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Magog
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:57 am

thaiflyer wrote:
777Jet wrote:

Disgusting that that particular faulty Lion Air aircraft was even allowed to fly...


If I remember correctly the plane was repaired according Boeing recommendation and procedures because it was back into service.
So there is nothing disgusting.

Actually, 777Jet has made a somewhat compelling argument that Boeing’s recommendations and procedures were “disgusting.”
 
ELBOB
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:58 am

ltbewr wrote:
I wonder why this problem wasn't seen during the flight testing. Not every pilot will be as skilled as the test pilots at Boeing (or any plane maker) or the pilots of planes in service who took the proper corrective actions to deal with the problem.


I think you answered your own question. Certification requires that the aircraft be manageable by "crews of average skill", but is performed by test pilots of above-average skill. If airline pilots were randomly picked for a round of testing, or test pilots from a rival manufacturer invited, then a lot more issues would be shaken-out before service entry. But that would cost time and time is money and money is the priority.
 
markalot
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:25 am

For me, the problem seems extremely simple. Never ever rely on software to override a pilot input. Sensors cannot replace a human brain, unless you can show that the sensor array and associated software can accurately access their own condition. Even then, why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to override pilot input. What problem did this software / sensor solution solve?
M a r k
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:26 am

robsaw wrote:
ytz wrote:

How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.


We aren't talking about individual civil rights here - and characterizing it in terms of privileges or rights is deflecting it away from rational analysis as is the "getting it" statement (pure emotion). What the right to operate an aircraft is ... is a regulated authority that is granted or suspended/rescinded in accordance with a complex regime using evidence-based criteria at either end of that "or" decision. Anything else is simply arbitrary behaviour.


Arbitrary to you. Reasonably precautious to the rest of us. And that's my point. It's fully within the rights of regulators to turn on or shutoff access to airspace.

I work in an office that does airworthiness stuff. We might grant an occasional special flight permit. Or experimental flight permit. And we make prima facie calls all the time. You can call that "arbitrary". I call that reasonable and informed judgement. If something I signed lawndarts it's my tail and conscience on the line.

Guess what? Not one guy in my office on Monday morning thought the fleet shouldn't be grounded just based on what we knew about the similarity of the crashes. And we were all appalled that Garneau didn't do it right away.

Maybe Americans just have a different tolerance for risking lives than the rest of us.
 
ytz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:31 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ytz wrote:
Poor training or proficiency isn't likely to result in two crews reporting airspeed or altitude indication errors and controllability problems and then crashing the aircraft in the same phase of flight with approximately the same attitude.

What's the probability of something like that being just crap training or skill? And if that's what you're going to argue than we need to discuss severely restricting Boeing's sales. How many would like that? I know I wouldn't.

You shouldn't need both crew to be test pilots to fly a commercial airliner. And if that's the level of skill involved, then the issue isn't the crew, it's the OEM.

At this point, it's hard to see folks dismissing all contextual similarities and just blaming the crews, as nothing but trolls.


You consider people asking you to wait for the results of the investigation before assigning blame to be trolls?


Yes. Especially when those same folks who say, "wait for the investigation" are the same lot constantly insinuating that it was maintenance or crew competency and therefore grounding is not warranted.

If you truly believe in waiting for results, you would not have said a thing about any other factor.

Incidentally, as someone who actually works in certification (albeit on the military side), I see zero reason to wait. We make judgement calls based on similarity of incidents all the time. And these two were too damn similar to ignore.
Last edited by ytz on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:32 am

DL717 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
remcor wrote:
Great informed article from Air Facts here:
The certification concept for relying on the human involves identification of a failure, and a reaction time. The way it works is that the pilot must be able to recognize the failure, then take three seconds to analyze what is wrong, and then take corrective action before the airplane flies into a critical condition...."


This kind of puff pieces will cause more damage than good. Seriously, blaming human pilots.


He’s actually talking about aircraft architecture design around the pilot.


Did the world miss the memo? Designs always considered the human element. What has changed?
All posts are just opinions.
 
Magog
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:34 am

777Jet wrote:

My understanding is that the AOA sensor fix was done in Bali after the 3rd last flight. Then there were serious issues experienced early on the 2nd last flight from Bali to Jakarta causing the crew to call Pan Pan to ATC yet later decide to continue the flight. Then there was the last Flight?.

All good evidence that Boeing’s “fix” was entirely inadequate. But that’s what happens when you are dealing with third world airplane manufacturers. Oh... wait...
 
Olddog
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:39 am

It is reported here on TV that the black boxes were sent to the French Bureau Enquete Accident.
 
GmvAfcs
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:54 am

markalot wrote:
For me, the problem seems extremely simple. Never ever rely on software to override a pilot input. Sensors cannot replace a human brain, unless you can show that the sensor array and associated software can accurately access their own condition. Even then, why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to override pilot input. What problem did this software / sensor solution solve?


All modern aircraft nowadays are Fly-by-Wire with software and sensors. Most of them have cutout switches to disable the automations returning full control to the flight crew. The 737MAX, although not Fly-by-Wire, has a cutout switch to disable the pitch trim automation. Therefore, it all goes to failure recognition and reaction time.
 
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keesje
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:55 am

777Jet wrote:

So, what was fixed in Jakarta after the 2nd last flight? Was the aircraft airworthy when operating JT610?


I sense some misunderstanding. If drive away with my backlight broken, I'm not driveworthy. If two streets down the block the steering wheel breaks off & I hit another car, the steering wheel is still at fault. Despite me not being driveworthy. No free passes in safety.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
N47
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:10 pm

SuperGee wrote:
Right now, the FAA only has an acting director, Michael Herta for the past 2 years. I don’t know anything about him. He may be very good in that job or he may not be.


Michael Huerta was the administrator of the FAA from 1/2011 to 1/2018. It is Dan Elwell who is the current acting administrator.

In another note:

Its not a secret that FAA works very closely with its stake holders, of which the most important is the flying public, followed by ATC/operators, aircraft manufacturers etc. However, some of what has been suggested on this thread goes a little too far in terms of politics.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:12 pm

jeepyjeep wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
WN1374 just arrived PHX-MSP and the flight out to DEN is canceled.


There is also a blizzard happening in Denver right now including gusts up to 70MPH. I live here.



Flooding in MN.

Anyway, WN doesn't keep any spares at MSP, obviously, so this would have been canceled regardless of the weather in DEN.
 
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OA940
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:14 pm

Interested wrote:
Based on what we know now

How long do you think it would have been until a third 737 Max crashed? Bearing in mind more were coming into operation each month and we know similar issues have occurred on flights that didnt crash

3 months, 6 months, 12 months?

Wonder how long they will all be grounded for?

I guess whilst they are all grounded there needs to be a huge amount of money directed to investigating the issues on the other flights now being reported rather than just on the two crashed flights

Surely we can learn a lot from those flights and the pilots impacted?

Maybe more than from the crashed flights as we've got live eye witnesses to say exactly what they saw, heard and had to intervene with


They'll be grounded until the ET302 investigation either reveals that the accident wasn't related all that much to JT610, or when the opposite is discovered and Boeing comes up with a fix. The second is more likely, but both are probable. Either way airlines will be seeking compensation and Boeing is bound to lose a few orders.
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Gonzalo
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:19 pm

I can not understand the attitude of some members who claim this grounding is a political decision without any technical background to support the decision. Air travel is by far the most safe and efficient way of travel precisely because the safety first culture and the redundancy of critical systems, this is the standard in the industry today precisely after several decades of accidents and learning process as a result of those tragedies. I can't imagine a single person - with common sense - thinking all Boeing products are unsafe or refusing to fly a Dreamliner or a 737NG due to this grounding. Yes, this grounding will be a big hit in the Boeing histroy, yes, will cause a big damage financially and will make the present times hard, but even if this investigations end in the worst case scencario, this is, both recent crashes being Boeing's responsibility, even then, this will have a positive result : the future decisions regarding design or implementation of new systems will be taken more carefully, improving the overall safety of the industry.
I was very critic about the soft response by Boeing in the first hours after the ET tragedy, I still think they could handle the situation better, but that being said, I will fly any Boeing product in the future, including the MAX, once this investigations/conclusions/improvements process are completed.

This worldwide grounding was the correct decision, no matter by whom or how the decision was made.

Rgds.
G.
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:25 pm

Magog wrote:
777Jet wrote:

My understanding is that the AOA sensor fix was done in Bali after the 3rd last flight. Then there were serious issues experienced early on the 2nd last flight from Bali to Jakarta causing the crew to call Pan Pan to ATC yet later decide to continue the flight. Then there was the last Flight?.

All good evidence that Boeing’s “fix” was entirely inadequate. But that’s what happens when you are dealing with third world airplane manufacturers. Oh... wait...


That you missed the point comes as no surprise. What kind of airline dispatches an aircraft that still behaves in a way that required a fix just one flight earlier? A dodgy airline. The fix obviously did not solve the issue yet the plane was still sent flying full of people. Whether or not the fix is inadequate or they diagnosed the problem incorrectly, there is no excuse for dispatching that aircraft.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:30 pm

777Jet wrote:
...
So, what was fixed in Jakarta after the 2nd last flight? Was the aircraft airworthy when operating JT610?


Hypothetical scenario.

First world airline, Goldcare maintenance, on initial climb out bird strike destroys the single active or both AoA sensor(s), what happens???

Whether it is a bad batch part or improper installation, failure of one sensor should not result in a crash.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:35 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:

I said this earlier in the thread but Boeing (and Airbus for that matter) will sell aircraft to whoever will pay for them.

It appears that Boeing at best did not adequately notify airlines/pilots of MCAS or at worst made a faulty system. That's not Lion Air's fault, its Boeing's. NEO success forced Boeing into putting out the MAX and perhaps they may have taken the 737 one step too far. If (and I'm saying if because we don't know) MCAS is to blame in both incidents at the end of the day Boeing designed the planes to do that.

Are you going to blame ANA and JAL for 787 battery trouble?


False: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... air-crash/

How on earth is this statement false? Did you even read the article that you posted? Boeing didn't say a damn thing about it UNTIL AFTER Lion Air crashed. Southwest and American pilots were not happy that they were unaware of it.


I see. So now they are psychic? They need to issue directives before an incident to prevent the incident? Sure.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
slider
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:36 pm

Interested wrote:
Interested wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
The stick shaker and stick pusher are using the same AOA sensor. If the sensor is faulty, we would be getting reports of the stick shaker and pusher activating on 737 max flights. Yet, there hasn't been a single one.


Documents reveal that pilots flying last November reported engaging autopilot only for the aircraft's nose to pitch lower, prompting the warning system to exclaim: "Don't sink! Don't sink!"
Two US pilots reported separate incidents involving the 737 Max's automatic anti-stalling system in November.
The feature, which was new to the 737 Max family, is designed to keep the plane from stalling.
The system prevents the aircraft from pointing upwards at too high an angle, where it could lose its lift.
However, according to filings with the US Aviation Safety Reporting System, which pilots use to disclose information anonymously, it appeared to force the nose down.
In both cases, pilots were forced to intervene to stop the plane from descending.

From BBC news


Please note that's just two reports from the US reporting system

I wonder how many more times this has occurred around the world?

I note they are allowed to report things anonymously!


Because journalists don't pore over the NASA ASRS database. Just because it wasn't in the public light doesn't imply some conspiracy, to be clear. It's technical and industry-specific info that would have no reason to really come to light given the volume of reports they receive.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:44 pm

ltbewr wrote:
I wonder why this problem wasn't seen during the flight testing. Not every pilot will be as skilled as the test pilots at Boeing (or any plane maker) or the pilots of planes in service who took the proper corrective actions to deal with the problem.


Question of the day. Maybe it’s not the MCAS. Maybe it’s a bad batch of components.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Alfons
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:53 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
both recent crashes being Boeing's responsibility, even then, this will have a positive result : the future decisions regarding design or implementation of new systems will be taken more carefully, improving the overall safety of the industry.


Boeing is since - sensed - 100 years in this business. 347 human beings, of any age, died. This shouldn't have happened from the beginning. The only result this is giving, is a perceiption to us that market competitivity and the fight for this little additional + in the financial numbers is pushing companies even in very safety driven industries to do workarounds to achieve them, at the expense of the customers who every time he/she is consuming his product, he/she is putting his/her life in his hands and trusts the product blindly.

I don't know if things changed in this industry lately, maybe I was only naiv all those last years and didn't realize that. But for sure I will take more care now what I consume from this industry, price tag independently. And I guess many more will do now the same.

Alfons
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:59 pm

777Jet wrote:
Magog wrote:
777Jet wrote:

My understanding is that the AOA sensor fix was done in Bali after the 3rd last flight. Then there were serious issues experienced early on the 2nd last flight from Bali to Jakarta causing the crew to call Pan Pan to ATC yet later decide to continue the flight. Then there was the last Flight?.

All good evidence that Boeing’s “fix” was entirely inadequate. But that’s what happens when you are dealing with third world airplane manufacturers. Oh... wait...


That you missed the point comes as no surprise. What kind of airline dispatches an aircraft that still behaves in a way that required a fix just one flight earlier? A dodgy airline. The fix obviously did not solve the issue yet the plane was still sent flying full of people. Whether or not the fix is inadequate or they diagnosed the problem incorrectly, there is no excuse for dispatching that aircraft.

Your way off base using your logic no repaired airplane would ever fly.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:00 pm

anfromme wrote:
DL717 wrote:
ytz wrote:
How do people still not get this? Flying in a given airspace is a privilege. Not a right. As such the burden of proof to show that the aircraft is safe enough to operate in a given airspace falls on the OEM.

Which was already done during the cert process.

It seems you have an interesting view of what a granted type certificate actually means.
Airworthiness of any type is of course subject to review as incidents and accidents happen and as new information comes to light as experience is gained during daily operations of a type.
Hence the 787 grounding (despite the fact it had been certified airworthy), hence the Concorde grounding (dito), and hence the various airworthiness directives that operators and OEMs had to comply with to ensure the 787 and Concorde were classified as airworthy.
Certification is absolutely not a process that basically gives you a free-for-all once you are initially granted the type certificate. What follows is the process of keeping a type airworthy.


No I’m quite clear on the subject matter. You don’t just ground a certified aircraft because of public opinion. If you don’t have data to back up a problem, it fly’s until you do, which the FAA captured yesterday. Maybe the data should have been delivered to the FAA sooner instead of being sent to a third party. But hey, some people would rather play politics.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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DL717
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:02 pm

Alfons wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
both recent crashes being Boeing's responsibility, even then, this will have a positive result : the future decisions regarding design or implementation of new systems will be taken more carefully, improving the overall safety of the industry.


Boeing is since - sensed - 100 years in this business. 347 human beings, of any age, died. This shouldn't have happened from the beginning. The only result this is giving, is a perceiption to us that market competitivity and the fight for this little additional + in the financial numbers is pushing companies even in very safety driven industries to do workarounds to achieve them, at the expense of the customers who every time he/she is consuming his product, he/she is putting his/her life in his hands and trusts the product blindly.

I don't know if things changed in this industry lately, maybe I was only naiv all those last years and didn't realize that. But for sure I will take more care now what I consume from this industry, price tag independently. And I guess many more will do now the same.

Alfons


If this shouldn’t have happened from the beginning, then ground everything flying right now from all manufacturers. No manufacturer can ever predict every potential system failure. It’s a machine. Aviation carries inherent risk. Flying has become so safe and common place that people forget this very fact.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Alfons
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:08 pm

DL717 wrote:
Alfons wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
both recent crashes being Boeing's responsibility, even then, this will have a positive result : the future decisions regarding design or implementation of new systems will be taken more carefully, improving the overall safety of the industry.


Boeing is since - sensed - 100 years in this business. 347 human beings, of any age, died. This shouldn't have happened from the beginning. The only result this is giving, is a perceiption to us that market competitivity and the fight for this little additional + in the financial numbers is pushing companies even in very safety driven industries to do workarounds to achieve them, at the expense of the customers who every time he/she is consuming his product, he/she is putting his/her life in his hands and trusts the product blindly.

I don't know if things changed in this industry lately, maybe I was only naiv all those last years and didn't realize that. But for sure I will take more care now what I consume from this industry, price tag independently. And I guess many more will do now the same.

Alfons


If this shouldn’t have happened from the beginning, then ground everything flying right now from all manufacturers. No manufacturer can ever predict every potential system failure. It’s a machine.


you answer to the wrong context, but that's ok, I maybe wasn't clear. With "this" I didn't mean the system failure, as a _single_ system failure can always happen.
 
asdf
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:14 pm

777Jet wrote:
What kind of airline dispatches an aircraft that still behaves in a way that required a fix just one flight earlier? A dodgy airline. The fix obviously did not solve the issue yet the plane was still sent flying full of people. Whether or not the fix is inadequate or they diagnosed the problem incorrectly, there is no excuse for dispatching that aircraft.


as by the last reports the repair was done by the boeing MX handbook
dont know if or how there have been special checks to dispatch it
but if there have been none or if they have been made by the book and have been successful
there is nothing MX could have done more as they already did
 
cledaybuck
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:28 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Washington Post insight into the deliberations at the White House:

In [Trump's] words, [the Boeing 737] “sucked.” The president said Boeing 737s paled in comparison to the Boeing 757, known as Trump Force One, which he owns as a personal jet, according to White House and transportation officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. He questioned why Boeing would keep building the model and opined that he never would have bought a 737 for the Trump Shuttle....

Good lord. This doesn’t make me feel good.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
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777Jet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Magog wrote:
All good evidence that Boeing’s “fix” was entirely inadequate. But that’s what happens when you are dealing with third world airplane manufacturers. Oh... wait...


That you missed the point comes as no surprise. What kind of airline dispatches an aircraft that still behaves in a way that required a fix just one flight earlier? A dodgy airline. The fix obviously did not solve the issue yet the plane was still sent flying full of people. Whether or not the fix is inadequate or they diagnosed the problem incorrectly, there is no excuse for dispatching that aircraft.

Your way off base using your logic no repaired airplane would ever fly.


Bollocks. Repairs fix problems. That problem still existed. That plane still gave passengers a rollercoaster ride after an attempted repair in Bali. Yet instead of being looked at again, it was allowed to knowingly operate another flight... What was done to that aircraft in Jakarta?

I don't know about you intelligent folks, but if my car has a problem, I take it to a mechanic. If they return it to me and the problem still persists, I take it back (or to a different mechsnic) and tell them to fix it. I don't just drive around with the problem persisting.
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tomin203
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 pm

Can an empty 737 Max 8 be flown (no passengers)? For Example - from LGA to DFW to access better service or more space to park it?
 
Sancho99504
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:44 pm

DL717 wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

How on earth is this statement false? Did you even read the article that you posted? Boeing didn't say a damn thing about it UNTIL AFTER Lion Air crashed. Southwest and American pilots were not happy that they were unaware of it.


I see. So now they are psychic? They need to issue directives before an incident to prevent the incident? Sure.



There had been multiple complaints about the airplane pitching down uncommanded prior to the Lion Air crash. Boeing had an opportunity to address it prior to the first crash. The fact is, Boeing knew they had an AOA sensor issue AND a problem with MCAS prior to anyone dying. WN pilots have been rather vocal that MCAS troubleshooting was not part of the manual.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:48 pm

tomin203 wrote:
Can an empty 737 Max 8 be flown (no passengers)? For Example - from LGA to DFW to access better service or more space to park it?


Ferry flights and test flights would be allowed. Without test flights, Boeing cannot test the fix.
All posts are just opinions.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:16 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
There had been multiple complaints about the airplane pitching down uncommanded prior to the Lion Air crash. Boeing had an opportunity to address it prior to the first crash. The fact is, Boeing knew they had an AOA sensor issue AND a problem with MCAS prior to anyone dying. WN pilots have been rather vocal that MCAS troubleshooting was not part of the manual.


Be careful not to assume that they were factual incidents that can be documented.

Sadly there's plenty of hate for certain airplanes among pilots.
 
Boof02671
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:19 pm

There were five ASAP filed with NASA for over 100,000 flight hours.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:44 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
There had been multiple complaints about the airplane pitching down uncommanded prior to the Lion Air crash. Boeing had an opportunity to address it prior to the first crash. The fact is, Boeing knew they had an AOA sensor issue AND a problem with MCAS prior to anyone dying. WN pilots have been rather vocal that MCAS troubleshooting was not part of the manual.


Be careful not to assume that they were factual incidents that can be documented.

Sadly there's plenty of hate for certain airplanes among pilots.

There are 2 documented incidents reported in the NASA database peior to the Lion Air crash. It has been documented.

I highly doubt that a group of pilots dislike a particular type that they would collude to making fictitious statements to a reporting agency in an effort to ground it.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Sancho99504
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:45 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
There were five ASAP filed with NASA for over 100,000 flight hours.

Which includes the 2 filed prior to the Lion Air crash.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
MSPNWA
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:48 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
There are 2 documented incidents reported in the NASA database peior to the Lion Air crash. It has been documented.

I highly doubt that a group of pilots dislike a particular type that they would collude to making fictitious statements to a reporting agency in an effort to ground it.


No, those are not documented incidents. Again, be careful not to assume those were factual events than can be documented.

Go talk to pilots. You wouldn't believe the opinions for and against certain types are.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:51 pm

DL717 wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
I wonder why this problem wasn't seen during the flight testing. Not every pilot will be as skilled as the test pilots at Boeing (or any plane maker) or the pilots of planes in service who took the proper corrective actions to deal with the problem.


Question of the day. Maybe it’s not the MCAS. Maybe it’s a bad batch of components.

Just to add, the GTF and Leap didn't show any problems during certification either. Once they hit real world service though....

For consideration, how many sensors come in a batch? If it is a supplier issued problem, how many aircraft in total have faulty equipment and, if found to be the primary culprit, will an AD be issued to address the aircraft with the bad batch or all aircraft with that brand of sensor?
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
markalot
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:07 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:57 pm

GmvAfcs wrote:
markalot wrote:
For me, the problem seems extremely simple. Never ever rely on software to override a pilot input. Sensors cannot replace a human brain, unless you can show that the sensor array and associated software can accurately access their own condition. Even then, why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to override pilot input. What problem did this software / sensor solution solve?


All modern aircraft nowadays are Fly-by-Wire with software and sensors. Most of them have cutout switches to disable the automations returning full control to the flight crew. The 737MAX, although not Fly-by-Wire, has a cutout switch to disable the pitch trim automation. Therefore, it all goes to failure recognition and reaction time.


Can anyone explain why a cutout switch is a good idea. The pilot is wrestling with the controls, not looking for a switch. It seems obvious human factors were not a consideration here. In other words, auto correction is fine but either the cutout switch is a big fat red button, like hazards on most cars, or simply pulling back on the stick is enough. The very idea a pilot is wrestling with the controls of a new aircraft in good condition other than a sensor, is just crazy.

Bad analogy, if traffic slows rapidly in front of me I hit the brakes first, then look for the hazard button to help alert drivers behind me. What if my car was automated, and front sensor was bad, and the computer was trying to prevent a rear collision not knowing that there were cars in front of me. I hit the brakes, the car does not slow down. Now I need to search for the auto cutoff switch (I have an anti-slip switch down by my knees) and I have to do this while trying to avoid an accident as I approach the cars in front of me at high speeds.
M a r k
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2279
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:01 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
There are 2 documented incidents reported in the NASA database peior to the Lion Air crash. It has been documented.

I highly doubt that a group of pilots dislike a particular type that they would collude to making fictitious statements to a reporting agency in an effort to ground it.


No, those are not documented incidents. Again, be careful not to assume those were factual events than can be documented.

Go talk to pilots. You wouldn't believe the opinions for and against certain types are.

Filing a false ASAP with NASA is a federal offense.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 1352
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:26 pm

The CVR and FDR are now with the French BEA for analysis. Apparently, no statements will be issued by them and the results of the analysis will be handed back to the Ethiopian authorities. So we will have to wait for the Ethiopians for the official crash investigation report.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1QV0WN

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethio ... KKCN1QV1SG
 
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keesje
Posts: 14104
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:47 pm

flee wrote:
The CVR and FDR are now with the French BEA for analysis. Apparently, no statements will be issued by them and the results of the analysis will be handed back to the Ethiopian authorities. So we will have to wait for the Ethiopians for the official crash investigation report.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1QV0WN

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ethio ... KKCN1QV1SG


Good just read out, process and send back. At that stage it can be shares to all relevant specialist, even the public.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1587
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:47 pm

It will be leaked...
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:49 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
I can not understand the attitude of some members who claim this grounding is a political decision without any technical background to support the decision. Air travel is by far the most safe and efficient way of travel precisely because the safety first culture and the redundancy of critical systems, this is the standard in the industry today precisely after several decades of accidents and learning process as a result of those tragedies. I can't imagine a single person - with common sense - thinking all Boeing products are unsafe or refusing to fly a Dreamliner or a 737NG due to this grounding. Yes, this grounding will be a big hit in the Boeing histroy, yes, will cause a big damage financially and will make the present times hard, but even if this investigations end in the worst case scencario, this is, both recent crashes being Boeing's responsibility, even then, this will have a positive result : the future decisions regarding design or implementation of new systems will be taken more carefully, improving the overall safety of the industry.
I was very critic about the soft response by Boeing in the first hours after the ET tragedy, I still think they could handle the situation better, but that being said, I will fly any Boeing product in the future, including the MAX, once this investigations/conclusions/improvements process are completed.

This worldwide grounding was the correct decision, no matter by whom or how the decision was made.

Rgds.
G.

Grounding was the right decision. No matter what, some folks won't be convinced; rest of us will have to just ignore them and move on. The most amazing part is when some folks say "media furor and social media frenzy put pressure on authorities to ground the plane". This is pretty much like a very popular person currently in the WH dismissing anything as "FAKE NEWS" if he doesn't agree with it or does not understand the logic behind it. Social media pressure is the dumbest excuse i have heard being given as the basis of grounding!!!
Last edited by 747megatop on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:55 pm

Wallhart wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
From the BBC website:

'Criminally insufficient'
After the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued guidance on what to do regarding erroneous readings from the sensor, which sends out information about what angle a plane is flying at.
But another pilot said that "it did nothing" to address the problems with the sensor.
They said: "I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models.
They added: "I am left to wonder: what else don't I know? The flight manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

I am wondering what the long-term repercussions for Boeing will be, because I am pretty certain there will be some...I am left wondering whether a part of the travelling public will now look at Boeing products with suspicion, and not because they might be inherently unsafe or anything, but simply because a crucial fault was addressed in such casual manner.
It pains me greatly to see one of the two greatest aircraft manufacturers approach what has turned to be a seriously critical and potentially lethal issue with one of their top products in such a shallow, non-committal, hush-hush kind of way. Big reality check for them as well as the public, AS WELL AS their customers... I expected far better of them - heck, They CAN do a lot better.

This also demonstrates that a cosy duopoly in the aviation market is not only unhealthy but potentially downright dangerous.


The buck stops at management level as much as they will try to shirk responsibility.

The whole thing is an utter disgrace and the way Boeing have handled the problem in such a cavalier way is atrocious. This isn't the Boeing I know and I csnt help this will end up being indirectly linked to how management are leading. Cost cutting, outsourcing etc. They all have knock on impacts.

If im a major shareholder im having serious chats with the chairman about whether i should have confidence in the culture of the company and whether it is changing to the detriment of the product. A product which has been world class for many many years.

In fact if I was an investor I may have already sold part or all my position.

Boeing seems to be in the unique position of having had 2 types grounded; 1st the 787 and now the 737-MAX. Let's hope they don't make this a habit.
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2580
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:59 pm

747megatop wrote:
Wallhart wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
From the BBC website:

'Criminally insufficient'
After the Lion Air crash, Boeing issued guidance on what to do regarding erroneous readings from the sensor, which sends out information about what angle a plane is flying at.
But another pilot said that "it did nothing" to address the problems with the sensor.
They said: "I think it is unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models.
They added: "I am left to wonder: what else don't I know? The flight manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient."

I am wondering what the long-term repercussions for Boeing will be, because I am pretty certain there will be some...I am left wondering whether a part of the travelling public will now look at Boeing products with suspicion, and not because they might be inherently unsafe or anything, but simply because a crucial fault was addressed in such casual manner.
It pains me greatly to see one of the two greatest aircraft manufacturers approach what has turned to be a seriously critical and potentially lethal issue with one of their top products in such a shallow, non-committal, hush-hush kind of way. Big reality check for them as well as the public, AS WELL AS their customers... I expected far better of them - heck, They CAN do a lot better.

This also demonstrates that a cosy duopoly in the aviation market is not only unhealthy but potentially downright dangerous.


The buck stops at management level as much as they will try to shirk responsibility.

The whole thing is an utter disgrace and the way Boeing have handled the problem in such a cavalier way is atrocious. This isn't the Boeing I know and I csnt help this will end up being indirectly linked to how management are leading. Cost cutting, outsourcing etc. They all have knock on impacts.

If im a major shareholder im having serious chats with the chairman about whether i should have confidence in the culture of the company and whether it is changing to the detriment of the product. A product which has been world class for many many years.

In fact if I was an investor I may have already sold part or all my position.

Boeing seems to be in the unique position of having had 2 types grounded; 1st the 787 and now the 737-MAX. Let's hope they don't make this a habit.


I hope not, but on the other hand we should de-stigmatize a "cautionary grounding". In this regard Boeing should have behaved much more maturely, and immediately propose themselves a grounding of the MAX variant. Thing is, at the end of the day, the MAX was going to end up grounded anyway [it was pretty evident from the onset], and they should/could have handled this a lot better. This is not only proving to be a technical nightmare (with seemingly financial and image repercussions), but also a PR disaster - which was ultimately not necessary.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:14 pm

Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:17 pm

dc10lover wrote:


I think that's a data anomaly. The inbound flight to Chicago was a B737. Probably replacement equipment, but data didn't get updated.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:17 pm

dc10lover wrote:


That's actually a 737-800 registration N8651A
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2728
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:18 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
dc10lover wrote:


Fair to say Flightaware has the wrong aircraft type listed.

The Max's are being allowed to be ferried to airline's maintenance bases.

AA appears to be moving their birds to Tulsa.

Not sure where Southwest big MX bases are other then DAL and HOU.

I am curious if Boeing can keep up pre delivery flights for the multitude
of Max's piling up at Renton and Boeing Field?
 
CO953
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:24 pm

I haven't seen this question asked:

Is Boeing going to just keep on cranking out and storing new MAX airframes, potentially with flaws (AOA, extra sensors, etc.) that may later need to be corrected? Or would there logically be a production pause?
 
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Veigar
Posts: 533
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:25 pm

Not sure if posted before, but WN released a video regarding this:

https://youtu.be/XZypk-1HZGs

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