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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:22 am

scbriml wrote:

It doesn't matter what a.net posters think, the World's aviation authorities clearly think there's reason enough the ground the MAX.


Groundings which were announced well after some here were demanding a grounding... :roll:
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Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:26 am

United1 wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
Interestingly, in all of the Americas, the only 737 MAX I can see currently are American, Copa, United and Air Canada. Nothing from South West. Surely it's not too early in the day for them to be up and about?


Southwest doesn’t fly overnight flights so you won’t see MAX or any other type 737 flights from them until around 6am ET. There are a few up in the air now.


Understood, thanks. Yep saw 4 start up around 30 minutes or so ago.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:28 am

777Jet wrote:
Groundings which were announced well after some here were demanding a grounding... :roll:


What are you saying, posters here led to the 737MAX being grounded? :confused:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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cougar15
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:32 am

777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:

It doesn't matter what a.net posters think, the World's aviation authorities clearly think there's reason enough the ground the MAX.


Groundings which were announced well after some here were demanding a grounding... :roll:


So A.Net was smarter than your and my governing body (well, at least we were not far behind the Asian countries), heads up to us users!
I am not comfortable to fly on one at present, questions need answering.
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:34 am

One of the factors that isn't brought up as to this situation is how the partial USA government shut down for 35 days in Dec.2018-Jan 2019 over a few billion for a 'border wall' funding that Pres. Trump demanded, delayed Boeing from getting FAA/NTSB approval for the changes to the MCAS software for 737MAX series aircraft. As noted by others, the approval may not be until late April. That was likely long enough to perhaps cause the loss of the ET flight. So Pres. Trump and political leaders of both parties in our Congress have blood on their hands for this and must call for grounding 737MAX's until further notice to cover their butts.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:35 am

DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.


You don't know if MCAS was the issue that downed the Ethiopian jet. Maybe there is another issue. You can't possibly know the things you speak of. Let the investigation run its course.
Last edited by TTailedTiger on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:37 am

ltbewr wrote:
One of the factors that isn't brought up as to this situation is how the partial USA government shut down for 35 days in Dec.2018-Jan 2019 over a few billion for a 'border wall' funding that Pres. Trump demanded, delayed Boeing from getting FAA/NTSB approval for the changes to the MCAS software for 737MAX series aircraft. As noted by others, the approval may not be until late April. That was likely long enough to perhaps cause the loss of the ET flight. So Pres. Trump and political leaders of both parties in our Congress have blood on their hands for this and must call for grounding 737MAX's until further notice to cover their butts.


Well, then if no upgrade was possible due to lack of approval, resulting from a shutdown, they should have been grounded that very day!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
navjotgill45
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:38 am

Blotto wrote:
navjotgill45 wrote:
If that's right I find it astonishing that MCAS was certified under this regime. Given the quite large and apparently abrupt alterations in pitch MCAS can command, one would assume some redundancy/cross-check procedure would be in place to identify/rectify a faulty data situation in case the primary sensor goes AWOL. An example could have been deactivation under certain conditions? Perhaps someone with more knowledge/experience could explain?


How would you cross check a system with two sensors? You never know which one is faulty. Which basically only leaves you one choice: deactivate the system you think is necessary for a stable flight if the values disagree. One could argue Boeing should've done that from the start, most likely losing the common type rating.

And by the way: This issue can't be solved by software. They would a third alpha vane to at least have a chance of voting out the faulty AoA value.


Isn't all MCAS needs to "know" is that there is a disagreement between the sensors, which may lead MCAS to compromise the safety of the flight if it acts upon faulty data? It shouldn't necessarily require needing to figure out which sensor is faulty. That's the pilots job as others have mentioned.
When the checklist calls for STAB TRIM CUTOFF, isn't that basically the same thing as pre-programmed automatic deactivation, expect the pilots have to quickly figure everything out?
I take your point about the type-rating. But if the MCAS certification was as it seems, it makes you wonder if it was worth it.
I'm just really curious about the certification of the MCAS, hence my numerous posts.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:39 am

cougar15 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:

It doesn't matter what a.net posters think, the World's aviation authorities clearly think there's reason enough the ground the MAX.


Groundings which were announced well after some here were demanding a grounding... :roll:


So A.Net was smarter than your and my governing body (well, at least we were not far behind the Asian countries), heads up to us users!
I am not comfortable to fly on one at present, questions need answering.


We'll see how smart (or not) both the authorities that grounded and they are after the probable cause is actually determined ;)
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Carlos01
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:42 am

art wrote:
By the way I read that there has been more than one report submitted by pilots reporting the aircraft adopting a nose down attitude. This from USA Today indicates to me that Boeing underestimated the gravity of the malfunction:

Flight data recovered from the Indonesia crash indicated pilots repeatedly tried to get the plane’s nose up before impact. After the crash, Boeing issued a service bulletin warning pilots that erroneous flight data fed into the MCAS could force the aircraft into a dive for up to 10 seconds.


https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 145393002/

And if that were to happen repeatedly without the pilot flying having sufficient time to climb to recover from losing altitude for up to 10 seconds, would the aircraft not finally arrive at ground zero? And what if it happened just once at low altitude on final approach?


I read earlier through the reports from the (presumed) American pilots, and interestingly at least 2 cases were about the plane pushing nose down after takeoff, while autopilot was on - meaning the MCAS should not even be active. The pilot had to disengage the autopilot and continue flying manually, which fixed the problem. And there was another case where the autopilot had been instructed to climb to FL36, but instead it actually paused the climb on FL34 - without giving any indication that indeed the flight level was no other than commanded. Well, on a personal note, I'm happy it at least didn't stop on FL33 or 35, 'cause that would be "bad".

If these accounts are true (which I would assume), then there is potentially a serious problem with the MAX, which goes way beyond of simply hitting some arbitrary switches to fix a problem. And that in turn could mean that a proper "bugfix" could indeed take a while. Maybe even redesigning the entire flight control software (whatever the damn thing is called I don't know), including redesigned sensors and their input to the software. Sounds like a nice weekend project, no?

EDIT: Oh, and one interesting anecdote also from the reports, one pilot (while describing something else) said that he always flies manually beyond 10000ft, in order to avoid the MCAS issue. Which also sounds grand.
Last edited by Carlos01 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:49 am

777Jet wrote:
I'm saying some in here were calling for a grounding minutes after the crash. Such uninformed claims and knee-jerk reactions are what some of us are in disagreement with.


777Jet wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
We'll see how smart (or not) both the authorities that grounded and they are after the probable cause is actually determined ;)


Both of these quotes miss the whole point.

Grounding was being called for because this was the second crash of a new type within a few months. There are still outstanding questions about MCAS. There is still an "unapplied fix" due for the MAX. The call for the grounding could have been made seconds (not minutes) after the ET crash and reports that it was during initial climb and there were reports of control problems. It would have been just as valid.

It was called for out of an abundance of caution, not because the second crash was known to be caused by the same as the first.

What happens as a result of the investigation does not make the call for grounding ANY less appropriate. The call can only be made with information available now and erring on the definite side of caution should never be belittled in an industry that prides itself on safety improvements.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:50 am

Canada: Garneau to provide update on Canada's Boeing 737 MAX 8 plan

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/03/13/garneau-boeing-737-max-8-plan/

Transport Minister Marc Garneau is set to update Ottawa’s position on the Boeing 737 Max 8, the aircraft that crashed in Ethiopia, and whether Canada will fall in line with other nations that have grounded the planes.

Garneau is scheduled to address Canada’s plan and safety concerns regarding the Max 8, but it’s not yet clear whether he will impose similar restrictions on the aircraft.

The update comes after Toronto-based Sunwing Airlines announced late Tuesday that it is temporarily grounding its four Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft in the wake of the crash in Addis Ababa that killed all 157 people on board, including 18 Canadians.


Image

Sunwing stopped flying, crews unions wants options, passengers who want to re-book their flights to avoid the Max 8.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:57 am

I'm left wondering why do the FAA bother to go through the whole rigmarole of certification at all if it seems they actually require positive confirmation that an aircraft is unsafe - rather than the more conventional view of certification, in which you seek to confirm that all aspects are safe.
 
ELBOB
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:57 am

Blotto wrote:
How would you cross check a system with two sensors? You never know which one is faulty. Which basically only leaves you one choice: deactivate the system you think is necessary for a stable flight if the values disagree. One could argue Boeing should've done that from the start, most likely losing the common type rating.


Exactly, which leads to the question as to why a system with only two sensors was approved.

Possibly something to do with the FAA Organizational Designation Authorization appointee for handling the 737 Max certification which happened to be... Boeing. Yes, the FAA delegated the authority to certify the aircraft to its manufacturer.

The same crazy situation as with the 787, after which the FAA criticised Boeing for failing to investigate potential battery issues as part of the process. But then they did it again.
Last edited by ELBOB on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:02 pm

777Jet wrote:
We'll see how smart (or not) both the authorities that grounded and they are after the probable cause is actually determined ;)


Er, no.

That is completely the wrong attitude to take.

The grounding is justified, regardless of whether a common fault is found or not.


When doubt exists over whether an aircraft is operationally safe, then it should be grounded until such time as it can be proven safe.
 
Cathay777300ER
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:03 pm

Turkish has/are sending their 737 maxes both 8 and 9 to ISL (Istanbul New Airport). Probably cheaper parking.
 
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DL747400
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:03 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
You don't know if MCAS was the issue that downed the Ethiopian jet. Maybe there is another issue. You can't possibly know the things you speak of. Let the investigation run its course.


And you don't know that MCAS wasn't the cause of the ET crash. You can't possibly know the things you speak of. Let the FAA, BOEING, WN, AA and UA for once put their own self-interests aside and instead come down on the side of safety. It's not worth the risk.
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jimbobjoe
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:05 pm

russwatters wrote:
For those who believe the groundings were justified; do you likewise believe that turning planes around mid-flight was justified, given that the main known commonality between the two crashes is that they occurred shortly after takeoff (and the vague "control problems")?


Turning around aircraft in mid-air is a consequence of what happens legally when an aircraft type is grounded.

When a grounding occurs, the regulator pulls the airworthiness certificate.

At that point, it is not legal for that aircraft type to carry passengers.

It's a binary thing, either the airplane is certified to carry passengers, or it isn't. There is no middle ground.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:06 pm

DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.



They may lose credibility temporarily, but that’s it. People forget things very fast in the social media age. The masses will have another outrage to move onto in a few days.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 pm

zkojq wrote:
Faro wrote:
ramzi wrote:
However people spin this, the fact is Boeing admits there is something to be done to improve the safety of this aircraft. The fact that the Lion Air crash was not enough for them to do that immediately, and then the fact that their response to the second crash is so stale is massively disappointing. Over 300 lives were lost, this is not the time to think of your stock price. But the really alarming situation is the FAA's lack of concern. This is starting to look like an unfortunate series of events that will lead to all 73M aircraft being grounded before the FAA admits this should happen. I will be flying out of my way to avoid that plane until further notice.



Fully agree on the FAA thing...if this turns out to be in whatever way imputable to B, the FAA should get whacked ten times harder...


oldannyboy wrote:
The best they can do is show they still have some clarity of thinking and are independent of commercial pressures; and then ground the MAX.

caljn wrote:
Government, especially in the US, is only as good as those who run it. Currently in charge is the party of "government is the problem" and are forever bemoaning "regulations". (actually regulations should be called "protections".)



The acting FAA Administrator is a former airline industry lobbyist. You've got full regulatory capture here - he's just doing what he was paid to do.

max999 wrote:
The New York Times explains how Boeing and the FAA are on the same page because of Boeing's big political influence over the US government.

Boeing Flights Grounded Across the Globe, but Not in the U.S. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/busi ... unded.html

Here are some sample quotes from the article.


Crazy for them to have so much influence over those who are supposed to be overseeing them. Unfortunately I guess this isn't really so uncommon - the banks and petrolium industries largely do the same.


It clearly shows what a puppets&bananas democracy the US is. It's a country where EVERYTHING is about $$$$$- nothing else. It's the country where pharmaceutical companies finance research... on the illnesses they need for selling their own more profitable drugs!
There's no other country where people are so deeply and hopelessly in the hands of the large corporations, oil producers and banks. The US makes even the most advanced European economies (even those with a more liberistic approach!) look like communist countries with state controlled economies!
The people, American citizens, are simply and merely CONSUMERS -nothing more, nothing less. It's so sad and shocking, but it's also so very plain obvious with the MAX case...
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:10 pm

navjotgill45 wrote:
Any altitude restrictions related to stall speed would probably reduce max operating altitude too low to make flying economical, alongside range restrictions.


Well, similar restrictions were imposed by the DCGA on P&W powered NEO's if I remember correctly.
Anyway, point I'm trying to make, is that there may have been options short of grounding - but it would have meant accepting a degree of liability.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
lowbank
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:11 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.


You don't know if MCAS was the issue that downed the Ethiopian jet. Maybe there is another issue. You can't possibly know the things you speak of. Let the investigation run its course.


So in Summary Sir.
We know there is an unresolved issue that can mean a Max can nose plant itself into the ground.
You think there could be a second issue that means a Max can nose plant itself into the ground.
I suggest that adds to the argument to ground the Max.
Every days a school day.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:14 pm

777Jet wrote:
I'm saying some in here were calling for a grounding minutes after the crash. Such uninformed claims and knee-jerk reactions are what some of us are in disagreement with.


So are you now in agreement with all those aviation authorities around the World that have grounded the 737MAX while having any more specific information?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:18 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.



They may lose credibility temporarily, but that’s it. People forget things very fast in the social media age. The masses will have another outrage to move onto in a few days.


Nope, it sticks. Some airlines are openly reconsidering existing orders, double agenda's are picked up in the media. Passengers are learning what a 737 MAX is about. Meanwhile the FAA and Boeing look deaf. They better stop dragging their feet right now, or people start loosing their jobs. For failing to recognize the critical situation and act accordingly.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:25 pm

TurboJet707 wrote:
uta999 wrote:
They grounded the 737 MAX because if we use the 777 as an industry example, it was 18 years before 'the Koreans' managed to kill someone in one. The MH events do not count either. The MAX has already killed 357 in under two years, and within 5 months of each other during the climb. None of the fatal accidents on the 777 involved the aircraft design. The FAA is doing a Trump by supporting home industry over safety.


Agreed. But perhaps the A340 is an even better example: 370 of them have been built, roughly the same number as 737MAXs flying until last week. The A340 has been flying for almost 30 years, and yet, there hasn't been a single lethal accident with an A340 in airline service. Zero fatalities in 28 years versus more than 350 in 5 months, with comparable fleet sizes. In that perspective, the statistics don't look good for the MAX.


More to the point, you have similarities between the two incidents and Boeing delivering 60 planes per month. Statistically, the probability of a similar incident before the end of the year was actually high. What regulator is willing to risk that happening in their turf?

People can argue that maintenance, training and experience are different in North America and that may indeed provide enough justification not to ground. But that doesn't really argue against the need for a grounding elsewhere.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:27 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
SQ948 wrote:
positioning flights without passengers are excluded from the ban


Aha, doh. I guess that's why I can't find a schedule for TVS420P.

Thanks.


With a few airlines the P suffix on the call sign means positioning flight (ie No Passengers) - Aircraft are being allowed to return to base/storage (TUI UK have parked their fleet up together at Manchester)
 
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cougar15
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:30 pm

keesje wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.



They may lose credibility temporarily, but that’s it. People forget things very fast in the social media age. The masses will have another outrage to move onto in a few days.


Nope, it sticks. Some airlines are openly reconsidering existing orders, double agenda's are picked up in the media. Passengers are learning what a 737 MAX is about. Meanwhile the FAA and Boeing look deaf. They better stop dragging their feet right now, or people start loosing their jobs. For failing to recognize the critical situation and act accordingly.



Now with all due respect Sir, but of course any clever airline CEO on this very day will make use of these tragic circumstances and lay a Sheiksstorm on Boeing. And no matter which side of the A/B fence you sit on, this will be going on a lot in the coming days! It is called ensuring and enhancing shareholder value and protecting one´s very own bonus!
I bet MOL will sign a new deal for 500 737´s next week. :stirthepot: :stirthepot: :stirthepot:
I do not agree with Boeing´s approach on dealing with this tragedy , but let us stay objective please!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:33 pm

keesje wrote:
Canada: Garneau to provide update on Canada's Boeing 737 MAX 8 plan

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/03/13/garneau-boeing-737-max-8-plan/

Transport Minister Marc Garneau is set to update Ottawa’s position on the Boeing 737 Max 8, the aircraft that crashed in Ethiopia, and whether Canada will fall in line with other nations that have grounded the planes.

Garneau is scheduled to address Canada’s plan and safety concerns regarding the Max 8, but it’s not yet clear whether he will impose similar restrictions on the aircraft.

The update comes after Toronto-based Sunwing Airlines announced late Tuesday that it is temporarily grounding its four Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft in the wake of the crash in Addis Ababa that killed all 157 people on board, including 18 Canadians.


Image

Sunwing stopped flying, crews unions wants options, passengers who want to re-book their flights to avoid the Max 8.


In 2.5 hours there will be a live press conference that can be followed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234
Many people on the phone in North America as we speak, I can assure you.

P.S. cougar15 pls, we have 300 bodies.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
navjotgill45
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:34 pm

BaconButty wrote:
navjotgill45 wrote:
Any altitude restrictions related to stall speed would probably reduce max operating altitude too low to make flying economical, alongside range restrictions.


Well, similar restrictions were imposed by the DCGA on P&W powered NEO's if I remember correctly.
Anyway, point I'm trying to make, is that there may have been options short of grounding - but it would have meant accepting a degree of liability.


Didn't know about the A320 restrictions thanks for that. The degrees of liability would have depended on what type of flying airlines do eg long haul TATL or short 1.5 hr hops. But since planes can stall at any flight regime not sure altitude restrictions would do much in these cases. Happy to be corrected though
 
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drerx7
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:35 pm

If the issue is the cg change forward makes the Max8 more prone to stall... does the increased length of the Max9 and Max10 theoretically offset this?
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
Amiga500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:40 pm

drerx7 wrote:
If the issue is the cg change forward makes the Max8 more prone to stall... does the increased length of the Max9 and Max10 theoretically offset this?


Its the aero centre moving forward (due to the effect of the larger nacelles placed further ahead of the wing) which causes the problem - furthermore, the nacelles only really generate significant lift when at significant angle of attack - so its not a linear thing.


Larger elevators would have restored sufficient pitch authority - but probably would have busted the grandfathering of the cert.
 
Etika
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:48 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
So sick of all of this drama.

To be clear, there are 3 separate failures going on here:

1. The FAA has failed to mandate that the 737-MAX be grounded in the interest of protecting the flying public until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

2. BOEING has failed to voluntarily step up and encourage all U.S. carriers operating the 737-MAX to voluntarily ground the jets until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

3. WN, AA and UA have each failed to step up in the interest of protecting their passengers and crews by voluntarily and proactively grounding the 737-MAX until such time as the MCAS software fix is in place on all 737-MAX aircraft.

FAA, BOEING, WN,, AA, and UA are each losing credibility by the day as a result of failure to act decisively. We all hope and pray that there is not another 737-MAX crash between now and the time that the software fix is in place. Each commercial airline passenger has the responsibility to educate themselves. It is easy to find out the aircraft type when booking travel and by asking again at the gate prior to boarding.



They may lose credibility temporarily, but that’s it. People forget things very fast in the social media age. The masses will have another outrage to move onto in a few days.


That would be true if the MAX fleet had bee grounded. Then the issue would be out of news in day or two and by the time grounding would be lifted pretty much only thing that would be left in peoples' minds would be "it's safe now". And that would be true even if there would be some problems found during the investigation.

But this approach FAA, Boeing, and US airlines have taken mean that it is not happening. The social media response and the news in media mean that this issue remains in peoples' notice for long time. And every new article reinforces two messages to the public: Two of 737 MAX crashed in short time and most other countries have grounded it already. Since these points keep repeating, they will form rather quickly a lasting perception of unsafe aircraft among the public. And such an image can not be changed easily, or at all, after it has formed, even if the investigations show that there is nothing wrong with 737 MAX.

For public image, single news, even when dramatic, rarely create a lasting impression. Thus, any implicit admission by Boeing that 737 MAX might have trouble almost surely would have a lasting impact on the image of the 737 MAX. However, repeating similar messages do create image, and lasting one at that. Leaving the 737 MAX flying has created just the kind of media situation that can create a lasting, negative image of it. Thus, regardless of FAA's decision, it really would be in Boeing's interest to recommend a temporary grounding of the plane - at least when thinking of the public image of the plane, and by extension of the company itself. Of course that might be complicated by the considerations on possible compensations.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:50 pm

What I understand is that because of the position of the engines the aircraft is nose heavy and uses a system called MCAS to keep it trimmed up. If a certain sensor fails, it can pitch nose down unexpectedly and pilots don't really know what to do when this happens because the trim is more powerful than the elevators. Because it looks and feels like a normal 737, perhaps pilots have a false sense of confidence.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
DL717 wrote:
A pilot with 200 hours can barely wipe his own ass. People acting like this isn’t an issue are completely ignorant. Doesn’t matter if he’s steering the damn thing. He’s not equipped to help when needed. This was a single pilot operation period.


I hope you didn't fly in the US before 2013 when the FAA minimum requirement was just 250 hours? It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Colgan crash to increase it 1,500 hours. IIRC, both Colgan pilots had over 1,500 hours anyway.


Yeah, maybe in a metroliner.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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cougar15
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:53 pm

keesje wrote:
keesje wrote:
Canada: Garneau to provide update on Canada's Boeing 737 MAX 8 plan

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/03/13/garneau-boeing-737-max-8-plan/

Transport Minister Marc Garneau is set to update Ottawa’s position on the Boeing 737 Max 8, the aircraft that crashed in Ethiopia, and whether Canada will fall in line with other nations that have grounded the planes.

Garneau is scheduled to address Canada’s plan and safety concerns regarding the Max 8, but it’s not yet clear whether he will impose similar restrictions on the aircraft.

The update comes after Toronto-based Sunwing Airlines announced late Tuesday that it is temporarily grounding its four Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft in the wake of the crash in Addis Ababa that killed all 157 people on board, including 18 Canadians.


Image

Sunwing stopped flying, crews unions wants options, passengers who want to re-book their flights to avoid the Max 8.


In 2.5 hours there will be a live press conference that can be followed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234
Many people on the phone in North America as we speak, I can assure you.

P.S. cougar15 pls, we have 300 bodies.



It is actually a few more than 300. And having displayed the utmost respect towards the victims of all the recent crashes in all the recent threads, and as a well known Airbus fanboy, I don´t think some of our most respected members should not gloat on Boeings missfortune and clever CEO´s payling their game! Again, love Airbus and totally disagree with the Boeing crisis management on this, but you were the one who bought ´Airlines considering switching orders´ into this thread!


PS: Keesje: we have 327 victims! Let´s stay objective!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:53 pm

scbriml wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I'm saying some in here were calling for a grounding minutes after the crash. Such uninformed claims and knee-jerk reactions are what some of us are in disagreement with.


So are you now in agreement with all those aviation authorities around the World that have grounded the 737MAX while having any more specific information?


No. IMHO the groundings are still premature (just not as premature as the earlier calls on here for the grounding, which started this discussion).
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ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:05 pm

777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I'm saying some in here were calling for a grounding minutes after the crash. Such uninformed claims and knee-jerk reactions are what some of us are in disagreement with.


So are you now in agreement with all those aviation authorities around the World that have grounded the 737MAX while having any more specific information?


No. IMHO the groundings are still premature (just not as premature as the earlier calls on here for the grounding, which started this discussion).


Why premature? Most of those regulators had no more information than anybody here. And made the same call. I'd say that validated the calls of those of us who thought a grounding was a valid course of action.

It's not just the fact that it's the same type. It's the similarities between phase of flight, reported issues and the dynamics of the crash themselves. If the Ethiopian MAX8 reached 30 000 ft and spontaneously combusted an hour in, I don't think a grounding would be warranted. But, when both happen minutes after departure, the risk is particularly high that they'll plant one in an urban area. No regulator wants that on their watch.
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:05 pm

cougar15 wrote:
, but you were the one who bought ´Airlines considering switching orders´ into this thread!


Yes,

- Virgin Australia,
- Lion Air ,
- Malaysian Airlines.
- Vietjet
- Kenya Airways

But that's factual.
Last edited by keesje on Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:09 pm

navjotgill45 wrote:
Didn't know about the A320 restrictions thanks for that. The degrees of liability would have depended on what type of flying airlines do eg long haul TATL or short 1.5 hr hops. But since planes can stall at any flight regime not sure altitude restrictions would do much in these cases. Happy to be corrected though


I'm more wondering aloud really. The problem MCAS addresses is well set out in this Leeham.net article. So basically, you want the forces resisting pitch to increase linearly with stick deflection. As the max enters pre-stall that linear relationship breaks down, and you get bigger increases in pitch for the same increase in stick force - which is bad. But not nearly as bad, it strikes me, as the dogs dinner that is MCAS especially when it kicks in on flap retraction when a crew may already be task saturated dealing with unreliable air-speed, say.

So I was just thinking if you kept the aircraft well away from coffin corner, where the speed bled from a pitch up might not be the end of the world, you might reduce the risk of MCAS being disabled to an acceptable point - certainly better than having it enabled. But more asking the question, really.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
ytz
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:10 pm

That Dallas News article is particularly problematic. Looks like issues with automation beyond MCAS. And personally, I've long suspected this is more than MCAS. Especially with ET, now that we know the Capt on the ET crew was briefed on MCAS.
 
mcdu
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:13 pm

777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I'm saying some in here were calling for a grounding minutes after the crash. Such uninformed claims and knee-jerk reactions are what some of us are in disagreement with.


So are you now in agreement with all those aviation authorities around the World that have grounded the 737MAX while having any more specific information?


No. IMHO the groundings are still premature (just not as premature as the earlier calls on here for the grounding, which started this discussion).



I agree. Until the data is in a grounding is not warranted. If the aircraft was flyable with the correct pilot inputs what happens to the countries that have grounded the fleets? Do they let them go flying but say only let the pilots that are good with stick and rudder skills fly them? This is a slippery slope.

Way too many pilots that rely on the AP and AT from minimum connect to disconnect height on an average flight. Hand flying skills are a perishable commodity if you don't stay proficient. My philosophy has always been to use the AP to do what you would be doing with your hands. Not just rely on the AP to solve your airmanship issues.
 
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eisenbach
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:14 pm

I just got the message that EASA issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, grounding The Boeing Company, Commercial Airplanes Group Models 737-8 and 737-9 aeroplanes, all serial numbers:

Prompted by a fatal accident with a Boeing 737-8 ‘MAX’ aeroplane, the exact causes of which are still being investigated, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), representing the State of Design for the affected aeroplanes, issued Emergency AD 2018-23-51 (later replaced by a Final Rule AD) to require certain changes to the Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) regarding Runaway Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Limitations and Procedures.

Since that action, another fatal accident occurred. At this early stage of the related investigation, it cannot be excluded that similar causes may have contributed to both events. Just after the second event, the FAA issued CANIC 2019-03, providing information concerning progress on the development of mitigating actions.

Based on all available information, EASA considers that further actions may be necessary to ensure the continued airworthiness of the two affected models.
For the reasons described above, pending the availability of more information, EASA has decided to suspend all flight operations of the two affected models.

This AD is considered an interim action and further AD action is expected to follow.

Required Action(s) and Compliance Time(s):
Required as indicated, unless accomplished previously:

From the effective date and time of this AD, do not operate the aeroplane, except that a single non-commercial ferry flight (up to three flight cycles) may be accomplished to return the aeroplane to a location where the expected corrective action(s) can be accomplished.
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WIederling
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:15 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
What I understand is that because of the position of the engines the aircraft is nose heavy and uses a system called MCAS to keep it trimmed up.


With increasing ( real ) AoA the engine nacelles drag causes a nose up moment. ( potentially ending in a stable unrecoverable stall.)
MCAS trims down on high AoA indication.
If it gets "unreal" excessive AoA indication it trims the plane into the ground.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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DL747400
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:15 pm

Interesting question to consider: How much additional legal liability are Boeing and the airlines which continue to operate the 737-MAX facing in the event that there is another crash involving the 737-MAX and it ends up being linked to the same issue suspected as the cause of the Lion Air and Ethiopian crashes?

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not well versed on aviation law or the settlement costs associated with a "typical" crash (if there is such a thing). Perhaps someone with an aviation law background can chime in here? We do not yet know the exact cause of these 2 crashes, but the suspected cause is widely known. Is there not potentially a substantial amount of additional legal liability involved in making a conscious decision to continue operating the 737-MAX well after it was already widely known that the suspected cause of the crashes is unique to the 737-MAX?

I am having flashbacks here of the DC-10 debacle in the 1970's when both Convair/General Dynamics and McDonnell Douglas knew that there were problems with the design of the DC-10's rear cargo door which could allow the door to open in-flight with catastrophic results, yet they and the FAA allowed the DC-10 to continue operating while a fix was designed and installed. Time ran out and the world was shocked by the loss of 346 lives in the crash of Turkish Airlines flight 981 shortly after takeoff from Paris in March, 1974.
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cougar15
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:18 pm

keesje wrote:
cougar15 wrote:
, but you were the one who bought ´Airlines considering switching orders´ into this thread!


Yes, Virgin Australia, Lion Air , Malaysian Airlines. But that's factual.


Right you are indeed:

VA - not in the best of financial positions for some years...…
JT - probably bighting off a little more than they can chew and see a chance - under very tragic circumstances - to correct that
MH - If I win the super Lotto in my timezone on Saturday, perhaps I can buy them for 1 Euro!

Airline senior management and their analysts right now are all having a bunch of board meetings to see how to best make use of these tragedies, it is as simple as that !

#ground737MAX
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:18 pm

ytz wrote:
777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:

So are you now in agreement with all those aviation authorities around the World that have grounded the 737MAX while having any more specific information?


No. IMHO the groundings are still premature (just not as premature as the earlier calls on here for the grounding, which started this discussion).


Why premature? Most of those regulators had no more information than anybody here. And made the same call. I'd say that validated the calls of those of us who thought a grounding was a valid course of action.

It's not just the fact that it's the same type. It's the similarities between phase of flight, reported issues and the dynamics of the crash themselves. If the Ethiopian MAX8 reached 30 000 ft and spontaneously combusted an hour in, I don't think a grounding would be warranted. But, when both happen minutes after departure, the risk is particularly high that they'll plant one in an urban area. No regulator wants that on their watch.


Better tell the regulator that first certified it. The same regulator with the most to lose (for themselves and especially the manufacturer).
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bourbon
Posts: 139
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:19 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One of the factors that isn't brought up as to this situation is how the partial USA government shut down for 35 days in Dec.2018-Jan 2019 over a few billion for a 'border wall' funding that Pres. Trump demanded, delayed Boeing from getting FAA/NTSB approval for the changes to the MCAS software for 737MAX series aircraft. As noted by others, the approval may not be until late April. That was likely long enough to perhaps cause the loss of the ET flight. So Pres. Trump and political leaders of both parties in our Congress have blood on their hands for this and must call for grounding 737MAX's until further notice to cover their butts.

Take off your tin foil hat chief. Are you telling me that Boeing would have done absolutely nothing in their office since the FAA wasn’t in their office ?
Sounds like CAAC and EASA are serial killers for not not stepping in while US GVt was shut down. Brexit ! UNITED Nations and FIFA should be given the death penalty for this!

(End sarcasm)
 
cdin844
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:19 pm

Sorry if this has already been discussed (hard to keep up!), but it seems like the EA flight had unstable vertical speed (which was shown in the FR24 data, I believe). Are there any theories as to what would cause that with respect to the MAX series planes?
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:21 pm

Decent article about what might be wrong with the MAX and financial implications for Boeing: https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/1006 ... ng-737-max
 
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keesje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:24 pm

CNN created a world map of countries banning 737-8 planes over the last few days.

Image

Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/11/africa/max-8-operations-roundup-intl/index.html

I think if in an hour or so Canada does so, pressure on the FAA, US Government and Industry will further grow. At some point even the most Industry supportive politician doesn't want to look stubborn & putting safety second if not on US soil.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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