Andy33
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:12 am

1lovetotravel1 wrote:
Is this type of plane supposed to be grounded worldwide? How is that i was a passenger in one on March 24th of this year?

Not like i was scared or anything, but this question has puzzled me for some time. I even took a picture of the emergency instructuons so i had proof i was in one.

Or have i misunderstood and it's up to the airlines if they are to be used ir not?


Boeing 737MAX8 and Boeing 737-800 aircraft can share a common emergency instruction card, because from the passengers point of view there is no difference in what they should do in an emergency and the layout of the cabin is identical. Airlines that have both types of plane save money by only printing the one card for both fleets. The 737MAX9 and 737-900 share cards too.

It is extremely likely you flew on a 737-800 or 737-900. Some of the on-line flight data sites failed to update their databases in the immediate aftermath of the grounding, but if you share the flight number with us, someone will be able to tell you definitively what model of aircraft you were on, and even its registration.

No 737MAX flights are permitted anywhere in the world without special authorisation, which is only given for flights repositioning planes empty to somewhere more suited for storage and/or modification, or test flights by Boeing or national aviation authorities. All of these tend to use either specialist test pilots or exceptionally experienced airline staff.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:15 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
I agree with your post to certain extent, but this should be a facts based discussion.

Many individuals have made claims that the 737 MAX is unstable and that's the reason MCAS is needed.

Others, myself included, believe the MAX is stable but its pitch characteristics require MCAS to pass FAA stall handling characteristics.

Shouldn't the discussion hinge on available data and new data as it is brought to the table to support either of these two positions?


I agree with the above of course. The issue is that as Kalvado notes, there's lack of data. We do not have a graph of aircraft behaviour and natural (un-amended) stick forces for the MAX. And the other thing that has been recently discussed for which we have no real data is the forces needed to turn the manual trim under different flight conditions. There seems to be a lot of opinions of both, which I think is fair for the discussion. But presenting anything out of those opinions as the final truth is a bit early in my opinion. For instance, a statement in the press isn't a graph of forces. As an engineer I'd like to have a graph to understand the situation, instead of a sentence that someone provided. Similarly for the manual trim forces, the data that we have is rather anecdotal, e.g., pilot experiences that may not have exercised the difficult conditions such as control surfaces being loaded while trimming, or may have been replicated in a simulator for which have absolutely no idea whether it matches reality at all.
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:58 am

AirwayBill wrote:
On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.


Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0


Interesting. I wonder if these people are liars and angry pro-union workers too, seeing as that's the only reason anyone would ever want to call out Boeing's practices.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:33 am

AirwayBill wrote:
On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.


Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0


Yes, I saw that yesterday. This sounds to me like the smoking gun wrt. the avionics anomalies (I've been waiting for an explanation of those since the Lion Air crash) - surprised it's been rather ignored on these threads...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
art
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:02 am

crimsonchin wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.


Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0


Interesting. I wonder if these people are liars and angry pro-union workers too, seeing as that's the only reason anyone would ever want to call out Boeing's practices.


Like a little sarcasm now and then. ;)

Re: FO damage, foreign objects have been discovered on a number of occasions on the 767 tanker. What is happening at Boeing?
Last edited by art on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
oschkosch
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:06 am

Flyadeal decision on the way regarding possible cancellation of order or not:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gulf ... SKCN1S404H

“We’ve kept an open position in terms of which way we will go on fleet given the situation with the MAX,” Con Korfiatis told Reuters at the Arabian Travel Market exhibition in Dubai.

“At the moment we still don’t have a decision but it is imminent.”

Flyadeal has ordered 30 Boeing 737 MAX 8s with purchasing options for 20 more in a deal Boeing said was worth $5.9 billion at list prices.

The airline, owned by the government of Saudi Arabia through state carrier Saudia, has not finalised contractual terms and would be able to cancel the order if it wants to do so.

“It was effectively on the basis of an MoU (memorandum of understanding) subject to final agreements. We haven’t signed final contracts,” Korfiatis said in an interview.
 
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zeke
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:12 am

AirwayBill wrote:
On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019. The concerns reported were wiring damage to the AoA related wiring as result of foreign object damage as well as concerns with the TRIM CUTOUT switches. The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.


Source: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0045&opt=0


I have mentioned wiring as a possible cause beforehand, looking at the JT preliminary report it is something that is common to the previous fault history.

JT preliminary report the following were stated stated to have occurred

Speed Flag
Altitude Flag
Speed trim fail
Mach trim fail
Auto-throttle Arm disconnect
IAS and ALT disagree
feel diff press

Common causes for these

Speed flag
ADIRU
DEU
Pitot Air Data Module
Wiring from ADM to ADIRU
Wiring from the ADIRU to the DEUs

Speed trim fail
Stab Trim Electric Motor
Stab Trim Relay
Column Switching Module
A/P Trim Cutout Switch
Flight Control Panel
Wiring
Flight Control Computer

Mach trim fail
Mach Trim Actuator
Integrated Flight System Accessory Unit
Flight Control Panel
Wiring
Flight Control Computer

Altitude flag
ADIRU
DEU
Static Air Data Module
Wiring from ADM to ADIRU
Wiring from the ADIRU to the DEUs
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:41 am

WIederling wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
is in higher g regions ( like a coordinated turn ) nearer 1.5g than 1g.


Stick force requirements must be passed for both 1.0g flight and in turning flight.

There's information that it looks like the 1.0g is pretty benign without MACS. With MCAS, 1.0g stall stick forces are probably a sure pass.

I don't have any data yet on higher "g" (turning flight) stalls. Do you? If so, I'd love to see it.

me neither. but you can estimate.
"working" AoA for the same speed and higher load ( via increased g ) will be higher.
Higher in proportion than the increased load would suggest. AoA vs lift is not linear but slightly degressive
lift vs drag:
Image
( until you reach the turning point in lift generation when it turns mostly draggy :-)


Thanks, but this won't help you estimate stall handling for a MAX in a 1.5g turn.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Another opinion relative to the Ethiopian accident.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-457693/
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
kalvado
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:27 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Another opinion relative to the Ethiopian accident.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-457693/

Makes me wonder how desperate Boeing actually is. Seems like next surprise will emerge from the accounting department... Enron and Theranos in one shot?
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:31 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Thanks, but this won't help you estimate stall handling for a MAX in a 1.5g turn.


which was not my intention.
My intention was to take away relevance from a "see, everything is OK" video that shew stall to be benign in a 1g environment.

Nice PR gimmick but not suitable for the task.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:22 pm

There's an article on Business Insider today claiming airlines may switch to Airbus as it's an easier and safe plane to fly than Max 737

Blaming pilots for not responding well to incidents like this may backfire on Boeing long term

Ie don't put the pilots in that position to fail again

It's potential lose lose lose for Boeing in that respect

1) A plane crashes - people don't trust it and won't buy it - Lose. (Solution they should have focused on designing safer planes)

2) Blame the plane for the crash - people don't trust it and won't buy it - Lose
(Solution - they should have focussed on designing safer planes)

3) Blame pilots for the crash - sounds good in comparison to blaming the plane - but can lead airlines to buying other planes where pilots skills aren't needed to same extent and training not needed to same extent. Lose.
(Solution - they should have focussed on designing safer planes)

So end of day - whatever blame they want to try and apportion or divert - they lose regardless. They may find blaming pilots could do them as much damage as blaming the plane long term. Same end result. Airlines don't buy the plane anymore.

Safety has to be paramount long term for all concerned. Or if not you lose.

That's the way it should be and im sure it will be. Grounded or not grounded. People have to trust the plane to be as safe as possible.

Will airlines themselves want to risk their own reputation if their own pilots crash a plane that needs more skills than other planes to fly. Why would an airline take that risk??
 
ArgentoSystems
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:13 pm

Interested wrote:
There's an article on Business Insider today claiming airlines may switch to Airbus as it's an easier and safe plane to fly than Max 737

It is not that simple. Airbus has limited capacity and can't suddenly start making twice the number of planes.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:21 pm

ArgentoSystems wrote:
Interested wrote:
There's an article on Business Insider today claiming airlines may switch to Airbus as it's an easier and safe plane to fly than Max 737

It is not that simple. Airbus has limited capacity and can't suddenly start making twice the number of planes.


They could gradually ramp up production though. The money will be there. Of course it's not simple but blaming pilots is NOT going to be the long term easy answer Boeing may think it could be.

The article states that airlines want to invest in commercial planes that actually need LESS experience and skills than before to be flown safely. And that Boeing have gone the opposite way. If Boeing or FAA or anyone else highlight lack of skills or experience in pilots involved in crashes this could actually do them more long term damage than good with sales of these planes as it will scare the airlines away from using them full stop. When planes crash the airlines cannot afford the stigma of their pilots being at fault for the crash and won't take the risk on planes that need more skills and experience to fly than others.

It makes sense and it's good for the long term safety of passengers that airlines themselves cannot risk the safety of their passengers with more difficult planes to fly that need more training and skills.
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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zeke
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:27 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Another opinion relative to the Ethiopian accident.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-457693/


I totally agree with this

“Procedures for unreliable airspeed indications typically require the autopilot and autothrottle to be disengaged. But the crew persisted with activating the autopilot on the unreliable side, proceeding with an intended climb to cruise altitude – apparently selecting 32,000ft rather than the cleared 34,000ft – and leaving the thrust at the take-off, rather than climb, setting. Despite the continuing stick-shaker activation, the flaps were retracted.”

I cannot understand their mindset to do that.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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crimsonchin
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:29 pm

The Airbus defection thing is nothing more than a fantasy, if it'd have happened, it'd have happened by now. Some airlines are probably a bit irritated with Boeing, but no one will be running to buy A320s because of this.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:36 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
The Airbus defection thing is nothing more than a fantasy, if it'd have happened, it'd have happened by now. Some airlines are probably a bit irritated with Boeing, but no one will be running to buy A320s because of this.


How could it have happened by now? There would still be penalties for cancelling contracts at this stage.

Contracts will have exit clauses in but they won't kick in this early. And the safety reports etc aren't out yet.

If these planes do need extra training that wasn't part of an initial contract (as seems likely) that itself may allow airlines to cancel contracts etc

Future orders will be on a waiting list whichever plane the airlines favour from now on
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:49 pm

Interested wrote:
The article states that airlines want to invest in commercial planes that actually need LESS experience and skills than before to be flown safely. And that Boeing have gone the opposite way. If Boeing or FAA or anyone else highlight lack of skills or experience in pilots involved in crashes this could actually do them more long term damage than good with sales of these planes as it will scare the airlines away from using them full stop.

:checkmark: This actually not only scare the airlines, but the public in general, Never heard so much private discussions about an aircraft safety problem in so various contexts. The money vs safety perception is largely shared. A software fix is just plain ridiculous to address this.
 
kalvado
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:50 pm

crimsonchin wrote:
The Airbus defection thing is nothing more than a fantasy, if it'd have happened, it'd have happened by now. Some airlines are probably a bit irritated with Boeing, but no one will be running to buy A320s because of this.

Events are still unfolding. If Boeing wants to blame crews for crashes, then significant step up in training is a must. Effectively the message is that anyone with 737 type certification should start anew. WHo pays? What would be the success rate - is "airmanship" trainable, or are there enough people who can be trained? New trainings to support the growth.. How much cheaper A320 or E195 rating is?
Then there is insurance industry as an independent risk underwriter - and requirements for higher skills mean higher risks.

I bet Boeing is doing what they do because their planning horizon is shrinking, survival is the short term goal and deal with everything else as it comes.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:56 pm

But long term if the airlines and public demand planes that don't need extra pilot skills to be flown safely then this plane is doomed no matter what it does short term to get it back in the air

One of the observations of the article is the skills and experience simply aren't out there and that airbus design their automated systems accordingly to fit the market place

Let's not forget the initial design and promises of Max 737 was a plane that needed no extra training. We assume this is driven by finances but it's interesting to consider it may also be driven by demand of what the airlines want

The FAA guidelines for certifying safe planes also propose easier and more simple planes to fly

Everything lines up so that demand for these planes requires NO TRAINING and less pilot skills

All the "fix" solutions I have read for Max 737 involve more training and more pilot skills. And that's from the Boeing supporters on here!

That means the plane doesn't actually fit the market place needs (grounded or not). It's not what airlines want to commit to or buy?

How do you solve that with a software patch?

Max 737 biggest strength right now appears to be Airbus can't build it's rival plane fast enough!!

Not a good place for Boeing to be. And long term I'm not sure what they can do to change this. They've needed up with a white elephant
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
StTim
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:13 pm

I think you are way too pessimistic about the Max. It had a flaw in a feature that was not well publicised. That was a fubar beyond all doubt.

Is the basic Max safe - yes as long as the MCAS didn't erroneously come into action. Will the fix resolve this? I am pretty certain this aspect will be one of the most tested and examined for any feature on a production frame.

Will the flying public fly on the Max? 95% haven't a clue what plane they fly. Of those that do the majority will still go with it after the safe certification. I mean come on millions choose to be treated like cattle and with disdain and fly Ryanair!

Will this mortally wound Boeing? No.
Will this change the certification and grandfathering rules - I suspect the answer to that is yes.

Will this potentially change pilot training - I suspect yes. We will need more rigourous training. May cost a few $ on your ticket though!
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:20 pm

StTim wrote:
I think you are way too pessimistic about the Max. It had a flaw in a feature that was not well publicised. That was a fubar beyond all doubt.

Is the basic Max safe - yes as long as the MCAS didn't erroneously come into action. Will the fix resolve this? I am pretty certain this aspect will be one of the most tested and examined for any feature on a production frame.

Will the flying public fly on the Max? 95% haven't a clue what plane they fly. Of those that do the majority will still go with it after the safe certification. I mean come on millions choose to be treated like cattle and with disdain and fly Ryanair!

Will this mortally wound Boeing? No.
Will this change the certification and grandfathering rules - I suspect the answer to that is yes.

Will this potentially change pilot training - I suspect yes. We will need more rigourous training. May cost a few $ on your ticket though!


But long term if this plane needs more rigorous training than its rival - and the airlines don't want that (and that's not all about cost it's about pilots and approach to safety) then how does this plane meet the market place demands?

And regardless of how rarely MCAS goes wrong in the future - how does that stop the fact to fly this plane pilots will need the extra pilot training and more skills for the few times it does go wrong. ? Training that the airlines don't want to be part of the future of commercial planes?

We can't just guess which pilots may be the unlucky ones and just give them the training and skills to deal with MCAS malfunctions?

Will it mortally wound Boeing?

No I'm sure it wont. Fortunately it's a huge business.

Will it force them to rethink - long term I'm sure it will. It's going to have a huge impact.

Long term they can't force a plane on airlines that doesn't fit the requirements?

Ps (don't put this on me. My posts today are in response to a Business Insider article - where they spoke to airbus but where Boeing declined to comment)

I'm just passing on what is in the article

Airbus appear to have already recognised that many airlines want planes that require less skills and less experience to fly. The article actually says this is because of deteriorating pilot skills around the world.

TBF you can argue Boeing recognised the same fact but just haven't been able to deliver the plane to satisfy what airlines need

Regardless of who has to pay for extra pilot training - the airlines don't have the appetite for planes that need pilot skills and want planes that are safer with automation. That's fair enough. And it's what the FAA themselves promote as the safest way forward. So you can't blame the airlines. Airbus is proven to have delivered what airlines now want. Boeing tried to step in but may have failed.
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:35 pm

StTim wrote:
Will this change the certification and grandfathering rules - I suspect the answer to that is yes.


If that's the case then why should the plane that shows existing grandfather rules don't work be allowed to fly again?

Or is it just every plane after this one that has to abide by new safer grandfather rules?

And we just slap this one a bit?
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:40 pm

StTim wrote:

We will need more rigourous training. May cost a few $ on your ticket though!


Not on Airbus we wouldnt?

There is a choice. Which is the whole theme of the Business Insider article

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... ?r=US&IR=T

And the choice will push airlines to favour airbus
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:53 pm

2 bad articles in one day for Boeing. This is a summary of a Wall Street Journal article that claims twice before the two disasters occurred that the FAA considered grounding Max 737 for safety concerns around MCAS

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... ?r=US&IR=T


It never rains - it pours!
 
WIederling
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:57 pm

Interested wrote:
StTim wrote:

We will need more rigourous training. May cost a few $ on your ticket though!


Not on Airbus we wouldnt?


As it happens Airbus has started a "better, improved training program" campaign.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-454236/
Murphy is an optimist
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:59 pm

WIederling wrote:
Interested wrote:
StTim wrote:

We will need more rigourous training. May cost a few $ on your ticket though!


Not on Airbus we wouldnt?


As it happens Airbus has started a "better, improved training program" campaign.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-454236/


To make a safe plane safer

(It's good to do the above from a position of strength and not as a reaction to a disaster)
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:31 pm

Interested wrote:
There's an article on Business Insider today claiming airlines may switch to Airbus as it's an easier and safe plane to fly than Max 737

Blaming pilots for not responding well to incidents like this may backfire on Boeing long term

Ie don't put the pilots in that position to fail again

It's potential lose lose lose for Boeing in that respect

1) A plane crashes - people don't trust it and won't buy it - Lose. (Solution they should have focused on designing safer planes)

2) Blame the plane for the crash - people don't trust it and won't buy it - Lose
(Solution - they should have focussed on designing safer planes)

3) Blame pilots for the crash - sounds good in comparison to blaming the plane - but can lead airlines to buying other planes where pilots skills aren't needed to same extent and training not needed to same extent. Lose.

(Solution - they should have focussed on designing safer planes)

So end of day - whatever blame they want to try and apportion or divert - they lose regardless. They may find blaming pilots could do them as much damage as blaming the plane long term. Same end result. Airlines don't buy the plane anymore.

Safety has to be paramount long term for all concerned. Or if not you lose.

That's the way it should be and im sure it will be. Grounded or not grounded. People have to trust the plane to be as safe as possible.

Will airlines themselves want to risk their own reputation if their own pilots crash a plane that needs more skills than other planes to fly. Why would an airline take that risk??


While blame may be necessary to sort out the legal liabilities after an accident, it is not the path to a safer air transport system.

For any accident, OEM's, Certifying Agencies, Airlines, and Flight Crews need to examine and understand their responsibilities and contributions to the event. Fixing only one factor in the chain that lead to a specific accident may not help overall system safety.

All parties need to eliminate their shortcomings if the overall air traffic system safety level is going to be maintained or improved.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:34 pm

Has anybody read the WSJ article on a safety feature from the 737 that Boeing is alleged to have turned off for the MAX, I searched, and could find no other reference to such a thing.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:40 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Has anybody read the WSJ article on a safety feature from the 737 that Boeing is alleged to have turned off for the MAX, I searched, and could find no other reference to such a thing.


The article says it was a warning indicator (about malfunctioning sensors) that Boeing chose to de-activate without telling either South West or the FAA

This was before the Lion crash

After the Lion crash Southwest airlines insisted it was activated again. At the same time FAA officials discussed grounding Max 737 whilst pilots received extra training but chose not to

There was also a second time grounding the planes was discussed by FAA but not taken after the alert was de-activated. Again when FAA officials exchanged emails asking if pilots needed more training

It's all coming out slowly but surely

Plus we have Boeing whistle blowers coming forward at the same time. Nothing will get missed I'm sure
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
MrBretz
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:44 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Has anybody read the WSJ article on a safety feature from the 737 that Boeing is alleged to have turned off for the MAX, I searched, and could find no other reference to such a thing.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeings-en ... 1556456400
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:46 pm

MrBretz wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Has anybody read the WSJ article on a safety feature from the 737 that Boeing is alleged to have turned off for the MAX, I searched, and could find no other reference to such a thing.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeings-en ... 1556456400


My phone told me I needed to subscribe to read the above

This article below doesn't need a subscription on my phone

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing- ... ?r=US&IR=T
 
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ssteve
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:47 pm

AOA disagree is present on WN NGs, and was absent from the WN MAX until it dawned on someone after the Lion Air crash that it wasn't part of the WN package? Sheesh. I can see how that would be disturbing to, well, everyone. Or is it not on the NGs? Business Insider sort of implies that it is.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:50 pm

ssteve wrote:
AOA disagree is present on WN NGs, and was absent from the WN MAX until it dawned on someone after the Lion Air crash that it wasn't part of the WN package? Sheesh. I can see how that would be disturbing to, well, everyone. Or is it not on the NGs? Business Insider sort of implies that it is.


Turned off by Boeing without telling FAA or the airlines

That's a deliberate decision Boeing have taken unilaterally

At some stage Boeing employees must have at least discussed doing this with EACH OTHER and why it was a good idea?
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:12 pm

ssteve wrote:
AOA disagree is present on WN NGs, and was absent from the WN MAX until it dawned on someone after the Lion Air crash that it wasn't part of the WN package? Sheesh. I can see how that would be disturbing to, well, everyone. Or is it not on the NGs? Business Insider sort of implies that it is.


At the time it was optional - did WN not order it or did Boeing screw up the order. Cant read the article.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:18 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
ssteve wrote:
AOA disagree is present on WN NGs, and was absent from the WN MAX until it dawned on someone after the Lion Air crash that it wasn't part of the WN package? Sheesh. I can see how that would be disturbing to, well, everyone. Or is it not on the NGs? Business Insider sort of implies that it is.


At the time it was optional - did WN not order it or did Boeing screw up the order. Cant read the article.


This seems to be different from what we thought before

It says in 2017 the decision was taken to de-activate the warning indicator. Without telling FAA or the airlines.

This implies it was something that was initially part of a system and taken away?

That's far different to it never being in place and an optional extra
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:24 pm

Reading the article - there was a standard alert on earlier 737s.

For the Max some new alerts were also introduced that you had to pay for extra. But only if you paid extra was the previous standard alert also enabled

And neither the FAA nor the airlines were aware that the standard alert they were used to having was removed and now part of the add on package

This happened in 2017. It only became known to the FAA and airlines after the Lion Crash.

So it wasn't just new MCAS alerts that you had to pay for. The Max was being used with the existing standard alert disabled. And this was a decision taken by Boeing employees without informing anybody else.

Shockingly bad IMO

After the Lion crash FAA under pressure from South West insisted the standard alert was re-enabled. Obviously we also eventually ended up with the add on paid for package being made standard as well at some stage.
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:29 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
ssteve wrote:
AOA disagree is present on WN NGs, and was absent from the WN MAX until it dawned on someone after the Lion Air crash that it wasn't part of the WN package? Sheesh. I can see how that would be disturbing to, well, everyone. Or is it not on the NGs? Business Insider sort of implies that it is.


At the time it was optional - did WN not order it or did Boeing screw up the order. Cant read the article.


Boeing chose to turn it off for the Max. This wasn't the optional extra alerts for MCAS that at the time you had to order and pay for. This was the existing standard alert for disagree for 737s that Boeing chose to disable without telling anyone. They chose to make a safe plane less safe in more than one way clearly.

If the article is correct
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:30 pm

zeke wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Another opinion relative to the Ethiopian accident.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-457693/


I totally agree with this

“Procedures for unreliable airspeed indications typically require the autopilot and autothrottle to be disengaged. But the crew persisted with activating the autopilot on the unreliable side, proceeding with an intended climb to cruise altitude – apparently selecting 32,000ft rather than the cleared 34,000ft – and leaving the thrust at the take-off, rather than climb, setting. Despite the continuing stick-shaker activation, the flaps were retracted.”

I cannot understand their mindset to do that.


I´m happy I wasn't stupid in the Ethiopian thread asking
Grizzly410 wrote:
My question is on the AP activation, is this normal to engage the AP less than a minute after take off with the stick shaking and two warnings? (I admit I´m not sure what is an "autopilot warning")
Didn't they recognise the IAS situation ? And even, how could the AP engage for 33s with an AoA disagree ?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1417519&start=4550#p21257809 #4598

It seem they had the mindset to continue "business as usual" style.
Stick shaker, 2x warning : Let´s engage the AP :? What was the plan they had no chance to put in place after that ?
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
ltbewr
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:45 pm

A lot of people hit on Boeing as to the 737 MAX and the 787, but Airbus has its own issues as to automated control systems like with AF447 for example which were extensively discussed here. Boeing may have made a terrible mistake with the development of the 737 MAX, so wouldn't lose market share to Airbus 320 and related series, but Airbus made a terrible mistake with the A380, miscalculating the market and likely to lose Billions of Euros from its decision.

Both Boeing and Airbus need to look at the reality that maybe tech/automation has practical limits and need to take more care in further automation so don't end up in conflicting situations or making it impossible to properly fly their planes.

Both Boeing and Airbus have to spread around work to outside their bases for political and economic reasons, adding costs and making it more difficult to assure proper design and construction.

There needs to be better grooming and training of pilots, less expensive to learn how to become a pilot, better pay for pilots in their early years and on smaller 'commuter' airlines. It is not very good to pay someone flying humans more like in term of real time working for a pay rate like a worker at McDonald's. If they are smart and good enough to be pilots they will look to areas of work that pay better up front, allow them to afford to pay off loans and don't have the responsibility of flying.

I suspect 10 years from now, both Boeing and Airbus will be dealing with a China based company making perhaps more advanced, more efficient and cheaper B737/A320 range aircraft. They have 1000's of engineers they can pay cheap vs. the rest of the world, they have a national and regional governments that will invest big time. Of course, China will continue to steal technology or are already in JV's with both for assembly of aircraft and major components. I suspect China based companies and engineers will be deeply involved in both A & B's clean sheet replacements to save costs and extortion by China that to buy A or B aircraft, the must give some of the work, good paying jobs and profits to their country.
 
Interested
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:54 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A lot of people hit on Boeing as to the 737 MAX and the 787, but Airbus has its own issues as to automated control systems like with AF447 for example which were extensively discussed here. Boeing may have made a terrible mistake with the development of the 737 MAX, so wouldn't lose market share to Airbus 320 and related series, but Airbus made a terrible mistake with the A380, miscalculating the market and likely to lose Billions of Euros from its decision.

Both Boeing and Airbus need to look at the reality that maybe tech/automation has practical limits and need to take more care in further automation so don't end up in conflicting situations or making it impossible to properly fly their planes.

Both Boeing and Airbus have to spread around work to outside their bases for political and economic reasons, adding costs and making it more difficult to assure proper design and construction.

There needs to be better grooming and training of pilots, less expensive to learn how to become a pilot, better pay for pilots in their early years and on smaller 'commuter' airlines. It is not very good to pay someone flying humans more like in term of real time working for a pay rate like a worker at McDonald's. If they are smart and good enough to be pilots they will look to areas of work that pay better up front, allow them to afford to pay off loans and don't have the responsibility of flying.

I suspect 10 years from now, both Boeing and Airbus will be dealing with a China based company making perhaps more advanced, more efficient and cheaper B737/A320 range aircraft. They have 1000's of engineers they can pay cheap vs. the rest of the world, they have a national and regional governments that will invest big time. Of course, China will continue to steal technology or are already in JV's with both for assembly of aircraft and major components. I suspect China based companies and engineers will be deeply involved in both A & B's clean sheet replacements to save costs and extortion by China that to buy A or B aircraft, the must give some of the work, good paying jobs and profits to their country.


I think it's a bit unfair but typical on here for airbus to be dragged down into this alongside Boeing. At this stage at least. But so be it.

You may well be right about China taking the most advantage long term. I hope they put safety first.

I'm reading Embraer (Brazilian conglomerate) are also already benefitting from new orders that would likely have gone to Boeing

The more choice and competition the better in the future. Hopefully this starts driving safety back up again longer term. Despite this debacle we now face.
Last edited by Interested on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AIRT0M
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:57 pm

@ltbewr

What do issues with automated systems have to do with the A380? Weird comparison.
 
BravoOne
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:16 pm

TO: ALL PILOTS
FROM: XXXXXXX—SENIOR DIRECTOR COMPLIANCE, OPERATIONS, & PROCEDURES DATE: APRIL 23, 2019 AS OF 1530 CDT REVISION: 2
RE: BOEING MAX 8 FLEET SOFTWARE ENHANCEMENT
REF #19-10
This Flight Ops Update will be updated as more information is available. Please take note of the revision number and date/time of publish.
Revision 2
Last week, Boeing representatives briefed an audience including Southwest Senior Leadership, Flight Ops, Tech Ops, Inflight, NOC, and our unions on what is known about the two Boeing 737 MAX accidents and the changes Boeing is implementing to facilitate the MAX return to service.
While Boeing disclaimed any intent to preempt the ongoing investigations in either accident, it appears to be that AOA inputs are at the center of the MCAS activation in both events. Without speculating about either accident, based on the available public information, the focus is on:
 How the problem presented itself in each instance (stick shaker/Airspeed Unreliable); and
 What non-normal checklist(s) (if any) were accomplished to mitigate the situation as presented.
Regardless, substantial Boeing software changes are underway, and the MAX will not fly in revenue service again until the software is re-configured and the FAA lifts its emergency order.
The new FCC 12.1.1 software is intended to make the MAX Speed Trim System more robust. Three layers of safety are added to the Speed Trim System:
1. MultiplesourcesofAOAinputrequiredtoactivateSpeedTrim(nottoexceeda5.5degree difference in AOA)
2. Function limited to one activation per high AOA event
3. MCAS authority is limited to ensure that the stabilizer does not overcome elevator authority
Simply said, Boeing is reacting to the Lion Air and Ethiopian tragedies by adding multiple, additional layers of protection, completing work that began immediately following the Lion Air crash.
With the new software loaded, if an AOA sensor either fails on the ground or is subject to damage immediately after takeoff, a stick shaker will activate, and the Crew will recognize the issue, confirm the indications, then recover. In this case, the Airspeed Unreliable Non-Normal Checklist would be applied. If the Crew continues to clean up the aircraft (one might argue against retracting flaps through a stick shaker, errant or not), item #1 would result in the illumination of the the SPEED TRIM FAIL light and the disabling of the Speed Trim System (to include MCAS). In the highly unlikely case that item #1 fails, item #2 would limit the MCAS to one activation per event, dampening the overall amount of nose down trim input by the system (unless the AOA indication returns to below the threshold level for activation, to include a new conservative mid-value function). And finally, if items #1 and #2 fail, item #3 would provide that anytime MCAS activates, the stabilizer trim will be limited such that enough elevator authority

remains to climb with a 1.2 g authority with manual control inputs.
Accordingly, please note that, with the new FCC 12.1.1 software, an AOA failure would present itself as a basic Airspeed Unreliable event (we trained these last year and have included four events in this year’s CQT). Because the new software provides an engineered mitigation for the error state that occurred in the Lion Air and Ethiopian accidents on multiple levels, the FAA Flight Standardization Board concluded that no device level training will be necessary before MAX return to service.
Boeing continues to coordinate with appropriate regulatory agencies and will provide the CBT (Distance Learning), FCOM updates, MMEL, Service Bulletin, and Training Topics for all operators when possible. An overarching RBF will outline the path forward to resumption of MAX operations once the new materials become available.
Thank you for your continued professionalism. Please refer policy questions to XXXXXXXXX and technical questions to XXXXXXXX.
Additional Q&A:
Q: What are the three layers of protection added to the Speed Trim System via FCC Software 12.1.1?
A: The three layers of protection added to the Speed Trim System:
 Multiple sources of AOA input required to activate Speed Trim (not to exceed a 5.5 degree
difference in AOA)
 Function limited to one activation per high AOA event
 MCAS authority is limited to ensure that the stabilizer does not overcome elevator authority
Q: What other changes to Flight Control Laws did Boeing make on the MAX and were they reviewed in this latest flight control review?
A: Yes, the following were also reviewed and no changes are considered warranted:
 Landing Attitude Modifier
 Maneuver Load Alleviation
 Emergency Descent Spoilers
 Elevator Jam Assist
Q. Why was MCAS included on the MAX in the first place?
A. A FAR Part 25 requirement exists for a steady increase in stick force with an increase in angle of attack (or G load). In one region of the flight test envelope, where a Pilot would have disregarded multiple policy and procedural steps, at an airspeed below BUFFET ALERT, AIRSPEED LOW, and stick shaker, there exists a regime where stick forces do not continue on a linear path as AOA increases. The deviation is detectable by test equipment, but not by most Pilots (it is in single digits of pounds of force). Thus, in an effort to be compliant with the certification standards, Boeing utilized Speed Trim (as it had in the past) to influence control column feel in a certain part of the flight regime. Boeing also emphatically reiterated that MCAS is NOT a “stall prevention system,” as referenced by almost every news outlet to date. MCAS is an element of the Speed Trim System designed to improve aircraft handling characteristics.
Q. Why did Boeing not discuss MCAS in the manuals?
A. According to Boeing, MCAS is a function of Speed Trim, and the only change was that it had to operate while the stick was pulled back past the aft column stab trim cutout switch thereby enabling the additional function (as designed) that would operate like Speed Trim. The Boeing team also relayed the same system architecture had been used on the NG, so its use on the MAX seemed appropriate. The AOA sensors used on the 737 are the same as those on the 757, 767, and 777 and are extremely reliable (75,000 hours mean time between failure). Therefore, the likelihood of a problem seemed very remote—and even if one manifested itself, a Pilot manually flying can always trim out any forces put in by the system.

Q. Who determined that it is okay to operate the aircraft without MCAS, if it was required as part of original type certification?
A. Though there has been no change to the requirements for type certification (thus the need for MCAS), flight tests with an -800, a MAX 8 with MCAS, and a MAX 8 without MCAS indicated no appreciable differences between the three test conditions; therefore, no device training is required. Boeing relayed that twelve conditions were performed in all three cases with the same Test Pilots from multiple regulatory agencies. If for some reason a MAX ends up with an inoperative Speed Trim System once in flight, the Crew can easily continue to operate the aircraft safely.
Revision 1
MAX 8 Re-entry into Service
Our joint XXXXXXXXX Team stands ready for direction from the FAA regarding the path forward. This path starts with a FAA-issued Airworthiness Directive (AD) for the MAX fleet that is anticipated to publish soon.
Once the AD publishes, the following actions must occur prior to MAX re-entry into service:
Boeing will:
 Release a FCC software update via Service Bulletin (SB) to all carriers.
 Provide a Computer Based Training (CBT) module to all carriers.
 Revise the Boeing Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) guidance to reflect the new FCC
software.
Southwest will:
 Update the MAX fleet with the new FCC software and ensure compliance with the Boeing-issued
SB. As we understand it, this software is focused on three areas: o Improving MCAS activation logic.
o Enhancing angle-of-attack (AOA) inputs to MCAS.
o Limiting MCAS stabilizer-command authority.
 Obtain FAA approval for CBT and any necessary changes to Company manuals.
 Publish required CBT Training for Pilot viewing.
 Track CBT completion.
 Update Company manuals to align with FCOM updates.
 Publish a Training Topic aid via myMobile365.
 Take such further action as is necessary to fully accomplish the FAA-issued AD.
The timeline to return the MAX 8 into service is dependent on the completion of the above mentioned tasks from all respective entities and the FAA lifting the Emergency Order issued on March 13. We will continue to update you as we move forward.
Revision 0
This evening, Boeing released this statement regarding a software enhancement for the MAX 8 fleet. While there has been no official implication of MCAS in the recent tragedy to date, the heightened awareness makes this fix even more relevant. We are in the process of evaluating exactly what this software update means for our operation, but Southwest fully supports measures that further strengthen the Safety and reliability of our aircraft.
We will update you as we learn more.
cc: Delete
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:35 pm

Thank BravoOne.

If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Andy33
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:44 pm

ltbewr wrote:
There needs to be better grooming and training of pilots, less expensive to learn how to become a pilot, better pay for pilots in their early years and on smaller 'commuter' airlines. It is not very good to pay someone flying humans more like in term of real time working for a pay rate like a worker at McDonald's. If they are smart and good enough to be pilots they will look to areas of work that pay better up front, allow them to afford to pay off loans and don't have the responsibility of flying.


Thing is, in most of the world these "smaller commuter airlines" just don't exist, or are so small that they need only a handful of pilots. North America is not at all typical and different solutions are needed for the majority of the world
 
kalvado
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:47 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Thank BravoOne.

If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing.

Boeing said what they were already saying. Their opinion matters only that much by now; it is EASA and CAAC.
And Boeing/WN effectively deny blowback effect here - which is basically the fourteenth strike of the clock.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:07 pm

kalvado wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Thank BravoOne.

If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing.

Boeing said what they were already saying. Their opinion matters only that much by now; it is EASA and CAAC.
And Boeing/WN effectively deny blowback effect here - which is basically the fourteenth strike of the clock.


An important part of BravoOne's post is this paragraph:

"Though there has been no change to the requirements for type certification (thus the need for MCAS), flight tests with an -800, a MAX 8 with MCAS, and a MAX 8 without MCAS indicated no appreciable differences between the three test conditions; therefore, no device training is required. Boeing relayed that twelve conditions were performed in all three cases with the same Test Pilots from multiple regulatory agencies."

It sounds like several regulatory agencies are all ready involved. At a minimum, this probably means EASA and Transport Canada and may mean CAAC.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
kalvado
Posts: 1896
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:15 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
kalvado wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Thank BravoOne.

If read completely, this should answer a lot questions posed on this Board and confirm what many have been expressing.

Boeing said what they were already saying. Their opinion matters only that much by now; it is EASA and CAAC.
And Boeing/WN effectively deny blowback effect here - which is basically the fourteenth strike of the clock.


An important part of BravoOne's post is this paragraph:

"Though there has been no change to the requirements for type certification (thus the need for MCAS), flight tests with an -800, a MAX 8 with MCAS, and a MAX 8 without MCAS indicated no appreciable differences between the three test conditions; therefore, no device training is required. Boeing relayed that twelve conditions were performed in all three cases with the same Test Pilots from multiple regulatory agencies."

It sounds like several regulatory agencies are all ready involved. At a minimum, this probably means EASA and Transport Canada and may mean CAAC.

And again - what is between the lines? Were those tests done on stall entry or what? Was said for ages, and not even disputed: within normal flight envelope, there is no need for MCAS, and MAX is quite similar to NG. Devil is always in details...
 
WPIAeroGuy
Posts: 295
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Thank you BravoOne, that's very enlightening.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
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NeBaNi
Posts: 446
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Re: B737MAX Grounded Worldwide

Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:13 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A lot of people hit on Boeing as to the 737 MAX and the 787, but Airbus has its own issues as to automated control systems like with AF447 for example which were extensively discussed here. Boeing may have made a terrible mistake with the development of the 737 MAX, so wouldn't lose market share to Airbus 320 and related series, but Airbus made a terrible mistake with the A380, miscalculating the market and likely to lose Billions of Euros from its decision.

The cynic in me would rather have a program that miscalculated the market and lost billions of Euros from its decision without killing a single person, than a program that was developed so Boeing wouldn't lose market share to the Airbus A320 and ended up killing 350-odd people.

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