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kuhne
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:58 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:27 pm

I’m proud of the USA and Canada finally making the sensible decision.

I was going to take a United 737 max9 from Cancun to Houston with the fam and I was kinda worried.l, so I sent an email to United and they gave me the generic “we are monitoring the situation but if you want to change flights please call reservations etc.”

I’m glad someone forced their hand.

I have to say it gives me a huge boost in airline safety worldwide to see the whole planet ground the 737 max due to a simple suspicion. It’s the way it should be, after all, ridiculous redundancy and precautions is what has gotten us this far.

To all of those saying “they will be embarrassed when the cause of the accident comes out”

First of all, nowhere near as embarrassing as everyone finding out the accidents were exactly the same and having the USA being the only country who didn’t ground them.

And if it does happen to be something completely unrelated then we can still be proud of governments and companies putting passenger safety over profits for once, so no embarrassment anywhere.

I’ve always loved Boeing and bad stuff happens, I don’t dislike them one bit less for the two accidents. But the way Boeing and the FAA behaved after this whole thing due to a US made aircraft (imagine if it was two different Chinese or Russian planes, the ban would be immediate) makes me sadly state something I’ve never said in my 38 years
of living.

1. Boeing sucks
2. I don’t feel as safe in US airspace as I used to feel. I guess it’s my fault for putting us in a pedestal thinking that the FAA is superhuman and wouldn’t allow crap like this to happen but the way they refused to ground the planes until they had to be forced to do it by the rest of the world is embarrassing to say the least.
 
Kinetic
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:05 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:27 pm

((to have mentioned it: there are no apparent similarities between the crashes but happening while take-off. Other than that data shows different scenarios, also regarding systems being activated or deactivated - like MCAS.
 
Kinetic
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:05 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:30 pm

Both, however, show high horizontal speed (~300 kn) and barely none vertical speed, around 50fm. This pattern I have seen today in the US by a MAX during a steep turn.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:31 pm

Only one WN 737 MAX 8 in the air at the moment according to FR24, WN2569, OAK-EWR, flying over Pennsylvania.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
iamtom
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 5:36 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:35 pm

denkcflyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
denkcflyer wrote:

Waiting to see what AA says in a statement, if anything.

I appreciated the statement that United made. Straight and to the point, and owning up to the fact that this was a decision made by the FAA they are complying with.

Whether or not the max is unfit or unsafe to fly, we don’t have the answers yet. I just find it in poor taste on Southwest’s end to continue to blindly claim confidence in the aircraft despite the entire world grounding it. You can tell it was an announcement made through gritted teeth.

And I’m an avid Southwest flyer, so not hating them as an airline, but it is disheartening to see their response to this.


How would you like to be accused of something without any evidence to support such an accusation? The FDR and CVR haven't even been analyzed yet. Southwest is one of the safest airlines in the world. Do you really think they would knowingly put their passengers and employees at risk?


Clearly, there is evidence (that the general public is not aware of yet) to support the claim if the aircraft is now grounded worldwide.


Boeing did a couple of test flights yesterday at Moses Lake as flight BOE692. It was Renton to Moses lake and they did 2 touch and goes before heading back. You can search it it in FR24.

I couldn’t speculate on the erratic airspeed data as I can only assume these are trained test pilots trying to recreate issues or pushing the flight envelopes, so whatever they were doing is likely meaningful.

Also couldn’t speculate if any findings on these flights influenced the grounding decision.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13848
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:37 pm

Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


Well that would be a great way to keep your customers, right? Seems some Boeing fans have forgotten the whole C-series debacle.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
B747forever
Posts: 13848
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:40 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
Only one WN 737 MAX 8 in the air at the moment according to FR24, WN2569, OAK-EWR, flying over Pennsylvania.


Seems that it will be the last commercial flight on the MAX worldwide.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2638
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:40 pm

Interesting, at the close of trade Boeing's recent losses seem to have been recovered. That may not last
all that long, until more answers technically, and questions about delays and compensation for existing
operators are figured out. But it does seem to indicate some people feel they'll recover quickly. Some
people appear to have made a bit of cash out of this if they sell out now.
 
Kinetic
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:40 pm

iamtom wrote:
denkcflyer wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

How would you like to be accused of something without any evidence to support such an accusation? The FDR and CVR haven't even been analyzed yet. Southwest is one of the safest airlines in the world. Do you really think they would knowingly put their passengers and employees at risk?


Clearly, there is evidence (that the general public is not aware of yet) to support the claim if the aircraft is now grounded worldwide.


Boeing did a couple of test flights yesterday at Moses Lake as flight BOE692. It was Renton to Moses lake and they did 2 touch and goes before heading back. You can search it it in FR24.

I couldn’t speculate on the erratic airspeed data as I can only assume these are trained test pilots trying to recreate issues or pushing the flight envelopes, so whatever they were doing is likely meaningful.

Also couldn’t speculate if any findings on these flights influenced the grounding decision.


I doubt highly, that results of such tests would have lead to the ban we see.
Boeing has lots of data on the issue (MCAS), it seems, and it also has at least a practical solution, turning it off.
But again, we, and possibly Boeing, don't know what has caused the accidents. There is simply no sufficient data.
 
cpd
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Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:42 pm

B747forever wrote:
Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


Well that would be a great way to keep your customers, right? Seems some Boeing fans have forgotten the whole C-series debacle.


Echoing your thoughts too, it would be an absolute disaster from a PR perspective and any other angle you can think of.

If the media reports are right, this final step is based on something they've found. That sounds ominous.
 
Kinetic
Posts: 59
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 pm

cpd wrote:
B747forever wrote:
Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


Well that would be a great way to keep your customers, right? Seems some Boeing fans have forgotten the whole C-series debacle.


Echoing your thoughts too, it would be an absolute disaster from a PR perspective and any other angle you can think of.

If the media reports are right, this final step is based on something they've found. That sounds ominous.


I have to disagree once again. The two accidents of the same newly introduced type should be enough for a ban. No additional data needed.
I just wonder, if north-american authorities might have revised because of new data.
 
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remcor
Posts: 374
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:47 pm

Great informed article from Air Facts here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/can ... st-pilots/

"...What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.

What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.

The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:49 pm

kuhne wrote:
I’m proud of the USA and Canada finally making the sensible decision.

I was going to take a United 737 max9 from Cancun to Houston with the fam and I was kinda worried.l, so I sent an email to United and they gave me the generic “we are monitoring the situation but if you want to change flights please call reservations etc.”

I’m glad someone forced their hand.

I have to say it gives me a huge boost in airline safety worldwide to see the whole planet ground the 737 max due to a simple suspicion. It’s the way it should be, after all, ridiculous redundancy and precautions is what has gotten us this far.

To all of those saying “they will be embarrassed when the cause of the accident comes out”

First of all, nowhere near as embarrassing as everyone finding out the accidents were exactly the same and having the USA being the only country who didn’t ground them.

And if it does happen to be something completely unrelated then we can still be proud of governments and companies putting passenger safety over profits for once, so no embarrassment anywhere.

I’ve always loved Boeing and bad stuff happens, I don’t dislike them one bit less for the two accidents. But the way Boeing and the FAA behaved after this whole thing due to a US made aircraft (imagine if it was two different Chinese or Russian planes, the ban would be immediate) makes me sadly state something I’ve never said in my 38 years
of living.

1. Boeing sucks
2. I don’t feel as safe in US airspace as I used to feel. I guess it’s my fault for putting us in a pedestal thinking that the FAA is superhuman and wouldn’t allow crap like this to happen but the way they refused to ground the planes until they had to be forced to do it by the rest of the world is embarrassing to say the least.


It is safe to say that Boeing have MAXed out on their luck right now. Having said that; they will bounce back; in fact i feel safer now being reassured that safety is everybody's top priority and Boeing + FAA is looking into this to get it fixed no matter what corporate & wall street pressures were there to keep the MAX flying.
 
cpd
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:50 pm

Kinetic wrote:
cpd wrote:
B747forever wrote:

Well that would be a great way to keep your customers, right? Seems some Boeing fans have forgotten the whole C-series debacle.


Echoing your thoughts too, it would be an absolute disaster from a PR perspective and any other angle you can think of.

If the media reports are right, this final step is based on something they've found. That sounds ominous.


I have to disagree once again. The two accidents of the same newly introduced type should be enough for a ban. No additional data needed.
I just wonder, if north-american authorities might have revised because of new data.


I think we are agreeing and not disagreeing. I think they've found something as well.
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:51 pm

B747forever wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Only one WN 737 MAX 8 in the air at the moment according to FR24, WN2569, OAK-EWR, flying over Pennsylvania.


Seems that it will be the last commercial flight on the MAX worldwide.

AC7056, LAX-YUL, just took off minutes ago, but it may not have passengers given the high flight number.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
B747forever
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:53 pm

dampfnudel wrote:
B747forever wrote:
dampfnudel wrote:
Only one WN 737 MAX 8 in the air at the moment according to FR24, WN2569, OAK-EWR, flying over Pennsylvania.


Seems that it will be the last commercial flight on the MAX worldwide.

AC7056, LAX-YUL, just took off minutes ago, but it may not have passengers given the high flight number.


Ferry flight back to base. No commercial MAX ops are allowed anymore.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
dc10lover
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:53 pm

Was this airborne DURING the grounding?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KPHX/KPDX
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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TPX101
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:55 pm

Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.

Worldwide regulators have a duty to ensure safety above all else for the civilians that uses the aircrafts. These regulators also decides what aircrafts are permitted in their airspace. Wouldn’t want a situation that all Boeing aircrafts are denied would they?
 
B747forever
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:56 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Was this airborne DURING the grounding?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KPHX/KPDX


Flightaware sometimes show the wrong type.

According to flightradar24 the flight was operated by N8523W, a regular 737-800W.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
dampfnudel
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:00 pm

dc10lover wrote:
Was this airborne DURING the grounding?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA ... /KPHX/KPDX

All MAX 8 aircraft in the air when the grounding was announced were allowed to fly on to their destinations. WN2569, OAK-EWR, a 737 MAX 8, is a couple of minutes from landing at EWR as I type this.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

On what basis?
Do we have any conclusive date or statement from investigators that the plane was at fault?


FAA’s statement.


Did you read it?
Where's the FACT that states the plane was at fault?
And for the SJW's out there I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm just asking about this particular confident statement from new a.net member.


You keep mentioning "SJW's." Do you know what that means lol?

On topic, of course DY is gonna demand compensation given their precarious finances and the fact that this wiped out their TATL NB flights (and they're using 787s on DUB-SWF to compensate). Whether Boeing will pay them anything or not will definitely depend on what is uncovered by the investigation but I have a feeling given DY's loyalty (minus the A321s they ordered that they won't be flying themselves), Boeing won't just tell them to shove it.
 
juliuswong
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:10 pm

Wow! The dawn is just breaking here in most parts of Asia, what just happened to our Canadians and US friends?

This is second time Boeing faces global grounding for their product. I think it is everyone's hope B77X EIS will be smooth. How are airlines going to make up for the capacity loss?

MI has cancelled mutiple M8 flight in next few days to KUL consolidating 3 flight to single WB service.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Scarebus34
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:15 pm

citationjet wrote:
Only 11 Max 8's currently in flight in North America.
https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

FlightAware data is bad. Stop using it. It will show flights that are scheduled as MAX aircraft still operating when in fact they are not.
 
many321
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 pm

juliuswong wrote:
Wow! The dawn is just breaking here in most parts of Asia, what just happened to our Canadians and US friends?

This is second time Boeing faces global grounding for their product. I think it is everyone's hope B77X EIS will be smooth.


That's what I'm thinking at the moment. I hope the 777x doesn't reveal any nasty little surprises like its occurring with the MAX.
 
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TWA302
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:33 pm

Scarebus34 wrote:
citationjet wrote:
Only 11 Max 8's currently in flight in North America.
https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

FlightAware data is bad. Stop using it. It will show flights that are scheduled as MAX aircraft still operating when in fact they are not.


Yeah, FR24 has more accurate info. Currently shows,
2 AC, 2 WS and 1 "unknown" from MCO-YYC or YEG
 
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scbriml
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:41 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
If this was an Airbus...


It wasn't an Airbus it was two brand new 737MAX. Oh, and very nearly 350 bodies.

PixelPilot wrote:
What information?
So far extra GPS data but that's not conclusive in any way. Just similarities - climb anomalies. Just one of the pieces. That's of course according to the statement.


Did you read the FAA's statement?

On March 13, 2019, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and JT610 accidents that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed. Accordingly, the Acting Administrator is ordering all Boeing 73 7 MAX airplanes to be grounded pending further investigation.

Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


No chance. Even less so after the FAA grounded them as well.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:42 pm

remcor wrote:
Great informed article from Air Facts here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/can ... st-pilots/

"...What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.

What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.

The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."


Excellent piece. So done with the uninformed panic and supposition generated by this whole thing.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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Erebus
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:42 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Well, the do-nothing FAA is beclowning itself, now that Canada has joined the worldwide grounding. And the Boeing CEO did call Trump directly to lobby against grounding. It is true that the NTSB would take the lead in reading the black boxes, and I trust the NTSB much more than the FAA at this point, because NTSB's institutional missions is to promote safety, whereas the FAA's institutional mission is to promote the industry. But you can see how subtle points like this might appear unpersuasive to the Ethiopians. If the US wanted to be trusted with this investigation, it needed to depoliticize the process from the beginning and get in front of the problem, instead of cheerleading for Boeing.

#GroundTheMax


I am glad you brought up the NTSB. I chose to listen to Greg Feith who was a member of the NYSB. I was going to post something but I will defer to his words from his facebook page which says it better than I can.

It is sad to hear some of the “junior investigator” talking heads make a storyline out of factoids or no facts about the 737 MAX. They embellish their credentials to sound smart when in fact they have no clue and say things about analyzing data that doesn’t exist....

A good friend of mine who is a former airline captain and flight safety professional ant be the following:

“The VAST majority of the inane comments and knee jerk industry reactions on FB and AV Herald are based on no valid nor substantiated information regarding the MAX aircraft.

However, NO one is talking about the pilots, nor the airlines involved, nor the training, nor the experience of the pilots. It IS WELL BEYOND time that these direct factors are understood, investigated and considered a possible contributor to the two distinct MAX accidents.

The accident information in news articles dated 11/28/2018 indicated that the previous crew at Lion Air had experienced the MCAS issue but CORRECTLY dealt with it by disconnecting the stab trim cutouts - as expected in the NNC (non-normal checklist) yet the accident crew could not figure it out. Why the plane was dispatched in an unairworthy condition needs to be addressed and why one crew did and the accident crew did not figure it out the system issues needs to be explored because the deficiencies with the accident flight crew can be traced back to inadequate or deficient training and like suspect pilot qualifications!”

I agree with the premise of his comments and would add that training issues should be a focal point of the Ethiopian MAX and Atlas Air accidents. Automation confusion and automation dependence are key factors that must be included in all three of the recent accidents.


I'm glad you shared this commentary from an NTSB member. It perfectly validates Ethiopia's request to have someone other than the NTSB to carry out the FDR/CVR investigation.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:46 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
If this was an Airbus not one country or airline would have acted the way they did in this case.


If this was an Airbus, would the FAA have continued to keep silent the way they did?
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:02 am

Erebus wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
If this was an Airbus not one country or airline would have acted the way they did in this case.


If this was an Airbus, would the FAA have continued to keep silent the way they did?


Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into. It’s why aviation is the safest form of transportation in the world.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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B747forever
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:03 am

DL717 wrote:
Erebus wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
If this was an Airbus not one country or airline would have acted the way they did in this case.


If this was an Airbus, would the FAA have continued to keep silent the way they did?


Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into.


Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:05 am

B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Erebus wrote:

If this was an Airbus, would the FAA have continued to keep silent the way they did?


Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into.


Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 am

remcor wrote:
Great informed article from Air Facts here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/can ... st-pilots/

"...What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.

What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.

The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."


This kind of puff pieces will cause more damage than good. Seriously, blaming human pilots.
All posts are just opinions.
 
B747forever
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 am

DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into.


Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
PixelPilot
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 am

scbriml wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
If this was an Airbus...


It wasn't an Airbus it was two brand new 737MAX. Oh, and very nearly 350 bodies.

PixelPilot wrote:
What information?
So far extra GPS data but that's not conclusive in any way. Just similarities - climb anomalies. Just one of the pieces. That's of course according to the statement.


Did you read the FAA's statement?

On March 13, 2019, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between the ET302 and JT610 accidents that warrant further investigation of the possibility of a shared cause for the two incidents that needs to be better understood and addressed. Accordingly, the Acting Administrator is ordering all Boeing 73 7 MAX airplanes to be grounded pending further investigation.

Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


No chance. Even less so after the FAA grounded them as well.


Yeah and it is pretty clear that all they found is a "possibility of a shared cause" but no actual undeniable fact about it.
Again, till the boxes are well analyzed everything is fair game including grounding on a basis of a possibility which is where we are at this point.
 
Aviation737
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:16 am

I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased
 
jetmechanicdave
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:21 am

Scarebus34 wrote:
citationjet wrote:
Only 11 Max 8's currently in flight in North America.
https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

FlightAware data is bad. Stop using it. It will show flights that are scheduled as MAX aircraft still operating when in fact they are not.


They are ferrying some. Any 8000 series flight numbers in the US are ferry flights.
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32andBelow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:28 am

Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 am

B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:

Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.


The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 am

scbriml wrote:
It wasn't an Airbus it was two brand new 737MAX. Oh, and very nearly 350 bodies.


The first:1) being flown by poorly trained, sub-par pilots that were not able to handle a situation that other pilots have handled; 2) involving an aircraft, operated by one of the most accident prone airlines in the world, that should not have been flying at all due to persisting problems that reoccurred on the penultimate flight.

The JT610 crash should never have been allowed to happen; that aircraft should have been on the ground until it was fixed.

As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?
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B747forever
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:31 am

32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


This grounding isn't because of Lion Air. It is due to the 2nd MAX crash in a very short time period with two different carriers. According to data that has been obtained, the profiles of the crashes are similar which warrants the grounding.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:32 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
remcor wrote:
Great informed article from Air Facts here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/can ... st-pilots/

"...What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.

What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.

The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."


This kind of puff pieces will cause more damage than good. Seriously, blaming human pilots.


He’s actually talking about aircraft architecture design around the pilot.
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B747forever
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:34 am

DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:

No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.


The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.


Again, it doesn't matter. You can't compare two completely different modes of transportation/systems that are held to two different types of standards in regards to safety and regulations. If both car transportation and aviation were held to the same standards then I would buy your argument.
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Magog
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:36 am

DL717 wrote:

The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

I can choose which aircraft I fly on. I can’t choose to avoid roadway travel.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:37 am

B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:

I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.


The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.


Again, it doesn't matter. You can't compare two completely different modes of transportation/systems that are held to two different types of standards in regards to safety and regulations. If both car transportation and aviation were held to the same standards then I would buy your argument.


Incident counts don’t matter in safety, cause and probability of occruance does.
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Bradin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:37 am

Given that there's data to warrant a grounding now, it's good that it's happening. I don't envy Boeing's position because it is a damned if you do and damned if you don't type situation.

No doubt Boeing engineers are going over every scrap of data possible to identify the root cause and deliver a solution.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:37 am

DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into.


Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them?


The second crash would justify the grounding of the new car to plenty on here, even if the first car was being driven with defects instead of being in the workshop... :roll:
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:38 am

Magog wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

I can choose which aircraft I fly on. I can’t choose to avoid roadway travel.


You can if you have the means not to care about price.
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tcaeyx
Posts: 143
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:40 am

32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:43 am

Magog wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

I can choose which aircraft I fly on. I can’t choose to avoid roadway travel.


You can choose what car you ride in, what route / roads you take, the way you drive...
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