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flee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:10 am

vfw614 wrote:
Interesting that the US is now apparently pressuring Ethiopia to not let the British AAIB investigate the CVR etc., but hand them over to the US authorities....

My oh my, when will the folks at the FAA and Boeing begin to do some professional crisis management. Part of that certainly is not to create the image that you are desperate to get hold of possible evidence instead of letting a respected institution like the AAIB that is not in a blatantly obvious conflict of interest do the investigation...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ethiop ... 1552444534

The plot thickens!

At the end of the day, it is the Ethiopian authorities who are in charge. It will be a severe test of integrity.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:11 am

vfw614 wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Interesting that the US is now apparently pressuring Ethiopia to not let the British AAIB investigate the CVR etc., but hand them over to the US authorities....

My oh my, when will the folks at the FAA and Boeing begin to do some professional crisis management. Part of that certainly is not to create the image that you are desperate to get hold of possible evidence instead of letting a respected institution like the AAIB that is not in a blatantly obvious conflict of interest do the investigation...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ethiop ... 1552444534


I can't read the article. Does it say that the FAA and Boeing are pressuring Ethiopia?


Some quotes:

After Ethiopian authorities indicated they wanted to send the flight-data and cockpit-voice recorders overseas and preferred the U.K.’s Air Accidents Investigation Branch as an objective outsider, these officials said, U.S. officials privately made a push to have them sent instead to the National Transportation Safety Board’s facilities.

U.S. air-safety investigators on Tuesday engaged in intense behind-the-scenes discussions with their Ethiopian counterparts regarding where the black-box recorders found amid the wreckage of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 will be downloaded, according to people familiar with the matter.


Fo the sake of clarification, my reference to Boeing and FAA was about whether they sould support the Ethiopians decision to let the AAIB handle the investigation instead of the NTSB, given the widespread consternation outside and inside the US how Boeing and the FA have been dealing with the matter so far.


Ok, I guess I thought you were implying that it was Boeing and the FAA interfering but I couldn't see the article to get context. Regardless, I guess I'd be shocked if Boeing and/or the FAA encouraged the investigation to be done in the UK.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:17 am

DL717 wrote:
A pilot with 200 hours can barely wipe his own ass. People acting like this isn’t an issue are completely ignorant. Doesn’t matter if he’s steering the damn thing. He’s not equipped to help when needed. This was a single pilot operation period.


I hope you didn't fly in the US before 2013 when the FAA minimum requirement was just 250 hours? It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Colgan crash to increase it 1,500 hours. IIRC, both Colgan pilots had over 1,500 hours anyway.

777Jet wrote:
Hopefully they are not reading here to find out the cause, which, apparently, the a.net armchair experts have apparently determined to justify a grounding


It doesn't matter what a.net posters think, the World's aviation authorities clearly think there's reason enough the ground the MAX. Might be something to do with over 300 bodies.

Bobloblaw wrote:
My understanding is the NG has something similar to MCAS but it isn’t called that.


It doesn't. You've already been corrected on this here or in another thread.
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yoni
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:21 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
Interesting that the US is now apparently pressuring Ethiopia to not let the British AAIB investigate the CVR etc., but hand them over to the US authorities....

My oh my, when will the folks at the FAA and Boeing begin to do some professional crisis management. Part of that certainly is not to create the image that you are desperate to get hold of possible evidence instead of letting a respected institution like the AAIB that is not in a blatantly obvious conflict of interest do the investigation...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ethiop ... 1552444534

Using this logic, no analysis of crashes should ever be done in the USA. Some maight argue that the Europeans aren’t exactly free of any conflicts of interest given airbus


Conflict of interest is a reality. This being said, Ethiopia is a sovereign country and as such is free to choose whoever they want. It seems suspect that the US is pressuring Ethiopia. Do they have something to hide?
 
WIederling
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:22 am

bob75013 wrote:
THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT

Nobody screamed.
It has barely made the general news here in Germany. In Today's paper there is a 3 sentence blob on the last page.
Not much more reporting overall since Monday.
2..3 days of contemplation. that does look quite the "cortical" decission.
Murphy is an optimist
 
devron
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:23 am

So most of the 737 max fleet is grounded. Does anyone have any realistic estimate till when measures can be imlimented so the max fleets can fly agian?

I seeing my south pacific flights, once in a live-time trip falling appart as fiji also stoped fly the max.
 
Noshow
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:27 am

Question concerning flying the MAX without MCAS:
So assuming the pilots siwtch off the cutout switches and fly without electric trim (so without MCAS) the aircraft's flying behavior afterwards must still be certifyable. Why not just get rid of MCAS entirely then?
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:28 am

devron wrote:
So most of the 737 max fleet is grounded. Does anyone have any realistic estimate till when measures can be imlimented so the max fleets can fly agian?

I seeing my south pacific flights, once in a live-time trip falling appart as fiji also stoped fly the max.


I'm not sure anyone can answer that yet. Even if the MCAS fix is released "Boeing expects the US Federal Aviation Administration to issue an Airworthiness Directive "no later than" April to mandate the updated software." as per https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... are-2019-3 then is that enough for all concerned to stop the grounding if the ET crash investigation has not found a direct correlation to MCAS?

If the ET crash is attributed to something other than a design fault, or to a fault that the fix would address, then I would think the MCAS fix alone would be enough.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:31 am

Noshow wrote:
Question concerning flying the MAX without MCAS:
So assuming the pilots siwtch off the cutout switches and fly without electric trim (so without MCAS) the aircraft's flying behavior afterwards must still be certifyable. Why not just get rid of MCAS entirely then?


Because MCAS was required so that the flight characteristics were close enough that the same type certification could be used on the MAX as the NG (and probably the Classic). Without MCAS, the MAX would probably need it's own rating, meaning significant more cost to the operators. If this was done before launch, many of the existing MAX sales might well have gone to the A32x family.
 
vfw614
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:36 am

devron wrote:
So most of the 737 max fleet is grounded. Does anyone have any realistic estimate till when measures can be imlimented so the max fleets can fly agian?

I seeing my south pacific flights, once in a live-time trip falling appart as fiji also stoped fly the max.


Fiji Airways / Link still has a dozen or so airworthy aircraft, they will not stop flying. I am pretty sure you will be reaccommodated, but maybe not without inconveniencing you to some extent. Better safe than sorry.
 
Noshow
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:36 am

MCAS was required so that the flight characteristics were close enough that the same type certification could be used on the MAX as the NG (and probably the Classic). Without MCAS, the MAX would probably need it's own rating, meaning significant more cost to the operators. If this was done before launch, many of the existing MAX sales might well have gone to the A32x family.


But to the MCAS system belongs a degraded status to fly the plane without that system being active (like when the cutout switches are pulled). The MAX therefore was certified to fly without a working MCAS. This is why I ask myself, if the aircraft was certified to fly with manual trim only and MCAS deactivated why does it still need MCAS as a formal requirement at all?
 
User001
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:38 am

5 TUI B737M are grounded at Manchester, UK.

They are being stored on a new piece of apron that was not due to open until next month:

https://twitter.com/airportnewsman/stat ... 09664?s=21
Last edited by User001 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:40 am

Noshow wrote:
But to the MCAS system belongs a status to fly the plane without that system being active (like when the cutout switches are pulled). The MAX therefore was certified to fly without a working MCAS. This is why I ask myself, if the aircraft was certified to fly with manual trim only and MCAS deactivated why does it still need MCAS at all?


The MAX wasn't certified to be operated without MCAS for passenger ops. If, however, during a flight, MCAS is believed to be malfunctioning, Boeing have stated that pilots should use the existing stab trim runaway procedure to disable MCAS. This does not mean that a flight could start with MCAS inoperative.
 
SwissCanuck
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:42 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Because MCAS was required so that the flight characteristics were close enough that the same type certification could be used on the MAX as the NG (and probably the Classic). Without MCAS, the MAX would probably need it's own rating, meaning significant more cost to the operators. If this was done before launch, many of the existing MAX sales might well have gone to the A32x family.


I keep seeing this kind of comment, and either I'm incorrect or something is being left out.

Its my understanding that the MAX could never GET its own rating. Doing so would trigger re-certifying the whole plane - every part - and some aren't certifiable today. I think the most commonly used example is the doors - they do not meet todays standard but are grandfathered. So the problem is a lot bigger than pilots needing different ratings and paperwork.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:43 am

vfw614 wrote:
devron wrote:
So most of the 737 max fleet is grounded. Does anyone have any realistic estimate till when measures can be imlimented so the max fleets can fly agian?

I seeing my south pacific flights, once in a live-time trip falling appart as fiji also stoped fly the max.


Fiji Airways / Link still has a dozen or so airworthy aircraft, they will not stop flying. I am pretty sure you will be reaccommodated, but maybe not without inconveniencing you to some extent. Better safe than sorry.


True. Enjoy the Twin Otter.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
art
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:44 am

Zaf wrote:
The MAX keeps diving and pilots can't do anything about it.


If this has happened twice, the aircraft should not be flying. I believe that the unexpected changes in altitude of both aircraft involved are a strong indication that the aircraft can become uncontrollable due to malfunction of the MCAS system. Aircraft that - even on extremely rare occasions - become uncontrollable should not be flying.

Is there definite proof that the MCAS system failed? Perhaps not but I don't think that matters. Until that is ruled out or if confirmed, a fix be engineered and that fix be implemented, further use of the 737 MAX is too risky IMO.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:46 am

art wrote:
Zaf wrote:
The MAX keeps diving and pilots can't do anything about it.


If this has happened twice, the aircraft should not be flying. I believe that the unexpected changes in altitude of both aircraft involved are a strong indication that the aircraft can become uncontrollable due to malfunction of the MCAS system. Aircraft that - even on extremely rare occasions - become uncontrollable should not be flying.

Is there definite proof that the MCAS system failed? Perhaps not but I don't think that matters. Until that is ruled out or if confirmed, a fix be engineered and that fix be implemented, further use of the 737 MAX is too risky IMO.


To be clear, does the aircraft have to impact the ground for it to count?
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:47 am

SwissCanuck wrote:
I keep seeing this kind of comment, and either I'm incorrect or something is being left out.

Its my understanding that the MAX could never GET its own rating. Doing so would trigger re-certifying the whole plane - every part - and some aren't certifiable today. I think the most commonly used example is the doors - they do not meet todays standard but are grandfathered. So the problem is a lot bigger than pilots needing different ratings and paperwork.


You might very well be right. I'm not sure whether there is any grandfathering allowed for commonality with an existing type for a new certification (if that makes sense).

Also bear in mind that certification of the aircraft and type rating being shared across different sub-models are two different things. Without the same type rating as the NG, the MAX would have been a commercial not starter in the first place.
 
Luxair
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:47 am

Finn350 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Do Other Boeing models have multiple AOA sensors with majority readings prevailing or do they also rely on a single sensor.?
If other models have multiple sensors, what was the logic in "simplifying" the system in MAX.?


737MAX has two Angle-of-Attack sensors, but MCAS relies currently on a single sensor on any particular flight (if the sensors disagree, there is currently no way to know which one is right, if either). Boeing is implementing a software change which would take into account multiple sensors.


The main cause of the problem is not just the number of AoA sensors associated with MCAS, but the fact that the engines have been mounted farther forward. In plain language this means that this is a structural issue that has dramatically changed the aircraft's flight characteristics. The 738 and the stretched 9 had a similar problem, although less but they are relatively risky flying at the extreme edge of the flight envelope, not my word but that of experts and pilots. It was mentioned many times in the past but people tend to forget such minor details!
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:50 am

Virtual737 wrote:
SwissCanuck wrote:
I keep seeing this kind of comment, and either I'm incorrect or something is being left out.

Its my understanding that the MAX could never GET its own rating. Doing so would trigger re-certifying the whole plane - every part - and some aren't certifiable today. I think the most commonly used example is the doors - they do not meet todays standard but are grandfathered. So the problem is a lot bigger than pilots needing different ratings and paperwork.


You might very well be right. I'm not sure whether there is any grandfathering allowed for commonality with an existing type for a new certification (if that makes sense).

Also bear in mind that certification of the aircraft and type rating being shared across different sub-models are two different things. Without the same type rating as the NG, the MAX would have been a commercial not starter in the first place.


I'm going to guess that, in the end, most interested parties (that includes the airlines) would prefer a fix over a re-certification. Therefore, I doubt it'll come to that. We shall see.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Aither
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:52 am

Many 737 were sold using the common type rating argument. They just can't go backward because airlines and even Airbus could file lawsuits
Never trust the obvious
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:53 am

WIederling wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT

Nobody screamed.
It has barely made the general news here in Germany. In Today's paper there is a 3 sentence blob on the last page.
Not much more reporting overall since Monday.
2..3 days of contemplation. that does look quite the "cortical" decission.

Interesting, in the Netherlands it's headline news with major items on the main TV news programs and complete pages dedicated to the grounding in major quality newspapers.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:56 am

Momo1435 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT

Nobody screamed.
It has barely made the general news here in Germany. In Today's paper there is a 3 sentence blob on the last page.
Not much more reporting overall since Monday.
2..3 days of contemplation. that does look quite the "cortical" decission.

Interesting, in the Netherlands it's headline news with major items on the main TV news programs and complete pages dedicated to the grounding in major quality newspapers.


What's weird is "nobody screamed" at the same time we've had posts highlighting the public outcry, Twitter hashtags, multiple news stories, huge inconveniences for travelers, social movements (right Keesje?), airlines threatening to cancel orders, pilot union's speaking out, etc. All in less than 72 hours.

But ya, nobody screamed.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:11 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Nobody screamed.
It has barely made the general news here in Germany. In Today's paper there is a 3 sentence blob on the last page.
Not much more reporting overall since Monday.
2..3 days of contemplation. that does look quite the "cortical" decission.

Interesting, in the Netherlands it's headline news with major items on the main TV news programs and complete pages dedicated to the grounding in major quality newspapers.


What's weird is "nobody screamed" at the same time we've had posts highlighting the public outcry, Twitter hashtags, multiple news stories, huge inconveniences for travelers, social movements (right Keesje?), airlines threatening to cancel orders, pilot union's speaking out, etc. All in less than 72 hours.

But ya, nobody screamed.


I think the outcries are created by the lack of leadership and double agenda's people see at the FAA and Boeing. Then there is a big supporter group trying the generalize, launch strawmans, misquote people, ask for proof, divert attention, change topic, theydiditto, disperse, buy time hope it goes away.

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kyu
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:20 am

WIederling wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
THEY grounded the plane because people were screaming GROUND IT

Nobody screamed.
It has barely made the general news here in Germany. In Today's paper there is a 3 sentence blob on the last page.
Not much more reporting overall since Monday.
2..3 days of contemplation. that does look quite the "cortical" decission.


Come on, Uwe. Keep it real.
Last night, it was the second report (after Brexit) in the Tagesschau. Several articles on Spiegel Online and FAZ.net, even at the top of the page.
Reporting is definitely adequate to the situation.
 
uta999
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:31 am

They grounded the 737 MAX because if we use the 777 as an industry example, it was 18 years before 'the Koreans' managed to kill someone in one. The MH events do not count either. The MAX has already killed 357 in under two years, and within 5 months of each other during the climb. None of the fatal accidents on the 777 involved the aircraft design. The FAA is doing a Trump by supporting home industry over safety.
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Kilopond
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:35 am

Copied and pasted from flydubai.com:

Our Boeing 737 MAX 8 and MAX 9 aircraft have been grounded following the directive issued by the General Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA).
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:42 am

WIederling wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417739

This has been deleted. preventive maintainance by the midnight moderator? :-)))
was it folded into one of the bigger threads?


Apparently my thread got deleted, so I reposted the same info over 6 hours ago, but I couldn't alter my original link. I thought it important enough for the Dallas Morning News article, about airline pilots reporting lots of issues with controlling the 737 Max, to have its own thread. Previously 3 US Senators called for grounding the 737 Max fleet. They were Feinstein (D-CA), Blumenthal (D-CT), and Romney (R, UT). The Dallas Morning News article says that Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) who is the chairman of the subcommittee that has oversight of aviation also favors grounding the planes. I would think that a newspaper that has 2 major airlines headquartered in its readership area and flying 737 Max aircraft would be worthy of having a relevant thread of its own. Also consider that Senator Cruz represents a state that that 3 major airlines that have hubs in his state from which 737 Max operate.

I'll quote my second post with direct links to the publications.

There are at least 4 US Senators who have called for grounding the 737Max fleet. One of them, Ted Cruz, is the chairman of the subcommittee that has oversight over aviation.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 139465002/
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:46 am

eidvm wrote:
For Info:

Norwegian have ceased selling flights on their Transatlantic 737MAX flights from Dublin to the USA until the end of April, with all flights now down as sold out and flights for the month of May showing exceptionally higher than normal prices (€1,200 return) for economy return tickets, possibly in an attempt to limit purchases they feel they may be unable to fulfill. Would indicate they seem to think this grounding could go on for a number of weeks at a minimum until a satisfactory fix is designed and can be installed.

That's interesting that they're keeping the flights open. Doing so seems to be a lose-lose situation. Either you have to operate the flight with different equipment (likely with a fuelstop enroute), or you have to cancel it (leading to unhappy customers) or the 737MAX gets ungrounded and you operate the flight but with only a few pax onboard (due to the high price) and take a big loss. Wouldn't it be easier (and more profitable) just to cancel the flights until further notice?
First to fly the 787-9
 
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zkojq
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:46 am

Faro wrote:
ramzi wrote:
However people spin this, the fact is Boeing admits there is something to be done to improve the safety of this aircraft. The fact that the Lion Air crash was not enough for them to do that immediately, and then the fact that their response to the second crash is so stale is massively disappointing. Over 300 lives were lost, this is not the time to think of your stock price. But the really alarming situation is the FAA's lack of concern. This is starting to look like an unfortunate series of events that will lead to all 73M aircraft being grounded before the FAA admits this should happen. I will be flying out of my way to avoid that plane until further notice.



Fully agree on the FAA thing...if this turns out to be in whatever way imputable to B, the FAA should get whacked ten times harder...


oldannyboy wrote:
The best they can do is show they still have some clarity of thinking and are independent of commercial pressures; and then ground the MAX.

caljn wrote:
Government, especially in the US, is only as good as those who run it. Currently in charge is the party of "government is the problem" and are forever bemoaning "regulations". (actually regulations should be called "protections".)



The acting FAA Administrator is a former airline industry lobbyist. You've got full regulatory capture here - he's just doing what he was paid to do.

max999 wrote:
The New York Times explains how Boeing and the FAA are on the same page because of Boeing's big political influence over the US government.

Boeing Flights Grounded Across the Globe, but Not in the U.S. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/busi ... unded.html

Here are some sample quotes from the article.


Crazy for them to have so much influence over those who are supposed to be overseeing them. Unfortunately I guess this isn't really so uncommon - the banks and petrolium industries largely do the same.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:51 am

When does or did the EASA ban kick in? TVS420P is currently (departed just a few moments ago) operating as a MAX 8 from Vilnius to Prague.
 
WIederling
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:54 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:


The links are broken, unfortunately.

OT: Back a couple of years Airliners.net had another phase of strong midnight moderator action.
Wrote myself a scraping script to not lose interesting info that was deemed undesirable.
Unfortunately lost the software and would have to rewrite. Pressure to do that rises again.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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JohnKrist
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:59 am

Strange, the airspace over the EU is closed to MAX, still a Smartwings 737 8 MAX just took off from Vilnius to Prague.
Two Smartwings flights heading for Prague yesterday night ended up i Tunis and Ankara. Maybe they aren’t so smart...
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SQ948
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:02 am

positioning flights without passengers are excluded from the ban
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:05 am

SQ948 wrote:
positioning flights without passengers are excluded from the ban


Aha, doh. I guess that's why I can't find a schedule for TVS420P.

Thanks.
 
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:13 am

Interestingly, in all of the Americas, the only 737 MAX I can see currently are American, Copa, United and Air Canada. Nothing from South West. Surely it's not too early in the day for them to be up and about?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:18 am

uta999 wrote:
They grounded the 737 MAX because if we use the 777 as an industry example, it was 18 years before 'the Koreans' managed to kill someone in one. The MH events do not count either. The MAX has already killed 357 in under two years, and within 5 months of each other during the climb. None of the fatal accidents on the 777 involved the aircraft design. The FAA is doing a Trump by supporting home industry over safety.


No, they grounded the MAX because investigations into the previous accident showed that there is a failure condition that can create an recoverable flight situation given certain technical faults and errors by the crew. The second accident shows similar characteristics, so previous calculations of the likelihood of this failure condition might have been rendered obsolete.
 
art
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:29 am

PlanesNTrains wrote:
art wrote:
Zaf wrote:
The MAX keeps diving and pilots can't do anything about it.


If this has happened twice, the aircraft should not be flying. I believe that the unexpected changes in altitude of both aircraft involved are a strong indication that the aircraft can become uncontrollable due to malfunction of the MCAS system. Aircraft that - even on extremely rare occasions - become uncontrollable should not be flying.

Is there definite proof that the MCAS system failed? Perhaps not but I don't think that matters. Until that is ruled out or if confirmed, a fix be engineered and that fix be implemented, further use of the 737 MAX is too risky IMO.


To be clear, does the aircraft have to impact the ground for it to count?


No.

By the way I read that there has been more than one report submitted by pilots reporting the aircraft adopting a nose down attitude. This from USA Today indicates to me that Boeing underestimated the gravity of the malfunction:

Flight data recovered from the Indonesia crash indicated pilots repeatedly tried to get the plane’s nose up before impact. After the crash, Boeing issued a service bulletin warning pilots that erroneous flight data fed into the MCAS could force the aircraft into a dive for up to 10 seconds.


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 145393002/

And if that were to happen repeatedly without the pilot flying having sufficient time to climb to recover from losing altitude for up to 10 seconds, would the aircraft not finally arrive at ground zero? And what if it happened just once at low altitude on final approach?
 
navjotgill45
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:33 am

maint123 wrote:
Finn350 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Do Other Boeing models have multiple AOA sensors with majority readings prevailing or do they also rely on a single sensor.?
If other models have multiple sensors, what was the logic in "simplifying" the system in MAX.?


737MAX has two Angle-of-Attack sensors, but MCAS relies currently on a single sensor on any particular flight (if the sensors disagree, there is currently no way to know which one is right, if either). Boeing is implementing a software change which would take into account multiple sensors.

If you want to read more on AOA.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... story.html


If that's right I find it astonishing that MCAS was certified under this regime. Given the quite large and apparently abrupt alterations in pitch MCAS can command, one would assume some redundancy/cross-check procedure would be in place to identify/rectify a faulty data situation in case the primary sensor goes AWOL. An example could have been deactivation under certain conditions? Perhaps someone with more knowledge/experience could explain?
 
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TurboJet707
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:41 am

uta999 wrote:
They grounded the 737 MAX because if we use the 777 as an industry example, it was 18 years before 'the Koreans' managed to kill someone in one. The MH events do not count either. The MAX has already killed 357 in under two years, and within 5 months of each other during the climb. None of the fatal accidents on the 777 involved the aircraft design. The FAA is doing a Trump by supporting home industry over safety.


Agreed. But perhaps the A340 is an even better example: 370 of them have been built, roughly the same number as 737MAXs flying until last week. The A340 has been flying for almost 30 years, and yet, there hasn't been a single lethal accident with an A340 in airline service. Zero fatalities in 28 years versus more than 350 in 5 months, with comparable fleet sizes. In that perspective, the statistics don't look good for the MAX.
 
russwatters
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:50 am

For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:54 am

russwatters wrote:
For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?

That’s a bit more complicated. Presumably, some of those aircraft would have to eventually be ferried back to their non-EU bases which would involve taking off over populated areas. I would have allowed them to land, but I can see some merit in both positions.
 
namezero111111
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 am

russwatters wrote:
For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?


The grounding went into effect at a specified time; I am sure the airlines in questions knew about it before.
This is more about procedure; if a grounding is in effect for an airspace at a certain time it doesn't matter whether they were enroute or not. Kind of like a TFR.

Magog wrote:
That’s a bit more complicated. Presumably, some of those aircraft would have to eventually be ferried back to their non-EU bases which would involve taking off over populated areas. I would have allowed them to land, but I can see some merit in both positions.


AFAIK non-revenue ops / ferry flighs are still permissible under the European grounding.
 
Blotto
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:57 am

navjotgill45 wrote:
If that's right I find it astonishing that MCAS was certified under this regime. Given the quite large and apparently abrupt alterations in pitch MCAS can command, one would assume some redundancy/cross-check procedure would be in place to identify/rectify a faulty data situation in case the primary sensor goes AWOL. An example could have been deactivation under certain conditions? Perhaps someone with more knowledge/experience could explain?


How would you cross check a system with two sensors? You never know which one is faulty. Which basically only leaves you one choice: deactivate the system you think is necessary for a stable flight if the values disagree. One could argue Boeing should've done that from the start, most likely losing the common type rating.

And by the way: This issue can't be solved by software. They would a third alpha vane to at least have a chance of voting out the faulty AoA value.
 
mig17
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:58 am

russwatters wrote:
For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?


In terms of PAX safety, it is a non-sence, but you have to consider that if the flight lands in an airport which is not is base, it will have to take off again to go home empty and then you may endanger people on the ground.
So I don't know if it is a justifed decision, but dura lex, sed lex ...
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journeyperson
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:00 am

Magog wrote:
That’s a bit more complicated. Presumably, some of those aircraft would have to eventually be ferried back to their non-EU bases which would involve taking off over populated areas. I would have allowed them to land, but I can see some merit in both positions.


Was it a matter of getting the planes back to their bases or were some turned back even though they were on their way home?
 
Andy33
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:00 am

russwatters wrote:
For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?

Do we know if the planes were turned round because the airlines found that the best way of dealing with the situation, or whether national aviation authorities (sometimes their own) forced them to do exactly that? For example FlyDubai completed their flight to Helsinki and then positioned home empty this last after the ban had taken effect, and obviously EASA and the UAE permitted that, since it has happened. But Turkish turned some planes round. If the problems only occur shortly after takeoff, it might make sense to ensure the plane doesn't need to take off again, even empty, until a definitive fix is available.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 am

So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.
Last edited by DL747400 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United1
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 am

Virtual737 wrote:
Interestingly, in all of the Americas, the only 737 MAX I can see currently are American, Copa, United and Air Canada. Nothing from South West. Surely it's not too early in the day for them to be up and about?


Southwest doesn’t fly overnight flights so you won’t see MAX or any other type 737 flights from them until around 6am ET. There are a few up in the air now.
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