineering, aircraft/component design and manufacture, weather forecasting, and so on. Vehicle manufacturers (some, not all) are going to great lengths to improve the active and passive safety of the vehicles they put on the road, just like the aviation industry does.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:52 am

speedbird52 wrote:
You cannot deny that two hull loss accidents within two years of introduction is unprecedented for a type


Actually, one can. It's factually not unprecedented. It's happened multiple times. Ironically I think the A320 was the last type to have two bad accidents within two years of service (with much fewer in service at the time as well).
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:53 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
DL717 wrote:
All this finger pointing and no one wants to ask a simple question. Why the hell was a guy with 200 hours sitting in the right seat of a 737?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/busi ... chool.html


I know the 200 number is being repeated time and again, and NYT promptly picked up the scent on their cadet program now.

Was the FO PF??

I guess we know nothing rule is not applicable for this lack of hours theory.


A pilot with 200 hours can barely wipe his own ass. People acting like this isn’t an issue are completely ignorant. Doesn’t matter if he’s steering the damn thing. He’s not equipped to help when needed. This was a single pilot operation period.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
CO953
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:56 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
Do nothing Bob wrote:
The Turkish crash occurred when an incompletely secured cargo door at the rear of the plane burst open and broke off, causing an explosive decompression.

Gee, I didn't know that's what happened to AA191. Fascinating.


Obviously it was not the same thing. But perhaps taking it out of service would have led to a bottom-up review of the plane's design. I hardly think that jumping up and down and saying, "see, we waited 16 days to address known design flaws" is a convincing argument, and it is *especially* not convincing when there were earlier, entirely preventable crashes of the plane. The common denominator was that the DC-10 was rushed into production because of Douglas' "fly before they roll" philosophy vis-a-vis Lockheed. When commercial considerations outweigh safety, Bad Stuff Happens.

I am not absolving the FAA here. The FAA's mandate is to promote the aviation industry, whereas the NTSB's is to promote safety. They are behaving in accordance with their respective missions. Maybe that needs to change then next time the FAA is reauthorized.

#GroundTheMax


Gimme a break. As if a "bottom-up review" of the DC-10 design would have included stationing agents in hangars looking for forklifts installing engines.
This is getting ridiculous. :irked:
Last edited by CO953 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
PDX88
Posts: 423
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:56 am

LAX772LR wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
There's still little physical correlative evidence however you've admitted to switching sides for grounding even though the grounding is still precautionary. You seem to have a problem admitting when you're wrong.

As in keeping with the general motif of my commentary: you assume wayyy too much.

I've nothing vested in being unreasonably resistant to grounding this aircraft, just like I have no reason to not point out some of the wildly premature speculation that led some to be the opposite.

But when new info like the above comes out, HTF is it "wrong" to then change position; particularly when (again) the whole point was "wait for more info from objective actors?"


You (and many others) started off this thread by calling everyone idiots so you can't blame people for calling you out when many reliable regulators have agreed with the subject of this thread over the past 24 hours.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:59 am

The Senate has announced they will hold hearings on air safety and the MAX now after the ET crash.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/politics ... index.html
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:02 am

bigred10k wrote:
NYfree wrote:
Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.


I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.


Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
marktci
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:04 am

Sunwing's 4 are now grounded though for "commercial reasons" including airspace restrictions.

https://twitter.com/SunwingVacay/status ... 0776105985
 
babastud
Posts: 274
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:05 am

LAX772LR....Your out of control on this and flat out wrong. This plane needs to of been grounded before the Ethiopian crash. It's been known that this plane is a faulty design, it's flawed in it's engineering. Software patches and band aids are not the fix. The pilots know the deal, get with reality lives are at risk!
 
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DL717
Posts: 2237
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:05 am

777Jet wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
NYfree wrote:
Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.


I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.


Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)


I think you can still buy those insurance policies when you walk into the terminal. :rotfl: :white: :banghead: :rotfl:
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
CO953
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:06 am

DL717 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Do nothing Bob wrote:
The Turkish crash occurred when an incompletely secured cargo door at the rear of the plane burst open and broke off, causing an explosive decompression.

Gee, I didn't know that's what happened to AA191. Fascinating.


Obviously it was not the same thing. But perhaps taking it out of service would have led to a bottom-up review of the plane's design. I hardly think that jumping up and down and saying, "see, we waited 16 days to address known design flaws" is a convincing argument, and it is *especially* not convincing when there were earlier, entirely preventable crashes of the plane. The common denominator was that the DC-10 was rushed into production because of Douglas' "fly before they roll" philosophy vis-a-vis Lockheed. When commercial considerations outweigh safety, Bad Stuff Happens.

I am not absolving the FAA here. The FAA's mandate is to promote the aviation industry, whereas the NTSB's is to promote safety. They are behaving in accordance with their respective missions. Maybe that needs to change then next time the FAA is reauthorized.

#GroundTheMax


AA191 had zero to do with the design of the aircraft. Zero.


Not true. The maintenance error caused the loss of the engine, but the positioning of the hydraulic lines and also the slat design, so that losing #1 engine took out the system, was 100% a design flaw - the flaw that crashed the aircraft. Same as having all the hydraulic systems meet up right by #2 engine where an uncontained failure killed over 100 on UA232.

It's disturbing to me to see the amount of misinformation on that terrible accident being spewed on this thread. I've never seen the facts of AA191 so misconstrued, and I've been reading here over 12 years. GET IT RIGHT, OR DON'T CLICK "SUBMIT!!" :grumpy:
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:06 am

Virtual737 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
I asked you this question early on in the thread but didn't see an answer so I'll ask again. At how many fatal incidents on this new type where we still don't have the full answers would it take for you to change your position? 3, 10, never?

Nothing's changed in any answer I have or will give, since the night of the crash:
Multiple (that means more than one, if we're being pedantic) crashes with correlative causal circumstances? Ground that sucker.
Crash happens, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5seconds later? Ridiculous.

Then please answer the question

I already have.


Virtual737 wrote:
at the moment, your replies suggest that even if 10 more MAXs went down in the next few weeks, before any conclusion was drawn from any of the investigations

Actually, they don't; and the added emphasis in the quote points to the flaw in your perception of my stance.

I'm not asking for substantive conclusions, I'm asking for correlative circumstances. The two are not synonymous, seeing as there can be plenty of correlation without any conclusion. Even the utter absence of a conclusive cause can be said correlation, e.g. the 737 rudder crashes.

The only thing dealing with "conclusions" that I'd extol, is not jumping to them less than 2hrs after a crash, when no one (not regulators, not the airline, not amateurs) has even the most remote idea what actually happened.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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