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Amiga500
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:25 pm

Probably fast action by Boeing putting pressure on the pilot's employer.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:25 pm

planecane wrote:
None of that indicates that the entire trim system needs to be redesigned. The problem is MCAS activating due to a single bad AoA sensor. The scenario that you are suggesting won't happen after the software changes (assuming the software is written properly).

I disagree. The software fix will not suppress the multiple unrelated alarms, nor the stick shaker. The actually proposed fix only add a yet another AoA disagree alarm without removing all the confusing information. This is a poor design. The information system must prioritize the information given to the pilot, directly pointing to the primary cause instead of pointing to the multiples consequences of an unknown issue that the pilot have to guess. The QF32 was a typical case that redefined how information have to be prioritized.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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OA412
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:28 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
StTim wrote:
I have just read the latest Leeham news article on this. How scary that you know the issue, you follow the instructions and yet it is still impossible to recover the plane.

Blooming scary and really unforgivable in the modern world?



Ah, but 'murican pilots with superior training to Johnny Foreigner would have dealt with it. :rolleyes:

Yeah that rhetoric really hasn't aged well. It was bad enough when it happened right after the crash, and people were going on and on about third world pilots and the fact that the US would never employee a 250 hour pilot even though the 1500 hour requirement in the US is just 5 years old. As more information pours out, those comments are increasingly embarrassing for a lot of Americans, including myself.
PW100 wrote:
Why do I have this feeling that mighty Boeing legal is hard at work here? Free speech anyone?
What free speech? Boeing is a private corporation. They don't owe anyone free speech rights under US law. Their attorneys are free to send cease and desist letters to YouTubers (although in this case it appears it was the YouTubers employer who demanded he removed the video).
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
LDRA
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:30 pm

One component of the trim cutout procedure advocated by Boeing should be adequate pilot training. Specifically, pilot should receive reoccurring gym session to build and maintain their arm strength, so that in event handwheel trim is required, pilots have the required physical strength to achieve triM rate needed to avoid mishap
 
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BoeingVista
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:38 pm

PW100 wrote:
dk1967 wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Leeham in co operation with MentourPilot paints a picture of what might have happened

http://leehamnews.com/2019/04/03/et302- ... more-29790


And that was a 737NG sim? Also, video is now unavailable.


Can't access that video either from my location (Netherlands).

Why do I have this feeling that mighty Boeing legal is hard at work here? Free speech anyone?


I've watched it but the video is now showing as unavailable, very interesting..
BV
 
ClubCX
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:42 pm

I hope the SEC is watching Boeing closely.
 
Bradin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:56 pm

mwmav8r01 wrote:
Bradin wrote:
I am not sure if everyone understands what MCAS is or if we can agree what MCAS is. Some of the more recent posts makes it sound like the MCAS is a piece of hardware. However based on everything I've read and how I've interpreted it, MCAS is a piece of software. Not a piece of hardware.

Does anyone else interpret it differently? Or do we all agree on the same definition of what MCAS is?


Its an auto trim function. There are multiple autotrim functions in the NG. More than the Classic and more than the Jurrasic. Technology changes.


That's what MCAS /does/. That is not the same as saying it's a piece of hardware that does autotrim or a piece of software that does autotrim.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:02 pm

jollo wrote:
That's why under the STAB TRIM CUTOFF label the 737 NG (and the Classic as well, AFAIK) has 2 distinct switches: AUTOPILOT and MAIN ELECT. Switching the AUTOPILOT switch to CUTOFF only deactivates autopilot stabilizer trim operation, leaving the electric trim manual switches on the yoke operative, whereas switching the MAIN ELECT switch to CUTOFF completely kills electric trim at the actuator level.

According to this schematic, the signal STAB TRIM CONTROL (From P6 CB PANEL) that power the big R64 relay pass trough both cutoff switches, so if any of them is in OFF position, the stab trim actuator is not even powered anymore.
Image
From: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407217&start=1650#p20886627
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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Polot
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:02 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Probably fast action by Boeing putting pressure on the pilot's employer.

Hard to say. If the pilot never asked permission to make the video (involving company property? Idk never saw video) most employers would shut that down quickly. They are not going to want to get involved in the investigation or speculation. Making fun videos talking about your job/basic general pilot things is one thing, having the appearance your company possibly endorses speculation about a crash is another.
 
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hilram
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:24 pm

WIederling wrote:
mwmav8r01 wrote:
Stop replying to Interested. They have an ax to grind. I cant handle a thread with more responses from 1 person.

Your analysis is spot on. Yes a tweak is needed but traing and even following CURRENT trim runaway procedure likely would have prevented this.

Its not a 1 spot blame.


What Schopenhauer couldn't know about : "argue via moderator"?

it is a two spot blame:
Boeing doing that MCAS "thingy"
Boeing handing out a remedy that killed even faster.
Good thing the software patch hasn't had contact with the unwashed public.

The ET crew seems to have followed the Boeing advisory "how to handle MCAS misbehaving" issued after the Lion Air crash.
It killed them even faster.


The taste in My mouth now from “Making a safe Aircraft even safer” ...
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:36 pm

hilram wrote:
WIederling wrote:
The ET crew seems to have followed the Boeing advisory "how to handle MCAS misbehaving" issued after the Lion Air crash.
It killed them even faster.


The taste in My mouth now from “Making a safe Aircraft even safer” ...


with all the sugary foods around "bitter" is extinct, nobody knows about it.
Murphy is an optimist
 
smartplane
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:47 pm

flybucky wrote:
Turns out that it was the cruise control that had activated after all. But it didn't occur to you because you never set the cruise (STS and MCAS operate during manual flying, not autopilot). And you had been braking, which should have disconnected the cruise (In 737 NG, if you counter Speed Trim System by pulling on the yoke, STS will stop. In 737 MAX, yoke will not stop MCAS.) Instead, you thought it was the gas pedal and fixated on that. The other alarms and shaking added to the confusion. By the way, there was no semi truck behind you, the sensor was faulty. You could have just braked and came to a stop safely.

But, using your car analogy, haven't investigators found MCAS can't be completely turned off (as is the case when you take cars racing, even pulling fuses and relays to cancel stability protection, wheel spin, ABS, etc doesn't work)? And, it can be 'provoked', even when flying in modes it shouldn't, like with flaps deployed, autopilot on, etc for example in climbing turns?
 
drew777
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:31 pm

The FAA is going to rubber stamp the software upgrade no matter what. I hope China and Europe go through proper certification process.

I also hope fellow A-neters stay off the " but the pilot wasn't white, couldn't happen here" bandwagon during the next crash. That was truly disgusting.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:37 pm

drew777 wrote:

I also hope fellow A-neters stay off the " but the pilot wasn't white, couldn't happen here" bandwagon during the next crash. That was truly disgusting.


The good news is that comments of that kind can't happen in the wider world. They don't do Boeing any favours on here to be fair.

But the posters don't know any better. It's desperate tactics
 
smartplane
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:02 pm

smartplane wrote:
flybucky wrote:
Turns out that it was the cruise control that had activated after all. But it didn't occur to you because you never set the cruise (STS and MCAS operate during manual flying, not autopilot). And you had been braking, which should have disconnected the cruise (In 737 NG, if you counter Speed Trim System by pulling on the yoke, STS will stop. In 737 MAX, yoke will not stop MCAS.) Instead, you thought it was the gas pedal and fixated on that. The other alarms and shaking added to the confusion. By the way, there was no semi truck behind you, the sensor was faulty. You could have just braked and came to a stop safely.

But, using your car analogy, haven't investigators found MCAS can't be completely turned off (as is the case when you take cars racing, even pulling fuses and relays to cancel stability protection, wheel spin, ABS, etc doesn't work)? And, it can be 'provoked', even when flying in modes it shouldn't, like with flaps deployed, autopilot on, etc for example in climbing turns?

And provoked switching between pilots?
 
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remcor
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:03 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
PW100 wrote:
dk1967 wrote:

And that was a 737NG sim? Also, video is now unavailable.


Can't access that video either from my location (Netherlands).

Why do I have this feeling that mighty Boeing legal is hard at work here? Free speech anyone?


I've watched it but the video is now showing as unavailable, very interesting..


The comments in the post say the video was made unavailable after Mentour Pilot's employer didn't like it (he flies for an airline out of Barcelona).
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:24 pm

You have heard from Ferpe:

"Today we know the crowing from Western pilots, “Typical third world crews,” was not called for. Anyone who has tried a correctly set up MCAS situation in a simulator is more muted."


I have a modest proposal. While we don't know the conclusions of the investigation yet, it seems that there is some information that points to the situation being far more complex than "why didn't the pilots shut it down".

Those of you who kept saying this is merely a pilot issue and a training problem, how about ... some humility? Maybe even an apology? You know something like "well, it seems like it wasn't so simple after all" or "I'm sorry for claiming that it was a pure pilot error"?
 
flybucky
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:44 pm

BoeingVista wrote:
WSJ has been briefed on the preliminary ET302 report, not great for Boeing as pilots did initially follow the new Boeing MCAS drill but they still couldn't get the plane to clmb so they flipped the electric trim motor back on and the rest is history

seahawk wrote:
Would proof the blowback effect.

flybucky wrote:
Not exactly. The blowback effect that Bjorn wrote about was in regards to full elevator input (yoke pulled full back) not being able to counter stabilizer full nose down at higher speeds. This WSJ article is about the pilots hitting the Stabilizer Trim Cutouts and attempting to use the manual trim wheel, which controls the stabilizers, not elevators. This may be more related to stabilizer trim load preventing manual trim wheel usage. https://www.satcom.guru/2019/04/stabili ... range.html

BoeingVista wrote:
You cant seriously be suggesting that the pilots didn't try to pull back fully on the stick to try and get the aircraft to climb knowing that a previous 737MAX flight had gone in nose down and killed everyone aboard?!?

Of course not. I never suggested that the pilots didn't pull back on the stick, nor did I suggest that Blowback was not a factor (I believe both are true).

What I said was that the WSJ article about the ET302 pilots disabling Stab Trim Cutouts is unrelated to Blowback (it doesn't prove or disprove it, or even add/subtract any credence).

Blowback effect is when the elevator actuators are not able to extend fully when they are overpowered by the force of the air blowing over them, rendering them ineffective. This can occur at excessive speed when the elevators are opposite the trim (e.g. pulling back on the yoke when trim is nose down). We already knew before the WSJ article that ET302 was at excessive speed and that MCAS was pitching the nose down. So the conditions required for blowback were already established to be present for ET302.

The new information that came out of the WSJ article on Apr 3 was that:
  • The ET302 pilots did follow the Boeing emergency procedures by hitting the Stab Trim Cutouts and trying the manual trim wheel.
  • Apparently, the manual trim wheel was ineffective, so the pilots re-enabled the Stab Trim.

That new information told us that the manual trim wheel was ineffective. Why was the manual trim wheel ineffective? It was NOT ineffective due to Blowback effect (which only pertains to the elevators, not the trim). The manual trim wheel was probably ineffective due to Stabilizer Trim load. That's what the WSJ article proved / added credence to the theory.

I don't doubt that Blowback was also a factor in the incident, but the information from the WSJ article was not related to this. Blowback would have come into play earlier in the timeline, when MCAS first began to pitch the nose down. Let's pretend that Blowback was not real, and the elevator actuators were super strong and could overcome any force. Here's what would have happened:
  • ET302 takes off. AOA sensor is faulty, triggers MCAS.
  • MCAS starts to pitch the nose down.
  • Pilots pull yoke back. Since we have super strong elevators, they can fully extend and counteract full trim nose down.
  • Now the flight is stable and they can take their time to troubleshoot and talk with Maintenance Techs. No need to cutoff Stab Trim and do manual trim wheel.
Unfortunately, Blowback probably was a factor, so pulling back the yokes were ineffective, so then they continued with the Stab Trim Cutoff...
 
XRAYretired
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:49 pm

drew777 wrote:
The FAA is going to rubber stamp the software upgrade no matter what. I hope China and Europe go through proper certification process.

I also hope fellow A-neters stay off the " but the pilot wasn't white, couldn't happen here" bandwagon during the next crash. That was truly disgusting.

Do you believe FAA will ignore the Gongress Oversight sub-committee recomendation for third party lead on certification of the MCAS change whilst they are under investigation?

Ray
 
mwmav8r01
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:56 pm

smartplane wrote:
flybucky wrote:
Turns out that it was the cruise control that had activated after all. But it didn't occur to you because you never set the cruise (STS and MCAS operate during manual flying, not autopilot). And you had been braking, which should have disconnected the cruise (In 737 NG, if you counter Speed Trim System by pulling on the yoke, STS will stop. In 737 MAX, yoke will not stop MCAS.) Instead, you thought it was the gas pedal and fixated on that. The other alarms and shaking added to the confusion. By the way, there was no semi truck behind you, the sensor was faulty. You could have just braked and came to a stop safely.

But, using your car analogy, haven't investigators found MCAS can't be completely turned off (as is the case when you take cars racing, even pulling fuses and relays to cancel stability protection, wheel spin, ABS, etc doesn't work)? And, it can be 'provoked', even when flying in modes it shouldn't, like with flaps deployed, autopilot on, etc for example in climbing turns?



Where have we saw that it isnt possible to turn it off? What did I miss?

https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-7 ... yptr=yahoo

This article shows exactly what fake news is. Glosses right over that they turned the switches back on. Is that following procedures? Its not all on the airplane. Not all on the crew. Not all on the company. Not all on regulators. Theres swiss cheese. The holes all lined up. I hope a good fix is in place
 
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zkojq
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:03 pm

casinterest wrote:
Will people come up with bullshit tests for systems unaffected?

Or will they all work to re-certify based on what is known?


Considering that Boeing lied to the FAA about the maximum deflection that MCAS can move the horizontal stabilizer, I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be retested. Boeing has already lied about MCAS, so what other systems have they lied about? I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be "reaudited" so that compliance can be assured. The FAA completely failed in their duties, so can't really be trusted in this case.
First to fly the 787-9
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:03 pm

mwmav8r01 wrote:
Theres swiss cheese. The holes all lined up. I hope a good fix is in place


currently it looks like any try at fixing it or just ameliorating the outcome pushes another cheese hole in line with the others.
FUBAR.
Murphy is an optimist
 
uta999
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:08 pm

Suppose the software 'fix' and some training fails to satisfy the authorities, the airlines, or the public.

What does Boeing do next, bearing in mind the MAX is still coming off the FAL @ 50-60 per month? That could soon be 500+ grounded aircraft with no Plan B. Is it possible to convert some of them back to NG if it all goes south for the MAX?
Your computer just got better
 
smartplane
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:09 pm

zkojq wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Will people come up with bullshit tests for systems unaffected?

Or will they all work to re-certify based on what is known?


Considering that Boeing lied to the FAA about the maximum deflection that MCAS can move the horizontal stabilizer, I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be retested. Boeing has already lied about MCAS, so what other systems have they lied about? I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be "reaudited" so that compliance can be assured. The FAA completely failed in their duties, so can't really be trusted in this case.

What else has the Boeing MCAS and self-certifying teams and related management touched on the MAX, plus existing and to be released models? Lots of red flags for the FAA to investigate, except they are part of the problem.
 
bob75013
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:09 pm

Boeing's new 737 MAX flight control system 'seems foolproof': Norwegian CEO

"Boeing's new MCAS flight control system for its 737 MAX aircraft appears foolproof, Norwegian Air Chief Executive Bjoern Kjos said on Wednesday after visiting the plane maker in Seattle.

Kjos, a former fighter pilot, said in a series of tweets he had tested the old system versus the new one in a MAX simulator.

...

Kjos said he had tested the old and the new MCAS software "under a malfunction", saying the new system seemed foolproof.

"I hope the regulators will have safety in focus as always and not be directed by politics. I will gladly take my family on board a Norwegian MAX," he added.


..."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings- ... 09730.html
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:11 pm

uta999 wrote:
Suppose the software 'fix' and some training fails to satisfy the authorities, the airlines, or the public.

What does Boeing do next, bearing in mind the MAX is still coming off the FAL @ 50-60 per month? That could soon be 500+ grounded aircraft with no Plan B. Is it possible to convert some of them back to NG if it all goes south for the MAX?


MAGA it.
I expect a try at applying some vector or other of coercive force.
Murphy is an optimist
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:21 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
planecane wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Because the entire trim system seems to be a joke. The only reason it is like it is, seems to be grandfathering. If the resolution to all trim problems is throwing the cut out switches and than being hardly able to trim manually with the wheels and only with tricks and under certain conditions, why keep it that way?
Just because pilots 60 years ago had to use a kludge of a trim system, why not making the live of pilots today easier, with a well thought out easy to use system?

Why rely on the manual trim wheels? Why not have redundancy in the electrical trim? And especially why is there no switch automatic trim off for the guys that love everything manually?


How is it a joke if it has worked fine for 50+ years on 10,000+ aircraft? Doesn't the A320 have some kind of very limited manual backup if the entire FBW system fails? I've read (supposedly posted by pilots who fly them) that there are cutout switches on the 757 and 767 and there are scenarios where they are used. Those aircraft have no trim once you hit the cutout so why is that better?


Because for 50 years the automatic was not actively trying to kill the pilots and passengers.

The MAX is not the NG, so pointing to prior safety statistics is about a senseless as can be.

And what has the A320 to do with it, they are not dropping every few month out of the sky like the MAX

I call something a joke when is a joke. Just because something has been the same for 60 years, is no reason to keep it the same. A trim run away, as one sees on the nice youtube videos is not done on the simulator with a broken AoA sensor, MCAS engaging, stick shaker turned on, stall warning sounding and unreliable airspeed indication and very near to the ground. I like to see those guys turning the hand wheel with full elevator engaged and 2.5% trim the wrong way. Perhaps pilots have been lucky for years, because no automation was trying to kill them.

Turning the trim automatic off, STS and MCAS, only together with manual electrical trim, why?
It's a good question. Video of flight simulator with manual trim shows it to be very difficult to use.
 
jollo
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:28 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
jollo wrote:
That's why under the STAB TRIM CUTOFF label the 737 NG (and the Classic as well, AFAIK) has 2 distinct switches: AUTOPILOT and MAIN ELECT. Switching the AUTOPILOT switch to CUTOFF only deactivates autopilot stabilizer trim operation, leaving the electric trim manual switches on the yoke operative, whereas switching the MAIN ELECT switch to CUTOFF completely kills electric trim at the actuator level.

According to this schematic, the signal STAB TRIM CONTROL (From P6 CB PANEL) that power the big R64 relay pass trough both cutoff switches, so if any of them is in OFF position, the stab trim actuator is not even powered anymore.
Image
From: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1407217&start=1650#p20886627


Interesting. From the 737-8Q8 FCOM (circa 2005):

The STAB TRIM MAIN ELECT cutout switch and the STAB TRIM AUTOPILOT cutout switch, located on the control stand, are provided to allow the autopilot or main electric trim inputs to be disconnected from the stabilizer trim motor.


Also, a slide from a "737 NG Flight Controls" instruction presentation:

Image

Both seem to convey the idea that in the NG the two switches have different effects.

On the other hand, your diagram (dated 2017, so referring to the MAX) seems to indicate that operating any one (or both) switches results in the electric trim actuator to be disbled, so the same net effect.

So why the change between NG and MAX?

BTW, the labels PRI and B/U in the MAX are consistent with the fact that both have the same effect, but it's the whole setup that doesn't make sense: why 2 switches in series that should always be operated together per FCOM?.
Last edited by jollo on Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
hivue
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:31 pm

flybucky wrote:
That new information told us that the manual trim wheel was ineffective. Why was the manual trim wheel ineffective? It was NOT ineffective due to Blowback effect (which only pertains to the elevators, not the trim). The manual trim wheel was probably ineffective due to Stabilizer Trim load


The stabilizer trimming nose down and the pilot pulling on the column nose up likely results in the elevator putting extra load on the stabilizer at high airspeeds, perhaps making trimming with the wheel impossible. Even switching the trim motors back on and using the trim thumb switches may not have been sufficient to overcome that.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
smartplane
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:36 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Boeing's new 737 MAX flight control system 'seems foolproof': Norwegian CEO

"Boeing's new MCAS flight control system for its 737 MAX aircraft appears foolproof, Norwegian Air Chief Executive Bjoern Kjos said on Wednesday after visiting the plane maker in Seattle.

Kjos, a former fighter pilot, said in a series of tweets he had tested the old system versus the new one in a MAX simulator.

...

Kjos said he had tested the old and the new MCAS software "under a malfunction", saying the new system seemed foolproof.

"I hope the regulators will have safety in focus as always and not be directed by politics. I will gladly take my family on board a Norwegian MAX," he added..."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings- ... 09730.html

Perhaps he should talk to MentourPilot before taking his family anywhere on a MAX.

Hopefully he will follow-up on the statement, and do just that as soon as the MAX is cleared to fly.

Perhaps as a Boeing global PR exercise, all operators will be persuaded to fly their Directors on a MAX when ready to return to the air. And senior FAA personnel, Boeing Board and family members, and all those involved in 'fixing' MCAS too. That would be a massive vote of support, and re-assurance to crews and passengers.
 
bob75013
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:40 pm

smartplane wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Boeing's new 737 MAX flight control system 'seems foolproof': Norwegian CEO

"Boeing's new MCAS flight control system for its 737 MAX aircraft appears foolproof, Norwegian Air Chief Executive Bjoern Kjos said on Wednesday after visiting the plane maker in Seattle.

Kjos, a former fighter pilot, said in a series of tweets he had tested the old system versus the new one in a MAX simulator.

...

Kjos said he had tested the old and the new MCAS software "under a malfunction", saying the new system seemed foolproof.

"I hope the regulators will have safety in focus as always and not be directed by politics. I will gladly take my family on board a Norwegian MAX," he added..."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings- ... 09730.html

Perhaps he should talk to MentourPilot before taking his family anywhere on a MAX.

Hopefully he will follow-up on the statement, and do just that as soon as the MAX is cleared to fly.

Perhaps as a Boeing global PR exercise, all operators will be persuaded to fly their Directors on a MAX when ready to return to the air. And senior FAA personnel, Boeing Board and family members, and all those involved in 'fixing' MCAS too. That would be a massive vote of support, and re-assurance to crews and passengers.


He's flown the simulator with both the old and new MCAS software.

Have you?
 
drew777
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:47 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Do you believe FAA will ignore the Gongress Oversight sub-committee recomendation for third party lead on certification of the MCAS change whilst they are under investigation?
Ray


Boeing believes they can get FAA approval with only a software "fix" and training modification. Any system with that much authority should have redundancy. A 3rd AoA sensor should be added and programmed in. They aren't going to spend the money on it though. So no, at this point I don't have full faith in Boeing or the FAA.
 
jollo
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:53 pm

smartplane wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Boeing's new 737 MAX flight control system 'seems foolproof': Norwegian CEO

"Boeing's new MCAS flight control system for its 737 MAX aircraft appears foolproof, Norwegian Air Chief Executive Bjoern Kjos said on Wednesday after visiting the plane maker in Seattle.

Kjos, a former fighter pilot, said in a series of tweets he had tested the old system versus the new one in a MAX simulator.

...

Kjos said he had tested the old and the new MCAS software "under a malfunction", saying the new system seemed foolproof.

"I hope the regulators will have safety in focus as always and not be directed by politics. I will gladly take my family on board a Norwegian MAX," he added..."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings- ... 09730.html

Perhaps he should talk to MentourPilot before taking his family anywhere on a MAX.

Hopefully he will follow-up on the statement, and do just that as soon as the MAX is cleared to fly.

Perhaps as a Boeing global PR exercise, all operators will be persuaded to fly their Directors on a MAX when ready to return to the air. And senior FAA personnel, Boeing Board and family members, and all those involved in 'fixing' MCAS too. That would be a massive vote of support, and re-assurance to crews and passengers.


Har! I am sure a check ride in a 737 MAX with AoA sensors in good order involved no particular risks even before the software patch.

Not let's see Mr. Kjos put his family on board a MAX with the active AoA sensor stuck to max nose-up angle with speed tape: that would be a show of confidence in the effectiveness of the new MCAS software.
Last edited by jollo on Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10697
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:59 pm

jollo wrote:
smartplane wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Boeing's new 737 MAX flight control system 'seems foolproof': Norwegian CEO

"Boeing's new MCAS flight control system for its 737 MAX aircraft appears foolproof, Norwegian Air Chief Executive Bjoern Kjos said on Wednesday after visiting the plane maker in Seattle.

Kjos, a former fighter pilot, said in a series of tweets he had tested the old system versus the new one in a MAX simulator.

...

Kjos said he had tested the old and the new MCAS software "under a malfunction", saying the new system seemed foolproof.

"I hope the regulators will have safety in focus as always and not be directed by politics. I will gladly take my family on board a Norwegian MAX," he added..."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings- ... 09730.html

Perhaps he should talk to MentourPilot before taking his family anywhere on a MAX.

Hopefully he will follow-up on the statement, and do just that as soon as the MAX is cleared to fly.

Perhaps as a Boeing global PR exercise, all operators will be persuaded to fly their Directors on a MAX when ready to return to the air. And senior FAA personnel, Boeing Board and family members, and all those involved in 'fixing' MCAS too. That would be a massive vote of support, and re-assurance to crews and passengers.


Har! I am sure a check ride in a 737 MAX with AoA sensors in good order involves no particular risks, both before and after the software patch.

Not let's see Mr. Kjos put his family on board a MAX with both AoA sensors stuck to max with speed tape: that would be a show of confidence in the effectiveness of the new MCAS software.

The whole point of the simulation is to show what the system/aircraft would do now if it was getting inconsistent and bad data, and what the pilots can do.

If you are suggesting Kjos try and see what if it is like if the system is getting consistent and agreeable data that is 100% incorrect for the situation, then that is down to the skill of the pilots to recognize that the plane is acting incorrectly and do something about it. Whether that is a 737Max or something with more advanced systems like the A320 (which will happily crash the plane for you as long as it thinks it’s data is correct).
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:05 pm

If I may have a soapbox moment...

I am rather frustrated that we as a community appears to be targeting a single point of failure. We blame the pilots exclusively. We blame the process exclusively. Or we blame the MCAS exclusively.

The general reality is not one single item caused the failure and crash of two pristine 737 Maxes, but a combination of them. There are very, very few exceptions.

In my line of work, we have "People, Process, and Technology" repeatedly drilled into us through training, engagements, managers, and more. As I lean on my expertise, I see clear parallels to the failures of all three pillars (people, process and technology) in this instance. If we map a select number of items, we start seeing patterns:

People => Pilots, Knowledge, Skills, and Training
Process => Training Process, and Troubleshooting Process
Technology => MCAS, Hardware, Software, etc.

For example, we know that having correctly trained people and executing the correct set of processes saved the exact same LionAir 737-Max 8 mere hours before it crashed.

We have a very rare, but clear benchmark here that demonstrates having the correct people and executing the proper processes works. When there was a complete failure in people, process, and technology, we had very tragic consequences.

Collectively, we as a community need to be looking at these issues holistically, or we will continue having such tragedies.
Last edited by Bradin on Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
RogerMurdock
Posts: 170
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:13 pm

Bradin wrote:
For example, we know that having correctly trained people and executing the correct set of processes saved the exact same LionAir 737-Max 8 mere hours before it crashed.

We have a very rare, but clear benchmark here that demonstrates having the correct people and executing the proper processes works. When there was a complete failure in people, process, and technology, we had very tragic consequences.


Using that model, "correct people" includes the presence of a jumpseater with more mental bandwidth to observe and suggest troubleshooting. Are you advocating for the return of a third crewmember in the cockpit?
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:12 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:18 pm

RogerMurdock wrote:
Bradin wrote:
For example, we know that having correctly trained people and executing the correct set of processes saved the exact same LionAir 737-Max 8 mere hours before it crashed.

We have a very rare, but clear benchmark here that demonstrates having the correct people and executing the proper processes works. When there was a complete failure in people, process, and technology, we had very tragic consequences.


Using that model, "correct people" includes the presence of a jumpseater with more mental bandwidth to observe and suggest troubleshooting. Are you advocating for the return of a third crewmember in the cockpit?


Excellent question sir, and It's a tough one. I presently do not have a position to support or reject.

However, I will point out that two recent cases come to mind that extra man power did make a difference: Qantas Flight 32 and the flight before Lion Air 610
 
planecane
Posts: 1577
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:29 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
As I say redesign the complete trim system. Manual trim should work in any condition, also with a high load. Automatic trimming should be able to be shut off without disabling manual electric trim.



Are you a pilot or an aerospace engineer? I'm asking because your focus on the trim system doesn't seem logical. Especially given the safety record/sales volume of the 737NG series where the trim system doesn't seem to have cause a single major event.

I am not either one of those things but I am an engineer and I have had time in a 737-800 simulator instructed by a real instructor. It is my understanding that trim (at least in the 737) is there to reduce/eliminate the control column force when flying manually. In my understanding, if you leave the trim in the neutral position, you can use the elevator to get any pitch that you desire. Basically, if the trim system is shut off, you can still fly the plane.

The issue being if the trim system does what MCAS did and goes to full deflection of the stab. At that point, at high speed, it takes a ridiculous amount of force to counteract with the elevator. It also takes superhuman strenght to turn the trim wheel. Maybe somebody with knowlege can answer if those two things would still be true if MCAS only moved the stabilizer 2.5 degrees instead of 5 degrees.
 
Bradin
Posts: 362
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:37 pm

Via ABC News: Sensor damaged by a foreign object on Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX triggered fatal crash: Sources

Fair Use Excerpt: The Ethiopian Airlines Boeing 737 MAX, which crashed in March and killed 157 people, suffered a damaged angle-of-attack sensor upon takeoff from a bird or foreign object, triggering erroneous data and the activation an anti-stall system -- called MCAS -- sending the pitch of the plane downward and ultimately crashing into the ground, two aviation sources familiar with the investigation told ABC News.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/damaged ... d=62139860
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9390
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:55 pm

planecane wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
As I say redesign the complete trim system. Manual trim should work in any condition, also with a high load. Automatic trimming should be able to be shut off without disabling manual electric trim.



Are you a pilot or an aerospace engineer? I'm asking because your focus on the trim system doesn't seem logical. Especially given the safety record/sales volume of the 737NG series where the trim system doesn't seem to have cause a single major event.

I am not either one of those things but I am an engineer and I have had time in a 737-800 simulator instructed by a real instructor. It is my understanding that trim (at least in the 737) is there to reduce/eliminate the control column force when flying manually. In my understanding, if you leave the trim in the neutral position, you can use the elevator to get any pitch that you desire. Basically, if the trim system is shut off, you can still fly the plane.

The issue being if the trim system does what MCAS did and goes to full deflection of the stab. At that point, at high speed, it takes a ridiculous amount of force to counteract with the elevator. It also takes superhuman strenght to turn the trim wheel. Maybe somebody with knowlege can answer if those two things would still be true if MCAS only moved the stabilizer 2.5 degrees instead of 5 degrees.


I am focusing on the trim system, because the trim system caused the airplane to crash. I include in the trim system MCAS and STS.

There is now the information that manual trim with the trim wheel is practically useless in certain situation, when forces are high on tail plane and elevator. I think it is time to stop defending a system,just because it has always been like that and has been grandfathered.

Tell me something positive of this implementation of this trim system, compared to other trim systems today. Would anybody construct a trim system this way today?

MCAS just showed how badly designed this trim system is, ineffective when something goes wrong.
 
Exeiowa
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:18 pm

So what this means is damage to small sticky out, redirects plane into ground. But if only they had hit the button sooner they would have all lived. Yeah ok good design there.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:31 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
You have heard from Ferpe:

"Today we know the crowing from Western pilots, “Typical third world crews,” was not called for. Anyone who has tried a correctly set up MCAS situation in a simulator is more muted."


I have a modest proposal. While we don't know the conclusions of the investigation yet, it seems that there is some information that points to the situation being far more complex than "why didn't the pilots shut it down".

Those of you who kept saying this is merely a pilot issue and a training problem, how about ... some humility? Maybe even an apology? You know something like "well, it seems like it wasn't so simple after all" or "I'm sorry for claiming that it was a pure pilot error"?


It now appears to me the MAX should have been grounded not soon after the initial report for the first crash came out. Boeing by then would have had a very good idea of the failings of the MCAS system by then and would have known that their workaround was risky.
 
RickNRoll
Posts: 1869
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:30 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:36 pm

According to this post from another ex Boeing employee

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st12651539

I agree it's a flawed design. And I used to work there. I'm glad I don't now.

Regarding the trim wheels: When the NG was being introduced, I happened to be the Lead Engineer in charge of them and a whole lot of other stuff. There were some issues. The new display system created a pinch point between the dash and the wheel. We had to make the wheel smaller. And the new trim motor resulted in the wheel, which is directly connected to the stabilizer by a long cable, springing back when electric trim was used. It was an undamped mass on the end of a spring. We had to add a damper.
Result: Depending on the flight conditions, the force to manually trim can be extremely high. We set up a test rig and a very fit female pilot could barely move it.
As I said, I'm glad I'm no longer there.


The trim system was already being compromised years ago.
 
asdf
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:52 pm

XRAYretired wrote:
Do you believe FAA will ignore the Gongress Oversight sub-committee recomendation for third party lead on certification of the MCAS change whilst they are under investigation?


Yes, they can.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:17 am

 
MrBretz
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:51 am

RickNRoll wrote:
According to this post from another ex Boeing employee

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... st12651539

I agree it's a flawed design. And I used to work there. I'm glad I don't now.

Regarding the trim wheels: When the NG was being introduced, I happened to be the Lead Engineer in charge of them and a whole lot of other stuff. There were some issues. The new display system created a pinch point between the dash and the wheel. We had to make the wheel smaller. And the new trim motor resulted in the wheel, which is directly connected to the stabilizer by a long cable, springing back when electric trim was used. It was an undamped mass on the end of a spring. We had to add a damper.
Result: Depending on the flight conditions, the force to manually trim can be extremely high. We set up a test rig and a very fit female pilot could barely move it.
As I said, I'm glad I'm no longer there.


The trim system was already being compromised years ago.


I saw a video recommended a while back on this thread. It had a very calm, I think Dutch pilot, explain trim, the stabilizer, trim wheels, etc. He then showed him trying to show what happened using an older 737 simulator. At one point, they had to turn the trim wheels. He made some off handed comment that you had to be careful handling those things and it might take both the pilot and FO to do it. The pilot was very cool. Said everything was easy to handle. But those trim wheels looked like they could get real scary. I'm not sure where the video is now.
 
FlyBitcoin
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:38 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:13 am

So BA publicizes a single MAX flight today with the new software and the CEO on board that was successfully tested.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/03/reuters ... light.html

Then the stock jumps like $13 after hours on that news. A single test flight? And because the CEO was on board? I don't get it. Wall Street is usually pretty good at pricing in risk but they seem to think that this is just going to be a "software update" like when Apple patches a problem in iOS. They really don't think another shoe is about to drop with this. The WSJ article this morning that the Ethiopian pilots followed procedure more than was previously estimated was only responsible for a $6 decline today. Barely touched a $380+ stock.

Boeing Stock Price....
Day before Lion Air 610 crash: $359
Today......................................: $392
Last edited by FlyBitcoin on Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1334
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:16 am

Boof02671 wrote:


I doubt it.
The reason I doubt it is that pilots on both flights lost both AoA and airspeed indication accuracy.
You can't catch two sensors with one bird...

Same story with Lion Air.
The AoA sensor was replaced and tested, and the next flight same story, well, almost...

Issues in the ADIRU or wiring more likely.
 
User avatar
PixelFlight
Posts: 1026
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:36 am

jollo wrote:
Both seem to convey the idea that in the NG the two switches have different effects.

On the other hand, your diagram (dated 2017, so referring to the MAX) seems to indicate that operating any one (or both) switches results in the electric trim actuator to be disbled, so the same net effect.

And the schematic have a "MCAS ENGAGE" function into the FCC A/B box (center bottom). MCAS only exists on the 737 MAX.

jollo wrote:
So why the change between NG and MAX?

BTW, the labels PRI and B/U in the MAX are consistent with the fact that both have the same effect, but it's the whole setup that doesn't make sense: why 2 switches in series that should always be operated together per FCOM?.

Excellent question. There is certainly a lot of possible scenarios. I try this one: The new MCAS ENGAGE signal is different from the older autopilot signals and can't be mixed before the cutout switches. So Boeing have to add a third cutout switch for the MCAS signal, and this imply pilot training about the handling of this new switch and about the MCAS. As the goal was to not add any MAX training for the NG pilots, there redesigned the cutout switches to what's actually into the MAX. Maybe the confusion about the events that could require to cutout the stab trim was already there when the MAX was designed.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 11764
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:56 am

smartplane wrote:
zkojq wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Will people come up with bullshit tests for systems unaffected?

Or will they all work to re-certify based on what is known?


Considering that Boeing lied to the FAA about the maximum deflection that MCAS can move the horizontal stabilizer, I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be retested. Boeing has already lied about MCAS, so what other systems have they lied about? I don't see why the rest of the plane shouldn't be "reaudited" so that compliance can be assured. The FAA completely failed in their duties, so can't really be trusted in this case.

What else has the Boeing MCAS and self-certifying teams and related management touched on the MAX, plus existing and to be released models? Lots of red flags for the FAA to investigate, except they are part of the problem.

Boeing didn't lie. They omitted details about a subsystem behavioral change that they though would save lies. Without a review process from external safety experts , they allowed a change to be made that cost many lives. Lives that cannot be reclaimed. The bargain of the change was that the pilots would remember their memory items to stop a runaway stabilizer. This was not checked with the pilots, and what the pilots didn't know cost many lives , and there can be no amount of bargaining to make up for those lost lives.

However stating the above. Boeing is making good on making a change to fix the MCAS, and a hearty review should be made by the FAA, and other certifying agencies including the airlines. The airplane manufacturing association is not like many other industries in the US. There are few manufacturers, and few certifying agencies. EASA should be involved. Their skipping of the initial rollout of a potential fix is bullshit. They should have been front and center even if not invited as a vested interest in Aviation safety. Their input should be valuable within and without, and that is the issue currently . Airbus and Boeing incestuously breed their own vesting parties. We need all parties present to represent the airlines, the consumers, and the airline industry to present a safe product.

When the final reports come out, Boeing will own a lot of the blame for the undocumented changes to MCAS, but the Pilots and Airlines will own a lot of issues due to CRM and training. If the Ethiopian crash is as similar to the Lion Air crash as we are all led to believe, then a lot of questions need to be asked of their Chief Pilots and Trainers as Boeing issued guidance 4 months before the crash to deal with these issues with MCAS.

The FAA and ETAS should retrench in light of the above and work hard to cross certify and verify vital changes to flight control behavior.
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