Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:26 am

Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1958
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:29 am

Interested wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


The don't sink calls are from the EGPWS, not the AOA vane.

We would have reports of the stick shaker activating in flight if the vane were faulty.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:30 am

What have pilots said about the 737 Max 8?
Pilots in the US had complained late last year about problems controlling the Boeing 737 Max 8 during take-off.
They reported difficulties similar to those that contributed to the fatal Lion Air crash in Indonesia in October.
The Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed minutes into its flight.
Flightradar24, an air traffic monitor, said the plane's "vertical speed was unstable after take-off".

Also from BBC News

Clearly there's a fault. Planes should be easy to fly and not through faulty systems presenting pilots with faults they have to intervene with to prevent a plane crashing??

Surely that's not even up for debate?

These disasters clearly aren't two isolated incidents so the grounding debate is over until this is sorted

And let's not blame the third world for the deaths anymore either. The third world didn't design these planes or write the software. They just have to deal with intervening when it goes wrong.
Last edited by Interested on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1745
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:34 am

ikramerica wrote:
My question again is: if it isn’t confirmed that ET is MCAS related, then it could also be an issue that could happen on an NG.

There would be at least twenty NGs crashed by now, if the potentially identical root cause would be present in NGs as well. Do you see the difference now?

ikramerica wrote:
Since we don’t know, and we want to be cautious, why aren’t we grounding the NG? Because it would be crippling, that’s why.

In the light of the statement above, this is laughable.
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:37 am

It's clearly not isolated incidents. It's faulty planes causing disasters. End of.

I don't want the pilot of any plane I fly on having to intervene to save my life due to a fault on a plane

It's enough worrying about bombs or bird strikes or pilot suicides

But faulty stall messages

That's ridiculous for pilots to be having to deal with. It's shocking and sickening really. And that's caused by a US company not third world companies
 
marcelh
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:40 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
So will Boeing rush to compensate the airlines in question, like Airbus did with the PW NEOs when they had their teething troubles?


Compensate for what? It would be incredibly foolish for Boeing to accept blame for a crash that hasn't even had it's FDR and VCR analyzed.

It’s incredibly foolish to still deny something is wrong with the plane or it’s behavior
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:45 am

Interested wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


Can anyone explain why it takes a second tragedy for reports of American pilots reporting similar issues on their flights to become public knowledge?

Or is the BBC statement reporting something that was already public knowledge?
 
Osiris
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:46 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Wow

Major props to the airliners.net community for finding out the cause of the ET crash within 12hrs.
And then quickly implementing a worldwide grounding of 300+ aircraft.

You have saved a lot of lives today airplane fans.....bravo!


Glad to see this arrogant little comment eventually proven wrong.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:51 am

777Jet wrote:
D L X wrote:
I want the planes I’m not flying on to be as safe as possible.


Then pay for it.

777Jet, with all due respect that is an completely horriable attatiude. When I worked in the aircraft certification area in Australia, about 4 decades ago it was drummed into us that keeping people safe applied just as much to the general public on THE GROUND as it did to passengers and crew and other aviation workers. Why, because they are innocent by standers and if too many got hurt then aviation would be serverly curtiled if not banned outright. I still think that is correct and if these two Max8 crashes had both happened in this country very few if any Boeing aircraft woulf be flying to/from/within this country. Yes that would be economicly very bad for the country but It's not about calm reasoned fact based decision making any more, it about preventing panic! You don't think that's reasonable, talk to any senior fire offical.
Aviation is not a right, it's something we are permitted to do by scoiety, IF we do it as safely as possible, as judged by the PUBLIC, not professionals.

Gemuser
 
Varsity1
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:51 am

Interested wrote:
Interested wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


Can anyone explain why it takes a second tragedy for reports of American pilots reporting similar issues on their flights to become public knowledge?

Or is the BBC statement reporting something that was already public knowledge?


MCAS doesn't work with the autopilot engaged, so what BBC is describing probably isn't related. /facts
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:51 am

Interested wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


Please note that's just two reports from the US reporting system

I wonder how many more times this has occurred around the world?

I note they are allowed to report things anonymously!
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:53 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Interested wrote:
Interested wrote:

Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


Can anyone explain why it takes a second tragedy for reports of American pilots reporting similar issues on their flights to become public knowledge?

Or is the BBC statement reporting something that was already public knowledge?


MCAS doesn't work with the autopilot engaged, so what BBC is describing probably isn't related. /facts


It's not exactly reassuring to know they've actually got more than one software fault to fix on these planes then? So it's not just takeoff to worry about the plane giving faulty messages to pilots on these planes?
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:06 am

Wow it gets worse. The Canadian Transport Minister reporting that 737 max planes operating in Canada have faced similar flight pattern issues

Wonder how much was spent investigating all of these non disaster issues. Not enough clearly.


"Up until Wednesday, the FAA position was that a review had showed "no systemic performance issues" and that there was no basis for grounding the aircraft.
Earlier in the day, Canada grounded the planes after its transport minister Marc Garneau said he had received new evidence about the crash.
He said that satellite data showed possible similarities between flight patterns of Boeing 737 Max planes operating in Canada and the Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed."

The above again reported by the BBC
 
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FabDiva
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:09 am

A question (and forgive me if it's already answered)

As I understand it the A320 has 3 AoA vanes to feed it's stall protection, while the 737 has 2 vanes. Would it be possible for Boeing to add a 3rd vane? If they did, would that trigger the full re-certification that they've been trying to avoid?
 
AC1
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:12 am

Trying to sum up the frustration expressed over 2000 posts in just a few points:

-some people are extremely anxious to resolve the mystery of the Max...overly anxious. We need to have the recorders analyzed.
-some people are simply here to go after other members who don’t agree... or just to take out their own frustration. Not sure how to stop that.
-many folks here and in the press have said absurd things, without any expertise.

All of this together has caused an often toxic chat where it’s hard to pick out relevant and accurate information. Let’s do better than this.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:13 am

Well done to all of the pilots who when faced with similar issues on these planes have managed to figure out the faulty messages and deal with them

I kind of feel if I was ever flying on one of these planes I would want to speak to the pilots before takeoff to check they've got a plan ready in case they get the faulty message!

Can't believe this is happening in this day and age tbh

Scary what goes on. And these are new planes. I always used to feel safer getting on a new plane.
Last edited by Interested on Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:16 am

Looks like a good time (a bit past actually) to buy NYSE*BA since this negative effect is fully priced in. :cool2:
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:19 am

Virtual737 wrote:
the other you are blaming two dead pilots before an investigation is closed.


I'm stating that these pilots were unable to do what the other Max pilots facing a similar situation up until that point had done and recover the aircraft. Why is that?

Virtual737 wrote:
At this stage it would be more accurate to say that these pilots and all the passengers (on the Lion Air crash) were killed by a poorly thought out, badly designed "safety" system that they were not even aware of, let alone trained on because the manufacturer needed to implement it to secure sales but then didn't think it worthy enough to provide total clarity on.


You obviously fail to understand the meaning of "accurate" if that is your "more accurate" assessment.

Virtual737 wrote:
You're lauding the previous pilots of the Lion Air aircraft as able to handle the situation - perhaps they were plain lucky - while pissing on the graves of the accident pilots by calling them poorly trained and sub-par when in all likelihood they received exactly the same training.


"In all likelihood they received exactly the same training" - "perhaps they were plain lucky" - Wow! They all get the exact same training and the end result comes down to luck, not skills :roll:
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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seahawk
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:24 am

If any machine shows a behaviour that requires user intervention and reality shows that users fail to deliver the required input, the man to machine interface is faulty.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:35 am

seahawk wrote:
If any machine shows a behaviour that requires user intervention and reality shows that users fail to deliver the required input, the man to machine interface is faulty.


And the vast vast majority of machines aren't capable of killing 200 plus people without the right intervention
 
PeteKMCFC
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:37 am

Hi everyone,

According to FR24 there are 3 Max 8s flying right now in the US. 2 x SW and 1 x SWG.

Am I missing something? I thought there was a worldwide ban.

Cheers

Pete
 
dampfnudel
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:41 am

PeteKMCFC wrote:
Hi everyone,

According to FR24 there are 3 Max 8s flying right now in the US. 2 x SW and 1 x SWG.

Am I missing something? I thought there was a worldwide ban.

Cheers

Pete

Ferry flights with no passengers. They want to get them to locations with adequate space for storing them until the ban gets lifted. One way to tell is the high flight numbers (7xxx or 8xxx).
Last edited by dampfnudel on Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
PeteKMCFC
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:44 am

Ahh that makes sense! Thanks for the super quick reply :bigthumbsup:
 
Virtual737
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:58 am

777Jet wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
the other you are blaming two dead pilots before an investigation is closed.


I'm stating that these pilots were unable to do what the other Max pilots facing a similar situation up until that point had done and recover the aircraft. Why is that?

Virtual737 wrote:
At this stage it would be more accurate to say that these pilots and all the passengers (on the Lion Air crash) were killed by a poorly thought out, badly designed "safety" system that they were not even aware of, let alone trained on because the manufacturer needed to implement it to secure sales but then didn't think it worthy enough to provide total clarity on.


You obviously fail to understand the meaning of "accurate" if that is your "more accurate" assessment.

Virtual737 wrote:
You're lauding the previous pilots of the Lion Air aircraft as able to handle the situation - perhaps they were plain lucky - while pissing on the graves of the accident pilots by calling them poorly trained and sub-par when in all likelihood they received exactly the same training.


"In all likelihood they received exactly the same training" - "perhaps they were plain lucky" - Wow! They all get the exact same training and the end result comes down to luck, not skills :roll:


You seem to have raised issues with every comment except the one that outed your post as disgusting drivel. At least we seem to agree on something and, enough said.
 
StTim
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:03 am

I find the constant statements that the Lion Air frame should not have been allowed to fly disturbing. As far as I am aware the mechanic who signed it off was a passenger on the fatal flight.

Do people here really think he signed off a defective plane and then got on it?

Also I wonder if the found the ET tail plane and found it heavily trimmed nose down?
 
ltbewr
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:08 am

I wonder why this problem wasn't seen during the flight testing. Not every pilot will be as skilled as the test pilots at Boeing (or any plane maker) or the pilots of planes in service who took the proper corrective actions to deal with the problem.
Last edited by ltbewr on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:10 am

US pilots confident in the Boeing 737 Max planes following second fatal crash in 5 months
American's and United's pilots unions say the planes are safe to operate.
Neither airline's pilots union has found any problems in its analysis of flight time in these planes.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/13/us-pilo ... crash.html
 
Etika
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:11 am

Kinetic wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Boeing could sue worldwide regulators, in case it's proven the two accidents in question aren't to be caused nor prevented by Boeing, btw.


This kind of thinking is a common misconception, but it simply isn't true, especially in European legal systems. In most jurisdictions, courts would not even consider the issue and even if they would, there would be extremely small chance of them ever finding in favor of Boeing.

Typically there are two different grounds on which it is possible to sue regulators. The first grounds is breach of legal duty by the regulator. This is a complete no-starter in this case because the regulators have legal duty for benefit of travelling public, not for benefit of airplane manufacturers. Thus, courts would consider such an argument to be as obviously without merit. The second basis is would be intentional overstepping of powers, gross negligence, or malfeasance on part of the regulator. Typically, for such a claim one would first need to show one of these in criminal or administrative court.

Importantly, courts will not second-guess the technical judgement of regulators (at least in European legal systems) when the right of such judgement is given to a regulator. And in aviation, such a right is explicitly given to safety regulators. The courts would only consider whether the legal steps have been correctly followed, not review the technical basis. And the legal framework does not require that accidents would have to be caused or been preventable by Boeing as criteria of grounding.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:20 am

RickNRoll wrote:
It looks like the softare fix addresses one of the main MCAS problems. It can be triggered (and continually retriggered) by faulty data due to a single point of failure.

This is not really a software bug, it is a design issue. Boeing engineers, for whatever reason, decided to take the cheapest and simplest way to manage the automatic triggering of MCAS. This meant it technically met the criteria of the FAA to fix the manual flight problem of the increasing engine power destabilising the attitude of the plane and possibly causing a stall.

If their only aim for MCAS was to get it certified then that is a massive fail for Boeing and an engineeing approach that just doesn't belong in the modern era. The fix caused a problem that was just as deadly than the one it was supposed to prevent.

I can't believe Boeing engineers thought this up since they are right now writing the software to be fault tolerant and safer. Boeing is going to have to tell the whole story of why this was done. It is also going to have to assure all it's customers that this is not a systemic problem.

This also means that Boeing is going to be open to a lot of expensive law suits from victims.

This is exactly my thoughts. If it wasn't for grandfathering rules the 737 MAX as it sits could never be certified. I have seen quite a few examples where certification has been passed when it shouldn't due to finding loopholes.

They need to have different levels of certification. They could break up the aircraft into three categories Aerodynamic, engine and avionics/systems. If anything is changed by more than 10% then that whole section of the certification should be performed like it is a clean sheet aircraft following current standards.

If the 737 MAX was a clean sheet design it may have required more than twice the number of test flights. Those test flights may have discovered problems like this.
 
sibibom
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:24 am

There are some new charts from FDR data provided from the accident flight of Lion Air, on the Lion Air crash thread. It will open a can of worms and change quite a lot of assumptions people are making.
 
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keesje
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:36 am

"Sunday’s tragic accident in Ethiopia bears an uncanny resemblance to the circumstances of the October crash of Lion Air 610, a fact which Boeing has tried to downplay by arguing that both accidents are still under investigation." (Leeham)

- New facts & details surfacing & tracing back communication on both crashes, I think Dennis Muilenberg has to go. Credibility has irreversably been damaged. -
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
D L X
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:45 am

Gemuser wrote:
777Jet wrote:
D L X wrote:
I want the planes I’m not flying on to be as safe as possible.


Then pay for it.

777Jet, with all due respect that is an completely horriable attatiude. When I worked in the aircraft certification area in Australia, about 4 decades ago it was drummed into us that keeping people safe applied just as much to the general public on THE GROUND as it did to passengers and crew and other aviation workers. Why, because they are innocent by standers and if too many got hurt then aviation would be serverly curtiled if not banned outright. I still think that is correct and if these two Max8 crashes had both happened in this country very few if any Boeing aircraft woulf be flying to/from/within this country. Yes that would be economicly very bad for the country but It's not about calm reasoned fact based decision making any more, it about preventing panic! You don't think that's reasonable, talk to any senior fire offical.
Aviation is not a right, it's something we are permitted to do by scoiety, IF we do it as safely as possible, as judged by the PUBLIC, not professionals.

Gemuser

He knows he was incorrect here, and I’m not holding my breath for a retraction.

The level of discourse here got really crappy when a small subset of posters came on. Sometimes it’s best to wait until they go to bed to have an adult conversation.
 
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MrBren
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:59 am

SimonL wrote:
... the American aviation industry ...


which claimed the MAX was safe and reliable until the worldwide grounding.
 
giblets
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:03 am

I may have missed it already (45pages!), but at a production rate of 52/month (are they still producing the NG, or is it 52 max/month?) they are going to be piling up these jets pretty quick, where are they going to start storing them? Anything more than a weeks ground and space is going to get tight.
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oldannyboy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 am

From the BBC website:

'Criminally insufficient'
After the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued guidance on what to do regarding erroneous readings from the sensor, which sends out information about what angle a plane is flying at.
But another pilot said that "it did nothing" to address the problems with the sensor.
They said: "I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models.
They added: "I am left to wonder: what else don't I know? The flight manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

I am wondering what the long-term repercussions for Boeing will be, because I am pretty certain there will be some...I am left wondering whether a part of the travelling public will now look at Boeing products with suspicion, and not because they might be inherently unsafe or anything, but simply because a crucial fault was addressed in such casual manner.
It pains me greatly to see one of the two greatest aircraft manufacturers approach what has turned to be a seriously critical and potentially lethal issue with one of their top products in such a shallow, non-committal, hush-hush kind of way. Big reality check for them as well as the public, AS WELL AS their customers... I expected far better of them - heck, They CAN do a lot better.

This also demonstrates that a cosy duopoly in the aviation market is not only unhealthy but potentially downright dangerous.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:30 am

Paolo18 wrote:
Reading the comments here there are a few issues that need to be resolved and quickly.

1. The apparent collusion between FAA, Boeing and Trump. Obviously the politicisation of the grounding of this aircraft in the US was done in a way to show to the public a concern for safety but raises questions about the role of the FAA in this whole saga. Trump wasn't required to address this situation but chose to. This opens a whole can of worms and makes you wonder if he is in cahoots with the FAA.

2. The actual reason for failure. Software or hardware? Let the investigation (neutral party) run its course.

3. The recall and time of resolution. Weeks, months, years for Boeing to fix this?

4. The economic cost of this incident to the US economy, Boeing employees and the shareholders and future sales of 737 max?

5. The lessons learnt from these 2 tragic accidents and implementation of changes moving forward for future accidents.


Humans are incredible creatures who sadly allow emotional consciousness to dictate their reluctance to evolve into better decision makers.

The lesson learnt here is to abstain from politicisation of tragedy and make our aircrafts first and foremost safer 4 all people across the globe.


It’s difficult to discuss this problem without veering off into political territory but politics are indeed a major part of the problem. For the time being Boeing, the FAA and Trump are closely intertwined in my opinion. Dennis Muilenberg, president of Boeing and Trump are apparently “buddies”, with Muilenberg having been working to “cultivate” Trump as an ardent supporter of Boeing. He had been whispering in Trump's ear that the MAX was a safe plane and until the last day or so, Trump had apparently been buying into that:

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1105546135555489799

As far as the FAA goes, Trump has apparently politicized…or at least attempted to politicize much of his cabinet and has also been slow to fill vacancies. He has also been criticized for placing poorly qualified candidates in cabinet positions.

Right now, the FAA only has an acting director, Michael Herta for the past 2 years. I don’t know anything about him. He may be very good in that job or he may not be.

Before that, Trump wanted to appoint the pilot of his private Trump 757 as director of the FAA, apparently thinking that being pilot of that plane was enough to qualify him for that job (IIRC, he also wanted to make his personal physician Surgeon General). The senate refused to confirm him as the director of the FAA however and Trump has not nominated a permanent director since that happened 2 years ago. One has to wonder if the FAA can be anywhere near as strong a force for oversight as it needs to be given the current political situation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... g-fallout/

Bottom line…Trump is known to stay close to his cabinet officers and apparently frequently tries to influence them. On the other hand, Dennis Muilenberg of Boeing has likewise been attempting to influence Trump (according to Ken Vogel’s Twitter, link above), apparently with some success recently. That is why I say that in my opinion, they are all seem intertwined at the moment.
Last edited by SuperGee on Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:38 am

Virtual737 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:
the other you are blaming two dead pilots before an investigation is closed.


I'm stating that these pilots were unable to do what the other Max pilots facing a similar situation up until that point had done and recover the aircraft. Why is that?

Virtual737 wrote:
At this stage it would be more accurate to say that these pilots and all the passengers (on the Lion Air crash) were killed by a poorly thought out, badly designed "safety" system that they were not even aware of, let alone trained on because the manufacturer needed to implement it to secure sales but then didn't think it worthy enough to provide total clarity on.


You obviously fail to understand the meaning of "accurate" if that is your "more accurate" assessment.

Virtual737 wrote:
You're lauding the previous pilots of the Lion Air aircraft as able to handle the situation - perhaps they were plain lucky - while pissing on the graves of the accident pilots by calling them poorly trained and sub-par when in all likelihood they received exactly the same training.


"In all likelihood they received exactly the same training" - "perhaps they were plain lucky" - Wow! They all get the exact same training and the end result comes down to luck, not skills :roll:


You seem to have raised issues with every comment except the one that outed your post as disgusting drivel. At least we seem to agree on something and, enough said.


Your opinion of the nature of my post is irrelevant (as is mine of yours) so why would I raise issue with it? You can act like a keyboard warrior and change tact from debating the grounding to throwing out insults if you wish. But claiming that we agree on something just because I didn't quote and reply is just sad...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2378
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:39 am

SuperGee wrote:

1. The apparent collusion between FAA, Boeing and Trump. Obviously the politicisation of the grounding of this aircraft in the US was done in a way to show to the public a concern for safety but raises questions about the role of the FAA in this whole saga. Trump wasn't required to address this situation but chose to. This opens a whole can of worms and makes you wonder if he is in cahoots with the FAA.



It’s difficult to discuss this problem without veering off into political territory but politics are indeed a major part of the problem. For the time being Boeing, the FAA and Trump are closely intertwined in my opinion. Dennis Muilenberg, president of Boeing and Trump are apparently “buddies”, with Muilenberg having been working to “cultivate” Trump as an ardent supporter of Boeing.
.


:checkmark: This.

Time to ponder and reflect and consider whether economic interests and politics have indeed gone a step too far this time... The manufacturer, the certifying body, the government...are they all the same character in this sad American farce?
 
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journeyperson
Posts: 28
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:55 am

It has been widely argued in this forum and in linked articles I have read, that the development of the MAX in attempting to compete with the A320 NEO has resulted in an unbalanced aircraft, requiring systems and software to make the plane stay in the air at certain phases of flight, as well as to make the plane feel like a NG so NG pilots can transfer to it within type. The argument that properly trained and experienced pilots should be able to prevent the plane crashing when the systems malfunction just isn't satisfactory and will not be acceptable to airlines if the current investigations establish that the design changes are inherently unsafe.

It looks as though the MAX could be a development too far and the 737 had reached its limit with the NG. As has been said elsewhere it is time to design and build a successor; beyond time in view of the lives that have been lost.

The worrying thing is that people involved with the plane's design and development must have been aware of all the issues but have pressed on, asserting that they could make the MAX a safe, commercial competitor to the A320 NEO.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3795
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:02 am

32andBelow wrote:
Lion air is not a reliable operator. And now Boeing is paying the price. All the major reliable airlines like the plane and we’re happy. The US carriers aren’t for the grounding.


Reliable operators such as those that do engine changes with forklifts (United) or who have payed $19m in fines since 2000 for 293 violations of FAA rules since 2000 (Southwest) or who have flown airplanes without mandated repairs (Delta) etc. etc.?

Just google "maintenance", "[name of your preferred US airline]" and "fined" and you will be surprised what comes up...
 
Wallhart
Posts: 6
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:13 am

oldannyboy wrote:
From the BBC website:

'Criminally insufficient'
After the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued guidance on what to do regarding erroneous readings from the sensor, which sends out information about what angle a plane is flying at.
But another pilot said that "it did nothing" to address the problems with the sensor.
They said: "I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models.
They added: "I am left to wonder: what else don't I know? The flight manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

I am wondering what the long-term repercussions for Boeing will be, because I am pretty certain there will be some...I am left wondering whether a part of the travelling public will now look at Boeing products with suspicion, and not because they might be inherently unsafe or anything, but simply because a crucial fault was addressed in such casual manner.
It pains me greatly to see one of the two greatest aircraft manufacturers approach what has turned to be a seriously critical and potentially lethal issue with one of their top products in such a shallow, non-committal, hush-hush kind of way. Big reality check for them as well as the public, AS WELL AS their customers... I expected far better of them - heck, They CAN do a lot better.

This also demonstrates that a cosy duopoly in the aviation market is not only unhealthy but potentially downright dangerous.


The buck stops at management level as much as they will try to shirk responsibility.

The whole thing is an utter disgrace and the way Boeing have handled the problem in such a cavalier way is atrocious. This isn't the Boeing I know and I csnt help this will end up being indirectly linked to how management are leading. Cost cutting, outsourcing etc. They all have knock on impacts.

If im a major shareholder im having serious chats with the chairman about whether i should have confidence in the culture of the company and whether it is changing to the detriment of the product. A product which has been world class for many many years.

In fact if I was an investor I may have already sold part or all my position.
 
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anfromme
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:20 am

DL717 wrote:
Yes, they are called incidents. From the beginning of aviation time.


No, they're not. ET302 and JT610 are quite definitely classified as accidents.

There is a marked difference between incidents and accidents in aviation speak. There is even the sub-category of "serious incident".
There are official definitions for this in the ICAO Convention on International Civil Aviation Annex 13.
http://www.aviation-accidents.net/accid ... incidents/

Basically, if somebody gets killed by the airplane or parts thereof, and/or if the aircraft sustains major damage, it's an accident.
An incident is an occurrence that doesn't qualify as an accident but that still affects or could affect the safety of operation.
A serious incident is an incident that very nearly could have been an accident.

JT610 and ET302 are thus classified as accidents, as is WN1380, by the way, as a passenger was killed by parts of the engine penetrating the fuselage.
An example of an incident would be JetBlue 292, while an example of a serious incident would be QF32.

DL717 wrote:
You don’t ground a fleet without data to back it up.

Except, yes, you sometimes do and it makes perfect sense as well, because, as you pointed out yourself, we're not talking about blame, we're talking about trying to find probable causes for an unusual series of events, which we of course do to ensure the safety of the flying public.
Comet has been cited as an example - but not even to the extent that it would be warranted in the context of calls to wait with any grounding until there is a definite cause identified.
The first and second Comet crash were roughly eight months apart, and BOAC actually did ground its fleet after that second crash, with de Havilland recommending about 60 changes to be made.
However, BOAC resumed flights before the cause had been identified for sure. About two weeks later, the third crash happened. We all know the story from there, of course.
42
 
vfw614
Posts: 3795
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:21 am

seahawk wrote:
If any machine shows a behaviour that requires user intervention and reality shows that users fail to deliver the required input, the man to machine interface is faulty.


First and foremost, the aircraft should not require any workaround like MCAS that prevents the design from falling out of the sky. The question about a poorly designed interface really is a follow-up question that should not have to asked at all. Aircraft are dangerous machines by the very nature of what they are doing and the number of features that will crash the aircraft if they fail should be kept at a minimum. You cannot design an airplane without wings, pylons, landing gear etc., but you can design aircraft without MCAS.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:22 am

vfw614 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Lion air is not a reliable operator. And now Boeing is paying the price. All the major reliable airlines like the plane and we’re happy. The US carriers aren’t for the grounding.


Reliable operators such as those that do engine changes with forklifts (United) or who have payed $19m in fines since 2000 for 293 violations of FAA rules since 2000 (Southwest) or who have flown airplanes without mandated repairs (Delta) etc. etc.?

Just google "maintenance", "[name of your preferred US airline]" and "fined" and you will be surprised what comes up...

United never did engine changes with forklifts, that was AA CO and I think WA and it was in 1979. Maybe you can attack KLMs 2019 pilot training for the 1977 accident
 
asdf
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:26 am

vfw614 wrote:
... Aircraft are dangerous machines by the very nature of what they are doing ....


well
not

if you design a bird based on aeronatical optimum its perfectly safe for the average driver
and yes you can bent it a bit to make it highly cost effectiv for its operator

but if you exaggerate it
its going to be a dangerous machine
 
vfw614
Posts: 3795
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:34 am

Washington Post insight into the deliberations at the White House:

In [Trump's] words, [the Boeing 737] “sucked.” The president said Boeing 737s paled in comparison to the Boeing 757, known as Trump Force One, which he owns as a personal jet, according to White House and transportation officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. He questioned why Boeing would keep building the model and opined that he never would have bought a 737 for the Trump Shuttle....
Last edited by vfw614 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 am

Based on what we know now

How long do you think it would have been until a third 737 Max crashed? Bearing in mind more were coming into operation each month and we know similar issues have occurred on flights that didnt crash

3 months, 6 months, 12 months?

Wonder how long they will all be grounded for?

I guess whilst they are all grounded there needs to be a huge amount of money directed to investigating the issues on the other flights now being reported rather than just on the two crashed flights

Surely we can learn a lot from those flights and the pilots impacted?

Maybe more than from the crashed flights as we've got live eye witnesses to say exactly what they saw, heard and had to intervene with
Last edited by Interested on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
anfromme
Posts: 883
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:36 am

DL717 wrote:
ytz wrote:
How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.

Which was already done during the cert process.

It seems you have an interesting view of what a granted type certificate actually means.
Airworthiness of any type is of course subject to review as incidents and accidents happen and as new information comes to light as experience is gained during daily operations of a type.
Hence the 787 grounding (despite the fact it had been certified airworthy), hence the Concorde grounding (dito), and hence the various airworthiness directives that operators and OEMs had to comply with to ensure the 787 and Concorde were classified as airworthy.
Certification is absolutely not a process that basically gives you a free-for-all once you are initially granted the type certificate. What follows is the process of keeping a type airworthy.
42
 
thaiflyer
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:55 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:40 am

777Jet wrote:

Disgusting that that particular faulty Lion Air aircraft was even allowed to fly...


If I remember correctly the plane was repaired according Boeing recommendation and procedures because it was back into service.
So there is nothing disgusting.
 
kruiseri
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:47 am

Is it too early to speculate with the following ?

What if the MAX cannot be fixed within the original design parameters ? ie. Same type rating as NG for the pilots ?

The MCAS is a vast difference from the NG. It obfuscates from the pilot the handling differences between the two types in certain phases of the flight. OK; you can add redundancy to it by adding multiple data sources like a third AoA vane etc, but it does not change the underlying fact that it is still a separate independent system that can always go haywire ==> pilots need to be trained for that possibility. And that means that they must be trained differently than NG pilots, would that then ruin the common type rating feature ?

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