hivue
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:08 am

planecane wrote:
There is no chance somebody said "the pilots are not going to know what to do so they'll end up crashing but we can't have a training requirement so it sucks to be on that flight."


Agreed -- but I'm not so sure no Boeing engineer said, "I think the pilots are not going to know what to do in some cases" and was told "We think they always will." This would be where money/shareholder return coming before common (engineering) sense/best practice might have played a role.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
barney captain
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:14 am

Again, planecane gets it.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:04 am

xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:14 am

SEU wrote:
morrisond wrote:
SEU wrote:
Question for those more knowledgeable, are there any other mainstream planes that need a computer to maintain flight stability or is it just the MAX? Because my understanding this plane needs it because of the positioning of the Engines makes it unstable during climb?

My worry here is that the plane might not be allowed to fly again if this is not a normal thing. Boeing can and will fix the MCAS /software issues, but will authorities around the world allow a plane that needs a computer to maintain stability or will they decide thats too far?


Totally not right - the MAX would be fine without MCAS - it is stable - MCAS just keeps the controls from feeling too light at High Angle's of Attack which would make it easier for a Pilot to pull it into a stall - if they ignore the Stick Shaker, the audio warnings and the frame buffeting - making it extremely unlikely even the worst pilots in the world would put it in stall.


That's not my understanding, my understanding is that the Engines make the plane pitch up and to make it feel and operate like a NG they installed the MCAS and didnt tell anyone about it.... If the plane was fully 100% stable, the MCAS wouldnt be needed.


Your understanding is incorrect. Whatever you think about Boeing and the FAA, neither organization is about to certify an unstable airplane.

The MAX may have less stability near stall than needed to meet the stall handling certification requirements, but it is not unstable. As I have said previously, the MAX is not the first airplane to require "fixing" in this region. A FBW airplane may have a similar solution to MCAS in "Normal" mode that the pilot is entirely unaware of.

If Boeing had fitted MCAS.v2 originally, I doubt that we'd be talking about it today.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:24 am

barney captain wrote:
Again, planecane gets it.
Mentour pilot showed a runaway trim procedure in action. They had problems with the effort needed to turn the trim wheel. They also didn't have the multitude of other alerts that are experienced when MCAS failed due to faulty AoA which could lead to pilot overload. Do any of the other failure modes do this?

What would have made sense was a switch to disable all automated trim while still leaving manual electric trim working. I would have thought it's just a matter of making procedures as simple and direct as possible.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:36 am

Ertro wrote:
After Lion Air crash and before Ethiopian crash Boeing had 5 months to study how their existing MCAS system really works and to understand every problem related to it. This is needed as a necessary first step in the process of trying to fix the design that had already crashed once. This was surely a high priority item closely monitored by high management because there had been a crash that people had lost lives. Now comes the second Ethiopian crash with the design that Boeing surely at this moment already understands inside and out also in high management what it means.

Boeing still says that keep on flying. No need to stop. We have no immediate fix to offer tomorrow morning and no immediate changes to the ipad training.
Just keep on flying everything the same as what has crashed already 2 times. It is perfectly safe to do so.

How that situation jives with the sentiment in:

planecane wrote:
There is no chance somebody said "the pilots are not going to know what to do so they'll end up crashing but we can't have a training requirement so it sucks to be on that flight."


I agree. What worries me even more is the statements since the grounding from Boeing all suggest they are in a big hurry to get these planes flying again. And all they are actually doing is applying a bandage or Elastoplast to a badly designed plane.

My genuine belief is that with the amount of flights that this badly designed plane is planned to make and the amount of new orders in the pipeline that a badly designed plane can ONLY lead to more disasters with time compared to a well designed plane

I don't care about all the positive posts or the blame game I simply care that somewhere at some stage in the next couple of years another 150 people plus are going to die and families have their lives destroyed again until FINALLY everyone accepts you can't certify a plane thats added even a small amount of risk to the equation

The very fact we are saying extra things need to be trained to try and deal with potential issues that weren't there before IMO proves this plane is a failure and I don't care how good or detailed the training is we shouldn't be designing planes that need this level of human intervention to deal with potential issues that shouldn't even have a chance of occurring with a better designed frame

We've added risk and we've brought human intervention needs into a plane that shouldn't be needed. It's a total recipe for more disasters when it flies again. This terrifies me. I don't believe it's a matter of IF a future disaster occurs linked to the poor design but a matter of WHEN?

To those defending the plane or arguing for better pilot training are you guys not equally worried about future disasters like me?

It's still not putting safety first.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:52 am

One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is Boeing using paid adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 48768?s=20
Last edited by Interested on Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bradin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:56 am

Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:01 am

Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Number one I'm glad you find it unacceptable (or at least I assume you do by trying to blame someone else - the usual Boeing defence nowadays it seems)

Number two - I own a business - anything anyone does for my business on my behalf is my responsibility. Same applies to Boeing surely??

So I've no idea what the answer to your question is. But it's actually irrelevant. It just shows someone has done it on Boeings behalf that Boeing feels is trustworthy to represent their company. (Either a direct Boeing employee or a business they pay to represent them)

To me it just shows how poor and broken Boeing is in so many ways now that someone can make decisions like that and think it's acceptable
Last edited by Interested on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:02 am

Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Having experience in working at global corporations social media department, I can assure you they do. Heck, some of a.net members may even be on their payroll, for sure.
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
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Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:05 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Having experience in working at global corporations social media department, I can assure you they do. Heck, some of a.net members may even be on their payroll, for sure.


That was my exact thoughts. Where does it end. Are we debating with people on here who are on the payroll for Boeing PR?
 
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zeke
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:05 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The MAX may have less stability near stall than needed to meet the stall handling certification requirements, but it is not unstable. As I have said previously, the MAX is not the first airplane to require "fixing" in this region. A wFBW airplane may have a similar solution to MCAS in "Normal" mode that the pilot is entirely unaware of.

If Boeing had fitted MCAS.v2 originally, I doubt that we'd be talking about it today.


The main difference between non FBW and FBW in these situations to me is the feedback loop in the FBW system, FBW would stop control changes when the desired output is achieved. The 737 is very mechanical, if a condition is met, an output continues to be generated like MCAS does.

I have talked to some other 737 pilots as to what else could have been going through the crews minds. They have told me that a blocked static port will also present some of the same symptoms as what these pilots saw, split air speeds, inaccurate altitude, stick shaker, and even wind shear warning. Also mentioned to me that a broken AOA on the NG can cause the elevator feel shift module (EFSM) to increase the control column feel 4 times as it triggers at 11 degrees. So unless this was changed on the MAX, they would have to counter the extra control column force generated by the EFSM in addition to the MCAS changes.
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Bricktop
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:25 am

Interested wrote:
That was my exact thoughts. Where does it end. Are we debating with people on here who are on the payroll for Boeing PR?

It is the internet in 2019. I have my suspicions about the integrity and objectivity and lack thereof of several posters here. That goes above and beyond the typical fanboy or trolling poster.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:31 am

Bricktop wrote:
Interested wrote:
That was my exact thoughts. Where does it end. Are we debating with people on here who are on the payroll for Boeing PR?

It is the internet in 2019. I have my suspicions about the integrity and objectivity and lack thereof of several posters here. That goes above and beyond the typical fanboy or trolling poster.


If the money's right - I'm available to be bought off by anyone at Boeing or their PR company?

Just send me a private message guys!

(That's a joke by the way)
 
barney captain
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:33 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


Be very careful Sir - you're teetering on professional observations backed up with knowledge, experience and sound reasoning.

There's very little room for that here. :bigthumbsup:
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:37 am

barney captain wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


Be very careful Sir - you're teetering on professional observations backed up with knowledge, experience and sound reasoning.

There's very little room for that here. :bigthumbsup:


Did the previous 737 have it? I'm assuming the answer is no.

Its OK saying it's on other planes. But this plane was supposed to be the previous plane but better and safer surely?

Hence why it can get certified as safe etc?

It's got extra issues to face with either software and human intervention that weren't there before

It's inherently a plane that's got more risks and more things that can go wrong

For a plane due to have 5000 plus orders and 25000 flights per day it's a recipe for disaster introducing more things that can go wrong

Only needs a tiny amount extra risk to lead to an unacceptable extra amount of disasters

This is so basic to me

What am I missing?
Last edited by Interested on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:52 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


Is there an aerodynamic solution? By which I mean, is there a solution involving the shape of the fuselage, wings, appendages etc that could solve, or contribute to solving, this issue that would then negate the need for MCAS?
 
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hilram
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:57 am

Jamie514 wrote:
According to a Canadian Press article being carried on CTVnews.ca, Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau says any airline operating MAX8 into Canadian airspace will be required to include simulator training.

If true, this confirms earlier WSJ reporting of a possible break with the FAA, and possibly goes even farther by requiring the same of foreign carriers using the airspace, even those who might not face this training requirement under their own regulatory regime.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pilots-must ... -1.4385223

I expect no less from EASA since their original MAX certification came with the condition of simulator training, Everybody just forgot about it when the deliveries started rolling out.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:01 am

hilram wrote:
Jamie514 wrote:
According to a Canadian Press article being carried on CTVnews.ca, Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau says any airline operating MAX8 into Canadian airspace will be required to include simulator training.

If true, this confirms earlier WSJ reporting of a possible break with the FAA, and possibly goes even farther by requiring the same of foreign carriers using the airspace, even those who might not face this training requirement under their own regulatory regime.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pilots-must ... -1.4385223

I expect no less from EASA since their original MAX certification came with the condition of simulator training, Everybody just forgot about it when the deliveries started rolling out.


The fact extra training is needed surely isn't disputed any more

But that fact is only down to poor design

So the plane has failed before its even started?

And if we need extra pilot training for the plane to be safe and their intervention for new things that can go wrong we have added risk

We should never ever have got to this situation. It should be unacceptable. We've gone backwards.
 
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scbriml
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:15 am

Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Seriously? How is that not exactly the same thing? SMH.
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Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:20 am

scbriml wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Seriously? How is that not exactly the same thing? SMH.


As usual it's try and blame anyone but Boeing

Anything that's not good - blame someone else

Lol
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:22 am

Interested wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Bradin wrote:

Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Seriously? How is that not exactly the same thing? SMH.


As usual it's try and blame anyone but Boeing

Anything that's not good - blame someone else

Lol


Whether it's Boeing direct or Boeing PR - apparently the exact same thing happened in 2013 when the Dreamliner was grounded. Adwords were bought to get Boeing positive statements ahead of the rest.

That's the way they roll
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:26 am

Elementalism wrote:
It isnt trivial from a coding perspective. And since they are under a spotlight now. They have to make sure the code\logic is upto snuff.


And conforming to coding and tools certification requirements.
FROM DAY ONE.

Do they have to start from new like the BAE hobbyists^Hpeople doing the TP400D6 FADEC software ?
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aerolimani
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:27 am

aerokiwi wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


Is there an aerodynamic solution? By which I mean, is there a solution involving the shape of the fuselage, wings, appendages etc that could solve, or contribute to solving, this issue that would then negate the need for MCAS?

What comes immediately to mind is larger horizontal stabilizer with more effective elevators.

The real question is whether there’s an aerodynamic solution which would have got the plane to market within Boeing management’s desired schedule, satisfied their desire for absolute minimum transition training, and which also wouldn’t have affected the grandfathered certification. The answer to that question is almost certainly a big N-O-no.
 
Noshow
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:14 am

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


The trim force applied via MCAS and the horizontal stabilizer (originally beyond what the pilot's manual elevator input could compensate) seems to be way stronger than just needed for a little "feel" fine tuning to make it closer to the NG.
I wonder if a future MAX is flying with the new MCAS deactivated how that MAX raw flight behavior will feel in slow flight and how this can be trained?
 
flybucky
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:31 am

"Air Canada said it was the only carrier in the United States and Canada with 737 MAX simulators."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1RU2F5
 
flybucky
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:42 am

SEU wrote:
are there any other mainstream planes that need a computer to maintain flight stability or is it just the MAX? Because my understanding this plane needs it because of the positioning of the Engines makes it unstable during climb?

The 737 NG has a Speed Trim augmentation system:

Excerpt from the sim 737-800 FCOM 9.20.9:

Speed Trim System

The speed trim system (STS) is a speed stability augmentation system designed to improve flight characteristics during operations with a low gross weight, aft center of gravity and high thrust when the autopilot is not engaged. The purpose of the STS is to return the airplane to a trimmed speed by commanding the stabilizer in a direction opposite the speed change. The STS monitors inputs of stabilizer position, thrust lever position, airspeed and vertical speed and then trims the stabilizer using the autopilot stabilizer trim. As the airplane speed increases or decreases from the trimmed speed, the stabilizer is commanded in the direction to return the airplane to the trimmed speed. This increases control column forces to force the airplane to return to the trimmed speed. As the airplane returns to the trimmed speed, the STS commanded stabilizer movement is removed. STS operates most frequently during takeoffs, climb and go-arounds.
 
RickNRoll
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:43 am

barney captain wrote:
Again, planecane gets it.
Except that from what I have read the better procedure to follow would have been unreliable air speed.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:07 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls.

[...]

MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating.


This is playing with semantics a bit, though...

While what you wrote is technically true (and you've certainly given the more complete picture), the intention of the system is to prevent the pilot initiating stall - *for certification purposes*.

Certain people stating flat out that it has nothing to do with stall and that the plane is stable and could be certified without it are painting a very different picture for readers who don't know the ins and outs of aircraft systems and certification, and that smacks of astroturfing.

Edit: and as mentioned above, the fact that it was made much more forceful during flight test makes me suspicious about how benign the difference near stall actually is. If it's *that necessary* then it seems to have become more about stability and less about pilot aid.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
asdf
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:25 am

RickNRoll wrote:
... from what I have read the better procedure to follow would have been unreliable air speed.


in the aftermath its easy
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:26 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Bradin wrote:
Interested wrote:
One of the worst things I've read in recent weeks is that Boeing have paid for adwords to get their own statements about safety above the other Boeing stories on the internet about the plane

Nothing should shock me any more about what goes on behind the scenes. But the above really upsets me. It's so cynical.


Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Having experience in working at global corporations social media department, I can assure you they do. Heck, some of a.net members may even be on their payroll, for sure.


Where does the conspiracy end? How do you know Boeing doesn’t secretly own Airliners.net via a secret subsidiary? Maybe some of the more vocal members here are being tailed home by private investigators? They must get tired of masterminding these schemes all day every day.
 
seb76
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:46 am

SFOtoORD wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
Bradin wrote:

Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


Having experience in working at global corporations social media department, I can assure you they do. Heck, some of a.net members may even be on their payroll, for sure.


Where does the conspiracy end? How do you know Boeing doesn’t secretly own Airliners.net via a secret subsidiary? Maybe some of the more vocal members here are being tailed home by private investigators? They must get tired of masterminding these schemes all day every day.


American corporations are generally never ashamed to use every possible communication tools and chanels to spread their word. They probably also believe that when you repeat the same lie many times at different places, even though some well informed people will get more upset, most will start believing it (like the radios playing the same crappy song over and over again until you start liking it).

I remember a year or two ago, I was "receiving" those sponsored ads on Facebook praising the qualities of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 and how it would be a perfect product for the Belgian Army. That my profile would show up when doing queries on "aviation hobby" + "belgian" was probably enough to be targetted.
I was quite half amused, half upset that LM deemed necessary to spent money on trying to convince people like me that my country had to buy their junk. I have zero influence on my country's governement other than being able to vote and the comments below their advertising were anything but polite. Clearly that strategy was counter-productive and naïve, but since Lockheed Martin finally got the deal, it was actually not their money but MY taxes they were spending in advance ;-)
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 am

barney captain wrote:
How do you reccomend airlines like AA and WN train their pilots in a MAX sim - when they haven't been able to purchase one? WN won't have it's first MAX sim online until late this year - a full year after we started flying them.


They shouldn't be flying them until they can train. Simples. If that means no AA or WN MAX flights - so be it. Boeing can pay the compo as Boeing recommended no retraining.

***At this point, I'd recommend a ICAO mandate on future aircraft sales contracts - training or retraining should never legally be allowed to form part of the agreement - as we see what taking shortcuts can do. If the commercial pressure to avoid retraining didn't exist, then we likely would not have lost both aircraft.***


Do you give a kid a driving license just because you cannot find a car to train and test them in?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:02 am

planecane wrote:
The minimal training approach was not the issue. Even hiding MCAS wasn't really the issue. The issue was the completely asinine implementation of how the algorithm will respond in the case of a failed AoA sensor. That's it. If they had designed MCAS from the start the way it is being changed to, there would be no significant training needed and there wouldn't have been 2 crashes.


- Incorrect. If they had been trained in dealing with MCAS failures they would have had a much greater chance of saving both aircraft.
- Incorrect. If they had been aware of MCAS from the start, then the deactivation approach would not have required hiding in behind trim runaway.
- Implementation is an issue. But not the only issue.


You have redundancy in aerospace for a reason. Redundancy is not just about back up structure, its about backup systems, backup processes and backup training. Otherwise why not just let a computer fly the aircraft and do away with the pilots. Sure any failure is solely due to the algorithms and can be corrected right?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:05 am

planecane wrote:
I am well aware of that. My point is that they could have still hidden MCAS and met the minimal training requirements if they would have designed MCAS properly from the get go. Nobody would have needed to know it existed. The worst that would have happened is a few cases of uncommanded nose down trim that would have been easily corrected by the manual electric trim.


Nope - you should not be in the business of hiding systems that affect controls.

If MCAS can have a different failure tree from runaway stabilizer, then it needs its own deactivation routine.
 
uta999
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:26 am

I still can't believe Boeing are still building the MAX at a rate of over 42 a month, with no clue as to how they can get the certificate back.

There are already 500 grounded planes waiting for a fix, solution, modification, update, training, and no simulators either with or without said modification. The 787 debacle (faulty wing join, high weight, dodgy wiring, batteries) looks like a well-managed program by comparison.

This is now ten times worse than the 787, which cost $35B to fix. Could it get any worse for Boeing? To add to that, this is a 50 year old design which ain't getting any younger, like performing open heart surgery on someone very very old.
Your computer just got better
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:32 am

I think there's a real danger here that the focus goes on training or not

But the bigger issue is should this plane design be certified full stop. If it differs so much from the plane it's supposed to be grandfathered from then why is it still certified to fly regardless.

It's actually good for Boeing to get the focus and debate onto training which they can at least support at some stage rather than should this plane even be certified as a safe enough design to start with

That's where the bigger debate should be IMO
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:47 am

uta999 wrote:
I still can't believe Boeing are still building the MAX at a rate of over 42 a month, with no clue as to how they can get the certificate back.

There are already 500 grounded planes waiting for a fix, solution, modification, update, training, and no simulators either with or without said modification. The 787 debacle (faulty wing join, high weight, dodgy wiring, batteries) looks like a well-managed program by comparison.

This is now ten times worse than the 787, which cost $35B to fix. Could it get any worse for Boeing? To add to that, this is a 50 year old design which ain't getting any younger, like performing open heart surgery on someone very very old.


I'm sure there's an attempt happening to railroad something through and not even have any debate on whether the design is safe and correct to be certified

Pretending things aren't as bad as they actually are
 
mandala499
Posts: 6587
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:12 am

Bricktop wrote:
Interested wrote:
That was my exact thoughts. Where does it end. Are we debating with people on here who are on the payroll for Boeing PR?

It is the internet in 2019. I have my suspicions about the integrity and objectivity and lack thereof of several posters here. That goes above and beyond the typical fanboy or trolling poster.

So which one am I? a Boeing Basher or a Disinformant on the Payroll of Boeing Payroll ???? (I've been accused of being both at the same time... LOL
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
asdf
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:27 am

uta999 wrote:
I still can't believe Boeing are still building the MAX at a rate of over 42 a month, with no clue as to how they can get the certificate back.
.


this is high politics now
and @ trump times the investors @ boing can be shure the birds will fly soon
and they will fly worldwide soon
thrust me

if EASA tries to make a second guess in that MAX case whole Europe will be imposed by US sanctions ...
 
uta999
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:35 am

asdf wrote:
uta999 wrote:
I still can't believe Boeing are still building the MAX at a rate of over 42 a month, with no clue as to how they can get the certificate back.
.


this is high politics now
and @ trump times the investors @ boing can be shure the birds will fly soon
and they will fly worldwide soon
thrust me

if EASA tries to make a second guess in that MAX case whole Europe will be imposed by US sanctions ...


That will make it even worse for Boeing and obvious for all to see, and a third fatal accident inevitable.
Your computer just got better
 
kalvado
Posts: 1818
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:37 am

hivue wrote:
planecane wrote:
There is no chance somebody said "the pilots are not going to know what to do so they'll end up crashing but we can't have a training requirement so it sucks to be on that flight."


Agreed -- but I'm not so sure no Boeing engineer said, "I think the pilots are not going to know what to do in some cases" and was told "We think they always will." This would be where money/shareholder return coming before common (engineering) sense/best practice might have played a role.

There are definitely situations where little can be trained. All engines out above a storm, for example.
Those situations are envisioned, and cannot be totally eliminated whatever redundancies are in place. What can be done is eliminating these situations as much as possible; 1 in a billion or so per certification requirements. But when that happens - well, it sucks to be on that flight.
As far as I remember, Gimli glider pilots found out there is no both engines inop checklist. Hard to put something like an abandoned airport on a formal checklist.
 
asdf
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:03 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:38 am

Bradin wrote:
Are we sure Boeing paid for the adwords? Is it possible that the public relations firm Boeing hired to do damage control paid for the adwords?


thats part of the business
and I am pretty sure even here in the forum are some parts of that campaign

nothing evil with that
the manufactures of the busses would do that the same way if they would have been in a similar situation

what really would help again such campaigns would be frequently updated fact check postings once a week or once a month
like we saw them in earlier threads of that magnitude (MH370 and kinda ..)

simply facts
brought in context
but no conclusions outside the context

you can not make successful PR in veiling of reality if you have a weekly fact check showing your foul play
Last edited by asdf on Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1084
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:38 am

seb76 wrote:
SFOtoORD wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:

Having experience in working at global corporations social media department, I can assure you they do. Heck, some of a.net members may even be on their payroll, for sure.


Where does the conspiracy end? How do you know Boeing doesn’t secretly own Airliners.net via a secret subsidiary? Maybe some of the more vocal members here are being tailed home by private investigators? They must get tired of masterminding these schemes all day every day.


American corporations are generally never ashamed to use every possible communication tools and chanels to spread their word. They probably also believe that when you repeat the same lie many times at different places, even though some well informed people will get more upset, most will start believing it (like the radios playing the same crappy song over and over again until you start liking it).

I remember a year or two ago, I was "receiving" those sponsored ads on Facebook praising the qualities of the Lockheed-Martin F-35 and how it would be a perfect product for the Belgian Army. That my profile would show up when doing queries on "aviation hobby" + "belgian" was probably enough to be targetted.
I was quite half amused, half upset that LM deemed necessary to spent money on trying to convince people like me that my country had to buy their junk. I have zero influence on my country's governement other than being able to vote and the comments below their advertising were anything but polite. Clearly that strategy was counter-productive and naïve, but since Lockheed Martin finally got the deal, it was actually not their money but MY taxes they were spending in advance ;-)


So we went from some Google ads to an indictment of a nation. Wow.
 
Aither
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:48 am

Jamie514 wrote:
According to a Canadian Press article being carried on CTVnews.ca, Canadian Transport Minister Marc Garneau says any airline operating MAX8 into Canadian airspace will be required to include simulator training.

If true, this confirms earlier WSJ reporting of a possible break with the FAA, and possibly goes even farther by requiring the same of foreign carriers using the airspace, even those who might not face this training requirement under their own regulatory regime.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pilots-must ... -1.4385223


Considering what Boeing / USA has done to Bombardier we should expect Canada to play hard on this one.
Never trust the obvious
 
Interested
Posts: 647
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 12:19 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:02 pm

mandala499 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Interested wrote:
That was my exact thoughts. Where does it end. Are we debating with people on here who are on the payroll for Boeing PR?

It is the internet in 2019. I have my suspicions about the integrity and objectivity and lack thereof of several posters here. That goes above and beyond the typical fanboy or trolling poster.

So which one am I? a Boeing Basher or a Disinformant on the Payroll of Boeing Payroll ???? (I've been accused of being both at the same time... LOL


Depends who's paying the most at the time

(That's a joke as well)
 
xmp125a
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:23 pm

asdf wrote:
uta999 wrote:
I still can't believe Boeing are still building the MAX at a rate of over 42 a month, with no clue as to how they can get the certificate back.
.


this is high politics now
and @ trump times the investors @ boing can be shure the birds will fly soon
and they will fly worldwide soon
thrust me

if EASA tries to make a second guess in that MAX case whole Europe will be imposed by US sanctions ...


You forgot that

1) Democrats are in control in the House and would 1) cry bloody murder over that make Boeing's life very difficult (you know "corporation that puts profits before safety")
2) Rest of the world can boycott Boeing as well if it turns out that unsafe plane is trying to be forced upon their throats
3) There is new 777, which went to the similar certification procedures which are now under investigation so Boeing's position is even more precarious
4) There were people at EASA who obviously have been silenced so the first 737MAX certification could be OKd. These people probably now have immense clout in organizations where they are employed simply by saying "I told you so" and there is no force that will shut up them NOW for the sake of politics.
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 985
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:27 pm

I think one should keep in mind there is really nothing wrong with the Max other than an incredibly botched add on auxiliary control system. No reason EASA shouldn't re-certify once it is fixed.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3435
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:30 pm

flybucky wrote:
"Air Canada said it was the only carrier in the United States and Canada with 737 MAX simulators."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-air- ... SKCN1RU2F5



Boeing has several MAX sims and they/were being used by various airlines. Your point is well taken, none the less.
 
xmp125a
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:32 pm

barney captain wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
xmp125a wrote:
The stall prevention feature of MCAS is not needed if pilots have some sim time, to train on this "stall afinity" in very small part of the flight envelope where MAX's new engines cause different aerodynamic handling that NG. The other reason for MCAS, the feeling of the column, could be probably solved separately.


No amount of simulator time would have eliminated the need for MCAS on the MAX. The issue was that the MAX stall entry Flaps Up did not meet the certification requirement for steadily increasing stick force until the airplane stalls. MCAS was a solution to this problem. The MAX is not the first airplane to have this issue and the solutions range from aerodynamic to electronic and/or combinations of the two.

And once again, MCAS was not a stall prevention device. The pilot could still stall the MAX with MCAS operating. MCAS was designed to make sure the stall entry stick force did not "lighten" duding the stall entry.


Be very careful Sir - you're teetering on professional observations backed up with knowledge, experience and sound reasoning.

There's very little room for that here. :bigthumbsup:


Don't be insulting. I have explained myself - I am engineer, not a pilot. I am here to get opinions and facts from the people more knowledgeable to me, because I am in position to traing young people on system desgn and engineering. Regarding MCAS, we don't have even good idea what exactly was MCAS intended to be, and suspicions that MCAS was declared as X while being X, Y and Z at the one time are not entirely unfounded.

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