Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

This same article states "the pilots from both unions said that they were certain that they could keep flying the plane safely, even without simulators", but now it's a big issue. All the finger pointing won't bring any of these souls back to life, but journalists and "aviation experts" keep saying I told you so, despite nobody saying a word until after the Ethiopian crash...at least not publicly. Now everyone is looking to make a name for themselves or be the white knight that saved millions of people from death. The Max has flown over 10,000 flights in different parts of the world in the first two years of service, and within that time frame, there have been two fatal crashes of this aircraft. There is still no conclusion to why either crash happened, just pure speculation. The airlines, FAA, Boeing are siding with public opinion because it is in their best interest. The public opinion is caused by articles like these and the mass amounts of social media junk that puts everybody in a state of fear. The cause of the crash(s) will eventually be understood and there will be mandates. There will be a software update for the MAX before that happens. There will be mandatory training for all pilots operating the MAX before that happens. There will be a lifting of the ban and all these MAX's will fly in the sky again, and you know what? There will be another crash in the future of a MAX for whatever reason. It is just the law of averages. That many planes in service and there is bound to be more incidents that occur, and when they do occur, it will be this same hysteria all over again.


Oh yes hysteria, just like the old 737 rudder hard over problem how many lives were lost while Boeing and all their superfans were in denial and blaming pilots for that? If the plane was grounded that may have concentrated Boeing mind to fix the problem sooner.

That was Parker-Hanaford issue the manufacturer of the PCU, not Boeing.


If something goes wrong on an airplane produced by Boeing, it is a Boeing issue.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
BoeingVista wrote:

Oh yes hysteria, just like the old 737 rudder hard over problem how many lives were lost while Boeing and all their superfans were in denial and blaming pilots for that? If the plane was grounded that may have concentrated Boeing mind to fix the problem sooner.

That was Parker-Hanaford issue the manufacturer of the PCU, not Boeing.


If something goes wrong on an airplane produced by Boeing, it is a Boeing issue.

The courts and reality state different. But hey don’t let the facts get in your way.


http://old.post-gazette.com/businessnew ... 0629p3.asp

“A federal jury yesterday ruled that Ohio-based Parker-Hannifin Corp. was liable for the 1994 crash of USAir Flight 427 in Beaver County because of a design defect in the hydraulic valve that controlled the rudder.

The jury also said Boeing, which designed and built the 737, is also partially liable for the crash.

After listening to nearly a month of testimony and then deliberating for about two days, the jury rejected Parker-Hannifin's chief defense that the co-pilot caused the accident by stepping on the wrong rudder pedal and stalling the plane.

The jury said Parker-Hannifin is 75 percent liable for the crash and Boeing 25 percent liable, but an actual dollar award was not discussed and may not become public.”
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
Oh yes hysteria, just like the old 737 rudder hard over problem how many lives were lost while Boeing and all their superfans were in denial and blaming pilots for that? If the plane was grounded that may have concentrated Boeing mind to fix the problem sooner.


Boeing has a tendency to be publicly disinterested and absent from their products crashing.
Is that due the unholy influence of corporate lawyers? A cultural thing?
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19044
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:04 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
I don’t trust the Ethiopian Authorities nor the Airline CEO.

And the Article stated the French Authorities didn’t listen to the CVR and turned it over to the Ethiopian Authorities.


Who would you trust?

The French were asked to extract the data. Why would you expect them to listen to it?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1690
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:08 pm

Andy33 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The Data has been read and turned over to the Ethiopian Authorities, I wonder when it will be publicly released and will it be totally truthful.

Well, who exactly is going to lie, and why would they think they could get away with it at this stage?
Bear in mind that the investigation is led by Ethiopia, but Boeing and the US NTSB have observer status.
So you'd have to assume a conspiracy between all parties to rig publicly released data. What possible set of claimed accident causes would simultaneously place no responsibility on either the airline, or the pilots, or Boeing ?

You wouldn’t think so, but we just had a big controversy on where the data was going to be read based on not trusting certain authorities, so it seems everyone is a little paranoid.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I don’t trust the Ethiopian Authorities nor the Airline CEO.

And the Article stated the French Authorities didn’t listen to the CVR and turned it over to the Ethiopian Authorities.


Who would you trust?

The French were asked to extract the data. Why would you expect them to listen to it?

That’s what their equivalent of the NTSB would do.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19044
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I don’t trust the Ethiopian Authorities nor the Airline CEO.

And the Article stated the French Authorities didn’t listen to the CVR and turned it over to the Ethiopian Authorities.


Who would you trust?

The French were asked to extract the data. Why would you expect them to listen to it?

That’s what their equivalent of the NTSB would do.


They've done the job they were asked to do. Nothing more, nothing less. The Ethiopian authorities did not delegate the entire investigation to the BEA, just the extraction of data from the CVR & FDR.

Boeing and the NTSB are still involved in the investigation, your lack of trust is misplaced. I'll get concerned when Boeing and the NTSB complain they're being denied their rightful access.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
YoungDon
Posts: 645
Joined: Thu May 31, 2001 9:33 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:26 pm

All this talk of not trusting the French or the Ethiopians, with zero evidence that either entity isn't worthy of trust, is simply xenophobic excuse-making in my view. Essentially, if the investigation ends up implicating Boeing in some way it won't take long for these people to cry "conspiracy"!

Boeing is observing the investigation and the French have done this before. It's clearly silly season right now where folks are actually implying that the accident investigators would lie as a way to stick it to Boeing and/or the US.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9386
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
That was Parker-Hanaford issue the manufacturer of the PCU, not Boeing.


If something goes wrong on an airplane produced by Boeing, it is a Boeing issue.

The courts and reality state different. But hey don’t let the facts get in your way.


http://old.post-gazette.com/businessnew ... 0629p3.asp

“A federal jury yesterday ruled that Ohio-based Parker-Hannifin Corp. was liable for the 1994 crash of USAir Flight 427 in Beaver County because of a design defect in the hydraulic valve that controlled the rudder.

The jury also said Boeing, which designed and built the 737, is also partially liable for the crash.

After listening to nearly a month of testimony and then deliberating for about two days, the jury rejected Parker-Hannifin's chief defense that the co-pilot caused the accident by stepping on the wrong rudder pedal and stalling the plane.

The jury said Parker-Hannifin is 75 percent liable for the crash and Boeing 25 percent liable, but an actual dollar award was not discussed and may not become public.”


And where in your quote is the statement that exempts Boeing from blame?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4119
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:00 pm

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:15 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

If something goes wrong on an airplane produced by Boeing, it is a Boeing issue.

The courts and reality state different. But hey don’t let the facts get in your way.


http://old.post-gazette.com/businessnew ... 0629p3.asp

“A federal jury yesterday ruled that Ohio-based Parker-Hannifin Corp. was liable for the 1994 crash of USAir Flight 427 in Beaver County because of a design defect in the hydraulic valve that controlled the rudder.

The jury also said Boeing, which designed and built the 737, is also partially liable for the crash.

After listening to nearly a month of testimony and then deliberating for about two days, the jury rejected Parker-Hannifin's chief defense that the co-pilot caused the accident by stepping on the wrong rudder pedal and stalling the plane.

The jury said Parker-Hannifin is 75 percent liable for the crash and Boeing 25 percent liable, but an actual dollar award was not discussed and may not become public.”


And where in your quote is the statement that exempts Boeing from blame?

Never stated they were blameless, showing the poster how PH a component manufacturer was 75% liable in the PCU fault, where the poster blamed Boeing as the plane manufacturer.
 
User avatar
kmz
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:55 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:21 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.


I wonder how this will affect MAX certification in China. MAX certification there was already initially delayed. Now there might be an additional trust problem between both authorities
 
MrBretz
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:23 pm

Heinkel wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
I like Boeing for a variety of reasons. But their statement “make a safe plane safer” was pretty ludicrous. Someone should take that marketing guy behind a hanger and whip him. What an idiot.

That is typical PR marketing speech. Did you really expect a statement like "to make our unsafe plane safe"?

The legal department won't allow such a statement, even if it is true.


When you are wrong, you don’t say you are right. People know you are lying. You just say something like we have improved the MCAS software and an update will be issued shortly. Adding words that our update has been tested in simulators and flight testing for n months might help too.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:26 pm

WIederling wrote:

Boeing has a tendency to be publicly disinterested and absent from their products crashing.
Is that due the unholy influence of corporate lawyers? A cultural thing?


ICAO Annex 13 regulates what manufacturers, who are participants in investigations, can disclose, which may lead to the perception that you have of being publicly disinterested.

Obligations
5.26 Accredited representatives and their advisers:
a) shall provide the State conducting the investigation with all relevant information available to them; and
b) shall not divulge information on the progress and the findings of the investigation without the express consent of the State conducting the investigation.
Note.— Nothing in this Standard precludes prompt release of facts when authorized by the State conducting the investigation, nor does this Standard preclude accredited representatives from reporting to their respective States in order to facilitate appropriate safety actions.


https://www.emsa.europa.eu/retro/Docs/m ... nex_13.pdf

The same is true for all investigations regardless of who the manufacturer is. Any public discussion must be approved by the state conducting the investigation.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4119
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:59 pm

Boof - were I a betting person, I would bet a lunch at Canlis that Boeing goes well over a $billion, and likely close to my estimate.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
9Patch
Posts: 541
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:03 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
I don’t trust the Ethiopian Authorities nor the Airline CEO.

And the Article stated the French Authorities didn’t listen to the CVR and turned it over to the Ethiopian Authorities.


Who would you trust?

The French were asked to extract the data. Why would you expect them to listen to it?


Why wouldn't you expect them to listen?
Are you suggesting that no one except the Ethiopian authorities should listen?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:07 pm

You totally misunderstood my post. The French Authorities have pubically stated they DIDNT listen to the CVR and turned the data over to the Ethiopian Authorities.
 
MrBretz
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:07 pm

Has anybody heard any details on the new logic in the MCAS? I was reading the nytimes article on “lack of training”. It made a statement when the chief AA pilot was told of the new logic, he was satisfied. All I have heard is the MCAS only reacting once to a possible stall and some sort of indicator telling the pilot that that has happened and telling the pilot that the AoA sensors don’t agree. A pointer would be appreciated.
 
konrad
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:54 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:14 pm

kmz wrote:
I wonder how this will affect MAX certification in China. MAX certification there was already initially delayed. Now there might be an additional trust problem between both authorities


I believe there should be a new certification process for the MAX after the fix is implemented, not only in China also in the US and in Europe. The fiction that it is just a derivative of the good old classic or NG should be stopped.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:26 pm

MrBretz wrote:
Has anybody heard any details on the new logic in the MCAS? I was reading the nytimes article on “lack of training”. It made a statement when the chief AA pilot was told of the new logic, he was satisfied. All I have heard is the MCAS only reacting once to a possible stall and some sort of indicator telling the pilot that that has happened and telling the pilot that the AoA sensors don’t agree. A pointer would be appreciated.


According to Leeham News, the changes in the MCAS implementation are:
  • The triggering Angle of Attack signal gets verified against other data to check the signal is valid.
  • There will only be one instance of nose down trimming, not repeated ones like today.
  • There will be a limit to how far the MCAS can trim the horizontal stabilizer nose down, so the aircraft’s elevator can compensate and control the aircraft even against a malfunctioning MCAS.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/15/bjorn ... 302-crash/
 
MrBretz
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:46 pm

Thanks, Finn350.
 
Wallsendmag
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Clear similarities between both crashes according to Ethiopian authorities


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
User avatar
sassiciai
Posts: 1109
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Finn350 wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
Has anybody heard any details on the new logic in the MCAS? I was reading the nytimes article on “lack of training”. It made a statement when the chief AA pilot was told of the new logic, he was satisfied. All I have heard is the MCAS only reacting once to a possible stall and some sort of indicator telling the pilot that that has happened and telling the pilot that the AoA sensors don’t agree. A pointer would be appreciated.


According to Leeham News, the changes in the MCAS implementation are:
  • The triggering Angle of Attack signal gets verified against other data to check the signal is valid.
  • There will only be one instance of nose down trimming, not repeated ones like today.
  • There will be a limit to how far the MCAS can trim the horizontal stabilizer nose down, so the aircraft’s elevator can compensate and control the aircraft even against a malfunctioning MCAS.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/15/bjorn ... 302-crash/

What are the indications of how these improvements will be verified and certified?
 
User avatar
ExperimentalFTE
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:55 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.


And this is exactly what was buzzing in the industry for a while now...

MAX as designed with new engines cannot pass basic 25.203 certification and stalling characteristics...meaning aircraft is uncertifiable in its natural state...

- Fix needed, something needs to arrest pitching moment and prevent airplane from being driven into stall!

- MCAS invented but level of "smartness" "MCAS-type of device" requires cannot be easily found in configuration of 737 (drive to keep as little cert areas as possible, maximize grandfathering, minimize mods from previous configuration, retain common type rating and do everything "yesterday")

-Completely flawed and nothing short of criminal analysis of system safety was put in place (intentionally....no other way) to somehow "invent" ability for MCAS as implemented to pass system certification and 25.1309 (needed reduced severity and probability of hazard analysis in attempt to justify single source failure), aspects of 25.671 etc. and this was accepted by FAA delegates within Boeing (level of awareness of actual FAA personnel is questionable).

- Airplane put into service with flawed and and lacking AFM
- Post Lion Air crash CUTOUT procedure implemented, which again is completely objectionable...

- Cutting out MCAS during airdata issues will now put airplane in "uncertifiable and unfliable" category with respect to stall characteristics...
- Any kind of software fix will not address issues with hardware and system architecture...anyone who continues using initial system safety analysis will most likely clash with authorities big time...

It does appear that without substantial air data system and flight control system architectural redesign and re-certification MAX is in very very bad position...almost checkmate..

Such a shame.....Boeing certainly has top notch technical talent.....we might be suffering from modern school of management here...
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4119
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:12 pm

I think the problem is fixable, and Boeing may have the proper changes well into the pipeline and implementation stage. The serious faults seems to be that some important information was not cleared with the FAA, the claim that pilots did not need special training, and that a single fault could not be catastrophic. Those three have substantial legal implications, or so it seems to most of us.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13041
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:14 pm

planecane wrote:
I don't think the grounding was irrational. I think the jumping to the conclusion that the MAX was to blame for the ET crash is non-scientific. The grounding should have been portrayed as "out of an abundance of caution we are grounding until the preliminary results of the ET investigation are available."


Well then Boeing should have been the one grounding the aircraft. Instead they said the plane was perfectly safe, no worries.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
oschkosch
Posts: 586
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:37 pm

In case the FAA (or ummm Boeing...) clears the software fix to be fine and the Max is then "good to go", do all other agencies such as EASA and others automatically have to accept that? Or might they request an own certification process?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
vfw614
Posts: 3840
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:39 pm

Will get interesting if the FAA rubberstamps the fix and other safety authorities in Europe, China etc. refuse to follow suit....
 
wingman
Posts: 3926
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:41 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I think the problem is fixable, and Boeing may have the proper changes well into the pipeline and implementation stage. The serious faults seems to be that some important information was not cleared with the FAA, the claim that pilots did not need special training, and that a single fault could not be catastrophic. Those three have substantial legal implications, or so it seems to most of us.


I think there will be potential legal implications if there are written and scientific warnings that were intentionally ignored or suppressed with MCAS. By that I mean Boeing employees doing prison time, which would be exceedingly unusual. As for jobs lost and financial penalties, I don't see how anyone leading the 737 program lasts much longer and very possibly we'll see the CEO and President of Commercial walked out the door. And for the financial penalties, at the end of all of days in this saga that will probably amount to some $5-$10B in direct payouts by Boeing (anywhere from $10-$30M per family). None of this is good and I am certainly very disappointed in the company and the regulators. I'm also disappointed by the airlines too though and their incessant demands that planes get better and better with zero hardship imposed on training. I'm not sure how much this has been discussed but that's the other side of this terrible sequence of events. If you don't want to spend any time training your pilots on a new plane and your mantra to the manufacturer is "a key purchase criteria is zero training"..maybe you shouldn't be in the business. Still, I put this squarely on Boeing's shoulders, this will turn out to be the most shameful event in their history.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:45 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The serious faults seems to be that some important information was not cleared with the FAA, ....


Withholding information from the FAA does not crash airplanes.
The bad design details that were carefully withheld from FAA crashed 2 737 MAX.
Murphy is an optimist
 
dashdrvr
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:47 pm

Still have to question the competency of an entire flight crew(two instances) flying their aircraft into the ground. There is plenty of instrumentation in the aircraft to show which way is up and which way is down. We learned in basic IFR training, partial panel, how to differentiate from erroneous data and keep the aircraft on approach or at the very least straight and level. Not to mention that VFR conditional may have prevailed at the time. Turn AP off, manually fly the airplane to keep it right side up. Stuff happens sometimes don't let the car drive itself off the cliff.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9291
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
planecane wrote:
I don't think the grounding was irrational. I think the jumping to the conclusion that the MAX was to blame for the ET crash is non-scientific. The grounding should have been portrayed as "out of an abundance of caution we are grounding until the preliminary results of the ET investigation are available."


Well then Boeing should have been the one grounding the aircraft. Instead they said the plane was perfectly safe, no worries.

... while having been busy with a fix for errors they did not know about. :-)
intentionally causing death is murder, isn't it?

IMU the grounding was prudent the moment a second MAX crashed for unobvious reasons
without the first crash having been resolved for a cause.

FAA and Boeing argued the court case way that without both crashes proven to have been caused by the same mechanism
and a fault assigned to Boeing no liability existed obviating any grounding demand for the 737 MAX.

Aviation safety is not a court case!
Murphy is an optimist
 
f4f3a
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:07 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:52 pm

It seems interesting that history seems to be repeating itself here.
When British midland had a crash at kegworth one of the causes was the lack of training for the crews who were used to flying the 200 to the EG SERIES . When the ng came out a differences training in the simulator was required to get it on the licence . Now due to cost cutting they have reverted back to their old mistakes and done poor effort on Boeing’s part here I think .
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:55 pm

Regarding punitive damages, the standard is whether they acted with a ‘conscious indifference’ to the safety of others. I suspect the bar is relatively high.

Source: https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/n ... 520773.htm
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:11 pm

dashdrvr wrote:
Still have to question the competency of an entire flight crew(two instances) flying their aircraft into the ground. There is plenty of instrumentation in the aircraft to show which way is up and which way is down. We learned in basic IFR training, partial panel, how to differentiate from erroneous data and keep the aircraft on approach or at the very least straight and level. Not to mention that VFR conditional may have prevailed at the time. Turn AP off, manually fly the airplane to keep it right side up. Stuff happens sometimes don't let the car drive itself off the cliff.


The autopilot was off....and they were hand flying. I don't think you understand how MCAS works.
 
smartplane
Posts: 1474
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:12 pm

Software and hardware changes notwithstanding, Boeing's issue will be to convince authorities 2.5 versus 0.6 elevator intervention is safe, whatever the data source quality, and if whatever value prevails, the MAX retains it's grandfathering in respect to handling certification characteristics rules.

If the NG has been faithfully used as the grandfathering baseline, MAX investigations could have a ripple effect on the NG.

Bet FAA and Boeing are looking hard at 787 and 777X model certification. Product liability insurers will be seeking some serious affirmations from Boeing Board, and the Board in turn from senior management.
Last edited by smartplane on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
uta999
Posts: 904
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:14 pm

Quote: * Economic problem. Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.

So will Boeing also be required to retro-fit a second AoA vane? How will the software patch help on its own?
Your computer just got better
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13843
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.



A few days ago I expressed my surprize that MCAS nose down was so forcefull (and got dismissed) now this:

The safety analysis:

Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
vfw614
Posts: 3840
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:31 pm

uta999 wrote:
Quote: * Economic problem. Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.


Hmmm, I am feeling that this could get them into even deeper trouble as apparently a safeguard was available, but not incorporated for free, but sold as an extra.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:36 pm

uta999 wrote:
Quote: * Economic problem. Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.

So will Boeing also be required to retro-fit a second AoA vane? How will the software patch help on its own?


The quoted text is total BS. Every 737 MAX has two AoA vanes and there is no option available to buy a 3rd one.
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2060
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:37 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
That was Parker-Hanaford issue the manufacturer of the PCU, not Boeing.


Thats hilarious... Its a Boeing plane the issue is Boeings. Boeing issued statement after statement blaming wake turbulence and fought against a justified grounding of the 737 which frankly would have saved lives.
BV
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1998
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:56 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
That was Parker-Hanaford issue the manufacturer of the PCU, not Boeing.


Thats hilarious... Its a Boeing plane the issue is Boeings. Boeing issued statement after statement blaming wake turbulence and fought against a justified grounding of the 737 which frankly would have saved lives.

What hilarious is you can’t comprehend PH was found to be 75% liable, don’t let the facts get in your way.
 
Blotto
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:00 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.


Speechless.... Never thought something like this would be possible in the industry.

If the information is correct the 737MAX certification might be in serious trouble
 
IWMBH
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:06 pm

I don't think the MAX certification is in trouble, the economic stakes are just too high. Boeing will fix the problem and all will be forgotten within weeks.
 
User avatar
SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:15 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I don't think the MAX certification is in trouble, the economic stakes are just too high. Boeing will fix the problem and all will be forgotten within weeks.

What is the weather like on your planet?
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2060
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:25 pm

Blotto wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

This probably should be posted in most of the MAX crash threads here. Gates specifically points to three major problems with the MAX, and his sources are reliable. What struck me most important, the failure of the MCAS system was only one step short of catastrophic. Yet relied on a single AoA. And a quote:

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.
FAA and Boeing essentially declined to comment - certain weasel words offered. Astounding.


Speechless.... Never thought something like this would be possible in the industry.

If the information is correct the 737MAX certification might be in serious trouble


I'd ask you to re-read the article and pay attention to these 2 precisely worded statements from Boeing.

Boeing responded Saturday with a statement that “the FAA considered the final configuration and operating parameters of MCAS during MAX certification, and concluded that it met all certification and regulatory requirements.”

The document, “developed to ensure the safe operation of the 737 MAX,” concluded that the system complied with all applicable FAA regulations.


The word applicable is the important word here, if grandfathered aircraft only have to conform to regulations in force when they were first certified there were NO specific applicable FAA regulations that Boeing needed to follow regarding MCAS as the sections regarding stability augmentation systems didn't exist at the time. Somebody please ask Boeing if MCAS was certified to conform with current FAA regulations.
BV
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:28 pm

uta999 wrote:
Quote: * Economic problem. Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.

So will Boeing also be required to retro-fit a second AoA vane? How will the software patch help on its own?


I have been told that it was an optional extra as to included it as necessary equipment would put grandfathering at risk.

Whether that is true or not I dunno. If true, its another skeleton for the closet.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:30 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
I'd ask you to re-read the article and pay attention to these 2 precisely worded statements from Boeing.

Boeing responded Saturday with a statement that “the FAA considered the final configuration and operating parameters of MCAS during MAX certification, and concluded that it met all certification and regulatory requirements.”

The document, “developed to ensure the safe operation of the 737 MAX,” concluded that the system complied with all applicable FAA regulations.


The word applicable is the important word here, if grandfathered aircraft only have to conform to regulations in force when they were first certified there were NO specific applicable FAA regulations that Boeing needed to follow regarding MCAS as the sections regarding stability augmentation systems didn't exist at the time. Somebody please ask Boeing if MCAS was certified to conform with current FAA regulations.



Even better, the doc that Boeing supplied to the FAA had an MCAS limit of 0.6deg. The actual on aircraft limit was 2.5deg.

So, was the "final configuration and operating parameters of MCAS" actually certified by the FAA?
 
dashdrvr
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 pm

impilot wrote:
dashdrvr wrote:
Still have to question the competency of an entire flight crew(two instances) flying their aircraft into the ground. There is plenty of instrumentation in the aircraft to show which way is up and which way is down. We learned in basic IFR training, partial panel, how to differentiate from erroneous data and keep the aircraft on approach or at the very least straight and level. Not to mention that VFR conditional may have prevailed at the time. Turn AP off, manually fly the airplane to keep it right side up. Stuff happens sometimes don't let the car drive itself off the cliff.


The autopilot was off....and they were hand flying. I don't think you understand how MCAS works.

Just so I am clear. Boeing designed, FAA certified a transport category aircraft with a flight augmentation system with no means or procedure to cancel or override such a system. Additionally the FAA required no training for such a system or event. Thank you for the clarification.
 
Adipocere
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:39 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I don't think the MAX certification is in trouble, the economic stakes are just too high. Boeing will fix the problem and all will be forgotten within weeks.


I agree. Boeing is the closest to a flag ship state champion enterprise for the United States. Boeings’ 5000 orders are the kind of sales needed to fulfill federal trade tendencies these days. There will be immense pressure on anyone asking questions on safety to stand down and let this blow over and go through. Boeing will be given the token opportunity to issue a software fix in due course of time. Just like General Motors, It’s just too big to fail.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos