User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1541
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
Cathay777300ER wrote:
I think while it is a concern that groundings are happening before further information is discovered.


Why?

Ground, ascertain the airframe is safe, then lift the grounding.

If preliminary data gathered over the next 24-48hrs indicates that there is no systematic problem, then the aircraft should be airborne again before the end of the week.

If it turns out there is a problem, then the move to ground could have saved many lives.



I'm not really understanding the logic where folks need to see a smoking gun before taking precautions.


Because it costs money.
Last edited by gatibosgru on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@DadCelo
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1942
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm

maint123 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Does anyone follow what Greg Feith (NTSB) posted on facebook? Sounds like pilot error in all 3 crashes. ET, Atlas and Lion air (MX problem identified there).

Ex NTSB. pl don't post fake information here.
Just heard him on radio and sounds like a paid shill of Boeing. Hope he gets sued by the 2 airlines.
Here are the comments he makes in a deadpan voice -
1. Lions air crash was due to poor maintenance and fault of the pilots as " in 3 previous flights, the pilots flew the plane".
2. Since copilot had 200 hours, it was EA fault.
3. 8300 hrs of flight time of the captain means nothing as E A just got the max.
4. Concluded by saying that would have to be investigated whether the wrong airspeed in EAs case was due to maintenance.

NTSB?? What a clown. Absolutely no comment on Boeing.


He has a lot more credibility than anyone posting here. I'm sure his friends from the NTSB have kept him in the loop outside of work.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2299
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm

There will be scrambles to get wet leases arranged quickly. Due to it being a quiet time in the Northern Hemisphere, there will be airframes around, but not all will be ready to go.

There will be some lag before the leasing system catches up.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:05 pm

seat1a wrote:
Slightly off-topic, what is happening on the operations side of the business to compensate for aircraft being grounded? Are there spares in an airlines fleet? What contingencies have been put into motion since this accident? Thanks.


Airlines have probably some capacity left, its a “good” things this didn’t happen during summer season.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:06 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Retired, not canceled, not withdrawn, not revoked, but retired! As in no new 737 model allowed. It was long overdue even before the two recent crashes. What does a MAX have in common with a 737-100? They do not belong on the same type certificate.

So according to your “expertise” the 737max is so flawed that is should be discontinued and Boeing should exit the 150’seat market. All this based on 2 accidents of which we don’t know the cause or the solution. And yes Boeing wouldn’t be forced out of the 150-200 seat market for the foreseeable future. So I want to know what your background is to make such a demand.



Didn't you know that everyone here has a PhD in aeronautical engineering with 25+ years work experience?


Nobody gets a say on flight safety apparently unless they have a PhD in Aero Eng and 25+ years experience?

I have two masters (aero and astro) from an American service academy and two decades in the air force with several tours as an engineering officer. Guess I don't meet the cutoff.....
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:07 pm

EASA is now said to come with an important announcement this evening, probably a late evening ban when most planes are on the ground in order to limit the operational chaos.

if EASA indeed acts, its serious stuff, and the FAA will have very few options but to react too.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:09 pm

milan320 wrote:
Wonder if AC will ground it? Probably not, we're too close to the US and don't like to piss off the US ;-).


Well other jurisdictions are doing it for them. AC have cancelled AC860 YHZ-LHR tonight.

I would imagine the next YYT-LHR AC823 will also not operate with a MAX.

I would not be surprised to see AC revert to last winter's YHZ-YYT-LHR on the 763 for the next little while.
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1718
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:09 pm

IWMBH wrote:
You miss The Netherlands in your list https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenl ... -omdraaien

Edited, news development is as fast as lightning....lol
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
akb88
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:44 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:10 pm

Icelandair flew a MAX8 into Gatwick this morning, I wonder if they got out before the ban.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:10 pm

I'm surprised at the leadership that Australia, Singapore and the UK have shown in this crisis by taking the drastic measure of grounding.

We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.

It's time for Boeing to go silent. Repetitively pushing that their aircraft is safe is going to fall on deaf ears at this point.
With groundings forced by national authorities, they could become liable for damages anyway.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
c933103
Posts: 3812
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:11 pm

I have read internet rumors claiming that reason behind CAAC's rapid action was that they were already going to issue the ban after reports of certain Chinese airlines encountered similar situation twice before, although in both cases they were able to control the plane at the end but that's still close calls.It's just that the accident come out when they were preparing relevant documents and thus they immediately announced the ban.

What's the credibility of such rumor?
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:11 pm

akb88 wrote:
Icelandair flew a MAX8 into Gatwick this morning, I wonder if they got out before the ban.


They did, all 3 of their MAX's arrived back to KEF around 1 hour ago, all back to base to be grounded.
Last edited by FCAFLYBOY on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:13 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:11 pm

could be worse from a business perspective, could have happened in high summer or just before Easter Weekend which is late this year.
Seems that Boeing are taking a leaf out of the Intel book where last year issues which run to the very core of their chip technology were dismissed as a feature and working as designed. Intel got away with it. Boeing probably feel this strategy will work for them too.

Of course RIP to those who lost their lives.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1702
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:12 pm

Faro wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro

Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet. I think there are enough similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian - brand new MAX 8s falling out of the sky with suspected flight control problems to warrant an immediate precautionary measure while the root cause is investigated (regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia, China are agreeing). Let's not forget the 300+ lives lost...even 1 life lost is 1 too many. We are talking about mass casualty events here (with potential for loss of lives on the ground as well). When people don't see logic they automatically turn to "media furor" or "media bias".

In some incidents (like this) you will have to react and can't wait for conclusive evidence that either links OR does not link the 2 incidents and trace it back to a problem with aircraft and/or training + human error since the risks are too high.



I quite understand the rationale behind a precautionary grounding yes...but we are lacking so much information at this stage that the link between JT and ET is extremely tenuous for the moment...not to talk of walking back the damage to the MAX brand if ET should prove to have no MCAS link...I think there’s a fair chance it could be terminal...


Faro

Agreed. But, i would like to humbly point out that the damage to the MAX brand is least of the worries right now. MAX brand will eventually be fine.
 
Jetty
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:13 pm

juliuswong wrote:
1 Unknown Corendon Airlines

This plane will be grounded due to bans in The Netherlands and Turkey.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3766
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:15 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
PW100 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Have you read the multiple posts that stated that MCAS only functions when Flaps are up, which is unlikely at 1000’ above the deck. That’s thrust reduction altitude for many airlines.


And haven't you read the multiple replies on the 1000 ft claim???

A) The FR24 data cuts out well before the crash. Therefore we have no indication on the height reached during the short flight. Yet folks keep on hammering on the 1000 ft.
B) The same FR24 data suggests the aircraft reached close to 400 kts air speed. Wouldn't you agree that flaps should be up at that sort of air speeds? One would expect that airspeed is much more important factor in flap position than (pressure) altitude . . .


Correct. I was specifically replying to the poster’s comment. Sounds like you didn’t get that.


OK. But still I don't get it: subject poster was not making any claims whether flaps were retracted or not, so why would you bring it up in your post then?
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
Draken21fx
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:38 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:15 pm

Just a quick question. We know that the recorders have been found. If the memory units in them have not been damaged is it possible for the Ethiopian authorities to have access to the data already or have they been shipped to the US? Could the ban be related to the initial information they downloaded?
 
IWMBH
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:16 pm

I was sceptical this morning that this grounding would happen. This is a (PR) disaster for Boeing, I hope they find a solution at a short notice.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1755
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:16 pm

LightChop2Chop wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
I have an American MAX 8 flight next week, so I hope it doesn't get grounded.


How do you know you are on a max and not just a regular 737-8? I'm on an AA 737-800 flight next Monday, but cannot tell if it is a max or not...


IF you are flying AA and your itinerary says 737-800 then you are on an 800. if it says 78M then you are on a max


Thank you. Yes this has been explained to me by a couple of posters also. Much appreciated. And I'm on a 737-800
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:16 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6314
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:18 pm

PW100 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
PW100 wrote:

And haven't you read the multiple replies on the 1000 ft claim???

A) The FR24 data cuts out well before the crash. Therefore we have no indication on the height reached during the short flight. Yet folks keep on hammering on the 1000 ft.
B) The same FR24 data suggests the aircraft reached close to 400 kts air speed. Wouldn't you agree that flaps should be up at that sort of air speeds? One would expect that airspeed is much more important factor in flap position than (pressure) altitude . . .


Correct. I was specifically replying to the poster’s comment. Sounds like you didn’t get that.


OK. But still I don't get it: subject poster was not making any claims whether flaps were retracted or not, so why would you bring it up in your post then?


Oh brother. Because he made a reference that implied MCAS could be a problem at only 1000 feet deck height. I stated that was unlikely. It really wasn’t a big deal.
 
bob75013
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:18 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I was sceptical this morning that this grounding would happen. This is a (PR) disaster for Boeing, I hope they find a solution at a short notice.


Perhaps you should tell everyone exactly what, if anything, needs to be fixed.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:19 pm

ytz wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
So according to your “expertise” the 737max is so flawed that is should be discontinued and Boeing should exit the 150’seat market. All this based on 2 accidents of which we don’t know the cause or the solution. And yes Boeing wouldn’t be forced out of the 150-200 seat market for the foreseeable future. So I want to know what your background is to make such a demand.



Didn't you know that everyone here has a PhD in aeronautical engineering with 25+ years work experience?


Nobody gets a say on flight safety apparently unless they have a PhD in Aero Eng and 25+ years experience?

I have two masters (aero and astro) from an American service academy and two decades in the air force with several tours as an engineering officer. Guess I don't meet the cutoff.....

While your background is impressive and I’m sure Airbus or Boeing would hire you, you probably wouldn’t on day one be the guy who convinces everyone to scrap the 737 for a replacement program.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6314
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:20 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I was sceptical this morning that this grounding would happen. This is a (PR) disaster for Boeing, I hope they find a solution at a short notice.


Solution is developed for Lion Air.

Kind of hard to find a solution for Ethiopian yet since no-one know what caused the accident yet.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2386
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:20 pm

Going to be hard for the FAA and the US airlines to keep flying these birds.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5696
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:20 pm

leghorn wrote:
Norwegian's various brands/AOCs have about 18 737Max planes according to airfleets.net. They seem to be grounded by this. Boeing better do something or that airline will collapse.



Don't be silly. Norwegian has plenty of Boeing 737-800NG's. They will just have to cancel some flights and / or move passengers
 
D L X
Posts: 12472
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 pm

FRANCE24: US orders Boeing to make urgent improvements to 737 MAX after Ethiopia crash

https://www.france24.com/en/20190312-us ... lane-crash


Is this strong wording what actually happened?
 
zuckie13
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:22 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?
 
leyland1989
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:23 pm

following the ban of 737 MAX in the UK, unsurprisingly the next AC860 is cancelled.
Airbus:319,320,332,333,343,345,346,359,388
Boeing: 717,734,738,753,74R,742,743,744,74E,748,763,772,773,77E,77L,77W,788,789
Misc:AT5,CN1,CNJ,CR2,CR7,CR9,DH8,ER4,ERD,E70,E75,E90,M11,S20
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 8622
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:23 pm

Surprising how quickly the authorities reacted and in Europe (Germany) they must be certain that the action is commensurate, otherwise they can be sued.

Imho this is only possible if the Lion Air research discovered a problem and a grounding was so far avoided by Boeing showing numbers that the problematic flight condition is so extremely unlikely to happen again, that is poses no serious threat to the safety of the passengers until fixed. Another crash under similar circumstances would the be reason enough for the authorities to ground the plane.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6314
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:24 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


I disagree. WN and AA gave pilots who know how to follow their training an emergency procedures should it become necessary. That said, it hasn’t been necessary for those airlines.

What is a bad safety culture and putting money first is dispatching an airplane with a know AOA vane problem.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:24 pm

bob75013 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I was sceptical this morning that this grounding would happen. This is a (PR) disaster for Boeing, I hope they find a solution at a short notice.


Perhaps you should tell everyone exactly what, if anything, needs to be fixed.


Who’s talking about a fix? Half the earth thinks the plane is a deathtrap due to all the news coverage. Boeing needs a solution to get people’s faith back.
 
joeljack
Posts: 611
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:25 pm

Sorry if this was posted but I didn't see it, Southwest zero'd out their Hawaii flights for the first week. Must be anticipating grounding the 737 Max 8's and they have no other airplane to fly to Hawaii.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:25 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


To be fair, all that was posted in regards to that is hear'say - I don't see any link to anything official, and that is also not what Zuckie was saying.

I also agree, and I'm surprised to hear that the WN Pilot's Union has unilaterally agreed how marvelous and safe the MAX is... it's going to be a long day, and I dare say at least 1 NA-based carrier will ground before the day is out. Hopefully all of them.
 
ELBOB
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:56 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:26 pm

seahawk wrote:
Surprising how quickly the authorities reacted and in Europe (Germany) they must be certain that the action is commensurate, otherwise they can be sued.


No, they can't be sued. They are the arbiters of their airspace and can make arbitrary decisions without liability.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 608
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:26 pm

bob75013 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I was sceptical this morning that this grounding would happen. This is a (PR) disaster for Boeing, I hope they find a solution at a short notice.


Perhaps you should tell everyone exactly what, if anything, needs to be fixed.


We could start with their PR department. "Making an already safe aircraft safer".
 
bob75013
Posts: 867
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:27 pm

joeljack wrote:
Sorry if this was posted but I didn't see it, Southwest zero'd out their Hawaii flights for the first week. Must be anticipating grounding the 737 Max 8's and they have no other airplane to fly to Hawaii.



Since Southwest is flying 738s to Hawaii, what does that have to do with anything?
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2299
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:29 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


... or are confident in their ability to work through it.

If its one thing many pilots don't lack, its confidence. Whether that is misplaced or not is a different matter!
 
uta999
Posts: 728
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:10 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:29 pm

And on a lighter note from Sky News:

https://news.sky.com/story/live-ethiopi ... t-11663146
Your computer just got better
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4103
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:29 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Retired, not canceled, not withdrawn, not revoked, but retired! As in no new 737 model allowed. It was long overdue even before the two recent crashes. What does a MAX have in common with a 737-100? They do not belong on the same type certificate.

So according to your “expertise” the 737max is so flawed that is should be discontinued and Boeing should exit the 150’seat market. All this based on 2 accidents of which we don’t know the cause or the solution. And yes Boeing wouldn’t be forced out of the 150-200 seat market for the foreseeable future. So I want to know what your background is to make such a demand.



Didn't you know that everyone here has a PhD in aeronautical engineering with 25+ years work experience?

I'd settle for the ability to read and think before hitting that shiny blue Submit button, although I doubt 25 years' experience in these fields may be enough for some still.... Where exactly did I advocate discontinuing existing models?
The Trump/Johnson special relationship: Special people on both sides of the Atlantic
 
Aither
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:31 pm

Boeing keeps digging. The statement is just telling us they're not going to pay for the commercial losses as according to them there is no reason to ground the aircraft. Take that Boeing customers. I understand their point, but sometimes, little empathy is important to prepare future relations.

This is going to be in text books in the marketing schools. Should they have communicated differently instead of just saying 'yeah, we're aware, it's just because these losy airlines don't train pilots like astronauts that they crash the max, please wait for the April software update"... things would have been far different.
Last edited by Aither on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never trust the obvious
 
bralo20
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 9:05 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:31 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:

Interestingly enough, TUI Netherlands' TFN and TFO are currently enroute from HRG/BJL to AMS. I wonder where they'll end up

Martijn


Maybe in Brussels at TUI's maintenance base? Seems that Belgium is keeping it airspace open for the MAX for now, probably because there are also 2 MAX planes from TUI Belgium on their way to Brussels?
 
vfw614
Posts: 3788
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:32 pm

sabenapilot wrote:
EASA is now said to come with an important announcement this evening, probably a late evening ban when most planes are on the ground in order to limit the operational chaos.

if EASA indeed acts, its serious stuff, and the FAA will have very few options but to react too.


Will not have much impact as MAX operations in Europe have already come to an almost standstill. From what I gather, once the still airborne TUI, Norwegian and THY aircraft have landed, the only European operator left will be Smartwings (currently has 4 MAXs in the air). I cannot see any flights by LOT and Air Italy that have not actively grounded their MAXs yet. flydubai may feel some impact as they serve a handful of destinations in Eastern Europe with MAXs, but I guess these can be substituted with NGs.
Last edited by vfw614 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:33 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


I'm of the opinion that -- based on their reaction to the facts at hand -- they clearly care less about safety than the national regulators across Europe who have grounded the plane, and the airlines in Europe and elsewhere that have voluntarily stopped flying the plane.

Two things could make me re-evaluate this position: (1) WN acts in the next couple of hours (I recognize it's still morning in North America), or (2) WN, Boeing, or others disclose data that we don't know about the ET crash that eliminates MCAS issues as the cause. I don't see how they could arrive at that conclusion so quickly, however.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why you privilege the opinion of the Southwest pilots "actually flying the planes" over European airlines who are also "actually flying the planes"? Is an American opinion inherently more valuable than a non-American one? (Asked as a US citizen, BTW.)
 
Jetty
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:35 pm

The USA might be heading towards grounding all advanced aircraft if the POTUS is to be believed:

Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly. Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT. I see it all the time in many products. Always seeking to go one unnecessary step further, when often old and simpler is far better. Split second decisions are.... ....needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... t-11663146

Could he be referring to MCAS with the 'unnecessary step further'?
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2668
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:35 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
zuckie13 wrote:
So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


I'm of the opinion that -- based on their reaction to the facts at hand -- they clearly care less about safety than the national regulators across Europe who have grounded the plane, and the airlines in Europe and elsewhere that have voluntarily stopped flying the plane.

Two things could make me re-evaluate this position: (1) WN acts in the next couple of hours (I recognize it's still morning in North America), or (2) WN, Boeing, or others disclose data that we don't know about the ET crash that eliminates MCAS issues as the cause. I don't see how they could arrive at that conclusion so quickly, however.

Perhaps you'd care to explain why you privilege the opinion of the Southwest pilots "actually flying the planes" over European airlines who are also "actually flying the planes"? Is an American opinion inherently more valuable than a non-American one? (Asked as a US citizen, BTW.)


Or perhaps WN, other NA operators and the FAA believe that the existing AD covers MCAS issues and if that procedure is followed there is no issue?
 
GRJGeorge
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:36 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
Short of grounding, the UK ban is now affecting AC and WS MAX flights from Canada to LHR, so it's beginning to affect our airlines regardless of Canada's failure to ground the MAX.

Strange indeed, especially even since AC had the most reported technical incidents on MAX recorded over the last 3 months alone.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:37 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
We should take note of how these groundings are unfolding. It clearly reveals which entities/airlines have a safety first culture and which ones put money first.


Yuppers. Really disappointed in WN at the moment.


So you are of the opinion that the professionals who are actually flying these planes (the Southwest Pilots have said we have confidence in the planes) don't care about safety?


Pilots are people like you and me. While they/we have a basic technical understanding of the aircraft, if an IDG and an A/C pack would be put on the workbench, they wouldn't be able to explain how they work nor tell what they are and not even whcih one is which.
I've been through commercial flight training and have worked in maintenance so I know a thong or two about that.
To become a pilot takes a healthy amount of "it won't happen to me, I'm willing to take a risk. "

In daily operations, I've seen pilots rejecting an aircraft for a technical issue, only to be replaced by a pair of pilots who were willing to take the aircraft.

Safety is a consideration for pilots, but the line between safety and commercial pressure is blurred in the murky waters of an industry where safety and finances are balanced at almost every operational decision that has to be made.
 
User avatar
MrBren
Posts: 252
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:44 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:38 pm

According to LeFigaro.fr, #GroundBoeing737max8 has been initiated on Twitter by some frightened US passengers.
 
User avatar
tistpaa727
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 5:23 am

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:39 pm

uta999 wrote:
And on a lighter note from Sky News:

https://news.sky.com/story/live-ethiopi ... t-11663146


That's one large 737! :shock:
Don't sweat the little things.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos