ual763
Posts: 910
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:21 pm

hilram wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim (.....)

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.

Hos van you say Boeing is not at fault when Boeing
a) Did not include MCAS in the manual to begin with
b) Insisted on common type rating with NG with nothing but
c) 90 minutes of iPad training that should be “sufficient” for a NG pilot to start flying MAX with passengers

???


I didn’t say Boeing is not completely at fault. However, the problem, I believe, stems from a time much earlier in the pilots’ career. It starts with the fundamentals of flying. Sure, there may be a problem with some Boeing sensors, and they obviously face liability. However, with that being said, as with anything in a modern jet, it can be overridden by the crew. But if the crew isn’t used to using it, they won’t know to override it when shit hits the fan.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8363
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:03 pm

People can talk about Lion air has a bad reputation regarding safety and it may be that there pilot training is insufficient. But there is Ethiopian airlines with a pretty good safety record. We do not have 737NG dropping out of the sky.
So now there is a new frame the 737MAX and two accidents with loss of all lives. A frame that Boeing insisted would be that similar to the NG that no real difference training would be needed. And there are 2 frames lost with all lives of 350 delivered. An unprecedented bad safety record in regards to a new frame in the last 30 years, both frames just a few month old.
In case of Ethopian the airline flies 737NG, 767, 777, 787, A350, ATR and DHC-8. All this frames are not dropping out of the skies.

So people here can keep talking about non USA pilots being the cause, but sorry I do not buy that.
 
KBUF
Posts: 450
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:21 pm

The FBI has joined the investigation:

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-737-max/
"Starting today, the Buffalo Sabres' reason for existence will be to win a Stanley Cup."-Terry Pegula, February 22, 2011
 
planecane
Posts: 1035
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:46 pm

dakota123 wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Just my opinion and takeaway from this whole situation, but...

This is why pilots are *supposed* to be intimately familiar with trim and how to shut it off in the event the system commands it to do something you don’t want it to do (aka this example). The cure is just a simple cutoff switch.

This is also why flight instructors need to continuously drill into students’ minds the importance of trimming the aircraft when learning. I can’t tell you how many student pilots go most of the flight without ever touching the trim in the air. It’s almost as if they’re afraid of it. Then they wonder why they can never stay within limits on their maneuvers... If they never use it, it’s no wonder why when the system fails they fail to recognize it and then try correcting it with back pressure on the yoke instead of hitting the disconnect switches. It’s because they’ve used the control column to counteract trim their entire life instead of just adjusting the trim.

Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!

It all stems from lack of proper training, and not from Boeing, but from the very beginning of their flight training in small single engine piston aircraft.
.

Interesting point, and something I’ve wondered about in these cases — if column forces are increasing, whatever the reason, why wouldn’t one instinctively just hit the switch, pretty much without even thinking about it. My primary was almost fanatical about making sure we were in trim, I guess I assumed that was generally how training was done for everyone. (But then I also got spin training as well, so count myself fortunate to have had an old-school instructor.)


^This. I'm not a pilot and I've never taken a flying lesson but my wife got me a session in a 737-800 simulator for my birthday a few years ago. The first thing the instructor taught me was to trim away the force I needed to hold on the column. It was easy and felt natural and intuitive.
 
ual763
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:58 pm

KBUF wrote:
The FBI has joined the investigation:

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-737-max/


Since when did it become a "criminal" investigatio n? Or is this just sensationalized reporting? I guess time will tell.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 9551
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:00 pm

KBUF wrote:
The FBI has joined the investigation:

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-737-max/


Could have great repercussions. We'll see what comes from this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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hilram
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:03 pm

:!: Since when did the FBI start with non-criminal investigations? I guess I must have missed the Memo...
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
dakota123
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:03 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:10 pm

ual763 wrote:
KBUF wrote:
The FBI has joined the investigation:

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.


https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... g-737-max/


Since when did it become a "criminal" investigatio n? Or is this just sensationalized reporting? I guess time will tell.


The GM ignition key issue ended up being a criminal investigation, IIRC, so seems plausible.
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
YoungDon
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:16 pm

hilram wrote:
:!: Since when did the FBI start with non-criminal investigations? I guess I must have missed the Memo...


The FBI would only get involved if there was evidence of potential criminal activity from the facts so far. They know more than we do, so it's certainly a reason, and it will come out eventually (as it should).
 
IADFCO
Posts: 118
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:18 pm

trex8 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
trex8 wrote:
AFAIK the max10 MLG change was to allow the plane to rotate and avoid a tailscrape without needing another extra mile of runway and another 100knots speed etc etc as the Max10 is "too long". it wont affect the actual height above ground of the bottom of the engine nacelle


It appears that the MLG of the -10 is indeed 9 inches higher: https://www.boeing.com/features/2018/08 ... 08-18.page, and, not surprisingly, that there is a design team that has spent time thinking about how to increase MLG height. Bringing back the engines to a better position is not trivial nor cheap, but it would seem to be the definitive cure for the problem. I guess it will depend on what happens to the remaining 4000+ aircraft orders, and what the causes of the two accidents turn out to be.



Its 9in or whatever higher on takeoff when it does that lever thing, like going on tip toes, not when all nose and main gear tires are resting on the ground. On the ground when parked, taxiing, the Max10 has no more ground clearance than the 8 or 9 .

Very interesting, thanks.
 
speedking
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:52 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
Elshad wrote:
If U.S. authorities are unwilling to take legal (criminal) actions against Boeing executives e.g. Muilenburg maybe other countries can act? Maybe put out a European Arrest Warrant or something. It would prevent him visiting Paris / Farnborough etc.


Appropriate parties are investigating this whole thing.
You can't just charge somebody without all the facts/evidence to back what you are doing.
Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


Communists, Nazis. Governments, Corporations. FAA, EASA. FBI, CIA. Training, Design. Grounding, Flying.

Who cares? If the planes don't stay in the air:

If it's Boeing and it's MAX,
I ain't going, I ain't pax!

I'm the one, the passenger, that holds the dough. I decide.
 
kuhne
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:05 pm

One thing is training, the other thing is the temperament to act on life or death decisions two minutes after take off due to the sorry excuse of an aircraft you are flying decides to kill everyone due to a software glitch. If this thing happens in 30000 feet things would probably be different.

Sure, better trained pilots would maybe have saved all these people in both crashes but you know what would have been even better? Not flying in a temperamental death machine.
 
ual763
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:10 pm

So from the article, if it is true, even though I'm guessing the majority isn't included, it sounds like the pilot's tried to counteract the MCAS (runaway nose down trim) by just holding the nose up trim and hoping for the best. Makes me wonder if they tried hitting the cutout switches?
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
c933103
Posts: 3790
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:24 pm

Chinese report claim it was China Eastern president Liu Shaoyong's proposal that make CAAC stopped all Max 8 flying on the 10th of March before other countries https://jqknews.com/news/156242-Members ... 737_8.html
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
dakota123
Posts: 233
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:49 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
marcelh wrote:
maint123 wrote:
Look at all the spin in this and the lion air thread. Instead of focusing on the simple question like why are brand new max planes flown by pilots with 1000s of hours of experience crashing, the conversation is successfully steered to the competence of pilots and their maintenance teams. No one is asking how the same "incompetent" pilots have had no issues with the other 737s for so many years.

This.


:checkmark: :checkmark:


All well and good and no argument from me in advance of an investigation as to how certification ended up as it did, but how is it that a plane is released for service after experiencing “days” of unreliable airspeed indications? Should never, ever happen, full stop. Plenty of FUBAR all around, it would seem.
“And If I claim to be a wise man, well surely it means that I don’t know”
 
Thorkel
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:06 am

ual763 wrote:
Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!


Yep - and if the electronic trim controls on the column is working correctly - as they were - it at first glance does not appear unreasonable to use them to keep the aircraft trimmed if you don't know the failure modes associated with MCAS.

This, I think, is part of the problem. The Lion Air aircraft was responding to electronic trim controls on the column, and the captain in particular was using them to keep the aircraft trimmed and flying. Flipping the cut-out switches deactivates those column trim controls. If the aircraft is responding to those controls, you may well not immediately suspect a problem with electronic trim.

And if you're using the electronic trim column controls to keep the aircraft in the air, it's a gutsy decision to flip the cut off switches and turn off the controls you're using to keep the aircraft trimmed and level unless you're *very* sure that will resolve the problem.
 
expert7700
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:36 am

I keep thinking the flaw in the MAX has some similarities to the GM airbag scandal a few years back.

GM saved a few cents on a cheaper clip on an ignition system that was known to fail. IIRC, an engineer had even predicted this. Weight on keyring could cause new cars to get the ignition bumped out of the 'run' position.

No recall initally. Then people kept dying in crashes. Strangely the airbags failed to deploy. Month later, government investigators and dealerships figured out that turning the ignition to the on/acc position (instead of the run position) DISABLED the airbag system. So these were not one-off problems it was a critical design shortcut costing lives. Also didn't help that the GM silently redesigned the part to make it stronger without telling the NTSB etc.

In this Boeing MAX issue, the pilots (and the public and FAA) are the ones learning about the shortcuts and design problems far too late.
Last edited by expert7700 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boston757
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:39 pm

737-800 Max

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:40 am

With the news reporting today that Boeing will have the software fix by the end of March, will it just be tested and back in service? Or will the FAA wait until the 2 investigations are complete and or make Boeing re certify the aircraft. We have heard a minimum of 90 days until its back in the air. What are your thoughts or knowledge.

Thanks,Fly Safe
 
morrisond
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:40 am

Thorkel wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Guys, trim is your friend. USE IT!!


Yep - and if the electronic trim controls on the column is working correctly - as they were - it at first glance does not appear unreasonable to use them to keep the aircraft trimmed if you don't know the failure modes associated with MCAS.

This, I think, is part of the problem. The Lion Air aircraft was responding to electronic trim controls on the column, and the captain in particular was using them to keep the aircraft trimmed and flying. Flipping the cut-out switches deactivates those column trim controls. If the aircraft is responding to those controls, you may well not immediately suspect a problem with electronic trim.

And if you're using the electronic trim column controls to keep the aircraft in the air, it's a gutsy decision to flip the cut off switches and turn off the controls you're using to keep the aircraft trimmed and level unless you're *very* sure that will resolve the problem.


Any pilot should assume that any system on an airplane can fail. Full stop. They are there to take over when the computers screw up (or electric trim is doing unusual things). The computers have screwed up this time and they will again and hence why we will probably not go to pilotless airliners for some time.

Boeing was wrong to not alert Airlines prior to Lionair about the existence of MCAS and provide sufficient training on it - but still any competent pilot would have seen an issue with the Electric Trim and disconnected it as did the pilot on the previous Lionair flight.

However as they did alert the worldwide fleet after Lionair and prior to this new crash - any pilot who is flying the Max should have had this issue top of mind and know how to correct for it. It's basic airmanship.

This reminds me of the Asiana crash in SFO where the pilots let a perfectly good airplane fly itself into the ground when all they had to do was disconnect the Autopilot - advance the throttles a touch and hand fly the landing.

Any pilot training should emphasize hand flying the aircraft when things are not normal. Any commercial pilot should be able to fly an airliner by hand with very basic instruments (standby Attitude indicator and Airspeed).

A lot of the crashes in the past number of years boil down to lack of airmanship.

If you are not going to hold Pilots responsible for making mistakes and blame it all on the machine (which can and will fail sometimes) then why have pilots at all? Just replace them with computers now and every time they crash just bankrupt the manufacturer.

Systems will fail - Pilots have to be able to deal with it.

How many here think the Lionair or Egyptair pilots could have done what Sully did on the Hudson?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:57 am

morrisond wrote:
How many here think the Lionair or Egyptair pilots could have done what Sully did on the Hudson?

Not me !
Then again, they tested a whole bunch of American pilots in a simulator under the same conditions, and IIRC they all failed miserably too.

What was your point exactly....? :rotfl:

So yes, LionAir and Egyptair, and possibly even Ethiopian (???) pilots are not as good as Sully. :banghead:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
PixelPilot
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:18 am

Kilopond wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:
[...]Holy batman communistic / totalitarian mindset. Some of you just lost it lol.


Vengefully locking up people for minor offences is rather a US attitude. Here is an aviation-related example. Note that in this case even the real guilt remained questionable.

Ex-head of Qantas freight operations in US jailed for price fixing


https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Ex-head_of ... ice_fixing


So price fixing is "minor" offence... and acting against it is vengeful... ROFL!
Did you even read the link you posted?? Do you understand what kind of economic ripple such behavior can have / most likely had? Potential tens of thousands of livelihoods affected and it's.. well minor...
Again. HOLY BATMAN!! rofl
Last edited by PixelPilot on Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:26 am, edited 5 times in total.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:20 am

This whole thing is boiling down to the airlines wishing to control costs of introducing the MAX by skimping out on training and Boeing not fully informing the airlines of the MCAS system and how it worls and how it can fail etc. Boeing also did not properly explain the MCAS system in the flight manuals.

Both crashes however will ultimately be blamed on pilot error with lack of MCAS training and the Lion Air one also having poor maintenance as a contributing factor.

The LIon Air aircraft also should have been taken out of service immediately after the AOA sensors started messing up and not returned to service until the problem was completely fixed and tested.

The revelation that a jumpseat rider pilot automaticly recognized the problem on the previous Lion Air flight in the accident aircraft and solved it quickly for the crew shows that some crews and the crew of the accident aircraft lacked the training on the system but failed to follow the basic runaway trim procedures that they were taught for other B737 aircraft which was to shut off the trim system which solves the problem of runaway MCAS.

This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft and will be even safer with the software update and proper training and that even now with proper crew training the grounding of the aircraft whi;le a prudent thing to do is probably uneccessary.
 
speedking
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:00 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:43 am

freakyrat wrote:
This whole thing is boiling down to the airlines wishing to control costs of introducing the MAX by skimping out on training and Boeing not fully informing the airlines of the MCAS system and how it worls and how it can fail etc. Boeing also did not properly explain the MCAS system in the flight manuals.

Both crashes however will ultimately be blamed on pilot error with lack of MCAS training and the Lion Air one also having poor maintenance as a contributing factor.

The LIon Air aircraft also should have been taken out of service immediately after the AOA sensors started messing up and not returned to service until the problem was completely fixed and tested.

The revelation that a jumpseat rider pilot automaticly recognized the problem on the previous Lion Air flight in the accident aircraft and solved it quickly for the crew shows that some crews and the crew of the accident aircraft lacked the training on the system but failed to follow the basic runaway trim procedures that they were taught for other B737 aircraft which was to shut off the trim system which solves the problem of runaway MCAS.

This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft and will be even safer with the software update and proper training and that even now with proper crew training the grounding of the aircraft whi;le a prudent thing to do is probably uneccessary.


Doesn't convince me, sorry. If I have to choose between an old tuned up Ford Pinto or a new modern Mercedes Benz, I know where to put my money into.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1698
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:57 am

This FOX news report on the Lion Air CVR explains this in simpler terms. I might add in my years of working as an FSS specialist with the FAA prior to 9/11 when I was able to jumpseat on various aircraft including the B737 and B727 I observed how the electric trim system worked. A lot different than the small aircraft I myself flew. The 737 and 727 pilots on this forum can attest to that operation. Those two large trim wheels on each side of the pedastal are quite noisey in operation and I'm sure you guys and gals that fly these aircrafy can recognize the visual cues and the feel of the aircraft when the trim goes into a runaway. Also on my many jumpseat flights the Captain always would review the maintenance writeups that were in the manual and review and discuss them with the co pilot. It's just part of the pre duty briefing just like it is for Air Traffic Controllers. Anyway give this a listen.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/60162263200 ... show-clips
 
Thorkel
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:38 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:06 am

morrisond wrote:
If you are not going to hold Pilots responsible for making mistakes and blame it all on the machine (which can and will fail sometimes) then why have pilots at all? Just replace them with computers now and every time they crash just bankrupt the manufacturer.

Systems will fail - Pilots have to be able to deal with it.


I have been doing development of systems in relation to functional safety standards for 20 years and in that process we rarely look at things so black and white - I.e. the plane is solely at fault or the pilots are solely at fault. Many of the techniques we use are probabilistic in nature - we look at how likely events are to initiate hazardous circumstances and we look at how likely controls (pilots, systems, training) are to mitigate these potentially hazardous effects.

Automatic systems work best with people when they are clearly communicating their actions to the operators. Training works best when the trained situation accurately reflects the specific emergency scenario - where people are able to react based on their training rather than diagnose during the emergency.

In the Lion Air situation, both of these areas are problematic. MCAS is not explicitly communicating its actions - you need to notice motion of the trim wheel and infer that electronic trim is failing. This appears to be compounded by the fact that training for runaway electronic trim emergencies don’t cover circumstances where the column trim buttons still work.

I find it believable that changes to the design of the system and training would have helped the pilots situational awareness and therefore led them to the cut off switches. The likelihood of not noticing MCAS is active is increased by not having an explicit MCAS alarm. The likelihood of not identifying runaway trim is increased by not having training for the precise behaviour of MCAS in that circumstance.

I also find it problematic that the correct course of action is for the pilots having to switch off the electronic trim controls on the column that they’re using to fly level. That’s a brave decision to take if you’re not sure of the cause - if you’re wrong about the cause then the next pitch down event removes the control you’ve been using to keep the plane level. A better control from my armchair would be an MCAS On/Off button that still allows the column trim to be used. A checklist would tell you to switch that off first, before disabling all electronic trim.

In short - there appears to me to be deficiencies in both the system and training that affected the pilots ability to identify the problem. To what degree these could be anticipated will be considered as part of the various investigations.

I will always feel safer if the system is being explicit about what it’s doing, and if the crew are explicitly trained on the behavious of a specific emergency condition. Pilots will have to deal with unexpected circumstances in the future and there will be flights in the future where pilots will need to diagnose situations they were not explicitly trained for - but we want system design and training to minimise these occurrences. In this circumstance, systems design and training deficiencies appear to contribute to an increased likelihood of pilots not making the right decision from my perspective. The residual risk of this scenario does not appear to be ALARP at the moment, and that’s a fundamental principle in functional safety analysis.

Edit - spelling
Last edited by Thorkel on Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2776
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:08 am

freakyrat wrote:
This whole thing is boiling down to the airlines wishing to control costs of introducing the MAX by skimping out on training and Boeing not fully informing the airlines of the MCAS system and how it worls and how it can fail etc. Boeing also did not properly explain the MCAS system in the flight manuals.

Both crashes however will ultimately be blamed on pilot error with lack of MCAS training and the Lion Air one also having poor maintenance as a contributing factor.

The LIon Air aircraft also should have been taken out of service immediately after the AOA sensors started messing up and not returned to service until the problem was completely fixed and tested.

The revelation that a jumpseat rider pilot automaticly recognized the problem on the previous Lion Air flight in the accident aircraft and solved it quickly for the crew shows that some crews and the crew of the accident aircraft lacked the training on the system but failed to follow the basic runaway trim procedures that they were taught for other B737 aircraft which was to shut off the trim system which solves the problem of runaway MCAS.

This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft and will be even safer with the software update and proper training and that even now with proper crew training the grounding of the aircraft whi;le a prudent thing to do is probably uneccessary.


This is pretty much where I am with it.

First crash: Boeing takes some blame because they didn't properly tell everyone the updates. Lionair takes some for continuing to fly an aircraft that was having issues. The pilots weren't properly trained but they also hadn't been given all the info by Boeing, so it is hard for me to put a bunch of blame on them.

After this everyone who flew a MAX should have known this was an issue and how to turn it off. If they were properly trained on it, then the situation shouldn't have led to another crash.

So if the 2nd crash actually ends up being the same issue, I would want to know why the pilots didn't just turn off the system? And if they did, then what else happened.

I still think grounding the MAXs in the US/Canada/and some others probably wasn't needed where pilots were properly trained on it. But if any airline/country doesn't feel like their pilots are trained for it, then I get grounding them. I just wouldn't feel unsafe personally flying on one in the US because I think pilots here all got the memo from Boeing and now know how to handle it until the update is distributed.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1726
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:40 am

freakyrat wrote:
This whole thing is boiling down to the airlines wishing to control costs of introducing the MAX by skimping out on training and Boeing not fully informing the airlines of the MCAS system and how it worls and how it can fail etc. Boeing also did not properly explain the MCAS system in the flight manuals.

Both crashes however will ultimately be blamed on pilot error with lack of MCAS training and the Lion Air one also having poor maintenance as a contributing factor.

The LIon Air aircraft also should have been taken out of service immediately after the AOA sensors started messing up and not returned to service until the problem was completely fixed and tested.

The revelation that a jumpseat rider pilot automaticly recognized the problem on the previous Lion Air flight in the accident aircraft and solved it quickly for the crew shows that some crews and the crew of the accident aircraft lacked the training on the system but failed to follow the basic runaway trim procedures that they were taught for other B737 aircraft which was to shut off the trim system which solves the problem of runaway MCAS.

This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft and will be even safer with the software update and proper training and that even now with proper crew training the grounding of the aircraft whi;le a prudent thing to do is probably uneccessary.
The pilot in the jumpseat didn't come up with the answer instantly. He just had the spare time to work it out with the crew since they already had their hands full.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1698
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:47 am

Thanks RickNRoll and Jshank83 for your comments and insights. My sentiments are exactly like yours. I've ridden on the MAX on WN 3 times and once I had my sister along last September on a flight from MDW-LAS. IMHO I personally like the aircraft and I trust our pilots here who are highly trained and have many hours in the aircraft.
 
Tenjet
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:46 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:55 am

aerolimani wrote:
Tenjet wrote:
Based on various news articles, the Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor(s) on the Boeing Max seems to be a very complex system, and there are several reports of indicating that the sensors have provided bad data in the year and a half that the Max has been flying. This system seems to be relatively unreliable and prone to providing bad data. I do not know what the AOA is that would cause a stall on the Max, but I am sure Boeing engineers know that.
It seems that there are other potential systems that would more reliably provide AOA data. One possible system would be a pendulum that would register the AOA as the plane climbed or descended. Such a device would be inside the plane and not subject to high wind and weather and probably more reliable. This information combined with the aircraft speed would provide suitable stall information. There is probably some technical reason why this is not used, so perhaps the aerospace engineers can comment on this, but it seems that there must be something better than the current system.
One other thought – it seems to me this is a good reason against going to fully automated aircraft without pilots. I would prefer passenger aircraft with properly trained and informed pilots over some automated system.
Thanks.

AOA is the angle between the aircraft and the oncoming air, not the aircraft relative to the ground. Also, as aircraft parts go, it's a fairly simple mechanical device.

As I have stated earlier, I am not a pilot but this does not make a lot of sense to me. If you are flying at a couple hundred miles an hour at low altitude, the wind is coming at you. Once one gets up into the jet stream at high levels there may be a tail wind, but on they usually try to take off into the wind, although sometimes in a cross wind. Even so, I would not think that would have much effect on the stall angle. I could possibly see a slight change in stall angle due to aircraft weight changes, but I have difficulty understanding how the wind direction would make much difference. Seems to me it is based on the wing angle which affects the flow of the wind over the wing which provides lift, and this angle is the angle above level flight. Thanks.
 
Bradin
Posts: 276
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:33 am

New York Times: Ethiopian Airlines Installed Max 8 Simulator, but Pilot on Doomed Flight Didn’t Get Training

Fair Use Excerpt:

Ethiopian Airlines surpassed many carriers by becoming one of the first to install a simulator to teach pilots how to fly the new Boeing 737 Max 8, but the captain of the doomed Flight 302 never trained on the simulator, according to people close to the airline’s operations. The people, who spoke on condition of anonymity because Ethiopian Airlines had not authorized disclosure of the information, said the carrier had the Max 8 simulator up and running in January, two months before Flight 302 crashed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/worl ... oeing.html
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:18 am

Thorkel wrote:
morrisond wrote:
If you are not going to hold Pilots responsible for making mistakes and blame it all on the machine (which can and will fail sometimes) then why have pilots at all? Just replace them with computers now and every time they crash just bankrupt the manufacturer.

I will always feel safer if the system is being explicit about what it’s doing, and if the crew are explicitly trained on the behavious of a specific emergency condition. Pilots will have to deal with unexpected circumstances in the future and there will be flights in the future where pilots will need to diagnose situations they were not explicitly trained for - but we want system design and training to minimise these occurrences. In this circumstance, systems design and training deficiencies appear to contribute to an increased likelihood of pilots not making the right decision from my perspective. The residual risk of this scenario does not appear to be ALARP at the moment, and that’s a fundamental principle in functional safety analysis.

Edit - spelling


I agree

With reference to the above. When asked why no mention of MCAS was made to US pilots tasked with creating the manual for 737 Max the answer from Boeing was

"We did not want to inundate them with too much information"

Regardless of where you stand on thus accident right now and the cause

Does anybody on here find that an acceptable excuse?

Surely this is the very heart of the problem?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6941
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:21 am

seahawk wrote:
The FE should have never been eliminated. A person with deeper technical knowledge of the systems and not concerned with flying the plane in an emergency would be very beneficial in emergency situations. (If he would have known about MCAS that is)

When the FE was eliminated on new airliner designs some 40-50 years ago, then it was a conequense of a shift in design philosophy. A change from manual failure monitoring to failure tolerant systems.

The 737 was designed during that period as an "improvement" of former old philosophy designs, 707 and 727. Some systems were made failure tolerant, some not so much when they were not considered really critical or potentially catastrophic in failure mode. Also because they had proved rather reliable on 707 and 727. One such thing was AoA detection.

Then on the MAX, with the MCAS, a potentially catastrophic band aid was added, taking input from a single AoA sensor.

It is old knowledge that failure tolerance on sensing in its simplest form means three sensors and reading two which match. There are other more complicated ways to gain the same or even better failure tolerance, but the MAX hasn't taken advantage of any of that yet. That is unique among all large airliners being produced in the 21st century.

That will be corrected, either by a software update which removes the catatrophic potential, or by a more radical modification making the MAX on par with modern airliner design philosophy.

It is quite sickening to see on this forum how posters, who claim to be 737 pilots, claim that this issue is solely a training issue, and how superior pilots will always avoid CMAS related catastrophe.

Being an occational airline passenger, me (and my wallet) are alone to keep the airlines in the air. I do not want superior pilots to be the only thing which saves me from catastrophe. When I order a ticket, then the web site does not offer that I tick a small square telling "superior pilots only". I have to take what is available, superior, average, or below average pilots. And BTW, all of us, including superior pilots, got a birth certificate reading "zero hours". Superior pilots become superior by polishing their skills as non-superior pilots.

This grounding is likely unique in the world history due to the large number of "stakeholders": Boeing, FAA, EASA, Canadian CAA (plus others), DOT, DOJ, FBI, and even the US president has involved himself. Did I forget some?

I think I did. One which we haven't head about, and probably never will hear about: Insurance companies.

Insurance companies sell insurances for one single reason, to earn money. No MAX will fly again until all former mentioned stakeholders have convinced them that the red flag can be removed from the MAX. Superior pilots or not. Normally insurance companies around the world would side with the FAA, but since nobody else seems to do so today, then it is likely more complicated this time. This event could turn out to become a lot more "politically toxic" than earlier events such as Comet, DC-10, 787.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:05 am

"Systems will fail - pilots have to deal with it."

Re the above comment someone made. I totally agree but:

There has to be an acceptable level of systems failure for them to have to deal with. I don't think any of us believe we have that acceptable level of failure with 737 max in place yet? Do we? Some doubt we will ever get there due to the design.

We have to have trained the pilots first how to spot the systems failure and then how to deal with it. If we don't even refer to it in a manual how can we expect them to understand it or deal with it the exact way we want them to deal with it?

why do so many posters in here have differing suggestions of what pilots should do in the situation? Why is it even up for debate?

Isn't the whole point of training and a manual thtt you do things by the book?? When the lion pilots faced their issues were they doing the right thing trying to follow the manual or not? Did the manual not fail them? Did their total ignorance of MCAS not fail them?

It's not in the book! The book was criminally insufficient to deal with the situation. This is basic stuff really.

Boeing failed on systems and on training pilots at the same time. So much to learn from this.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:12 am

freakyrat wrote:
Thanks RickNRoll and Jshank83 for your comments and insights. My sentiments are exactly like yours. I've ridden on the MAX on WN 3 times and once I had my sister along last September on a flight from MDW-LAS. IMHO I personally like the aircraft and I trust our pilots here who are highly trained and have many hours in the aircraft.


IANAP. :blush:
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:29 am

Interested wrote:
Thorkel wrote:
morrisond wrote:
If you are not going to hold Pilots responsible for making mistakes and blame it all on the machine (which can and will fail sometimes) then why have pilots at all? Just replace them with computers now and every time they crash just bankrupt the manufacturer.

I will always feel safer if the system is being explicit about what it’s doing, and if the crew are explicitly trained on the behavious of a specific emergency condition. Pilots will have to deal with unexpected circumstances in the future and there will be flights in the future where pilots will need to diagnose situations they were not explicitly trained for - but we want system design and training to minimise these occurrences. In this circumstance, systems design and training deficiencies appear to contribute to an increased likelihood of pilots not making the right decision from my perspective. The residual risk of this scenario does not appear to be ALARP at the moment, and that’s a fundamental principle in functional safety analysis.

Edit - spelling


I agree

With reference to the above. When asked why no mention of MCAS was made to US pilots tasked with creating the manual for 737 Max the answer from Boeing was

"We did not want to inundate them with too much information"

Regardless of where you stand on thus accident right now and the cause

Does anybody on here find that an acceptable excuse?

Surely this is the very heart of the problem?

Definitely not an acceptable excuse and to be honest, a little suspicious. I think most flight crews wouldn’t feel like they’re being inundated with too much information and some would even consider the failure of Boeing to disclose critical information like this as negligent.
A313 332 343 B703 712 722 732 73G 738 739 741 742 744 752 762 76E 764 772 AT5 CR9 D10 DHH DHT F27 GRM L10 M83 TU5

AA AI CO CL DE DL EA HA KL LH N7 PA PQ SK RO TW UA YR
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:30 am

Interested wrote:
"Systems will fail - pilots have to deal with it."

Re the above comment someone made. I totally agree but:

There has to be an acceptable level of systems failure for them to have to deal with. I don't think any of us believe we have that acceptable level of failure with 737 max in place yet? Do we? Some doubt we will ever get there due to the design.

We have to have trained the pilots first how to spot the systems failure and then how to deal with it. If we don't even refer to it in a manual how can we expect them to understand it or deal with it the exact way we want them to deal with it?

why do so many posters in here have differing suggestions of what pilots should do in the situation? Why is it even up for debate?

Isn't the whole point of training and a manual thtt you do things by the book?? When the lion pilots faced their issues were they doing the right thing trying to follow the manual or not? Did the manual not fail them? Did their total ignorance of MCAS not fail them?

It's not in the book! The book was criminally insufficient to deal with the situation. This is basic stuff really.

Boeing failed on systems and on training pilots at the same time. So much to learn from this.


This extract from Daily Telegraph (UK) this morning backs up both the above failings

"The Transportation Department’s inspector general is conducting a review of how the plane was certified to fly and a grand jury under the US Justice Department is also seeking records in a possible criminal probe of the plane’s certification.

The FAA last week said it planned to mandate changes in the system to make it less likely to activate when there is no emergency. The agency and Boeing said they are also going to require additional training and references to it in flight manuals.

“We will fully cooperate in the review in the Department of Transportation’s audit,” Boeing spokesman Charles Bickers said. The company has declined to comment on the criminal probe.

After the Lion Air crash, two US pilots’ unions said the potential risks of the system, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, hadn’t been sufficiently spelled out in their manuals or training. None of the documentation for the Max aircraft included an explanation, the union leaders said.

“We don’t like that we weren’t notified,’’ Jon Weaks, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said in November. “It makes us question, ‘Is that everything, guys?’ I would hope there are no more surprises out there.’’

The Allied Pilots Association union at American Airlines Group Inc. also said details about the system weren’t included in the documentation about the plane.

Following the Lion Air crash, the FAA required Boeing to notify airlines about the system"
 
rheinwaldner
Posts: 1709
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:30 am

freakyrat wrote:
This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft.

Sounds like the MAX should only be allowed to be operated in the US. The others are not competent enough. They are only competent enough to fly A220s, A320s, 737NGs, 757s, 767s, 777s, 787s, A330s, A340s, A350s, A380s....

Do you see, what the outlier is?
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:25 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft.


I accept that I know very little compared to most on here about safety of planes. But I'm educating myself.

Something I've already learnt and do know though is that 41,000 safe flights means absolutely nothing in terms of required safety of commercial planes. It's not even worth mentioning!

If the Max orders happen there will be 25,000 Max flights per day in the future. Assuming we would "like" no more than 1 Max disaster every 5 years in the future - we would need over 45 million non disaster flights in a row to hit those safety desires if my maths is correct?

(5000 max planes x 5 flights per day x 365 days x 5 years)

41,000 safe flights tells us nothing at all

In flight terms that's a tiny number!

Plus Boeing build planes to be understood and safe worldwide. Not just in US. So you also have to judge safety worldwide and not just in US or your favourite airlines. Most of us want to fly safely all over the world don't we?

So safety of these planes all over the world is the relevant stat Boeing have to build planes for.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:29 am

Interested wrote:
rheinwaldner wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
This leads to the conclusion that with over 41,000 safe flights each on AA and WN and with proper training that the MAX is a safe aircraft.


I accept that I know very little compared to most on here about safety of planes. But I'm educating myself.

Something I've already learnt and do know though is that 41,000 safe flights means absolutely nothing in terms of required safety of commercial planes. It's not even worth mentioning!

If the Max orders happen there will be 25,000 Max flights per day in the future. Assuming we would "like" no more than 1 Max disaster every 5 years in the future - we would need over 45 million non disaster flights in a row to hit those safety desires if my maths is correct?

(5000 max planes x 5 flights per day x 365 days x 5 years)

41,000 safe flights tells us nothing at all

In flight terms that's a tiny number!

Plus Boeing build planes to be understood and safe worldwide. Not just in US. So you also have to judge safety worldwide and not just in US or your favourite airlines. Most of us want to fly safely all over the world don't we?

So safety of these planes all over the world is the relevant stat Boeing have to build planes for.


Also based on my maths

In the last 5 months - max disasters have happened every 120,000 flights approx

With that disaster rate:

We would expect one Max to be destroyed every week and 250 disasters in 5 years if 5000 are ever in operation

Clearly unacceptable failure rates
 
sgrow787
Posts: 165
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:48 am

More evidence for my theory that the original design of MCAS was two sensor... it just makes sense since (a) the connections are already there, (b) for a safety critical system such as MCAS, it is ludicrous to believe they shortcutted the software side of it, and (c) it explains why they were able to put a software fix in so quick:

https://youtu.be/9Ts_AjU89Qk?t=1125

It's more believable they intended a design but didn't put the time and money into properly testing and certifying it. A bad design can be blamed on a few engineers. A lack of certification rigorousness points to a larger systemic problem with Boeing's and the FAA's process.
Last edited by sgrow787 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17276
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:50 am

Interested wrote:
With reference to the above. When asked why no mention of MCAS was made to US pilots tasked with creating the manual for 737 Max the answer from Boeing was

"We did not want to inundate them with too much information"

Regardless of where you stand on thus accident right now and the cause

Does anybody on here find that an acceptable excuse?

Surely this is the very heart of the problem?


The lack of pilot information about MCAS prior to the Lion crash is certainly a very significant factor.

The utterly horrible implementation of MCAS is another, who in their right mind would design a safety system with that "logic"? It's completely crazy.

But I see the never-ending quest to blame the crew and absolve Boeing is still in full swing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am

scbriml wrote:
Interested wrote:
With reference to the above. When asked why no mention of MCAS was made to US pilots tasked with creating the manual for 737 Max the answer from Boeing was

"We did not want to inundate them with too much information"

Regardless of where you stand on thus accident right now and the cause

Does anybody on here find that an acceptable excuse?

Surely this is the very heart of the problem?


The lack of pilot information about MCAS prior to the Lion crash is certainly a very significant factor.

The utterly horrible implementation of MCAS is another, who in their right mind would design a safety system with that "logic"? It's completely crazy.

But I see the never-ending quest to blame the crew and absolve Boeing is still in full swing.


If a new system has created too much information to "inundate" pilots with surely it's failed before its even started?

Yes the implementation can truly be described as horrible
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13043
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:14 am

A regular engine cowling is semetric and aerodynamic forces around the inlet will compensate each other in level flight or small AOA.

The CFM-B is significant larger the the CFM56-7 cowling and seems tilted up a few degrees also, to ensure groundclearance.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/tb566a30dd.png

From the looks of it, I can understand significant underpressure building up on top of the cowling, over the larger surface at higher speeds

No doubt this showed early in the design phase. Early high speed windtunnel test and CFD would predict acurately.

So early on the MCAS trimming must have been selected as the solution for this complication. 8, 9 years ago.

The significant increased trimming power than originally foreseen, could indicate the pitch up generated by the cowlings was bigger than originally calculated.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
namezero111111
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:22 am

For all the jingoists claiming American pilots are the only true aces in the sky, a quick reminder of some of the most egregious events in North America:
Accidents
1972 - Eastern 401
1978 - United 173
1982 - Air Florida 90
1983 - Air Canada 143
2001 - American 587
2004 - Pinnacle 370
2006 - Comair 5191
2009 - Colgan 3407

Incidents
2006 - Continental 1883
2009 - Delta 60
2009 - Northwest 188
2017 - Air Canada 759

Just saying sweep in front of your own door before besmudging others.
 
cc2314
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:15 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:41 am

To the previous poster.Isnt that a commendable amount of accidents when we consider the amount of 737 flights that have taken off and landed in North America since 1970.
Deleted
 
User avatar
InsideMan
Posts: 333
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:42 am

freakyrat wrote:
This whole thing is boiling down to the airlines wishing to control costs of introducing the MAX by skimping out on training and Boeing not fully informing the airlines of the MCAS system and how it worls and how it can fail etc. Boeing also did not properly explain the MCAS system in the flight manuals.


Except, that MCAS wouldn't even be necessary if the 737MAX wasn't a flawed design to begin with. All because Boeing skimped out of a redesign or proper solution to hang the engines.
AND Boeing having the low training effort and common type rating as a USP for the airlines.
 
Natflyer
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 am

freakyrat wrote:
Thanks RickNRoll and Jshank83 for your comments and insights. My sentiments are exactly like yours. I've ridden on the MAX on WN 3 times and once I had my sister along last September on a flight from MDW-LAS. IMHO I personally like the aircraft and I trust our pilots here who are highly trained and have many hours in the aircraft.


Idiots are in abundance on this site...
 
namezero111111
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:51 am

cc2314 wrote:
To the previous poster.Isnt that a commendable amount of accidents when we consider the amount of 737 flights that have taken off and landed in North America since 1970.


Of course. Just saying the attitude that it must be the pilots suck because they're not American is sickening.
 
ELBOB
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:02 am

morrisond wrote:

How many here think the Lionair or Egyptair pilots could have done what Sully did on the Hudson?


Mr Sully only achieved his remarkable feat because he had an excellent copilot. It'd be polite to recognise that. Can you even name him without searching?
 
Interested
Posts: 647
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:08 am

cc2314 wrote:
To the previous poster.Isnt that a commendable amount of accidents when we consider the amount of 737 flights that have taken off and landed in North America since 1970.


Clearly a MUCH safer plane than 737 Max

Anyone disagree?

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