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scbriml
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:35 am

IADFCO wrote:
It appears that the MLG of the -10 is indeed 9 inches higher: https://www.boeing.com/features/2018/08 ... 08-18.page, and, not surprisingly, that there is a design team that has spent time thinking about how to increase MLG height.


My understanding is that this extra "height" only comes into play at the point of rotation. I don't believe the 737-10 sits any higher off the ground than any other MAX.
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maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:13 am

JetBuddy wrote:
BaconButty wrote:
Since @32andBelow is back and doing Muilenburg's work, I just spotted this post on PPrune, which is an excellent account of why it isn't a case of "flicking some switches":

As a long-time 737 driver I'll just chime-in a few points.
<snip some interesting stuff about how long it takes to manually re-trim the aircraft>

Second: For all the arm-chair Monday morning QB's who are saying: "Oh, they should have recognized it immediately and disconnected the trim:"

(1) Just after takeoff there is a lot going on with trim, power, configuration changes, and as noted above, the darn speed trim is always moving that trim wheel in seemingly random directions to the point that experienced NG pilots would treat its movement as background noise and normal ops. Movement of the trim wheel in awkward amounts and directions would not immediately trigger a memory item response of disconnecting the servos. No way.

(2) The pilots could very reasonably not have noticed the stab trim movement. Movement of the stab trim on the 737 is indicated by very loud clacking as the wheel rotates. On the -200 it was almost shockingly loud. On the NG, much less so. HOWEVER, the 737 cockpit is NOISY. It's one reason I am happy to not be flying it any more. The ergonomics are ridiculous. Especially at high speeds at low altitudes. With the wind noise, they may not have heard the trim wheel moving. The only other way to know it was moving would be yoke feel and to actually look at the trim setting on the center pedestal, which requires looking down and away from the windows and the instruments in a 'leans'-inducing head move. On the 717, for example, Ms. Douglas chimes in with an audible "Stablizer Motion" warning. There is no such indication on the 737.

(3) The fact that they were at high power and high speed tells me the stick shaker was activated. With that massive vibrator between your legs, alternating blue sky and brown out the window, your eye balls bouncing up and down in their sockets as the plane lurches up and down in positive and negative G's, it would have been a miracle if one of the pilots calmly reached down, flicked off the stab servo cutout switches, folded out the trim handle, and started grinding the wheel in the direction of normalcy. These pilots said over the radio that they had "unreliable airspeed". So they did not even know which instruments to rest their eyes on for reliable info. Their eyes were all over the cockpit looking for reliable info, the plane is all over the place like a wild boar in a blanket not behaving in any rational way. And the flying pilot may have been using the tiny standby IFDS for airspeed and attitude. Ouch.

Finally, runaway stab trim is a very, very rare occurence up until now. We trained it about once every other year in the sim because it is so rare. And when we did it was obvious. The nose was getting steadily heavier or steadily lighter with continuous movement of the trim wheel. That is a VERY different scenario than what these pilots faced.

We also trained for jammed stabilizer, the remedy for which is overcoming it with force. The information they were faced with could very reasonably have been interpreted that way, too.

An URGENT AD from the FAA/ Boeing after Lion Air would have helped get it back to the front of the pilot's minds for sure. Extra training by the airline or an urgent pilot memo would have helped. Maybe one was issued, we don't know yet.

A better question might be: given this nose down attitude, high speed, and fully nose down or almost fully nose down stab, how much altitude would they have had to have to be able to recover. I'm thinking at least 10000 feet to recognize the problem, disconnect the switches, fold out the handle and start frantically winding the stab back to normalcy while the flying pilot tries to gain control via the elevator. It's entirely possible that this scenario, if not recognized early on, is unrecoverable at any altitude.


Very interesting information.

I believe part of the solution for this problem should be both visible and audible warnings about MCAS activating. In the Mad Dog, "Bitchin' Betty" will tell you whenever the stabilizer moves with a very clear audible "STABILIZER MOTION".

In the 737 the trim wheel keeps spinning back and forth a lot, so a voice warning might be too much. But if MCAS activates, it should be stated loud and clear to the pilots, both in text on the displays and audible.

How much will a MCAS ON signal help as I understand its always on as soon as the pilot disengages auto pilot. MCAS is supposed to help the pilot in manual mode in keeping a unbalanced plane level and preventing stall. The issue is how the pilot will know that the MCAS is working fine. Like in case of lion air, if it gets a wrong sensor feedback, it will steer the plane wrong. The only solid solution is to totally remove the MCAS system and see whether the plane is still controllable in manual mode, 1st with electric trim switches and then with the manual wheel. What that would do to the certification of max as essentially a NG is something to be seen.
 
9Patch
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:28 am

PacificWest wrote:
Just saw this:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethi ... SKCN1R0183

It sounds like both the EU and Canada will independently certify the 737 Max themselves before letting them fly again in their airspace.

Am I understanding this article correctly...?


Canada said it would independently certify the 737 MAX in the future, rather than accepting FAA validation.


Can't get any more clear than that.
This is a good thing.
I won't get on a MAX until the EU and Canada will independently certify it.
 
AvFanNJ
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:46 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:


A whole lot of nothing really.

Necessary P.R. for the company's workers, as much as for the public. Though little will be said about it, I also feel for the Renton workers surely devastated by the reality their product has caused deaths and emotional pain. I feel for them though not for the corporate bigshots who dropped the ball and apparently foisted a flawed flight control enhancement into production and certification.
 
maint123
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:51 am

Jouhou wrote:
I'm gonna have to say, the underlying narrative of bad decisions and poor communication between Boeing and the FAA gives me chills. I have some low level certification authority in what I do, sometimes Management or Engineering try forcing my hand on things, bully me to sign off on things, or have someone with less integrity sign for me. It really bothers me when they do that, and some times I kick up a fuss and call in some oversight, piss people off. But when I see things like this, I know I'm doing it for the right reasons, as painful as it might be.
I'd hate to see something I let slide result in this. Actually I'd probably be too depressed to function.

You won't go very high in corporate hierarchy. But that shouldnt matter to you. The corporate and industrial world is all about making mistakes by consensus and hiding the blunders as much as possible.People will detest you for being right.
Remember the silence around the O ring crash of the space shuttle and how much digging was required to uncover the truth, even though a large engineering community knew about the risks being taken.
Look at all the spin in this and the lion air thread. Instead of focusing on the simple question like why are brand new max planes flown by pilots with 1000s of hours of experience crashing, the conversation is successfully steered to the competence of pilots and their maintenance teams. No one is asking how the same "incompetent" pilots have had no issues with the other 737s for so many years.
 
S0Y
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:53 am

Canada said it would independently certify the 737 MAX in the future, rather than accepting FAA validation.


FAA credibility has taken a serious hit over this. I doubt if they can ever regain their former status. Granted there are also political factors at play, but they really screwed up on the 737Max
 
Tenjet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:29 am

Based on various news articles, the Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor(s) on the Boeing Max seems to be a very complex system, and there are several reports of indicating that the sensors have provided bad data in the year and a half that the Max has been flying. This system seems to be relatively unreliable and prone to providing bad data. I do not know what the AOA is that would cause a stall on the Max, but I am sure Boeing engineers know that.
It seems that there are other potential systems that would more reliably provide AOA data. One possible system would be a pendulum that would register the AOA as the plane climbed or descended. Such a device would be inside the plane and not subject to high wind and weather and probably more reliable. This information combined with the aircraft speed would provide suitable stall information. There is probably some technical reason why this is not used, so perhaps the aerospace engineers can comment on this, but it seems that there must be something better than the current system.
One other thought – it seems to me this is a good reason against going to fully automated aircraft without pilots. I would prefer passenger aircraft with properly trained and informed pilots over some automated system.
Thanks.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:18 am

maint123 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I'm gonna have to say, the underlying narrative of bad decisions and poor communication between Boeing and the FAA gives me chills. I have some low level certification authority in what I do, sometimes Management or Engineering try forcing my hand on things, bully me to sign off on things, or have someone with less integrity sign for me. It really bothers me when they do that, and some times I kick up a fuss and call in some oversight, piss people off. But when I see things like this, I know I'm doing it for the right reasons, as painful as it might be.
I'd hate to see something I let slide result in this. Actually I'd probably be too depressed to function.

You won't go very high in corporate hierarchy. But that shouldnt matter to you. The corporate and industrial world is all about making mistakes by consensus and hiding the blunders as much as possible.People will detest you for being right.
Remember the silence around the O ring crash of the space shuttle and how much digging was required to uncover the truth, even though a large engineering community knew about the risks being taken.
Look at all the spin in this and the lion air thread. Instead of focusing on the simple question like why are brand new max planes flown by pilots with 1000s of hours of experience crashing, the conversation is successfully steered to the competence of pilots and their maintenance teams. No one is asking how the same "incompetent" pilots have had no issues with the other 737s for so many years.


Most important thing to me is being able to live with myself and the day to day decisions I make that could impact lives. I try to keep that in perspective when I'm given a hard time. I can imagine some of the people involved with this feel terrible now.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:44 am

Tenjet wrote:
Based on various news articles, the Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor(s) on the Boeing Max seems to be a very complex system, and there are several reports of indicating that the sensors have provided bad data in the year and a half that the Max has been flying. This system seems to be relatively unreliable and prone to providing bad data. I do not know what the AOA is that would cause a stall on the Max, but I am sure Boeing engineers know that.
It seems that there are other potential systems that would more reliably provide AOA data. One possible system would be a pendulum that would register the AOA as the plane climbed or descended. Such a device would be inside the plane and not subject to high wind and weather and probably more reliable. This information combined with the aircraft speed would provide suitable stall information. There is probably some technical reason why this is not used, so perhaps the aerospace engineers can comment on this, but it seems that there must be something better than the current system.
One other thought – it seems to me this is a good reason against going to fully automated aircraft without pilots. I would prefer passenger aircraft with properly trained and informed pilots over some automated system.
Thanks.

AOA is the angle between the aircraft and the oncoming air, not the aircraft relative to the ground. Also, as aircraft parts go, it's a fairly simple mechanical device.
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:08 am

aerolimani wrote:
Tenjet wrote:
Based on various news articles, the Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor(s) on the Boeing Max seems to be a very complex system, and there are several reports of indicating that the sensors have provided bad data in the year and a half that the Max has been flying. This system seems to be relatively unreliable and prone to providing bad data. I do not know what the AOA is that would cause a stall on the Max, but I am sure Boeing engineers know that.
It seems that there are other potential systems that would more reliably provide AOA data. One possible system would be a pendulum that would register the AOA as the plane climbed or descended. Such a device would be inside the plane and not subject to high wind and weather and probably more reliable. This information combined with the aircraft speed would provide suitable stall information. There is probably some technical reason why this is not used, so perhaps the aerospace engineers can comment on this, but it seems that there must be something better than the current system.
One other thought – it seems to me this is a good reason against going to fully automated aircraft without pilots. I would prefer passenger aircraft with properly trained and informed pilots over some automated system.
Thanks.

AOA is the angle between the aircraft and the oncoming air, not the aircraft relative to the ground. Also, as aircraft parts go, it's a fairly simple mechanical device.


Is the MAX AoA sensor a different part vs the NG? If so, I wonder what could have changed between the versions?
 
HaulSudson
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:37 am

marcelh wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Look at all the spin in this and the lion air thread. Instead of focusing on the simple question like why are brand new max planes flown by pilots with 1000s of hours of experience crashing, the conversation is successfully steered to the competence of pilots and their maintenance teams. No one is asking how the same "incompetent" pilots have had no issues with the other 737s for so many years.

This.


Boeing has the money and a huge incentive to engage teams to achieve that.

The dead pilots haven't.
 
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mfranjic
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:04 am

scbriml wrote:

IADFCO wrote:

It appears that the MLG of the -10 is indeed 9 inches higher: https://www.boeing.com/features/2018/08 ... 08-18.page, and, not surprisingly, that there is a design team that has spent time thinking about how to increase MLG height.


My understanding is that this extra "height" only comes into play at the point of rotation. I don't believe the 737-10 sits any higher off the ground than any other MAX.


……
You're right, scbriml …
……
...When it comes to Boeing 737 MAX 10’s landing gear; although the engines are unchanged, the fuselage was lengthened so the main landing gear had to be modified to enable adequate clearance of the longer body for the rotation on takeoff and landing, and to ensure the aircraft remains stall rather than pitch-limited. The original plan was to lengthen the MLG, however since the fan diameter is unchanged, an easier solution, which requires no changes to the wheel well, has been adopted, namely a ‘semi-levered’ design which is more commonly known as a trailing-link, similar to that used on the Boeing’s aircraft 777-300ER and 787-10, that shifts the rotation point slightly aft. The gear is also telescopic and contracts during retraction to fit into the existing wheel well.
……
...Details of the Boeing 737 MAX 10’s landing gear were released in a video in late Aug 2018, in which was explained that The Boeing Company has ‘settled on a levered design that enables the gear to extend 9,5 in / 241,3 mm upon rotation during takeoff ’. In addition to the lever, the 737 MAX 10’s main gear has a steel ‘innovating shrinking mechanism’ that pulls the inner cylinder as the gear retracts, enabling it to fit in the same wheel well. From a pilot’s perspective, there is absolutely nothing different from the 737 MAX 10’s landing gear and the existing 737 MAX family.
……
The idea of using the LEAP-1A or LEAP-1C engines has been abandoned. The advantages of continuing with the LEAP-1B, twin-shaft, high-bypass turbofans (fan diameter: 69,4 in / 1.762,8 mm; BPR: 9,0:1; eng. architecture: 1F+3LPC–10HPC2HPT–5LPT), OPR: 43,68:1, are that the fan diameter remains the same and this greatly reduces development and certification time. The quick option is using the ‘thrust bump’ capability of the Image.LEAP-1B engine. Already rated at 130,41 kN / 13.298 kgf / 29.317 lbf ( LEAP-1B28 ) for takeoff, it is expected to be capable of a ‘throttle push’ to over 31.000 lbf.
……
...Unlike the example where two aircraft of the same family, like Image.Boeing 787-9 and Boeing 787-10, share the same MTOW (560.000 lb / 254.011 kg), this is not the case with Boeing 737 MAX 9 (MTOW: 194.700 lb / 88.314 kg) and Boeing 737 MAX 10 (MTOW: 197.900 lb / 89.765 kg) aircraft …
……
Mario
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile" - Albert Einstein
 
Bradin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:06 am

This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed
Last edited by Bradin on Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SimpleFlying
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:29 am

Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


I guess with only two pilots both of them could be overwhelmed with all the alarms, warnings, stickshakers, etc. Both JT610 & ET302 only had two pilots in the cockpit - both crashed. The third pilot may be able to just focus on solving the issues / faults without being distracted of keeping all alarms and warnings in-check.

As in AF447, if I am not mistaken, the captain is the one who finally realized what was happening, but he went back to the cockpit too late.

May be two persons in the cockpit is not enough?
 
Bradin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:40 am

SimpleFlying wrote:
Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


I guess with only two pilots both of them could be overwhelmed with all the alarms, warnings, stickshakers, etc. Both JT610 & ET302 only had two pilots in the cockpit - both crashed. The third pilot may be able to just focus on solving the issues / faults without being distracted of keeping all alarms and warnings in-check.

As in AF447, if I am not mistaken, the captain is the one who finally realized what was happening, but he went back to the cockpit too late.

May be two persons in the cockpit is not enough?


There may be a case for having three in the cockpit again. One reason why I believe Qantas 32 landed safely was because the Check Captain and Supervising Check Captains were there to lend a hand.
 
ELBOB
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:00 am

Bradin wrote:
There may be a case for having three in the cockpit again.


Indeed, but it'll never happen. Even when the original 737 entered service there was a lot of resistance from the aircrew unions ( ALPA and SNPL for example ) on the elimination of the FE position. And then the same again in the early 1980s with the 767 and two-crew A300.

But now that it is the norm, no airline is going to expand back to three flightdeck crew. Profit is more important.
 
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scbriml
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:14 am

maint123 wrote:
How much will a MCAS ON signal help as I understand its always on as soon as the pilot disengages auto pilot. MCAS is supposed to help the pilot in manual mode in keeping a unbalanced plane level and preventing stall.


My understanding is the indicator will show when MCAS is actually active and doing something, rather than just being on and waiting for the right conditions to activate.

MCAS effectively has three 'states':
OFF - autopilot is on and/or flaps extended
ON - autopilot is off (for whatever reason) and flaps retracted
ACTIVE - plane is in flight envelope region where MCAS is required

ACTIVE would be the state that the pilots would most need to be aware of.

Thinking further, a single traffic-light kind of indicator could simply provide knowledge of all three states - GREEN = OFF; AMBER = ON; RED = ACTIVE.
Last edited by scbriml on Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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seahawk
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:15 am

The FE should have never been eliminated. A person with deeper technical knowledge of the systems and not concerned with flying the plane in an emergency would be very beneficial in emergency situations. (If he would have known about MCAS that is)
 
uta999
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:22 am

Would adding a small rear fuselage plug solve the stability problem? Or perhaps, adding a rear stabiliser ‘duvet’ that covers the existing surface and increases the wing area and leading edge / span by 10%+

I get the impression the CoG is too far forward, and the tail too small. In which case how could it have ever been certified as an NG equivalent model.
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Aesma
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:27 am

Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


The problem is not how to deal with the issue, it's recognizing the issue. The Lion Air pilots didn't know MCAS even existed, it's possible the third pilot, simply by sitting behind the others, saw the trim wheel going more crazy than usual and from there thought about the runaway trim memory items.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Jouhou
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:44 am

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indo ... SKCN1R10FB

(X-posting from jt610 thread) report seems to indicate the pilots of jt610 didn't notice the trim movements?

Aesma wrote:
Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


The problem is not how to deal with the issue, it's recognizing the issue. The Lion Air pilots didn't know MCAS even existed, it's possible the third pilot, simply by sitting behind the others, saw the trim wheel going more crazy than usual and from there thought about the runaway trim memory items.


I think you just figured it out. It took the third pilot to see what was happening to the trim wheel.
 
SimpleFlying
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:51 am

Jouhou wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-crash-exclusive/exclusive-cockpit-voice-recorder-of-doomed-lion-air-jet-depicts-pilots-frantic-search-for-fix-sources-idUSKCN1R10FB

(X-posting from jt610 thread) report seems to indicate the pilots of jt610 didn't notice the trim movements?

Aesma wrote:
Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


The problem is not how to deal with the issue, it's recognizing the issue. The Lion Air pilots didn't know MCAS even existed, it's possible the third pilot, simply by sitting behind the others, saw the trim wheel going more crazy than usual and from there thought about the runaway trim memory items.


I think you just figured it out. It took the third pilot to see what was happening to the trim wheel.



Agree. The two pilots sitting on the left and right seats most probably were overwhelmed with warnings, alarms, stickshakers, flight attitude, etc. The third pilots was probably the one that was free to see from birdeye view and able to figure out what was happening.
 
9Patch
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:17 pm

Scott Hamilton at Leeham News and Analysis is now revising his earlier opinion that the grounding would be lifted by the end of April and the impact to Boeing would be limited. All bets are off.

Now, with confidence in the FAA shattered by its slow response to grounding—it was the last agency to do so—Transport Canada said, in essence, it won’t take the FAA’s word the problem is solved.

On Tuesday, Europe’s EASA followed suit; it, too, will conduct its own review of the MCAS software upgrade before lifting the grounding order on the MAX.

There are indications the two agencies may even go one step further and review the very certification of the MAX.

This completely blows up any hope of a global lifting of the grounding by May.



https://leehamnews.com/2019/03/20/ponti ... max-story/
Last edited by 9Patch on Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
art
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:01 pm

It is starting to look likely that MAX will not be allowed to fly in Canadian airspace for several months, Ditto in European airspace,

How will airlines adapt to loss of use of their MAX aircraft (and non-delivery of extra lplanned lift)?

What will Boeing do with scheduled production that will not be able to be delivered? There could be 100+ undeliverable MAX's coming off the line before permission to fly is given back by US authorities.
 
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keesje
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:15 pm

art wrote:
It is starting to look likely that MAX will not be allowed to fly in Canadian airspace for several months, Ditto in European airspace,

How will airlines adapt to loss of use of their MAX aircraft (and non-delivery of extra lplanned lift)?

What will Boeing do with scheduled production that will not be able to be delivered? There could be 100+ undeliverable MAX's coming off the line before permission to fly is given back by US authorities.


The number of MAX aircraft was limited so far, 350 globally. Airlines will probably keep flying older aircraft longer and might charge Boeing for the additional costs of that.

Boeing can transfer completed MAX aircraft to other place I saw, no problem there.

The interesting part seems that US authorities might give permission to fly in the US, but what if the Canadian, EASA and Australians say they need more time. Will US passengers board the aircraft? Things changed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-20/boeing-criminal-probe-rare-in-u-s-for-a-planemaker-after-crash
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:27 pm

keesje wrote:
art wrote:
It is starting to look likely that MAX will not be allowed to fly in Canadian airspace for several months, Ditto in European airspace,

How will airlines adapt to loss of use of their MAX aircraft (and non-delivery of extra lplanned lift)?

What will Boeing do with scheduled production that will not be able to be delivered? There could be 100+ undeliverable MAX's coming off the line before permission to fly is given back by US authorities.


The number of MAX aircraft was limited so far, 350 globally. Airlines will probably keep flying older aircraft longer and might charge Boeing for the additional costs of that.

Boeing can transfer completed MAX aircraft to other place I saw, no problem there.

The interesting part seems that US authorities might give permission to fly in the US, but what if the Canadian, EASA and Australians say they need more time. Will US passengers board the aircraft? Things changed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-20/boeing-criminal-probe-rare-in-u-s-for-a-planemaker-after-crash


Another good question is what happens, if software fix is deemed insufficient, and hardware will need to be modified.
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art
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:31 pm

keesje wrote:
art wrote:
It is starting to look likely that MAX will not be allowed to fly in Canadian airspace for several months, Ditto in European airspace,

How will airlines adapt to loss of use of their MAX aircraft (and non-delivery of extra lplanned lift)?

What will Boeing do with scheduled production that will not be able to be delivered? There could be 100+ undeliverable MAX's coming off the line before permission to fly is given back by US authorities.


The number of MAX aircraft was limited so far, 350 globally. Airlines will probably keep flying older aircraft longer and might charge Boeing for the additional costs of that.

Boeing can transfer completed MAX aircraft to other place I saw, no problem there.

The interesting part seems that US authorities might give permission to fly in the US, but what if the Canadian, EASA and Australians say they need more time. Will US passengers board the aircraft? Things changed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-20/boeing-criminal-probe-rare-in-u-s-for-a-planemaker-after-crash


If the 300+ NB aircraft that were replaced by the MAX are still flyable, I can see a quick workaround (get them back into service ASAP) but how many were scrapped / bought by lease companies and leased out? How many are still available?
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
I don't believe the 737-10 sits any higher off the ground than any other MAX.

Fuselage sitting higher on the ground would trash the evacuation scheme. ( no slides for overwing exits required. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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hilram
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:58 pm

Wow. Just wow. :wideeyed: A criminal investigation into FAA / Boeing Collusion by the US Department of Transportation. And now EASA will not take FAA's word for it that 737 Max is safe, but will conduct their own certification process. Boeing stock is currently trading way too high! :down: Sell sell sell! :dollarsign:
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:18 pm

Some thoughts from Captain Sullenberger on Marketwatch:

"Estimates are that Boeing likely will face additional costs of several billion dollars because of these recent crashes and the decisions made several years ago that led up to them. This case is a validation of something that I have long understood, that there is a strong business case for quality and safety, that it is always better and cheaper to do it right instead of doing it wrong and trying to repair the damage after the fact, and when lives are lost, there is no way to repair the damage.

And in this ultra-cost-competitive global aviation industry, when it comes to costs, nothing is more costly than an accident. Nothing."


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/capt- ... 2019-03-19

Seems like he's thinking along the same lines as most of us.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:26 pm

It was Boeing's attempt to avoid any serious retraining of pilots, AND a poorly thought out stall prevention software and AoA system. It appears that the later can be fixed for less than a million per plane. And the former means special certification for pilots. Neither is a difficult or impossible task. But a MAX is not the same plane as an NG. That will mean some difficulties in assigning crews. Expensive.
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phugoid1982
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:02 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:29 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
keesje wrote:
art wrote:
It is starting to look likely that MAX will not be allowed to fly in Canadian airspace for several months, Ditto in European airspace,

How will airlines adapt to loss of use of their MAX aircraft (and non-delivery of extra lplanned lift)?

What will Boeing do with scheduled production that will not be able to be delivered? There could be 100+ undeliverable MAX's coming off the line before permission to fly is given back by US authorities.


The number of MAX aircraft was limited so far, 350 globally. Airlines will probably keep flying older aircraft longer and might charge Boeing for the additional costs of that.

Boeing can transfer completed MAX aircraft to other place I saw, no problem there.

The interesting part seems that US authorities might give permission to fly in the US, but what if the Canadian, EASA and Australians say they need more time. Will US passengers board the aircraft? Things changed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-20/boeing-criminal-probe-rare-in-u-s-for-a-planemaker-after-crash


Another good question is what happens, if software fix is deemed insufficient, and hardware will need to be modified.


This is what I'm concerned about especially now that the DOJ is investigating the incestuous relationship between the FAA and Boeing that allowed grandfathering of FAR requirements and rubber stamping of certification that was basically done by Boeing with no little/no oversight. I think the airplane should be re-certified with more independent oversight even if the SW fix is deemed adequate and Boeing should use this time to add more AOA sensors and adequately ensure that MCAS cannot kick in because of a single point of failure through. There is a loss of confidence in the FAA and Boeing that needs to surmounted and the impropriety of this relationship adequately addressed.
 
Elshad
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm

If U.S. authorities are unwilling to take legal (criminal) actions against Boeing executives e.g. Muilenburg maybe other countries can act? Maybe put out a European Arrest Warrant or something. It would prevent him visiting Paris / Farnborough etc.
 
SDLSimme
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:29 pm

A question for those of you more knowledgeable about the certification process. Is there a risk/possibility (depending on how you define it) that a recertification of the MAX series disqualifies it because of the potential aerodynamic instability that requirered MCAS to be installed in the first place? Or is that type of software solution to the core problem normally seen as acceptable?
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monomojo
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:30 pm

LDRA wrote:
monomojo wrote:
Virtual737 wrote:

Oh come on. How does your last sentence help your overall comment?

The stab trim moves "uncommanded" rather frequently. At what point is it uncommanded and "runaway" and not just uncommanded and "normal"? It has also been mentioned by at least 2 737 drivers (1 in this thread and 1 in another that I could find if pressed) that the trim, in operation, can be almost unnoticeable.


The two pertinent characteristics of a potential stab runaway as described by the checklist are "continuous", and "in a manner not appropriate for flight conditions". Why people continue to get hung up on the relatively insignificant "continuous" while ignoring the massively significant "not appropriate for flight conditions" I have no idea. The trim is running in a manner that is compromising the pilot's ability to maintain stable flight. Does it matter if it's continuous or not? Does it matter if you can't determine if it's speed trim, MCAS, or an intermittent defect? Hell no, the damn thing is trying to fly you into terrain, turn it off! We put pilots in the cockpit because we expect them to utilize both their training and their synthesis of received instruction and experience to keep the aircraft flying safely. If they're rules lawyering a checklist over a single adjective instead of taking required sensible action to keep the airplane safely in the air, then they're not doing what they're put into the seat to do.

You are going to cut off electric trim first time STS kicks on


Speed trim doesn't try to fly the plane into the ground. If you're already nose down and the trim keeps pushing the nose further down, that's definitely not indicative of a normal STS at work. Again, we go back to "in a manner not appropriate for flight conditions". Repeated nose down trim even after the nose is already down is not appropriate.

I'm not certain why the pilots were unable to diagnose the MCAS/trim fault condition, and we may never know, but if people want to argue that the crash was a because the pilots didn't have the understanding necessary to process the appropriate checklist, I think the inevitable conclusion is that they did not understand how to fly their airplane. This isn't a direct knock on the pilots, this is a training issue. Safe flying is more than pushing the appropriate buttons at the scheduled time and following checklists by the letter, it's understanding intimately the forces that keep the aircraft in the air, how all of the systems respond to and interact with pilot inputs to keep the aircraft flying safely, and what each and every switch and control in the cockpit does. Managing trim is an integral part of flying a 737, if a pilot doesn't have a complete understanding of what those two switches on the pedestal do and how they affect his ability to control the aircraft such that he can recognize that they will disable all automatic trim input (and why that is the desired end result of that part of the runaway stab checklist), then I would argue that the pilot was not appropriately trained to fly the aircraft.

Fixing MCAS such that it won't put pilots in that position again is absolutely necessary, but if pilots are not being trained to be knowledgeable and competent of their equipment, then that just leaves additional opportunities for disaster.
 
LDRA
Posts: 271
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:40 pm

monomojo wrote:
LDRA wrote:
monomojo wrote:

The two pertinent characteristics of a potential stab runaway as described by the checklist are "continuous", and "in a manner not appropriate for flight conditions". Why people continue to get hung up on the relatively insignificant "continuous" while ignoring the massively significant "not appropriate for flight conditions" I have no idea. The trim is running in a manner that is compromising the pilot's ability to maintain stable flight. Does it matter if it's continuous or not? Does it matter if you can't determine if it's speed trim, MCAS, or an intermittent defect? Hell no, the damn thing is trying to fly you into terrain, turn it off! We put pilots in the cockpit because we expect them to utilize both their training and their synthesis of received instruction and experience to keep the aircraft flying safely. If they're rules lawyering a checklist over a single adjective instead of taking required sensible action to keep the airplane safely in the air, then they're not doing what they're put into the seat to do.

You are going to cut off electric trim first time STS kicks on


Speed trim doesn't try to fly the plane into the ground. If you're already nose down and the trim keeps pushing the nose further down, that's definitely not indicative of a normal STS at work. Again, we go back to "in a manner not appropriate for flight conditions". Repeated nose down trim even after the nose is already down is not appropriate.

I'm not certain why the pilots were unable to diagnose the MCAS/trim fault condition, and we may never know, but if people want to argue that the crash was a because the pilots didn't have the understanding necessary to process the appropriate checklist, I think the inevitable conclusion is that they did not understand how to fly their airplane. This isn't a direct knock on the pilots, this is a training issue. Safe flying is more than pushing the appropriate buttons at the scheduled time and following checklists by the letter, it's understanding intimately the forces that keep the aircraft in the air, how all of the systems respond to and interact with pilot inputs to keep the aircraft flying safely, and what each and every switch and control in the cockpit does. Managing trim is an integral part of flying a 737, if a pilot doesn't have a complete understanding of what those two switches on the pedestal do and how they affect his ability to control the aircraft such that he can recognize that they will disable all automatic trim input (and why that is the desired end result of that part of the runaway stab checklist), then I would argue that the pilot was not appropriately trained to fly the aircraft.

Fixing MCAS such that it won't put pilots in that position again is absolutely necessary, but if pilots are not being trained to be knowledgeable and competent of their equipment, then that just leaves additional opportunities for disaster.


Anytime you are out of trimmed state, normal response is use electric manual trim to trim out column force. I am not sure how does that provide any detectable symptom to differentiate MCAS from STS
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 252
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:43 pm

Elshad wrote:
If U.S. authorities are unwilling to take legal (criminal) actions against Boeing executives e.g. Muilenburg maybe other countries can act? Maybe put out a European Arrest Warrant or something. It would prevent him visiting Paris / Farnborough etc.


Appropriate parties are investigating this whole thing.
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.
 
marcelh
Posts: 640
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:09 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Elshad wrote:
If U.S. authorities are unwilling to take legal (criminal) actions against Boeing executives e.g. Muilenburg maybe other countries can act? Maybe put out a European Arrest Warrant or something. It would prevent him visiting Paris / Farnborough etc.


Appropriate parties are investigating this whole thing.
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


You missed the message. Although the evidence is there, the authorities can decide not to take actions.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8461
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:13 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


Leave out communist and you are all set.

It seems to work the other way round rather well. US courts taking up and deciding on things
that are not really in their judicial domain on often contrived linkage.
And they are not shy to judge ( and with a political slant too )
But god forbid someone tries that in the reverse.
Murphy is an optimist
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:17 pm

marcelh wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
Elshad wrote:
If U.S. authorities are unwilling to take legal (criminal) actions against Boeing executives e.g. Muilenburg maybe other countries can act? Maybe put out a European Arrest Warrant or something. It would prevent him visiting Paris / Farnborough etc.


Appropriate parties are investigating this whole thing.
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


You missed the message. Although the evidence is there, the authorities can decide not to take actions.


So far we need to know the FACTS.
A lot of investigations with "clear" evidence end up tossed by court due to lack or imaginary stuff.
Lets hope for the best and honest outcome.

WIederling wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


Leave out communist and you are all set.

It seems to work the other way round rather well. US courts taking up and deciding on things
that are not really in their judicial domain on often contrived linkage.
And they are not shy to judge ( and with a political slant too )
But god forbid someone tries that in the reverse.


Two wrongs don't make it right.
 
Bradin
Posts: 274
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


The problem is not how to deal with the issue, it's recognizing the issue. The Lion Air pilots didn't know MCAS even existed, it's possible the third pilot, simply by sitting behind the others, saw the trim wheel going more crazy than usual and from there thought about the runaway trim memory items.


So I have a question and an observation

Question:

Is there a similar motor or function on the 737-NGs that will drive the nose down?


Observation:

It doesn't change the following observations (won't treat them entirely as factual as it's just a single source at this time):

1) There is a checklist somewhere that instructs pilots to cut power to the motor pushing the nose down
2) A Lion Air pilot executed said checklist on the very same plane one flight before, and it corrected the issue
 
planecane
Posts: 985
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:32 pm

Bradin wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Bradin wrote:
This popped onto my news feed just now. Interesting enough, it focuses specifically on the day before a Lion Air pilot deadheading who correctly diagnosed the problem the day before the very same plane crashed.

Of particular interest is this quote (emphasis added by me): "The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... er-crashed


The problem is not how to deal with the issue, it's recognizing the issue. The Lion Air pilots didn't know MCAS even existed, it's possible the third pilot, simply by sitting behind the others, saw the trim wheel going more crazy than usual and from there thought about the runaway trim memory items.


So I have a question and an observation

Question:

Is there a similar motor or function on the 737-NGs that will drive the nose down?


Observation:

It doesn't change the following observations (won't treat them entirely as factual as it's just a single source at this time):

1) There is a checklist somewhere that instructs pilots to cut power to the motor pushing the nose down
2) A Lion Air pilot executed said checklist on the very same plane one flight before, and it corrected the issue


The speed trim system that is on the NGs is very similar to MCAS except it is for low speed and is disabled above .68 Mach.
 
StarAC17
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:51 pm

maint123 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I'm gonna have to say, the underlying narrative of bad decisions and poor communication between Boeing and the FAA gives me chills. I have some low level certification authority in what I do, sometimes Management or Engineering try forcing my hand on things, bully me to sign off on things, or have someone with less integrity sign for me. It really bothers me when they do that, and some times I kick up a fuss and call in some oversight, piss people off. But when I see things like this, I know I'm doing it for the right reasons, as painful as it might be.
I'd hate to see something I let slide result in this. Actually I'd probably be too depressed to function.

You won't go very high in corporate hierarchy. But that shouldnt matter to you. The corporate and industrial world is all about making mistakes by consensus and hiding the blunders as much as possible.People will detest you for being right.
Remember the silence around the O ring crash of the space shuttle and how much digging was required to uncover the truth, even though a large engineering community knew about the risks being taken.
Look at all the spin in this and the lion air thread. Instead of focusing on the simple question like why are brand new max planes flown by pilots with 1000s of hours of experience crashing, the conversation is successfully steered to the competence of pilots and their maintenance teams. No one is asking how the same "incompetent" pilots have had no issues with the other 737s for so many years.


The corporate world should be about selling things of value and if mistakes are made which will happen they should be improved upon. Preventing mistakes from happening again is what regulations are and the mistake of regulators are making rules ambiguous and hard to understand, they should be clear and transparent.

This actually maximizes shareholder value in the long term.

Regarding Challenger, they NASA engineers knew about the risks of launching in those condition but as Jouhou says they were stiff-armed probably directly from Reagan.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/challenge ... e-age/8658

Boeing should be held responsible for this not because the Max is necessarily a bad design but because they didn't provide the training available to the pilots for them to do their jobs safely. A one hour Ipad lesson on something as complex as a jet is completely insufficient and hopefully simulators are made available for the max in short order.

I work at a bank which is not life and death and will might spend a full day training on a new tool or procedure that is a gazillion times less complicated than flying a 737.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
ual763
Posts: 909
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:59 pm

Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim and how to shut it off in the event the system commands it to do something you don’t want it to do (aka this example). The cure is just a simple cutoff switch.

This is also why flight instructors need to continuously drill into students’ minds the importance of trimming the aircraft when learning. I can’t tell you how many student pilots go most of the flight without ever touching the trim in the air. It’s almost as if they’re afraid of it. Then they wonder why they can never stay within limits on their maneuvers... If they never use it, it’s no wonder why when the system fails they fail to recognize it and then try correcting it with back pressure on the yoke instead of hitting the disconnect switches. It’s because they’ve used the control column to counteract trim their entire life instead of just adjusting the trim.

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
dakota123
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:18 pm

ual763 wrote:
Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim and how to shut it off in the event the system commands it to do something you don’t want it to do (aka this example). The cure is just a simple cutoff switch.

This is also why flight instructors need to continuously drill into students’ minds the importance of trimming the aircraft when learning. I can’t tell you how many student pilots go most of the flight without ever touching the trim in the air. It’s almost as if they’re afraid of it. Then they wonder why they can never stay within limits on their maneuvers... If they never use it, it’s no wonder why when the system fails they fail to recognize it and then try correcting it with back pressure on the yoke instead of hitting the disconnect switches. It’s because they’ve used the control column to counteract trim their entire life instead of just adjusting the trim.

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.
.

Interesting point, and something I’ve wondered about in these cases — if column forces are increasing, whatever the reason, why wouldn’t one instinctively just hit the switch, pretty much without even thinking about it. My primary was almost fanatical about making sure we were in trim, I guess I assumed that was generally how training was done for everyone. (But then I also got spin training as well, so count myself fortunate to have had an old-school instructor.)
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
Bradin
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:29 pm

StarAC17 wrote:

Boeing should be held responsible for this not because the Max is necessarily a bad design but because they didn't provide the training available to the pilots for them to do their jobs safely. A one hour Ipad lesson on something as complex as a jet is completely insufficient and hopefully simulators are made available for the max in short order.

I work at a bank which is not life and death and will might spend a full day training on a new tool or procedure that is a gazillion times less complicated than flying a 737.


How about the airline?
 
ual763
Posts: 909
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 11:46 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:42 pm

dakota123 wrote:
Interesting point, and something I’ve wondered about in these cases — if column forces are increasing, whatever the reason, why wouldn’t one instinctively just hit the switch, pretty much without even thinking about it. My primary was almost fanatical about making sure we were in trim, I guess I assumed that was generally how training was done for everyone. (But then I also got spin training as well, so count myself fortunate to have had an old-school instructor.)


In an ideal World, trim would be used as much as it should be. However, the deviation allowances in some of these 3rd World country’s Practical Test Standards are practically non-existent. Unfortunately, as a result, trim isn’t necessary to complete the maneuver within standards and they then never use it. There’s no need to (other than their sore arms). I cannot speak specifically for Ethiopia & Indonesia, however I know of the PTS standards for some other nearby countries that are shocking. Can’t imagine these two have that much difference. But even then, there are a myriad of students right here in the USA who don’t use trim as much as they should. I’ve always been told a change in trim is probably necessary whenever there is a change in attitude, power, and/or speed.

Same can be said about rudder coordination in turns. How many pilots forget about this? These simple little mundane things that are often swept under the rug oftentimes end up being some of the most important, especially in critical phases of flight. They should both be second nature before the first solo.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
User avatar
hilram
Posts: 732
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:13 pm

ual763 wrote:
Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim (.....)

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.

Hos van you say Boeing is not at fault when Boeing
a) Did not include MCAS in the manual to begin with
b) Insisted on common type rating with NG with nothing but
c) 90 minutes of iPad training that should be “sufficient” for a NG pilot to start flying MAX with passengers

???
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
dakota123
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:18 pm

hilram wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim (.....)

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.

Hos van you say Boeing is not at fault when Boeing
a) Did not include MCAS in the manual to begin with
b) Insisted on common type rating with NG with nothing but
c) 90 minutes of iPad training that should be “sufficient” for a NG pilot to start flying MAX with passengers

???


Where did he say that? (I didn’t say that, either.). We’re discussing one potential hole in the Swiss cheese.
Last edited by dakota123 on Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 1932
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:20 pm

Here's 777 pilot Juan Browne's March 15th evaluation of the stabilizer jack screw's position on the Ethiopian 737-8 Max

https://youtu.be/AgkmJ1U2M_Q
Last edited by DIRECTFLT on Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos