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DL717
Posts: 2241
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:06 am

babastud wrote:
LAX772LR....Your out of control on this and flat out wrong. This plane needs to of been grounded before the Ethiopian crash. It's been known that this plane is a faulty design, it's flawed in it's engineering. Software patches and band aids are not the fix. The pilots know the deal, get with reality lives are at risk!


Just curious the basis for your statement.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:07 am

CO953 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

Obviously it was not the same thing. But perhaps taking it out of service would have led to a bottom-up review of the plane's design. I hardly think that jumping up and down and saying, "see, we waited 16 days to address known design flaws" is a convincing argument, and it is *especially* not convincing when there were earlier, entirely preventable crashes of the plane. The common denominator was that the DC-10 was rushed into production because of Douglas' "fly before they roll" philosophy vis-a-vis Lockheed. When commercial considerations outweigh safety, Bad Stuff Happens.

I am not absolving the FAA here. The FAA's mandate is to promote the aviation industry, whereas the NTSB's is to promote safety. They are behaving in accordance with their respective missions. Maybe that needs to change then next time the FAA is reauthorized.

#GroundTheMax


AA191 had zero to do with the design of the aircraft. Zero.


Not true. The maintenance error caused the loss of the engine, but the positioning of the hydraulic lines and also the slat design, so that losing #1 engine took out the system, was 100% a design flaw - the flaw that crashed the aircraft. Same as having all the hydraulic systems meet up right by #2 engine where an uncontained failure killed over 100 on UA232.

It's disturbing to me to see the amount of misinformation on that terrible accident being spewed on this thread. I've never seen the facts of AA191 so misconstrued, and I've been reading here over 12 years. GET IT RIGHT, OR DON'T CLICK "SUBMIT!!" :grumpy:


Seriously. Just stop.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/acc ... r7917.aspx

UA232 and AA191 aren’t even related.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:10 am

777Jet wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
NYfree wrote:
Flying on a Max 8 on the 27th i hope they ground them, i trust US pilot but this whole issue has made me anxious, i found this forum by googling about the Max 8 and i will prob have a few extra drinks before getting on that plane.


I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.


Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)


Would you put your family on a MAX 8 right now?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:10 am

SuperGee wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
You know, at least with all the controversy I can imagine the public will be kept well informed of the investigations progress and nothing will be withheld, and whether it was a mcas fault or not i'm sure Boeing is going all in on providing a fix now rather than seemingly twiddling their thumbs.

Only reason for people to get upset about the public backlash is if you're either invested in Boeing or work for Boeing.


I don't know whether Boeing is twiddling their thumbs right now but I work in crisis management and one of the best examples of success in handling an incident of this type that I can think of is Johnson & Johnson’s handling of the Tylenol scare of 1982. J&J’s approach is also an example of what I think Boeing SHOULD be doing right now, i.e. being perfectly upfront and honest with people and showing that safety comes before anything else.

The statement that Boeing issued earlier today and which was heavily criticized comes to mind as I write this. The industries are totally different of course but the management approach should be the same.

From Wikipedia:

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Professio ... Poisonings

“Stephen Greyser of Harvard Business School said about the management of the crisis:

‘It's been about as effective a rescue job as I've ever seen in marketing’

Johnson & Johnson seemed to show a perfect example of how businesses should professionally and ethically react to crises. They placed human lives above profit and focused on long term sustainability. Johnson & Johnson quickly recalled Tylenol bottles and notified the public sufficiently to prevent further poisonings. Seeming to not be influenced by cost benefit analysis, Johnson & Johnson made the largest recall ever in the drug industry. A recall of this size and Johnson & Johnson's willingness to publicize the crisis proves their commitment to prioritizing human lives over profits. Johnson & Johnson's thorough reaction to the crisis cost incredibly high amounts of short term profits, but their thorough response allowed consumer confidence to reemerge and sustain long term profitability.”


Yeah, absolutely. I think even Boeing's biggest defenders here should be able to admit they have fallen far short of quelling the public's concerns.
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kipfilet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:11 am

I think most people here have the FAA in higher consideration than what it deserves
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/boeing ... 1552409944
It is a severely underfunded agency of a US govt department that is strongly subject to regulatory capture
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:11 am

PDX88 wrote:
You (and many others) started off this thread by calling everyone idiots so you can't blame people for calling you out when many reliable regulators have agreed with the subject of this thread over the past 24 hours.

Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:12 am

LAX772LR wrote:
I already have.


Clearly I am blind or stupid, so to appease my obvious handicap, would you please restate your answer. I'll reword it for you if you like, but I'm pretty certain you know the question I am asking or you too suffer the same handicaps as myself, or are a politician.

How many crashes of the 737 MAX, without any facts known other than they crashed, would it take for you to change your "grounding the aircraft is idiocy" stance?
 
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RayChuang
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:12 am

I think the fact Boeing hasn't resolved the problem with a software upgrade tells me Boeing needs to stop all 737 MAX operations and have a plane subject to testing by NASA's Ames Research Center and Armstrong Flight Research Center to find out what could be really wrong. Is is possible there may be an aerodynamic defect that the flight control computers can't compensate for properly?

This whole thing is starting to remind me of the whirl-mode flutter problem that plagued the early Lockheed Electras and the early 727-100 crashes caused by pilots not understanding the deep stall problem that can affect T-tail airplanes.
 
PDX88
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:15 am

LAX772LR wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
You (and many others) started off this thread by calling everyone idiots so you can't blame people for calling you out when many reliable regulators have agreed with the subject of this thread over the past 24 hours.

Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.


What has changed exactly in the last 24 hours? Nothing factually from the crash, only the regulators being on the same page as us for a precautionary grounding.

Either way that's not my point. The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning and belittled the people who wanted to seriously discuss it. Now you seem on board but are upset at those who are rightfully upset at you. You don't seem to be changing so I'll just leave it be.
Last edited by PDX88 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:16 am

NYfree wrote:
777Jet wrote:
bigred10k wrote:

I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.


Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)


Would you put your family on a MAX 8 right now?


With what is known at this very moment, yes, as long as it's not operated by a carrier on my blacklist.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
barrey
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:20 am

Culled from a few facebook posts by a fellow by the name of Jeff Hefner (who I presume from the posts is likely either a WN or AA 737 captain) responding to Sen. Romney's call to ground the MAX8 :

[...]when my airline introduced the 737 Max aircraft we did what we call differences training to highlight just that, “differences” from our other models of 737’s. The MCAS system was discussed, so what it does was covered. The thing is for most of us, if the automation is doing something it shouldn’t or one doesn’t like.........we turn it off.

I’m not going to make suppositions at this point of the investigation ........ but will offer that U.S. carriers train somewhat differently than many foreign carriers, on the very same equipment and if the aircraft pitches up or down then first the autopilot ( if engaged ) will come off and then the electric trim switches. I would react the same way in my personal aircraft ( PA-32RT-300T ).

...we ALWAYS train for conditions where things don’t work, break, or work incorrectly......that’s one of the reasons why U.S. airlines have such a great safety record. Look, you don’t just ground an aircraft unless there is definitive proof of a design or manufacturing flaw which precludes safe operation. My airline introduced the Max, operates the most Max airframes and has amassed the highest number of Max hours flown.......in the world. We have never experienced this condition......ever. The raw data and the empirical evidence from those operations doesn’t support what amounts to media driven hysteria. Now two deadly accidents is tragic, however the evidence has not yet surfaced or been developed to support Romney’s assertion.......so it was uninformed, inappropriate and premature[...]

[...] I have dealt directly with Boeing on a 737 design issue, stood at the microphone and questioned their engineering representatives at an NTSB hearing.........Boeing hasn’t “ignored” anything regarding this issue and I have over 24,000 hours flying Boeing 737 aircraft, let alone the rest of the stuff I’ve flown, so I’m confident Boeing is on top of this.


Interesting stuff.

-Barrey
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:20 am

PDX88 wrote:
The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning

Huh? I LITERALLY have been saying: it's jumping the gun to not wait for more info and objective actors making a move. How on earth is that not "giving it a chance"?????????

You're making no sense.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
A320FlyGuy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:20 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.

Maybe you should rethink that. I found this on page 30 of the crash thread.

A320FlyGuy wrote:
It

Boeing 707:

1962:
- March 1 - American Airlines Flight 1
- June 3 - Air France 007
- June 22 - Air France 117
- November 27 - Varig 810

4 crashes in 8 months with a total of 435 fatalities

Boeing 727:

1965 (First Year of Service)

August 16 - United 389
November 8 - American 383
November 11 - United 227

3 crashes in 87 days with a total of 131 fatalities


You are comparing a modern model EIS in 2018 with models 55 years ago?
Many thing/ risk which was considered acceptable even 10~20 years ago no longer be the true in 2019.


If you had taken the time to read my post, you would have seen that I said:

It is easy to forget just how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. When you look at the first and second generation jet transport aircraft, their safety records were downright abysmal

My point was that 50 years ago, the 727 had 3 hull losses inside of 90 days and the fleet was never grounded - it was considered an acceptable loss. That type of thinking doesn’t hold water in 2019.
My other car is an A320-200
 
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Erebus
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
I asked you this question early on in the thread but didn't see an answer so I'll ask again. At how many fatal incidents on this new type where we still don't have the full answers would it take for you to change your position? 3, 10, never?

Crash happens, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5seconds later? Ridiculous.


3...10 or more MAXes crash, no idea why, and we're calling for grounding 0.5 seconds later? Ridiculous or Not Ridiculous?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:23 am

PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
You (and many others) started off this thread by calling everyone idiots so you can't blame people for calling you out when many reliable regulators have agreed with the subject of this thread over the past 24 hours.

Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.


That's not my point. The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning and belittled the people who wanted to seriously discuss it. Now you seem on board but are upset at those who are rightfully upset at you. You don't seem to be changing so I'll just leave it be.


Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.
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NYfree
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 am

777Jet wrote:
NYfree wrote:
777Jet wrote:

Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)


Would you put your family on a MAX 8 right now?


With what is known at this very moment, yes, as long as it's not operated by a carrier on my blacklist.


Is AA on your blacklist by any chance?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Why bother? It's still right there in Reply 1354. Scroll up.


"Multiple (that means more than one, if we're being pedantic) crashes with correlative causal circumstances? Ground that sucker." is what you wrote, and so you didn't answer the question.We are at two crashes. Which is more than one whether you're a pedant or not.

Let me reword the question one last time and see if you would like to continue either dodging the question, or answering a question different than the one asked.

How many MAX crashes, where the initial circumstances (in your opinion) are similar to either the Lion Air crash or the Ethiopian crash, would it take for you to change your "grounding is idiocy" stance?
 
CO953
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 am

DL717 wrote:
CO953 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

AA191 had zero to do with the design of the aircraft. Zero.


Not true. The maintenance error caused the loss of the engine, but the positioning of the hydraulic lines and also the slat design, so that losing #1 engine took out the system, was 100% a design flaw - the flaw that crashed the aircraft. Same as having all the hydraulic systems meet up right by #2 engine where an uncontained failure killed over 100 on UA232.

It's disturbing to me to see the amount of misinformation on that terrible accident being spewed on this thread. I've never seen the facts of AA191 so misconstrued, and I've been reading here over 12 years. GET IT RIGHT, OR DON'T CLICK "SUBMIT!!" :grumpy:


Seriously. Just stop.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/acc ... r7917.aspx


"uncommanded retraction of the left wing outboard leading edge slats and the loss of stall warning and slat disagreement indication systems"

No, you stop. I've read that report tip to tail more than once, and know that accident by heart.

You forgot to include this phrase, which followed your quoted sentence above: "Contributing to the cause of the accident were the vulnerability of the design of the pylon attach points to maintenance damage; the vulnerability of the design of the leading edge slat system to the damage which produced asymmetry;"

The DC-10 was designed so that a burst hydraulic hose near #1 engine pylon dumped the fluid and retracted the slats, and the slats had no locking mechanism and so the left slats retracted, and the loss of the engine took out the warning system which was wired only to the captain's instruments, which were conveniently powered only by engine #1, and so the crew had no idea that the slats were retracted, and then plane rolled over to the left. You stated very clearly that a design flaw had "zero" to do with AA191. At least two design flaws there. Slats were later redesigned to fix this design flaw. A maintenance flaw led to the engine separating, and then the "vulnerable" design - aka "flaws" cratered the aircraft.

That's the last I'll say on this.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 am

CO953 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Do nothing Bob wrote:
The Turkish crash occurred when an incompletely secured cargo door at the rear of the plane burst open and broke off, causing an explosive decompression.

Gee, I didn't know that's what happened to AA191. Fascinating.


Obviously it was not the same thing. But perhaps taking it out of service would have led to a bottom-up review of the plane's design. I hardly think that jumping up and down and saying, "see, we waited 16 days to address known design flaws" is a convincing argument, and it is *especially* not convincing when there were earlier, entirely preventable crashes of the plane. The common denominator was that the DC-10 was rushed into production because of Douglas' "fly before they roll" philosophy vis-a-vis Lockheed. When commercial considerations outweigh safety, Bad Stuff Happens.

I am not absolving the FAA here. The FAA's mandate is to promote the aviation industry, whereas the NTSB's is to promote safety. They are behaving in accordance with their respective missions. Maybe that needs to change then next time the FAA is reauthorized.

#GroundTheMax


Gimme a break. As if a "bottom-up review" of the DC-10 design would have included stationing agents in hangars looking for forklifts installing engines.
This is getting ridiculous. :irked:


They forgot to evaluate the potential fan disk separation of the at 37,000 feet while making a soft right turn. Totally had something to do with AA191’s maintenance SNAFU. Totally related. :roll:
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:29 am

CO953 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
CO953 wrote:

Not true. The maintenance error caused the loss of the engine, but the positioning of the hydraulic lines and also the slat design, so that losing #1 engine took out the system, was 100% a design flaw - the flaw that crashed the aircraft. Same as having all the hydraulic systems meet up right by #2 engine where an uncontained failure killed over 100 on UA232.

It's disturbing to me to see the amount of misinformation on that terrible accident being spewed on this thread. I've never seen the facts of AA191 so misconstrued, and I've been reading here over 12 years. GET IT RIGHT, OR DON'T CLICK "SUBMIT!!" :grumpy:


Seriously. Just stop.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/acc ... r7917.aspx


"uncommanded retraction of the left wing outboard leading edge slats and the loss of stall warning and slat disagreement indication systems"

No, you stop. I've read that report tip to tail more than once, and know that accident by heart.

You forgot to include this phrase, which followed your quoted sentence above: "Contributing to the cause of the accident were the vulnerability of the design of the pylon attach points to maintenance damage; the vulnerability of the design of the leading edge slat system to the damage which produced asymmetry;"

The DC-10 was designed so that a burst hydraulic hose near #1 engine pylon dumped the fluid and retracted the slats, and the slats had no locking mechanism and so the left slats retracted, and the loss of the engine took out the warning system which was wired only to the captain's instruments, which were conveniently powered only by engine #1, and so the crew had no idea that the slats were retracted, and then plane rolled over to the left. You stated very clearly that a design flaw had "zero" to do with AA191. At least two design flaws there. Slats were later redesigned to fix this design flaw. A maintenance flaw led to the engine separating, and then the "vulnerable" design - aka "flaws" cratered the aircraft.

That's the last I'll say on this.


That’s good. Because this thread has enough nonsense. You really need to brush up on your understanding of incident reports.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:30 am

NYfree wrote:
777Jet wrote:
NYfree wrote:

Would you put your family on a MAX 8 right now?


With what is known at this very moment, yes, as long as it's not operated by a carrier on my blacklist.


Is AA on your blacklist by any chance?


If you're flying on an AA max your real reason for cancelling or changing flights are the infamous mini-lavatories they're equipped with. I heard they're inhumanely tiny. I'm not sure if all max aircraft have them, but it's AA I've heard the complaints about.
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ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:32 am

SuperGee wrote:
The Senate has announced they will hold hearings on air safety and the MAX now after the ET crash.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/politics ... index.html


See. This is exactly why I think Boeing should have pulled the trigger on a precautionary grounding themselves. They are going to get savaged at that hearing.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:34 am

ytz wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
The Senate has announced they will hold hearings on air safety and the MAX now after the ET crash.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/politics ... index.html


See. This is exactly why I think Boeing should have pulled the trigger on a precautionary grounding themselves. They are going to get savaged at that hearing.


Yes. By a bunch of aviation experts in the Senate. Reminds me of that moron Markey and rollercoater safety when he was claiming major theme parks were the same as carnival rides in terms of safety.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
many321
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:36 am

Jouhou wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.


That's not my point. The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning and belittled the people who wanted to seriously discuss it. Now you seem on board but are upset at those who are rightfully upset at you. You don't seem to be changing so I'll just leave it be.


Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.


I agree. Just let him do his 'thing' and ignore him.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:37 am

DL717 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
bigred10k wrote:

I'm thinking the same thing. Our family of four is scheduled on an AA 737 Max 8 flight next week. Rather than waiting for proof of a design flaw as some have suggested, it sure looks like there is enough there to ground the planes as a precautionary measure.


Oh the horror!

Have you both prepared a will? Thought about changing flights?

Please do a trip report if you do end up flying on the Max ;)


I think you can still buy those insurance policies when you walk into the terminal. :rotfl: :white: :banghead: :rotfl:


Shameful. I hope you two don't end up saying such things to friends and family of the victims. You never know if they might be even reading these forums to see the kind of class acts you are.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:39 am

A320FlyGuy wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe you should rethink that. I found this on page 30 of the crash thread.



You are comparing a modern model EIS in 2018 with models 55 years ago?
Many thing/ risk which was considered acceptable even 10~20 years ago no longer be the true in 2019.


If you had taken the time to read my post, you would have seen that I said:

It is easy to forget just how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. When you look at the first and second generation jet transport aircraft, their safety records were downright abysmal

My point was that 50 years ago, the 727 had 3 hull losses inside of 90 days and the fleet was never grounded - it was considered an acceptable loss. That type of thinking doesn’t hold water in 2019.


We are looking at the possible reasons for the crash, not only how many days in between.
Basically all 3 727 crash you mentioned were due to pilot error.
In addition, the UA227 one is short of runway during landing. UA389 and AA383 were happening during bad weather and lack of visibility and flow into terrain.

What about the crash of 737MAX?
Bad weather is not a contributing factors for both crash, and both crashed shortly after takeoff and most importantly,
both have similar flight pattern prior to the crash. Both crash are too similar to warrant a grounding for the safety of the public
before Boeing can prove at lease ET one is not related to the same and known problem of the Lion air's crash.

I am sure even 3 or more 737MAX crash in a row within a very short period with very different background of the accidents,
the regulators would not demand a grounding of the model.
Last edited by hongkongflyer on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:40 am

Jouhou wrote:
Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.
Tell me about it!
I've still got the bruises two years later.
(Mind you, some people here might say the same about me..... :lol: )
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:46 am

NYfree wrote:
777Jet wrote:
NYfree wrote:

Would you put your family on a MAX 8 right now?


With what is known at this very moment, yes, as long as it's not operated by a carrier on my blacklist.


Is AA on your blacklist by any chance?


No. I'd fly on an AA Max - no problem. I'd also fly on an Ethiopian Max.

However... Lion Air has been on my blacklist for some time and I would not fly that carrier at all.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:50 am

Jouhou wrote:

Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.


"Mostly harmless" is how I think I'd categorise him. However I think you're right and it's time to stop feeding the troll.

I come to these forums to learn and have, as often as not, changed my opinions based on new information. Sometimes it takes questioning to glean that new information. There are a number of amazing contributors here who help with that learning, and some that don't. Even when they have a point, their methods of trying to make that point totally distract from and discredit what they might write.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:51 am

Veigar wrote:
Well, my post was deleted even though it had referenced very similar events that happened in the past while referencing this topic. Anyways, I do not think that the MAX should be grounded becuase the A320 suffered a similar fate early on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ai ... Flight_605 = Hull loss with fatalities

Look at 605's summary:

Summary Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot error, aircraft design flaws and automation


Indeed. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Boeing issued a safety bulletin, don’t recall that issue with the 320, but there may have been something similar. Why not followed if the two incidents are related?
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:52 am

Veigar wrote:
Well, my post was deleted even though it had referenced very similar events that happened in the past while referencing this topic. Anyways, I do not think that the MAX should be grounded becuase the A320 suffered a similar fate early on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ai ... Flight_605 = Hull loss with fatalities

Look at 605's summary:

Summary Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot error, aircraft design flaws and automation


I was trying to reply to your post when it was deleted.

The accidents you reference were ~30 years ago. I'd call it progress when we can take a more cautious approach in modern times rather than repeating history just because that's the way it has always been done.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
Well, my post was deleted even though it had referenced very similar events that happened in the past while referencing this topic. Anyways, I do not think that the MAX should be grounded becuase the A320 suffered a similar fate early on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ai ... Flight_605 = Hull loss with fatalities

Look at 605's summary:

Summary Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot error, aircraft design flaws and automation


I was trying to reply to your post when it was deleted.

The accidents you reference were ~30 years ago. I'd call it progress when we can take a more cautious approach in modern times rather than repeating history just because that's the way it has always been done.



Did people just not care as much as now when such things happened?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:55 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
Well, my post was deleted even though it had referenced very similar events that happened in the past while referencing this topic. Anyways, I do not think that the MAX should be grounded becuase the A320 suffered a similar fate early on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ai ... Flight_605 = Hull loss with fatalities

Look at 605's summary:

Summary Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot error, aircraft design flaws and automation


I was trying to reply to your post when it was deleted.

The accidents you reference were ~30 years ago. I'd call it progress when we can take a more cautious approach in modern times rather than repeating history just because that's the way it has always been done.

30 years ago developing countries didn’t have the VC to buy new build airplanes. It’s totally different.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:56 am

Veigar wrote:
Did people just not care as much as now when such things happened?


Don't put words in my mouth.

We evolve and adapt. Aircraft that were designed 30 or 40 years ago would likely not be certified today. That doesn't mean the manufacturers weren't trying to make a safe aircraft back then either.
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:57 am

Condolences to friends and family who lost loved ones in this crash.

Whether these aircraft should be grounded really comes down to your own tolerance for risk. Personally, looking at the fact that two 7M8s fell from the sky in eerily similar circumstances in just six months, does make me question the safety of the aircraft.

My understanding (and I'm happy to be corrected here) is that the preliminary report has pointed to a faulty AOA indicator (and airspeed indicator?) causing the MCAS to engage and likely be one of the largest reasons for the crash. This is not including the lack of training, and possible maintenance deviations. Experts and Boeing have suggested that this crash could have been preventable.

Even with the 'little airplane' flying experience I do have, reading about what the pilots had to endure during the final minutes of the Lion Air crash gives me shivers. While technically I assume that the pilots might have been able to recover the aircraft; having your aircraft put itself into a nose dive towards the water from a low altitude, erroneous data from your instruments, and an engaged stick shaker, all while you're foreseeing your own death in a matter of seconds, would probably have any pilot panicking - I know I would be. The vast majority of emergency situations a pilot will be facing in their career will give them ample time to react and respond according to the developed procedures. With the exception of incidents during takeoff or landing, which are usually heavily trained for, seldom does a pilot only have a matter of seconds to react to an emergency situation.

Another factor that has to be strongly considered is that we ultimately do not know the reason behind either crash. There could be a serious mechanical deficiency elsewhere in the aircraft that has yet to be found. At best we're speculating that MCAS is a large contributing factor behind one or both crashes. I'm sure there's been other accidents where the final report has contradicted elements of the preliminary findings of an air accident.

Putting this all together, by keeping these aircraft in the sky, we're entrusting ourselves to a couple of humans to react to a situation that they likely have little training to deal with. These same two humans might be overworked and fatigued, or just simply inexperienced. All while we do not know for certainty why two of the same type of aircraft in such a short amount of time fell out of the sky in very similar circumstances. That's a lot to think about when you or one of your loved ones is boarding one of these aircraft.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 am

[twoid]k[/twoid]
Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
Did people just not care as much as now when such things happened?


Don't put words in my mouth.

We evolve and adapt. Aircraft that were designed 30 or 40 years ago would likely not be certified today. That doesn't mean the manufacturers weren't trying to make a safe aircraft back then either.


I didn’t mean it thatyou said it, but it seems to be a common rebuttal that in general the longer back in time you go the less hysterical crashes get. By the way, this is the A320 we are talking about. It is indeed certified now.
 
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DL717
Posts: 2241
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:58 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
Well, my post was deleted even though it had referenced very similar events that happened in the past while referencing this topic. Anyways, I do not think that the MAX should be grounded becuase the A320 suffered a similar fate early on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Inter_Flight_148 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296 = Hull loss with fatalities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ai ... Flight_605 = Hull loss with fatalities

Look at 605's summary:

Summary Controlled flight into terrain due to pilot error, aircraft design flaws and automation


I was trying to reply to your post when it was deleted.

The accidents you reference were ~30 years ago. I'd call it progress when we can take a more cautious approach in modern times rather than repeating history just because that's the way it has always been done.


The problem with that assumption is that there was one incident and the manufacturer issued a safety bulletin that requires an airline to take action. If they don’t, then the airline has failed.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:01 am

Veigar wrote:

I didn’t mean it thatyou said it, but it seems to be a common rebuttal that in general the longer back in time you go the less hysterical crashes get. By the way, this is the A320 we are talking about. It is indeed certified now.


Indeed, but I'm not sure even the A320 (as it was then, without any of the improvements and fixes applied since) would be certified as a totally new type today.

Respect.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:02 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Agreed. There are no facts yet from either crash to put the blame on Boeing. People just want to see Boeing hurt..


Where do people come up with this crap?

By your logic, the former head of the NTSB, a former USAF Accident Investigator and fighter pilot, and former FAA safety inspector all want to hurt Boeing:

http://time.com/5549953/boeing-737-crashes-faa-experts/

What is it that head to folks like you getting so emotional over an airplane model that all consideration of public safety goes out the video and everything becomes tribal scoring? And you actually professionals think like this daily?


You still haven't told me why Boeing is at fault. What did Boeing do to cause these two crashes?

People keep saying they are grounded out of an abundance of caution. Well then shouldn't Lion Air be grounded out of an abundance of caution until their maintenance and training practices are reviewed? Good grief look at how many planes they have crashed. Why should they get to keep flying but not Max? Why don't these experts weigh in on Lion Air?


MCAS has been a known factor of Lion Air's crash. But at that time, we believe it was an isolated event, combined with the relatively poor records of Lion Air,
we still believe that 737MAX is safe enough even with the MCAS problem. In other words, the risk of flying is still acceptable.

But, now another crash with very similar background happened. For many things, first time is acceptable and when it happened twice, something may go wrong and investigation is needed.
What Boeing need to do is to at lease proving that ET crash is not caused by MCAS before they agree any 737MAX taking off again, rather then praying (together with FAA) that those 737MAX which is still flying will not fall out of the sky soon enough.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 am

kipfilet wrote:
I think most people here have the FAA in higher consideration than what it deserves
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/boeing ... 1552409944
It is a severely underfunded agency of a US govt department that is strongly subject to regulatory capture


The fact that the U.S. Senate has now called a hearing on air safety and the MAX shows that the situation...probably predictably...has quickly become politicized inside the USA. The effectiveness of the FAA as currently constituted appears to be the newest additional subject to an already hotly contested ongoing political debate within the US.
Last edited by SuperGee on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Veigar
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:04 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:

I didn’t mean it thatyou said it, but it seems to be a common rebuttal that in general the longer back in time you go the less hysterical crashes get. By the way, this is the A320 we are talking about. It is indeed certified now.


Indeed, but I'm not sure even the A320 (as it was then, without any of the improvements and fixes applied since) would be certified as a totally new type today.

Respect.


Exactly! It wasn’t grounded and fixes were applied and the airplane went on to be very successful. If the MAX does have an issue, improvements and fixes will be applied and it will be a near copy of this event.
 
acechip
Posts: 50
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:05 am

I am a bit curious. Now that its essentially North America vs Rest of the World in terms of regulation on this thing, how does it play out ? ROW is saying that we are not buying FAA/Boeing argument for the moment.
Suppose Boeing puts in a fix by April- will they immediately accept the FAA position (assuming that FAA will instantly approve of the fix) and then its BAU ?
If so, what prevented Boeing from taking this fix up proactively after Lion Air by advising airlines to review their Max operations, because the interim solutions were apparently not enough as per ROW (now realised). It essentially means that planes which were unworthy to fly, were being allowed to operate between Nov and now ? Would the regulators in ROW (esp EASA) demand a more rigorous testing to certify the changes ?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:07 am

Veigar wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Veigar wrote:

I didn’t mean it thatyou said it, but it seems to be a common rebuttal that in general the longer back in time you go the less hysterical crashes get. By the way, this is the A320 we are talking about. It is indeed certified now.


Indeed, but I'm not sure even the A320 (as it was then, without any of the improvements and fixes applied since) would be certified as a totally new type today.

Respect.


Exactly! It wasn’t grounded and fixes were applied and the airplane went on to be very successful. If the MAX does have an issue, improvements and fixes will be applied and it will be a near copy of this event.


We are going round in circles. I am saying that... because something happened this way 30 years ago does not mean it is the best way of handling it today. We may have differing opinions. Mine is just an opinion. In the grand scheme of things, my opinion means nothing to anyone but myself.
 
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PakledHostage
Posts: 3
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:10 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Other DC-10 design shortcuts:
- Explosive underfloor decompression caused floor collapse. [snip]


AD 75-15-05 R1 (the "floors and doors AD" that arose out of the Turkish Airlines crash) applied to McDonnell-Douglas Model DC-10 Series, Lockheed Model L-1011 Series, Boeing Model B-747 Series, and Airbus Industrie Model A-300 Series airplanes certificated in all categories... Just sayin'.
 
wstakl
Posts: 239
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:10 am

Wouldn't be surprised the US operators of the MAX have been slipped an envelope to not ground their fleet. Seems to be the way American big business and politics work......or just blame China which has already been done.
 
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CitizenJustin
Posts: 722
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:16 am

Jouhou wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.


That's not my point. The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning and belittled the people who wanted to seriously discuss it. Now you seem on board but are upset at those who are rightfully upset at you. You don't seem to be changing so I'll just leave it be.


Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.



Thank you. It’s about time someone said this.
 
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PakledHostage
Posts: 3
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:17 am

CO953 wrote:
Not true. The maintenance error caused the loss of the engine, but the positioning of the hydraulic lines and also the slat design, so that losing #1 engine took out the system, was 100% a design flaw - the flaw that crashed the aircraft.


They didn't just loose the engine. They lost the whole pylon, engine and all. GET IT RIGHT, OR DON'T CLICK "SUBMIT!!" :grumpy:
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:19 am

wstakl wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised the US operators of the MAX have been slipped an envelope to not ground their fleet. Seems to be the way American big business and politics work......or just blame China which has already been done.



Or do they genuinely believe their MAX fleet is perfectly safe to fly? Not everything has to be a conspiracy.
 
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hongkongflyer
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:23 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:19 am

ramprat320 wrote:
Given the social media hysteria based on speculation and fear I fail to understand why there are no calls for the worldwide 767 fleets to be grounded seeing as the cause of the Atlas Air accident is not yet known? It’s interesting how there is no patience in today’s “now” age (thanks to technology) ... no one is willing to wait for the facts and findings which will be revealed in due course. Calm and Logic is supplanted by pandemonium and speculation.


Does a second 767 crashed similarly before or after the Atlas Air?
 
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cougar15
Posts: 1443
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:22 am

Jouhou wrote:
PDX88 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Review what you just wrote, particularly those last 4 words.... then see if you can tell me the difference between now, and when this thread (and the actions you describe) first started.


That's not my point. The point was you gave the potential of this thread no chance from the beginning and belittled the people who wanted to seriously discuss it. Now you seem on board but are upset at those who are rightfully upset at you. You don't seem to be changing so I'll just leave it be.


Regardless of whether he's right or wrong he is one of the forum's most prominently stubborn members and tends to not be very tactful when he is right. We all know people like this IRL, they aren't bad people just painful to get in an argument with. Just felt it was time to come out and say that, I've seen way too many people get stuck in spats with him like this over time.


Can´t we all just ignore this, 20 posts of back and forth with a member who is well known to speak to us ´other peasants´ who dare to differ in opinion from his high throne as a matter of rule on this platform. It´s a free speech era , just ignore it and get back to the discussion at hand, this thread is bloated enough already.
some you lose, others you can´t win!

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