juliuswong
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:29 am

777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
It wasn't an Airbus it was two brand new 737MAX. Oh, and very nearly 350 bodies.


The first:1) being flown by poorly trained, sub-par pilots that were not able to handle a situation that other pilots have handled; 2) involving an aircraft, operated by one of the most accident prone airlines in the world, that should not have been flying at all due to persisting problems that reoccurred on the penultimate flight.

The JT610 crash should never have been allowed to happen; that aircraft should have been on the ground until it was fixed.

As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?

Based on official report, the aircraft was fixed as per Boeing guidelines. Hence was released for operation. Boeing got their hand tied on this.The issue now is whether the AoA sensor was indeed faulty at the first place? Maybe it wasn't at all at first place.But God knows, let's wait for official report.
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32andBelow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:30 am

juliuswong wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Did Lion Air have reported problems from crews and passengers on previous flights in said aircraft. Yes or No?

The answer is yes, yet nothing was done. Would Lion Air have crashed if that plane had been taken out of service? I suppose we’ll never know. Blame Boeing.

Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.

A bit of correction here: Lion Air thus far has crashed one B737-800NG JT904 (crew error) in Bali and the MAX JT610 (cause yet to be determined). The rest are minor incident which happens everyday in the world.

The A320 fleet is maintained by different management with different set of crew and engineers, cabin crew. Higher standard than mainline Lion Air itself.

"So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world"-> Wow, seriously??

There incidents are airplanes sitting in the ocean. In some cases the fuselages are broken into 2 pieces.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:31 am

hongkongflyer wrote:
So finally they admit that two crash are highly similar and willing to ground the unsafe 737MAX.
Sham to FAA and those airlines in USA and Canada, being the last to ground the planes worldwide and claimed that they value the safety as 1st priority.


Could be the MCAS, could be some other faulty component on the plane, could be pilot training. Too many unanswered questions at this point.
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juliuswong
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:34 am

32andBelow wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.

A bit of correction here: Lion Air thus far has crashed one B737-800NG JT904 (crew error) in Bali and the MAX JT610 (cause yet to be determined). The rest are minor incident which happens everyday in the world.

The A320 fleet is maintained by different management with different set of crew and engineers, cabin crew. Higher standard than mainline Lion Air itself.

"So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world"-> Wow, seriously??

There incidents are airplanes sitting in the ocean. In some cases the fuselages are broken into 2 pieces.


Please tell us which incidents where planes are sitting in the ocean?? If you are taking about the one at Denpasar, that's JT 904 like what I have mentioned earlier. A bit of Googling will help you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Air_Flight_904
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Veigar
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:36 am

DL717 wrote:
DL757NYC wrote:
Do you guys think WN will drag out of the desert the stores 737’s that don’t require a heavy maintenance check. I know the MAX is a small part of their fleet but I would imagine they don’t have too much slack in the fleet


Depends on how long it drags out. It’s the off season for a few more weeks.



Pardon my wishful thinking here, but do you think that in light of the MAX grounding, AA will delay the MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

I do not think WN will go flower picking for their old 737-300s to cover for the MAX aircraft, either.
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:39 am

Poor training or proficiency isn't likely to result in two crews reporting airspeed or altitude indication errors and controllability problems and then crashing the aircraft in the same phase of flight with approximately the same attitude.

What's the probability of something like that being just crap training or skill? And if that's what you're going to argue than we need to discuss severely restricting Boeing's sales. How many would like that? I know I wouldn't.

You shouldn't need both crew to be test pilots to fly a commercial airliner. And if that's the level of skill involved, then the issue isn't the crew, it's the OEM.

At this point, it's hard to see folks dismissing all contextual similarities and just blaming the crews, as nothing but trolls.
Last edited by ytz on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:40 am

DL757NYC wrote:
Do you guys think WN will drag out of the desert the stores 737’s that don’t require a heavy maintenance check. I know the MAX is a small part of their fleet but I would imagine they don’t have too much slack in the fleet

You all just think you fly a plane back?

1. The airline normally doesn’t own nor lease the plane anymore.
2. It’s not on the Operating Certificate anymore.
3. It’s normally stripped of its interior and multiple parts.
4. It’s usually not maintenance revenue airworthy anymore.
5. Not qualified crews anymore.
 
maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:41 am

If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:42 am

maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?

Do you really think if it’s unsafe for passengers it would be safe to fly cargo?

SMH
 
maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:45 am

The happiest people with the worldwide grounding must be the MAX pilots. Imagine taking off with your heart in your mouth, wondering whether the issue might crop up at a low altitude and your flying skills and competence being questioned by armchair critics, incase something goes wrong.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:47 am

ytz wrote:
Poor training or proficiency isn't likely to result in two crews reporting airspeed or altitude indication errors and controllability problems and then crashing the aircraft in the same phase of flight with approximately the same attitude.

What's the probability of something like that being just crap training or skill? And if that's what you're going to argue than we need ti discuss severely restricting Boeing's sales. How many would like that? I know I wouldn't.

At this point, it's hard to see folks dismissing all contextual similarities and just blaming the crews, as nothing but trolls.


I believe it’s appropriate to question training in the context of these events, and as a whole. It’s also appropriate to question Ethiopia regarding the implementation of the Safety Bulletin issued by Boeing after Lion Air.
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prebennorholm
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:49 am

DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Grounding is not a punishment for having proved unsafe.
Grounding is the opposite of "permission to fly".
"Permission to fly" is a reward for having proved as safe as reasonably possible.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:49 am

maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?


Doesn't work like that. It's either airworthy or its not.

Nobody wants it plowing into an apartment building or mall or elementary school either. Killing passengers isn't the only concern.
 
maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:49 am

Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?

Do you really think if it’s unsafe for passengers it would be safe to fly cargo?

SMH

Many fighter jets would be considered unsafe for passenger transportation but are not grounded. Cargo can be replaced, but I know in this forum its unfashionable to worry about the dead passengers as apposed to Boeings financials.
 
Starfuryt
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:51 am

32andBelow wrote:
Lion air out about 4 NGs into the ocean. They would put a320s into the ocean no doubt. So no we shouldn’t disrupt the safety aviation system in the world due to incidents in the developing world.


This is really not very hard to look up, here is Lion Air incident history.
https://goo.gl/YAbhM9

You should at least try to check before making baseless claims.
Last edited by Starfuryt on Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:52 am

maint123 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?

Do you really think if it’s unsafe for passengers it would be safe to fly cargo?

SMH

Many fighter jets would be considered unsafe for passenger transportation but are not grounded. Cargo can be replaced, but I know in this forum its unfashionable to worry about the dead passengers as apposed to Boeings financials.

A fighter jet?

A fighter jet wasn’t designed to fly passengers.

Apples to Oranges much?
 
maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:58 am

Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Do you really think if it’s unsafe for passengers it would be safe to fly cargo?

SMH

Many fighter jets would be considered unsafe for passenger transportation but are not grounded. Cargo can be replaced, but I know in this forum its unfashionable to worry about the dead passengers as apposed to Boeings financials.

A fighter jet?

A fighter jet wasn’t designed to fly passengers.

Apples to Oranges much?

Exactly my point. If max is perceived too unreliable for passengers, maybe mitigate the risk to human life by using them as cargo carriers. Its not a total loss for Boeing and its customers.
I was reading in this site that the Soviets had a similar policy for its passenger jets when they were new. 2 years of flights as cargo transporters, till all the kinks are ironed out.
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:58 am

DL717 wrote:
ytz wrote:
Poor training or proficiency isn't likely to result in two crews reporting airspeed or altitude indication errors and controllability problems and then crashing the aircraft in the same phase of flight with approximately the same attitude.

What's the probability of something like that being just crap training or skill? And if that's what you're going to argue than we need ti discuss severely restricting Boeing's sales. How many would like that? I know I wouldn't.

At this point, it's hard to see folks dismissing all contextual similarities and just blaming the crews, as nothing but trolls.


I believe it’s appropriate to question training in the context of these events, and as a whole. It’s also appropriate to question Ethiopia regarding the implementation of the Safety Bulletin issued by Boeing after Lion Air.


Appropriate to question whether they were adequately trained and experienced. Sure.

But quite a few fanboys here are going well beyond that and suggesting that both crashes can be mostly or wholly attributed to crew error and therefore we should ignore contextual similarities, making grounding unjustified. That's quite the stretch. And red herring.

When you see two very similar crashes, you ground. You don't wait for a third. You stop flying and start investigating and you don't declare the fleet airworthy until you can positively rule out technical flaws and possibly identify proficiency fixes.
 
PixelPilot
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:00 am

maint123 wrote:
The happiest people with the worldwide grounding must be the MAX pilots. Imagine taking off with your heart in your mouth, wondering whether the issue might crop up at a low altitude and your flying skills and competence being questioned by armchair critics, incase something goes wrong.


Considering top pilot associations including WN, UA and AA in the US stated on the record that they are happy flying it and find it safe, I find your statement little on the drama seeking side.
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:04 am

prebennorholm wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Grounding is not a punishment for having proved unsafe.
Grounding is the opposite of "permission to fly".
"Permission to fly" is a reward for having proved as safe as reasonably possible.


How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.
 
Magog
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:04 am

bayareapilot wrote:
For being grounded "worldwide", there still are an awful lot of them in the air.

https://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/B38M

Already discussed multiple times in this thread. The data FlightAware is using is garbage.

You didn’t think that the grounding was a joke, did you?
 
32andBelow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 am

For those saying I’m being unfair on lion airs “incident history”

https://www.google.com/search?q=lion+ai ... v&hl=en-us
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 am

prebennorholm wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Grounding is not a punishment for having proved unsafe.
Grounding is the opposite of "permission to fly".
"Permission to fly" is a reward for having proved as safe as reasonably possible.


Didn’t say it was punishment. Hence you don’t ground it without a valid reason.

ytz wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Grounding is not a punishment for having proved unsafe.
Grounding is the opposite of "permission to fly".
"Permission to fly" is a reward for having proved as safe as reasonably possible.


How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.


Which was already done during the cert process.
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DDR
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:10 am

maint123 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Many fighter jets would be considered unsafe for passenger transportation but are not grounded. Cargo can be replaced, but I know in this forum its unfashionable to worry about the dead passengers as apposed to Boeings financials.

A fighter jet?

A fighter jet wasn’t designed to fly passengers.

Apples to Oranges much?

Exactly my point. If max is perceived too unreliable for passengers, maybe mitigate the risk to human life by using them as cargo carriers. Its not a total loss for Boeing and its customers.
I was reading in this site that the Soviets had a similar policy for its passenger jets when they were new. 2 years of flights as cargo transporters, till all the kinks are ironed out.


No way. Do you want to be laying in bed at night worrying that one carrying cargo may take a nosedive into your house? I sure don’t.
I’m still hoping it’s not a faulty design and that it’s something easily correctable (if it is indeed a mechanical issue). Time will tell eventually.
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:17 am

DL717 wrote:


Didn’t say it was punishment. Hence you don’t ground it without a valid reason.


Two similarly contextual crashes which were preceded by crew reports of issues are a damn good reason to ground.

The only folks who disagree are those who don't get how aviation safety works.

DL717 wrote:


ytz wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
Grounding is not a punishment for having proved unsafe.
Grounding is the opposite of "permission to fly".
"Permission to fly" is a reward for having proved as safe as reasonably possible.


How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.


Which was already done during the cert process.


And? You still need to maintain the confidence of regulators. Airworthiness certification is not some 100% blanket authorization that is irrevocable.
Last edited by ytz on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
juliuswong
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:18 am

Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A fighter jet?

A fighter jet wasn’t designed to fly passengers.

Apples to Oranges much?

Exactly my point. If max is perceived too unreliable for passengers, maybe mitigate the risk to human life by using them as cargo carriers. Its not a total loss for Boeing and its customers.
I was reading in this site that the Soviets had a similar policy for its passenger jets when they were new. 2 years of flights as cargo transporters, till all the kinks are ironed out.

Absolutely and udderly rediculous

@maint123 Are you implying that pilots for cargo flight is less precious than those of pax flight?
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gregorous
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:19 am

https://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/1105974480604667905

Transport Minister Marc Garneau explicitly states that MCAS is responsible for the Lion Air crash and that the flight data from the ET crash has some similarities.
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:21 am

gregorous wrote:
https://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/1105974480604667905

Transport Minister Marc Garneau explicitly states that MCAS is responsible for the Lion Air crash and that the flight data from the ET crash has some similarities.

Did he investigate it and come to his own conclusion?

Purely speculation on his part.
 
robsaw
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:25 am

ytz wrote:

How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.


We aren't talking about individual civil rights here - and characterizing it in terms of privileges or rights is deflecting it away from rational analysis as is the "getting it" statement (pure emotion). What the right to operate an aircraft is ... is a regulated authority that is granted or suspended/rescinded in accordance with a complex regime using evidence-based criteria at either end of that "or" decision. Anything else is simply arbitrary behaviour.
 
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Veigar
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:27 am

DL717 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Depends on how long it drags out. It’s the off season for a few more weeks.



Pardon my wishful thinking here, but do you think that in light of the MAX grounding, AA will delay the MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

I do not think WN will go flower picking for their old 737-300s to cover for the MAX aircraft, either.


Christ I hope not. :white:


That would make a good discussion in its own right honestly. I can see them doing it. :rotfl:
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:33 am

ytz wrote:
Poor training or proficiency isn't likely to result in two crews reporting airspeed or altitude indication errors and controllability problems and then crashing the aircraft in the same phase of flight with approximately the same attitude.

What's the probability of something like that being just crap training or skill? And if that's what you're going to argue than we need to discuss severely restricting Boeing's sales. How many would like that? I know I wouldn't.

You shouldn't need both crew to be test pilots to fly a commercial airliner. And if that's the level of skill involved, then the issue isn't the crew, it's the OEM.

At this point, it's hard to see folks dismissing all contextual similarities and just blaming the crews, as nothing but trolls.


You consider people asking you to wait for the results of the investigation before assigning blame to be trolls?
 
robsaw
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:36 am

Boof02671 wrote:
gregorous wrote:
https://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/1105974480604667905

Transport Minister Marc Garneau explicitly states that MCAS is responsible for the Lion Air crash and that the flight data from the ET crash has some similarities.

Did he investigate it and come to his own conclusion?

Purely speculation on his part.


Given that Boeing and the FAA made recommendations "on the basis of preliminary information gathered in the investigation" of the Lion Air crash regarding the behaviour of MCAS and erroneous angle of attack indications I would conclude that Garneau's statement was incorrectly definitive but much more than "purely speculation".
 
benjjk
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:48 am

tcaeyx wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Aviation737 wrote:
I like how people are still unhappy with Boeing and the FAA even after they grounded the MAX... I guess some people can't be pleased

Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


Two trains of thought have emerged so far regarding this issue: innocent until proven guilty (USA) and better safe than sorry (the rest of the world). You obviously subscribe to the latter, despite evidence suggesting the not insignificant probability that an issue with the plane may have played even the smallest role in both crashes. I'm honestly curious about where your mentality comes from, and whether you'll rescind these words if it's shown that Boeing was even partially at fault.


I think it's more accurate to say the two sides are "you have to prove that it's unsafe" (USA) and "you have to prove that it's safe" (rest of the world).
 
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hongkongflyer
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:48 am

777Jet wrote:
scbriml wrote:
777Jet wrote:
As for your body count, I take it that you would be fine with all A380s being grounded if just one full one was lost by a quality airline given the number in service is even less than the MAX?


If two A380s had inexplicably fallen out of the sky killing everyone in similar circumstances shortly after EIS, I expect they would have been grounded similarly. Yes, it would have been the correct thing to do.


My question specifically said "just one full one was lost by a quality airline".

You have mentioned "number of bodies" several times as a reason for a grounding; just one lost full A380 would easily surpass the 350 mark.

So, why change your answer to two?

Yes, two Max8's have crashed, but the first Max8 that crashed should not have been flying at the time, and was being flown by poorly trained sub-par pilots that could not handle a situation other pilots could handle, yet the manufacturer is now going to have to cop the loss for this???


Had we demand a ground after the recent 767F crash? AirFrance 330 crash? and many other?
the answer is NO.
 
theaathiqone
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:54 am

Boof02671 wrote:
gregorous wrote:
https://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/1105974480604667905

Transport Minister Marc Garneau explicitly states that MCAS is responsible for the Lion Air crash and that the flight data from the ET crash has some similarities.

Did he investigate it and come to his own conclusion?

Purely speculation on his part.



No, the Canadian TSB did not speculate on their part. 18 Canadian Nationals were killed, and as such, the Canadian TSB are involved in the investigation too. They saw the satellite tracking data suggesting similarities between the flight profile of ET-302 and the flight profile of Lion Air Flight 610 and made their statement. Of course, it's too early to make conclusions, but the transport minister did not state that it is conclusive...

in any way.
 
EChid
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:08 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Air Canada taking it on the chin. 25 narrowbody xcls, including Halifax-London, and YVR-Hawaii.
Gonna take a couple of days to sort out subs?

You can bet that AC was cooking up a recovery plan from Sunday afternoon onwards. The Halifax-London flight is probably cancelled indefinitely (no big hurt in the winter, just route them through Montreal where there is plenty of capacity), and I believe the YVR-HNL route is just going from several daily maxes to fewer daily WBs.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
Sancho99504
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 am

DL717 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?


False: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/

How on earth is this statement false? Did you even read the article that you posted? Boeing didn't say a damn thing about it UNTIL AFTER Lion Air crashed. Southwest and American pilots were not happy that they were unaware of it.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:22 am

maint123 wrote:
The happiest people with the worldwide grounding must be the MAX pilots. Imagine taking off with your heart in your mouth, wondering whether the issue might crop up at a low altitude and your flying skills and competence being questioned by armchair critics, incase something goes wrong.


BS I’m a commercial airline pilot and I would have no problem taking off in a MAX right now. I have many many friends that are 737 pilots that fly the MAX they feel the same way.

If you are worried about your competence being questioned then you are not competent.
 
cdin844
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:25 am

AA sending out a lot of rescue planes. I think this is one of them: https://fr24.com/1fcbb27a
 
ikramerica
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:49 am

So now we have Trump swooping in and mandating a safety grounding because he didn't wnat to be seen as the only country not being “safe.”

How many people crowing about this are happy that they have Trump to thank for it?

The Canadian official clearly states that he recommended grounding even though he admits it may not be MCAS related.

My question again is: if it isn’t confirmed that ET is MCAS related, then it could also be an issue that could happen on an NG. Since we don’t know, and we want to be cautious, why aren’t we grounding the NG? Because it would be crippling, that’s why. The reason the MAX is being grounded is because there aren’t enough in service to cause too much long term damage to the airlines around the world by grounding them. So its not that inconvenient to be catious. To paraphrase Homer Simpson: “sure, grounding the NG would save lives, but milkions would be late!”
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
impilot
Posts: 213
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:01 am

ikramerica wrote:
So now we have Trump swooping in and mandating a safety grounding because he didn't wnat to be seen as the only country not being “safe.”

How many people crowing about this are happy that they have Trump to thank for it?

The Canadian official clearly states that he recommended grounding even though he admits it may not be MCAS related.

My question again is: if it isn’t confirmed that ET is MCAS related, then it could also be an issue that could happen on an NG. Since we don’t know, and we want to be cautious, why aren’t we grounding the NG? Because it would be crippling, that’s why. The reason the MAX is being grounded is because there aren’t enough in service to cause too much long term damage to the airlines around the world by grounding them. So its not that inconvenient to be catious. To paraphrase Homer Simpson: “sure, grounding the NG would save lives, but milkions would be late!”


How many NGs have nosed into the ground right after takeoff? How many MAXs have? Similar crash sequences. Related? Who knows. But NGs have been safely flying for a long time. MAXs not so much. No reason to ground NGs.
 
maint123
Posts: 144
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:30 am

juliuswong wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Exactly my point. If max is perceived too unreliable for passengers, maybe mitigate the risk to human life by using them as cargo carriers. Its not a total loss for Boeing and its customers.
I was reading in this site that the Soviets had a similar policy for its passenger jets when they were new. 2 years of flights as cargo transporters, till all the kinks are ironed out.

Absolutely and udderly rediculous

@maint123 Are you implying that pilots for cargo flight is less precious than those of pax flight?

Known as risk mitigation.
 
sciing
Posts: 127
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:36 am

bob75013 wrote:
So why is the FAA not acting.

Ex NTSB accident investigators explain:

"Rush to Judgment?
But veteran accident investigators defended the FAA, which has said there's no data to link the two crashes.


"I don't see the facts to justify what they've done," John Goglia, an independent safety consultant and former member of the National Transportation Safety Board, said of the moves by other countries to stop the Max 8 from flying. "If they have facts, I wish they would share them with the rest of the world so we can protect the air-traveling public."

No data??
Statistics is usually the 1st data you have. And the pure statistics are a nightmare for the MAX. I do not get why this 2 events have to be related for grounding!
The MAX is by the simplest measure an unsafe aircraft with the worst fatal accident performance after EIS for the last decades.
Do we want to wait to prove significance, root cause and so on? It is simple Statistical Process Control.
Stop it 1st and than clarify the root cause.
 
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seahawk
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:01 am

maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?


The MAX is not unsafe, at worst one flight control system needs to be improved or re-designed (using 2 AoA sensors and turning off when noticing a sensor data difference - like it always should have been).
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1605
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:03 am

It looks like the softare fix addresses one of the main MCAS problems. It can be triggered (and continually retriggered) by faulty data due to a single point of failure.

This is not really a software bug, it is a design issue. Boeing engineers, for whatever reason, decided to take the cheapest and simplest way to manage the automatic triggering of MCAS. This meant it technically met the criteria of the FAA to fix the manual flight problem of the increasing engine power destabilising the attitude of the plane and possibly causing a stall.

If their only aim for MCAS was to get it certified then that is a massive fail for Boeing and an engineeing approach that just doesn't belong in the modern era. The fix caused a problem that was just as deadly than the one it was supposed to prevent.

I can't believe Boeing engineers thought this up since they are right now writing the software to be fault tolerant and safer. Boeing is going to have to tell the whole story of why this was done. It is also going to have to assure all it's customers that this is not a systemic problem.

This also means that Boeing is going to be open to a lot of expensive law suits from victims.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 am

seahawk wrote:
maint123 wrote:
If the Max is found to have serious design issues and too unsafe for passengers, maybe use them for cargo, courier service ? Can these 400 odd max be absorbed for cargo operations.?


The MAX is not unsafe, at worst one flight control system needs to be improved or re-designed (using 2 AoA sensors and turning off when noticing a sensor data difference - like it always should have been).


The problem with turning it off is that it is then not certified to fly and could be stalled more easily than expected.
 
Paolo18
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:37 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:15 am

Reading the comments here there are a few issues that need to be resolved and quickly.

1. The apparent collusion between FAA, Boeing and Trump. Obviously the politicisation of the grounding of this aircraft in the US was done in a way to show to the public a concern for safety but raises questions about the role of the FAA in this whole saga. Trump wasn't required to address this situation but chose to. This opens a whole can of worms and makes you wonder if he is in cahoots with the FAA.

2. The actual reason for failure. Software or hardware? Let the investigation (neutral party) run its course.

3. The recall and time of resolution. Weeks, months, years for Boeing to fix this?

4. The economic cost of this incident to the US economy, Boeing employees and the shareholders and future sales of 737 max?

5. The lessons learnt from these 2 tragic accidents and implementation of changes moving forward for future accidents.


Humans are incredible creatures who sadly allow emotional consciousness to dictate their reluctance to evolve into better decision makers.

The lesson learnt here is to abstain from politicisation of tragedy and make our aircrafts first and foremost safer 4 all people across the globe.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:21 am

Hardware fails, you need software to be fault tolerant in this type of hardware failure. The software was not designed to be fault tolerant, though. It was only designed to meet the FAA criteria.
 
Varsity1
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Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 am

The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 126
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:26 am

DL717 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Not all of us supported the grounding in the first place. In this day and age Boeing and airbus maybe need to structure their deliveres such that lion air can’t destroy their company


I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?


False: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/


What's false? The bulletin you posted is from after Lion Air? Which would lead one to think they wouldn't have posted it had Lion Air not happened (yet the MCAS flaw still would have existed with far less attention to it).

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