juliuswong
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:44 am

Guys, the grounding has happened, worldwide, doesn't matter by who. We can put that to rest. Stop turning the thread into A V B, , or what if what if that, or we risk this thread being locked....... I think we should focus our attention.to what Boeing should do to salvage the situation (for example the possible short term trouble shooting while waiting for JT610 and ET302 report to be ready). There have been 5 to 6 different threads created aftermath of ET302 crash, possible to consolidate all information here?
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:48 am

tcaeyx wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.


Did Lion Air have reported problems from crews and passengers on previous flights in said aircraft. Yes or No?

The answer is yes, yet nothing was done. Would Lion Air have crashed if that plane had been taken out of service? I suppose we’ll never know. Blame Boeing.
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32andBelow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:50 am

DL717 wrote:
tcaeyx wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.


Did Lion Air have reported problems from crews and passengers on previous flights in said aircraft. Yes or No?

The answer is yes, yet nothing was done. Would Lion Air have crashed if that plane had been taken out of service? I suppose we’ll never know. Blame Boeing.

Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:50 am

Kinetic wrote:
zeke wrote:
Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


What could Boeing sue for worldwide ?

The only Boeing operations that would be impacted by the order would be post production test flights. Boeing does not operate an airline.[/quo

If an international or national regulator is grounding a type, it is ought to be doing so on reasons given at the point of such decision. If this is not the case, - indeed including retrospection -, there is a sound basis for a law suit.

This won't be the case here, as far as we see.

Depends on juristriction. In Australia you cannot sue the legerslated safety authority [in any industry] for a safety decision issued in the public interest. I dare say that would be the case in most countries.

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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:51 am

32andBelow wrote:
DL717 wrote:
tcaeyx wrote:

Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.


Did Lion Air have reported problems from crews and passengers on previous flights in said aircraft. Yes or No?

The answer is yes, yet nothing was done. Would Lion Air have crashed if that plane had been taken out of service? I suppose we’ll never know. Blame Boeing.

Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.


Indeed. That’s one scary ass track record.

FWIW. Safety experts have said for years that aircraft incidents will rise over time. Not because of net operations and not in developed world. That theory has been proven true.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:54 am

As with most companies, Boeing will never learn anyway. They will continue to $ell airplanes to whoever wants them, and can buy them, regardless of the risk of potential brand damage / co$t the actions of that customer might cause down the track... Boeing should refer Lion Air to a ship builder in the future...
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D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 am

DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:

No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.


The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

So, we should just stop trying to make things safer the instant it’s safer than cars?

These are not persuasive arguments.
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:58 am

D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:

I dont get this comparison with other modes of transportation. Each and every mode of transportation or even in regards to any type of system is held to different standards of safety and regulations. You can't compare the regulations between aviation and car transportation. If you want to compare the number of deaths, maybe we should then make it as hard to obtain a driver license as it is to get a pilot license.


The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

So, we should just stop trying to make things safer the instant it’s safer than cars?

These are not persuasive arguments.


That’s not the point I’m making. Training the operator makes every form of transportation safer.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:01 am

777Jet wrote:
Magog wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

I can choose which aircraft I fly on. I can’t choose to avoid roadway travel.


You can choose what car you ride in, what route / roads you take, the way you drive...

The bigger problem imo is that when a plane comes down, it sometimes comes down on people who didn’t purchase air tickets.

I live 3 minutes flying from the airport. There’s still a lot of population 6 minutes flying from my local airport. There is no safe place to crash a plane six minutes flying from my airport that doesn’t have a catastrophic potential for ground casualties. So, yeah, forget safety compared to driving. to be frank, I want the planes I’m not flying on to be as safe as possible.
 
D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:02 am

DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:

The most dangerous part of flying is getting to the airport. Maybe we should make it harder for people to get a driver license.

So, we should just stop trying to make things safer the instant it’s safer than cars?

These are not persuasive arguments.


That’s not the point I’m making. Training the operator makes every form of transportation safer.

Your argument doesn’t support the conclusion you’re trying to draw.
 
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777Jet
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:05 am

D L X wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Magog wrote:
I can choose which aircraft I fly on. I can’t choose to avoid roadway travel.


You can choose what car you ride in, what route / roads you take, the way you drive...

The bigger problem imo is that when a plane comes down, it sometimes comes down on people who didn’t purchase air tickets.

I live 3 minutes flying from the airport. There’s still a lot of population 6 minutes flying from my local airport. There is no safe place to crash a plane six minutes flying from my airport that doesn’t have a catastrophic potential for ground casualties. So, yeah, forget safety compared to driving. to be frank, I want the planes I’m not flying on to be as safe as possible.


And cars, trucks and buses never end up through the front of somebody's home after a tired, drunk, drugged or foolish driver loses control???

D L X wrote:
I want the planes I’m not flying on to be as safe as possible.


Then pay for it.
Last edited by 777Jet on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:06 am

D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:
So, we should just stop trying to make things safer the instant it’s safer than cars?

These are not persuasive arguments.


That’s not the point I’m making. Training the operator makes every form of transportation safer.

Your argument doesn’t support the conclusion you’re trying to draw.


In the context of this incident and the Lion Air incident, it’s absolutely valid. Machines break. Solid training in handling such a situation absolutely matters.
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acechip
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:12 am

DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Keep silent? Are you suggesting some sort of conspiracy? People just need to stop with this nonsense. Regulators don’t pick favorites. I worked around them my entire career. The FAA inspectors in all facets of aviation are some of the most hyper critical bastards I’ve ever run into.


Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


Quite possible that he gave Boeing /FAA to own up with his "Einstein" message and a phone call a few hours earlier. Failing which, he took the matter in his own hands.
 
gregpodpl
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:15 am

remcor wrote:
Great informed article from Air Facts here:
https://airfactsjournal.com/2019/03/can ... st-pilots/
"...What’s critical to the current, mostly uninformed discussion is that the 737 MAX system is not triply redundant. In other words, it can be expected to fail more frequently than one in a billion flights, which is the certification standard for flight critical systems and structures.
What Boeing is doing is using the age-old concept of using the human pilots as a critical element of the system. Before fly-by-wire (FBW) came along, nearly all critical systems in all sizes of airplanes counted on the pilot to be a crucial part of the system operation.
The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."

That is a good article, thanks.
Reminded me that someone wrote here (or in another thread) like yesterday that MAX is all new inside, and just got the same shape as old 737. Right...
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:16 am

acechip wrote:
DL717 wrote:
B747forever wrote:

Yet they needed an order from Trump before grounding the MAX...


No, they needed to review information. If someone crashes a new car, do you stop everyone who owns one from driving them? And don’t give me the yeah, but 300 people are dead routine.

The order came from the FAA anyway. Trump is just flatulating.


Quite possible that he gave Boeing /FAA to own up with his "Einstein" message and a phone call a few hours earlier. Failing which, he took the matter in his own hands.


That must be why the FAA written order came out about 5 minutes later. Man those typists and reviewers are fast.
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JHwk
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:17 am

bspc wrote:
indcwby wrote:
Quick question, with the grounding of MAX aircraft, what impacts are there for aircraft currently on Boeing's production line?


None. Because Boeing can still build them and also fly them as test Flights. Just operators aren't allowed to fly them.


Will Boeing continue production as-is, or cut shifts to slow down the production of undeliverable aircraft? I imagine it takes some time to slow things through the supply chain? I can’t imagine a full halt to production.

As for solutions to the current issue, are regulators likely to require triple-redundancy be retrofit to the Max?
 
32andBelow
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:17 am

JHwk wrote:
bspc wrote:
indcwby wrote:
Quick question, with the grounding of MAX aircraft, what impacts are there for aircraft currently on Boeing's production line?


None. Because Boeing can still build them and also fly them as test Flights. Just operators aren't allowed to fly them.


Will Boeing continue production as-is, or cut shifts to slow down the production of undeliverable aircraft? I imagine it takes some time to slow things through the supply chain? I can’t imagine a full halt to production.

As for solutions to the current issue, are regulators likely to require triple-redundancy be retrofit to the Max?

Why would they slow? Of course they won’t slow
 
JJT
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 am

Hi all,

My apologies if this has been covered already....but would like to tap into the expert knowledge here for a couple of questions:

1) If, and that’s a big IF, as people have alluded to, the cause of the recent crashes MAY possibly be related to a software issue as being the catalyst of things.....can anyone advise if the Boeing 737MAX and the Boeing 737-800ERX utilise the same software.

2) Given that the Boeing P8 Poseidon is based off the 800ERX, do you think there will be any likely impact on P8 production?

I am acutely aware that the investigations into the accidents are in very early stages, so I understand that software may not even be established as the initial culprit by the time the investigation finishes up...so please take that on board.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Cheers
 
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DL717
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 am

JHwk wrote:
bspc wrote:
indcwby wrote:
Quick question, with the grounding of MAX aircraft, what impacts are there for aircraft currently on Boeing's production line?


None. Because Boeing can still build them and also fly them as test Flights. Just operators aren't allowed to fly them.


Will Boeing continue production as-is, or cut shifts to slow down the production of undeliverable aircraft? I imagine it takes some time to slow things through the supply chain? I can’t imagine a full halt to production.

As for solutions to the current issue, are regulators likely to require triple-redundancy be retrofit to the Max?


Depends if they know it can be a quick fix or not.
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scbriml
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:18 am

PixelPilot wrote:
Yeah and it is pretty clear that all they found is a "possibility of a shared cause" but no actual undeniable fact about it.


Accepting the diplomatic language used, is that not enough for you? Apparently it was enough to convince the FAA to ground the 737MAX.

32andBelow wrote:
So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.


"incidents"? 350 dead people don't matter because they're mainly from the developing world? The World's aviation authorities disagree with you.

777Jet wrote:
As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?


If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:20 am

JJT wrote:
Hi all,

My apologies if this has been covered already....but would like to tap into the expert knowledge here for a couple of questions:

1) If, and that’s a big IF, as people have alluded to, the cause of the recent crashes MAY possibly be related to a software issue as being the catalyst of things.....can anyone advise if the Boeing 737MAX and the Boeing 737-800ERX utilise the same software.

2) Given that the Boeing P8 Poseidon is based off the 800ERX, do you think there will be any likely impact on P8 production?

I am acutely aware that the investigations into the accidents are in very early stages, so I understand that software may not even be established as the initial culprit by the time the investigation finishes up...so please take that on board.

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Cheers


If I’m not mistaken those are NGs.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:20 am

scbriml wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Yeah and it is pretty clear that all they found is a "possibility of a shared cause" but no actual undeniable fact about it.


Accepting the diplomatic language used, is that not enough for you? Apparently it was enough to convince the FAA to ground the 737MAX.

32andBelow wrote:
So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.


"incidents"? 350 dead people don't matter because they're mainly from the developing world? The World's aviation authorities disagree with you.

777Jet wrote:
As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?


If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.


Yes, they are called incidents. From the beginning of aviation time. The focus is on probable cause not blame.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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acechip
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 am

Its not about the official process- North America was beginning to appear stubborn in this whole matter, and losing the perception battle. Even if it was a decision based on scientific data, it appears too convenient that you suddenly have new evidence to completely reverse your stance. The rest of the world interpreted and acted on "Abundance of precaution" in the right spirit. Technically, you can fly a twin-engine plane all the way to the destination with single engine out. The engine reliability data may prove it too. But as a precaution, you divert to the nearest airport.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:25 am

acechip wrote:
Its not about the official process- North America was beginning to appear stubborn in this whole matter, and losing the perception battle. Even if it was a decision based on scientific data, it appears too convenient that you suddenly have new evidence to completely reverse your stance. The rest of the world interpreted and acted on "Abundance of precaution" in the right spirit. Technically, you can fly a twin-engine plane all the way to the destination with single engine out. The engine reliability data may prove it too. But as a precaution, you divert to the nearest airport.


You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.
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32andBelow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:26 am

acechip wrote:
Its not about the official process- North America was beginning to appear stubborn in this whole matter, and losing the perception battle. Even if it was a decision based on scientific data, it appears too convenient that you suddenly have new evidence to completely reverse your stance. The rest of the world interpreted and acted on "Abundance of precaution" in the right spirit. Technically, you can fly a twin-engine plane all the way to the destination with single engine out. The engine reliability data may prove it too. But as a precaution, you divert to the nearest airport.

No it was because the public was whining too loud
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:28 am

32andBelow wrote:
acechip wrote:
Its not about the official process- North America was beginning to appear stubborn in this whole matter, and losing the perception battle. Even if it was a decision based on scientific data, it appears too convenient that you suddenly have new evidence to completely reverse your stance. The rest of the world interpreted and acted on "Abundance of precaution" in the right spirit. Technically, you can fly a twin-engine plane all the way to the destination with single engine out. The engine reliability data may prove it too. But as a precaution, you divert to the nearest airport.

No it was because the public was whining too loud


Imagine if Twitter was around 40-50 years ago. No one would be flying today.
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Magog
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:29 am

There seem to be some people who are very disappointed over the world-wide grounding.

Well... it’s happened. Experts all over the globe thought that it was proper. Given the universality of these actions, I am comfortable deferring to their expertise.
 
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:32 am

DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Since the entire fleet has been grounded all over the world, you’ve made a very compelling argument that there is sufficient data to back up the grounding.
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 am

So finally they admit that two crash are highly similar and willing to ground the unsafe 737MAX.
Sham to FAA and those airlines in USA and Canada, being the last to ground the planes worldwide and claimed that they value the safety as 1st priority.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:34 am

People will argue for another 100 pages. The fact is 2 planes are gone, 100s of lives lost. Something is wrong. So 100K hours logged by North Americans carriers.....so???? How many aircraft of this type need to crash before some stop with all of the, yeah.... smh.
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kotoka
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 am

DL717 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Yeah and it is pretty clear that all they found is a "possibility of a shared cause" but no actual undeniable fact about it.


Accepting the diplomatic language used, is that not enough for you? Apparently it was enough to convince the FAA to ground the 737MAX.

32andBelow wrote:
So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.


"incidents"? 350 dead people don't matter because they're mainly from the developing world? The World's aviation authorities disagree with you.

777Jet wrote:
As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?


If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.


Yes, they are called incidents. From the beginning of aviation time. The focus is on probable cause not blame.


Accidents, not incidents. ET may be in the developing world but has had an excellent safety record over the last 55 years of operation.
 
D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:39 am

DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:

That’s not the point I’m making. Training the operator makes every form of transportation safer.

Your argument doesn’t support the conclusion you’re trying to draw.


In the context of this incident and the Lion Air incident, it’s absolutely valid. Machines break. Solid training in handling such a situation absolutely matters.

And yet, that conclusion has nothing at all to do with driving statistics. Help me out. What am I missing?
 
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:45 am

scbriml wrote:
777Jet wrote:
As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?


If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.


My question specifically said "just one full one was lost by a quality airline".

You have mentioned "number of bodies" several times as a reason for a grounding; just one lost full A380 would easily surpass the 350 mark.

So, why change your answer to two?

Yes, two Max8's have crashed, but the first Max8 that crashed should not have been flying at the time, and was being flown by poorly trained sub-par pilots that could not handle a situation other pilots could handle, yet the manufacturer is now going to have to cop the loss for this???
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NYCVIE
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:48 am

32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 3948
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 am

NYCVIE wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?

Lion air is not a reliable operator. And now Boeing is paying the price. All the major reliable airlines like the plane and we’re happy. The US carriers aren’t for the grounding.
 
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:55 am

NYCVIE wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?


Is it Boeing's fault that Lion Air decided to fly a specific aircraft that should have been in the hanger with a known problem that was not yet fixed? Would the JT610 crash have happened if Lion Air did the correct thing and fixed that aircraft instead of let it fly that day?
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:58 am

DL717 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
acechip wrote:
Its not about the official process- North America was beginning to appear stubborn in this whole matter, and losing the perception battle. Even if it was a decision based on scientific data, it appears too convenient that you suddenly have new evidence to completely reverse your stance. The rest of the world interpreted and acted on "Abundance of precaution" in the right spirit. Technically, you can fly a twin-engine plane all the way to the destination with single engine out. The engine reliability data may prove it too. But as a precaution, you divert to the nearest airport.

No it was because the public was whining too loud


Imagine if Twitter was around 40-50 years ago. No one would be flying today.

“ I mean, what is with all of these Douglas planes just falling out of the sky!”
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:02 am

Magog wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Since the entire fleet has been grounded all over the world, you’ve made a very compelling argument that there is sufficient data to back up the grounding.


As of this moment yes. 24 hours ago no.

D L X wrote:
DL717 wrote:
D L X wrote:
Your argument doesn’t support the conclusion you’re trying to draw.


In the context of this incident and the Lion Air incident, it’s absolutely valid. Machines break. Solid training in handling such a situation absolutely matters.

And yet, that conclusion has nothing at all to do with driving statistics. Help me out. What am I missing?


The point.
Last edited by DL717 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:03 am

kotoka wrote:
DL717 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Accepting the diplomatic language used, is that not enough for you? Apparently it was enough to convince the FAA to ground the 737MAX.



"incidents"? 350 dead people don't matter because they're mainly from the developing world? The World's aviation authorities disagree with you.



If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.


Yes, they are called incidents. From the beginning of aviation time. The focus is on probable cause not blame.


Accidents, not incidents. ET may be in the developing world but has had an excellent safety record over the last 55 years of operation.


An acccident is what happened to the plane. The incident is the investigative component to determine probable cause. It’s why when discussing an accident, they refer to it as the “incident aircraft”.

The more you know.
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 am

NYCVIE wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?


False: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/
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bayareapilot
Posts: 61
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:08 am

For being grounded "worldwide", there still are an awful lot of them in the air.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4058
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:08 am

B747forever wrote:
Alexdk wrote:
B747forever wrote:

Ferry flight back to base. Airlines are allowed to return their MAX aircraft to base.


Is WS8989 YWG-YLW also a return to base?


The flight number used leads me to believe that it is a ferry flight. Though not sure why they want it at YLW.

Does WestJet do their own maintenance? KF Aerospace has a large maintenance facility certified to work on Max aircraft at the airport, and two WestJet Max 8s are already parked at YLW, along with a third at KF Aerospace's other Max-certified maintenance facility at YHM.

Perhaps positioning the aircraft to get any modification needed carried out asap, much like Air Canada has been ferrying some of its Max 8s to its maintenance bases.
 
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DL757NYC
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:10 am

Do you guys think WN will drag out of the desert the stores 737’s that don’t require a heavy maintenance check. I know the MAX is a small part of their fleet but I would imagine they don’t have too much slack in the fleet
 
NTLDaz
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:56 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:13 am

[code][/code]
bayareapilot wrote:
For being grounded "worldwide", there still are an awful lot of them in the air.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M


Erroneous. Flightaware is not accurate. According to your link it seems Silkair are flying a Max between CNS and SIN. Not happening,let alone the others.
Last edited by NTLDaz on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4058
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:13 am

bayareapilot wrote:
For being grounded "worldwide", there still are an awful lot of them in the air.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

Scheduled flights, and flights where Flightaware did not get an updated registration. According to FR24, there are three flights in the world as of now, all three ferrying "home" aircraft stranded in another country by the grounding.
 
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DL717
Posts: 1495
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:13 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Do you guys think WN will drag out of the desert the stores 737’s that don’t require a heavy maintenance check. I know the MAX is a small part of their fleet but I would imagine they don’t have too much slack in the fleet


Depends on how long it drags out. It’s the off season for a few more weeks.
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SGAviation
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:15 am

bayareapilot wrote:
For being grounded "worldwide", there still are an awful lot of them in the air.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M


Most are regular B737-800s.

See Flightradar24 for a more accurate map.
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1595
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 am

32andBelow wrote:
DL717 wrote:
tcaeyx wrote:

Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.


Did Lion Air have reported problems from crews and passengers on previous flights in said aircraft. Yes or No?

The answer is yes, yet nothing was done. Would Lion Air have crashed if that plane had been taken out of service? I suppose we’ll never know. Blame Boeing.

Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.

A bit of correction here: Lion Air thus far has crashed one B737-800NG JT904 (crew error) in Bali and the MAX JT610 (cause yet to be determined). The rest are minor incident which happens everyday in the world.

The A320 fleet is maintained by different management with different set of crew and engineers, cabin crew. Higher standard than mainline Lion Air itself.

"So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world"-> Wow, seriously??
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joeblow10
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:21 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Do you guys think WN will drag out of the desert the stores 737’s that don’t require a heavy maintenance check. I know the MAX is a small part of their fleet but I would imagine they don’t have too much slack in the fleet


You mean the old classics -300/500??

Not a chance - as I recall when WN ordered the MAX the FAA or whoever told them that in order to keep their pilots flexible on the famed “single type certificate” the classics would have to go, as they deeemd there was too much of a difference between the classics and the MAX.

Plus... those things were nothing but a mess for WN in the last couple years they owned them. From roofs tearing off from metal fatigue to all sorts of mechanical problems and delays
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:21 am

Air Canada taking it on the chin. 25 narrowbody xcls, including Halifax-London, and YVR-Hawaii.
Gonna take a couple of days to sort out subs?

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