RogerMurdock
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:08 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
I was thinking Marc Garneau told AC, WS and WG behind the scenes that they have 24 hours to arrange their fleets as they will ground the MAX today.
I do not think this announcement took either airline by surprise when it was announced.


I count at least 7 Canadian MAXs stuck in US airspace now. Doesn't seem to be arranged in advance.
 
max999
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:09 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Boeing's lobbyists are hard at work to ensure FAA doesn't follow - knowing how the things work in good 'ole USA.


Boeing might need to up their $15 million lobbying budget to influence the US government. $15 million is how much Boeing spent in influencing according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:10 pm

hoons90 wrote:
keesje wrote:
American, Southwest, United Airlines can no longer fly on Canadian destinations.

Satelite data seems to have switched the button for Canadian Authorities. Similarities between the LionAir & Ethiopian flight profiles, that apparently weren't available earlier.


Southwest doesn't even fly to Canada, and AA and UA don't use the MAX to any Canadian destination.


But say a UA MAX flying EWR to SFO could and likely would cross into Canada on a normal flight.
This will change the route somewhat.
Heia Norge!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:12 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
AA 191 crashed and killed over 200 -- yet DC10s weren;t grounded until 16 days later after it became known what caused the crash. The difference: people weren't screaming GROUND IT..


Who knows, maybe if they had grounded it after the Turkish crash there never would have an AA191. And in those 16 days, the flying public quite sensibly refused to fly in what became known as the "death crate 10." If Boeing does not wish the 737 MAX to develop a similar reputation, it should get ahead of the problem.

#GroundTheMax


More fact-free emotions overriding any actual reasoning. AA 191 had nothing to do with the doors.

GF
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:14 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why don't we hear about the recorders? Who has them right now? We need to finally know whether the two crashes are related or not?

Ethiopia is supposed to decide today which country will receive them for analysis. Apparently the United States is lobbying hard to be their choice.
 
Leslieville
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:15 pm

Canada grounds the Max 8 & 9

Canada grounds Boeing 737 Max 8, bans jet from airspace following fatal crash

Canada is grounding all its Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft and banning the jet from its airspace following the Ethiopian Airlines crash that killed all 157 people on board, including 18 Canadians.

"This safety notice restricts commercial passenger flights from any air operator, both domestic and foreign, of the Boeing 737 Max 8 and 9 aircraft from arriving, departing, or overflying Canadian airspace," Transport Minister Marc Garneau said today.

Canada had been one of the last holdouts on banning the the Max 8s. The U.K., European Union, Australia and other countries had moved already to bar the jet from their airspaces.

Garneau said the decision to issue the safety notice was made after his department received new data and will remain in place until further notice.

"My departmental officials continue to monitor the situation and I will not hesitate to take swift action should we discover any additional safety issues," he said.

More to come


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garnea ... -1.5054234

Edit: I didn't realize that this news had been shared on the preceding page.
Last edited by Leslieville on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:16 pm

AngMoh wrote:
idude wrote:

Australian Pilots come in defense of Boeing Max as safe and reliable.



He did not say that. He said he states the 737 is safe and Virgin Australia training is of a high standard. And both are facts. What he implies between the lines is that by the time Virgin Australia receives its first 737Max (they have none today), all issues will be addressed and the max will be as safe as the NG. And that is also a perfectly reasonable statement and one which I agree with. But today the NG is safer than the max.


:checkmark: One thing about this that is frustrating me a lot is the way that some media outlets are confusing the 737MAX with the rest of the Boeing 737 family and not clearly explaining the differences between models (IE a 737-800 is not a 737-8MAX). It seems to be creating quite a bit of confusion on social media in some cases. The 737NG is probably the greatest aircraft in history and it makes my blood boil when people confuse it with its accident prone big sister.
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sadiqutp
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:19 pm

flybynight wrote:
hoons90 wrote:
keesje wrote:
American, Southwest, United Airlines can no longer fly on Canadian destinations.

Satelite data seems to have switched the button for Canadian Authorities. Similarities between the LionAir & Ethiopian flight profiles, that apparently weren't available earlier.


Southwest doesn't even fly to Canada, and AA and UA don't use the MAX to any Canadian destination.


But say a UA MAX flying EWR to SFO could and likely would cross into Canada on a normal flight.
This will change the route somewhat.

It mostly happens to avoid head winds .. Given the large fleet AA, WN, UA have, swapping frames around is not an issue.
 
triple3driver
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:20 pm

ramprat320 wrote:
Given the social media hysteria based on speculation and fear I fail to understand why there are no calls for the worldwide 767 fleets to be grounded seeing as the cause of the Atlas Air accident is not yet known? It’s interesting how there is no patience in today’s “now” age (thanks to technology) ... no one is willing to wait for the facts and findings which will be revealed in due course. Calm and Logic is supplanted by pandemonium and speculation.


This is the first incident of a 767 in a long time, and the 767 is very much a proven type with no evidence to suggest a design flaw, unlike the 737 MAX.
If you can walk away from it intact, it was a good landing!
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:21 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
hongkongflyer wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:

If you had taken the time to read my post, you would have seen that I said:

It is easy to forget just how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. When you look at the first and second generation jet transport aircraft, their safety records were downright abysmal

My point was that 50 years ago, the 727 had 3 hull losses inside of 90 days and the fleet was never grounded - it was considered an acceptable loss. That type of thinking doesn’t hold water in 2019.


We are looking at the possible reasons for the crash, not only how many days in between.
Basically all 3 727 crash you mentioned were due to pilot error.
In addition, the UA227 one is short of runway during landing. UA389 and AA383 were happening during bad weather and lack of visibility and flow into terrain.

What about the crash of 737MAX?
Bad weather is not a contributing factors for both crash, and both crashed shortly after takeoff and most importantly,
both have similar flight pattern prior to the crash. Both crash are too similar to warrant a grounding for the safety of the public
before Boeing can prove at lease ET one is not related to the same and known problem of the Lion air's crash.

I am sure even 3 or more 737MAX crash in a row within a very short period with very different background of the accidents,
the regulators would not demand a grounding of the model.


You're totally missing my point, but whatever.


so please explain how those 707 & 727 accidents in a row can comparable to 737 MAX case
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:23 pm

flybynight wrote:
But say a UA MAX flying EWR to SFO could and likely would cross into Canada on a normal flight.
This will change the route somewhat.


Currently I don't believe the three US carriers send their MAXs anywhere near Canada. AA's are based out of MIA and also fly to the Caribbean. UA's are mostly the southern US and Hawaii. WN has few routes that will overfly Canada an none are on the MAX from what I see.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
AA 191 crashed and killed over 200 -- yet DC10s weren;t grounded until 16 days later after it became known what caused the crash. The difference: people weren't screaming GROUND IT..


Who knows, maybe if they had grounded it after the Turkish crash there never would have an AA191. And in those 16 days, the flying public quite sensibly refused to fly in what became known as the "death crate 10." If Boeing does not wish the 737 MAX to develop a similar reputation, it should get ahead of the problem.

#GroundTheMax


More fact-free emotions overriding any actual reasoning. AA 191 had nothing to do with the doors.

GF



That is a 100% correct.
AA 191 crashed in Chicago in ‘79. The Turkish DC10 crashes in’74 in France.
There was an incident with AA62 (I could have the flight number wrong) also in ‘74.
Commonality between AA62 and the Turkish flight pointed towards a cargo door that could
be closed but not properly latched without specific confirmation. In both cases the doors came off due to decompression.
AA62 was luck to receive less damage but the Turkish DC10 became crippled and crashed.
Fixes were implemented accordingly.
AA191 Was 5 years later and did not have commonality with the cargo door.
At this point, however, the reputation of the DC10 was certainly tarnished.
And the reason why we only see a few DC10’s and (more) MD11’s flying and all for cargo carriers.
Too bad since this is still a really cool plane and design to see at airports and in the skies.
Last edited by flybynight on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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zkojq
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:25 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
PK-LQP (JT610) would not have been considered airworthy in the US.

Right, but that's a red herring and you know it. Airspeed indicators and AOA indicators break, and when your system has a single point of failure....AF447 was airworthy at the time the flight pushed back. If the aircraft hadn't had pitot issues enroute, the crew wouldn't have had the opportunity to mishandle the situation.

RogerMurdock wrote:
That closes that hole in the cheese.

Right, but whenever a MAX does have unreliable airspeed, there's already a massive hole in the cheese.
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zkojq
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:28 pm

1ffb2002 wrote:
What if the plane was improperly configured for flight? The FO had 200 hours of flight experience. The plane seemed unable to climb, pointing possibly to non deployment of flaps. It is a possibility. Or this could be a terrorist act.

Easyjet has been hiring 200 hour FOs for 20+ years. How many of their flights have departed without the flaps deployed for takeoff? Same with Ryanair. Why are you so determined to believe that there is nothing wrong with the plane?

1ffb2002 wrote:
If this is the case, everyone is going to have much egg on their face.

I know right, don't you just hate it when people act with caution and prudence?

1ffb2002 wrote:
All I am saying is lets get some facts. Right now we have zero facts on ET. None. Nothing.

Absolute rubbish. We know it crashed during the departure phase. We know that one of the flight crew radioed that they were having unreliable airspeed and control problems. We know the aircraft made an almighty crater when it crashed into the earth (implying that it was in a nosedive). We know that it is exactly the same aircraft type as one which had a similar very serious accident last year.

1ffb2002 wrote:
The ET aircraft never achieved sufficient altitude to retract flaps. So what am I missing.

It has been mentioned multiple times that the aircraft crashed six minutes after departure.


cuban8 wrote:
sadiqutp wrote:
With india being the latest to ban Max, FlyDubai remains the only major operator flying the Max other than NA


Very strange to see FlyDubai and the GCAA not following Oman and instead continuing to operate as usual. Especially after the recent FZ981 crash, I would have thought they would be more cautious.

The chairman of the GCAA and the chairman of FlyDubai is the same person. Naturally he's going to be reluctant to ground his own planes.

Aesma wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
UK just grounded all MAX 8 aircraft. I really think this is a bit premature. What if the ET plane was improperly configured (e.g. flaps not deployed)? The FO was extremely junior. This is a possibility.


It reached 383kn at least (without being in a dive), at that speed you don't need flaps.

Well, at that speed if the flaps were extended, they won't be attached for very long.

bob75013 wrote:
At this point, we don't know the cause of the second crash (first either for that matter) and bad luck is not off the table as an explanation.

No, but we know that according to the flight crew's radio message, the symptoms (unreliable airspeed and flight control problems) are the same issue that lead to the first 737-8MAX crash...

zhiao wrote:
Yes, the safest air space in the world

Nope, that's Australia's.
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Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:29 pm

I’m surprised that the Vancouver to Palm Springs flight is not turning back. Unless it isn’t being allowed to.
 
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flybynight
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:31 pm

zkojq wrote:
AngMoh wrote:
idude wrote:

Australian Pilots come in defense of Boeing Max as safe and reliable.



He did not say that. He said he states the 737 is safe and Virgin Australia training is of a high standard. And both are facts. What he implies between the lines is that by the time Virgin Australia receives its first 737Max (they have none today), all issues will be addressed and the max will be as safe as the NG. And that is also a perfectly reasonable statement and one which I agree with. But today the NG is safer than the max.


:checkmark: One thing about this that is frustrating me a lot is the way that some media outlets are confusing the 737MAX with the rest of the Boeing 737 family and not clearly explaining the differences between models (IE a 737-800 is not a 737-8MAX). It seems to be creating quite a bit of confusion on social media in some cases. The 737NG is probably the greatest aircraft in history and it makes my blood boil when people confuse it with its accident prone big sister.


I haven’t heard that much.
Pretty much everyone I’ve heard talk about the MAX has identified the 737 as the MAX version and not NG or Classic
Last edited by flybynight on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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alberchico
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garnea ... -1.5054234

So now Canada.

So who's in the right here ? The FAA or all these countries ? Can so many of them be all overeating ???
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asuflyer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 pm

The FDR/CVR will be sent to Germany according to the AFP.
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:34 pm

So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:35 pm

zkojq wrote:
RogerMurdock wrote:
PK-LQP (JT610) would not have been considered airworthy in the US.

Right, but that's a red herring and you know it. Airspeed indicators and AOA indicators break, and when your system has a single point of failure....AF447 was airworthy at the time the flight pushed back. If the aircraft hadn't had pitot issues enroute, the crew wouldn't have had the opportunity to mishandle the situation.


It's not a red herring, and you know it. It tells us who we should be concerned about in regards to safety. It's impossible to make a plane completely foolproof. Laying the burden on the manufacturer to construct an airplane that can't be crashed is ridiculous. Are there areas to improve a plane? Absolutely. But it's still a fallible object at some point. It will stop doing what we want it to do.
Last edited by MSPNWA on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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flee
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:36 pm

Noshow wrote:
Why don't we hear about the recorders? Who has them right now? We need to finally know whether the two crashes are related or not?

Reuters report indicated that it may not be sent to the US but to somewhere nearer.

See: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garnea ... -1.5054234
 
boerje
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:36 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902


Are there Pax on board?
 
Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:37 pm

Which US airline will be the first to crack under the pressure?
 
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Veigar
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:37 pm

zkojq wrote:
RogerMurdock wrote:
PK-LQP (JT610) would not have been considered airworthy in the US.

Right, but that's a red herring and you know it. Airspeed indicators and AOA indicators break, and when your system has a single point of failure....AF447 was airworthy at the time the flight pushed back. If the aircraft hadn't had pitot issues enroute, the crew wouldn't have had the opportunity to mishandle the situation.

RogerMurdock wrote:
That closes that hole in the cheese.

Right, but whenever a MAX does have unreliable airspeed, there's already a massive hole in the cheese.


Now imagine if AF447 had no pilot error involved. Plane would have been OK.
 
rufusmi
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:38 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902


It’s a glitch. The only MAXes in the air right now are over North America.
 
Draken21fx
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:39 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902


Wrong data. Check on other flight monitoring sites and you will see that the plane used is most probably an NG instead of the scheduled Max.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:39 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902


Where are you seeing these? ET looks like 737-800 not MAX, also see none from TUI or in China or Norwegian, think you're mistaking the 800 for the MAX?
 
WIederling
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:41 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902

metal flown mixed up? i.e. timetable information shown and not the real thing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Benni228
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:42 pm

Does anyone have any insight into the fleet planning for Air Canada? They have the biggest MAX8 fleet as a proportion of their total NB fleet (21% I think someone wrote yesterday?). Other than pure cancellations, have they started parking/retiring A320's that they can pull back into service at short notice? Obviously some customers can be re-routed (eg YHZ-LHR via YYZ or YUL instead of non-stop).

I agree that Garneau probably told the Canadian airlines yesterday about the impending grounding, which would be why Sunwing (with only 4 frames) grounded first, followed by WestJet and Air Canada when the announcement was just made.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:44 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
AA 191 crashed and killed over 200 -- yet DC10s weren;t grounded until 16 days later after it became known what caused the crash. The difference: people weren't screaming GROUND IT..


Who knows, maybe if they had grounded it after the Turkish crash there never would have an AA191. And in those 16 days, the flying public quite sensibly refused to fly in what became known as the "death crate 10." If Boeing does not wish the 737 MAX to develop a similar reputation, it should get ahead of the problem.

#GroundTheMax


More fact-free emotions overriding any actual reasoning. AA 191 had nothing to do with the doors.

GF


I think it did have one thing to do with doors in a reverse manner. Because the FAA had a gentleman's agreement re the cargo door after in the AA DC10 incident in Buffalo. The non-implementation resulted in the Turkish crash in Paris killing 346 persons. They seem then to have then overreacted to AA 191 at ORD which was mainly a maintenance issue.
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sibibom
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:46 pm

Benni228 wrote:
Does anyone have any insight into the fleet planning for Air Canada? They have the biggest MAX8 fleet as a proportion of their total NB fleet (21% I think someone wrote yesterday?). Other than pure cancellations, have they started parking/retiring A320's that they can pull back into service at short notice? Obviously some customers can be re-routed (eg YHZ-LHR via YYZ or YUL instead of non-stop).

I agree that Garneau probably told the Canadian airlines yesterday about the impending grounding, which would be why Sunwing (with only 4 frames) grounded first, followed by WestJet and Air Canada when the announcement was just made.


Technically Spice Jet has 13-14 Max out of 49-50 B737s, that's around 27%
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Garneau said that they had new satellite based data come in this morning obtained from agreements with ATC agencies and that is what 'crossed the threshold' and led to his decision. Surely he isn't talking about FR24 but I'm assuming ADS-B or similar data.

Sent from my BBD100-2 using Tapatalk
 
B747forever
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:47 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
I was thinking Marc Garneau told AC, WS and WG behind the scenes that they have 24 hours to arrange their fleets as they will ground the MAX today.
I do not think this announcement took either airline by surprise when it was announced.


I count at least 7 Canadian MAXs stuck in US airspace now. Doesn't seem to be arranged in advance.


I am sure those will be allowed to either continue their trip and then return to Canada or divert back immediately.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:49 pm

B747forever wrote:
RogerMurdock wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
I was thinking Marc Garneau told AC, WS and WG behind the scenes that they have 24 hours to arrange their fleets as they will ground the MAX today.
I do not think this announcement took either airline by surprise when it was announced.


I count at least 7 Canadian MAXs stuck in US airspace now. Doesn't seem to be arranged in advance.


I am sure those will be allowed to either continue their trip and then return to Canada or divert back immediately.
He stated that they would be allowed to complete their flights.

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TWA902fly
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:51 pm

FCAFLYBOY wrote:
TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902


Where are you seeing these? ET looks like 737-800 not MAX, also see none from TUI or in China or Norwegian, think you're mistaking the 800 for the MAX?


These are on FlightAware, but checking on other websites (FlightRadar24) it does appear to be erroneous data.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
kipfilet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:51 pm

"Ethiopia will ask European experts to analyze black boxes from a crashed Boeing 737 Max jet in a sign U.S. authorities aren’t trusted to determine the cause of the disaster"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nub-to-u-s
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:55 pm

Magog wrote:
Which US airline will be the first to crack under the pressure?

My bet would be AA, but it’s possible that all 3 will be in contact with each other and decide to make the announcements at the same time.
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SurlyBonds
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:58 pm

kipfilet wrote:
"Ethiopia will ask European experts to analyze black boxes from a crashed Boeing 737 Max jet in a sign U.S. authorities aren’t trusted to determine the cause of the disaster"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nub-to-u-s


Well, the do-nothing FAA is beclowning itself, now that Canada has joined the worldwide grounding. And the Boeing CEO did call Trump directly to lobby against grounding. It is true that the NTSB would take the lead in reading the black boxes, and I trust the NTSB much more than the FAA at this point, because NTSB's institutional missions is to promote safety, whereas the FAA's institutional mission is to promote the industry. But you can see how subtle points like this might appear unpersuasive to the Ethiopians. If the US wanted to be trusted with this investigation, it needed to depoliticize the process from the beginning and get in front of the problem, instead of cheerleading for Boeing.

#GroundTheMax
 
Scarebus34
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:59 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
So despite these groundings, I currently see 3 Ethiopian 737 MAX 8's in flight, 6 in China (from 3 different airlines), 3 Norwegian, 4 Thomson, etc. What gives?

'902

Are you looking at FlightAware? Their data is wrong.
 
FCAFLYBOY
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:00 pm

kipfilet wrote:
"Ethiopia will ask European experts to analyze black boxes from a crashed Boeing 737 Max jet in a sign U.S. authorities aren’t trusted to determine the cause of the disaster"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nub-to-u-s


I'm sure that's a bit of a smack in the face for the NTSB, and indirectly, the FAA. If the AAIB already have staff on the ground, it may seem more likely that the UK will be chosen, especially with the direct air links and same time zone give or take 2 hours.

Hate to say this, but I'm pleased to read this. I'm not assuming for a second anything untoward would happen to the results if conducted in the US, but given the sensitivity of the situation, and the FAA/Boeing's reluctance to ground the MAX themselves, this seems a prudent move by the Ethiopian authorities, whom have made it clear they will not be used as a scapegoat. Good for them. Let's see what comes out fo this now in terms of data etc.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:00 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
Magog wrote:
Which US airline will be the first to crack under the pressure?

My bet would be AA, but it’s possible that all 3 will be in contact with each other and decide to make the announcements at the same time.


Either AA or UA. WN is too joined at the hip with the 737 at this point. (Not feelin' the LUV, folks.)

#GroundTheMax
 
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Channex757
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:00 pm

kipfilet wrote:
"Ethiopia will ask European experts to analyze black boxes from a crashed Boeing 737 Max jet in a sign U.S. authorities aren’t trusted to determine the cause of the disaster"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... nub-to-u-s

Nasty spin.

It could equally be that ET wants EASA, or Britain's AAIB in particular, to act as the honest broker in this investigation. EASA is not the certifying authority in this case but instead works on reciprocity. That way the FAA cannot be accused of taking sides or spinning the results to the benefit of Boeing and themselves.
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:01 pm

AC was so close to a NEO order when Boeing stepped in and resulted in a total NB strategy changed, first since the early 1990's. Perhaps Canada would have been better off with a more balanced NB fleet between the two major players, AC and WS, hence insulated the effect of a grounding such as this.
 
cuban8
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:02 pm

Regardless of the grounding is warranted or not, I believe some heads should roll at Boeing’s PR department. I’ve never seen such lousy communication for such a big company. Even the FAA is eerily quiet. That’s the main reason for the grounding in my opinion.

I’m also surprised of the risk the American MAX operators are taking. Even a tiny incident with a MAX at this time might turn into a shitstorm. I would be interested to know if the insurance companies are putting a premium for operating the MAX’es at this stage.
When business goes to hell, you get rid of three things. Your private jet, your yacht and your mistress..........and most importantly in that order.
~ Russian Billionaire ~
 
Derico
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:02 pm

Regardless of distance, I'm not surprised they are intending to let the Europeans look at the data. The FAA is certain nothing is wrong with the aircraft and believes everyone else sees it incorrectly. I'd rather have people open to finding problems do the forensics, even if they were somehow slightly bias (have no proof of this) .

The basis ascertaining scientific truth is skepticism, and when it comes to human lives and children's lives it must be so much more so.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:04 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Decent article about what might be wrong with the MAX and financial implications for Boeing: https://seekingalpha.com/instablog/1006 ... ng-737-max


Looks like Boeing cut corners to make big bucks on an old design.
Apparently, the B737 was designed as a low-clearance aircraft. In order to save money, Boeing simply attached more powerful engines to the body to create the "MAX" version. Since the old body wasn't designed to handle this added weight and thrust, the engines had to be moved forward and special software installed to make this Frankenstein-plane work.

And now the chickens come home to roost.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:10 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47553787

BBC article on the Canadian ban, and yet another incorrect photo!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
alan3
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:12 pm

AC say in a statement that they carry 9000-12000 pax per day on their MAX's, which is a huge impact that will affect their entire system. I wonder how they can go about reprotecting so many people?

Cancel the MAX flights, or do they have spare parked aircraft, or would they bring back Rouge aircraft instead? Any ideas on how long could this go for?
Last edited by alan3 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
B747forever
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:13 pm

Have AC come out with any info in regards to how they will handle the grounding of 1/5 of their NB-fleet?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
32andBelow
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:13 pm

alan3 wrote:
AC say in a statement that they carry 9000-12000 pax per day on their MAX's, which is a huge impact that will affect their entire system. I wonder how they can go about reprotecting so many people? Will this result in cancellations of the MAX flights or do they have spare parked aircraft, or would they cancel Rouge flights instead and bring back Rouge aircraft? Any ideas on how long could this go for?

Well they can most likely blame the regulator for the cancellations and not have to pay to reaccom passengers.

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