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Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:40 pm
by SurlyBonds
PixelPilot wrote:

Or MAYBE with their MAX experience they simply believe the bird is safe to fly?


WN is not the only airline with 737-MAXes. The FAA is not the only national regulator with experience with 737-MAXes.

Airlines outside of North America, and quite a few national regulators, have grounded the fleet.

What privileges the view of WN and the FAA above their counterparts elsewhere? Texan heritage?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:40 pm
by vfw614
FR24 shows some Oman Air MAXs airborne , weren't they one of the first to ground? E.g. DEL-MCT, MCT-DME

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:40 pm
by Mortyman
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:40 pm
by vfw614
Just wondering - if an airline grounds without being forced to by the authorities, does it make a difference regaring EC261/04 compensation owed as a result of cancelled flights (no force majeure in that case)?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:42 pm
by KlimaBXsst
Should airline regulators consider grounding the MAX.

I think another good question would be are there any airlines that might be grounded into insolvency by the MAX groundings of airline regulators.

Joining the grounding chorus might not be in the best interest of your favorite financially unfit airline. Which airlines are these I wonder.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:43 pm
by bob75013
SurlyBonds wrote:
PixelPilot wrote:

Or MAYBE with their MAX experience they simply believe the bird is safe to fly?


WN is not the only airline with 737-MAXes. The FAA is not the only national regulator with experience with 737-MAXes.

Airlines outside of North America, and quite a few national regulators, have grounded the fleet.

What privileges the view of WN and the FAA above their counterparts elsewhere? Texan heritage?



How about actual data from over 41,000 WN MAX flights - more than any other airline in the world?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:43 pm
by EvanWSFO
Given the UK and many nations are grounding the MAX, I think it's just a matter of time before the FAA follows suit. Personally, I would board one right now, but I think the tipping point is near to put them all on the ground pending investigation.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:44 pm
by EvanWSFO
Duplicate post

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:44 pm
by eternity000
Air Canada's 737 to FDF (Martinique) AC954 landed on schedule and AC955 is flying out later today. Does the French ruling apply to it's Caribean regions too?

I know AC has cancelled it's 737Max flights to London today.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:47 pm
by 777Mech
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Should airline regulators consider grounding the MAX.

I think another good question would be are there any airlines that might be grounded into insolvency by the MAX groundings of airline regulators.

Joining the grounding chorus might not be in the best interest of your favorite financially unfit airline. Which airlines are these I wonder.


If a financially unfit airline is buying new maxes, then that's their own problem.

I personally don't care if it causes a hardship on any airline, I care about the safety of the general public.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:47 pm
by keesje
CrimsonNL wrote:
Jetty wrote:
The Netherlands closed it's airspace for the 737MAX as well: https://www.trouw.nl/home/ook-nederland ... ~aa670d62/ (Dutch).


Interestingly enough, TUI Netherlands' TFN and TFO are currently enroute from HRG/BJL to AMS. I wonder where they'll end up

Martijn


Netherlands authorities are fully aligned with EASA. This seems a kind of pre-warning to FAA, giving them some time.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:49 pm
by gpa526
LOT polish airlines has just announced grounding of their 5 MAX planes.
(https://www.pasazer.com/news/40890/lot, ... 7,max.html)

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:49 pm
by robbo2k
Poland close airspace for MAX. LOT cancelled flight with MAX.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:49 pm
by ytz
Faro wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Faro wrote:
I think this highlights in a ridiculously manifest way a new risk for civil air transport...media risk, including social media risk

When after AA191 the DC-10 was grounded it was because it was abundantly clear what had caused the accident and the potential flaw in the design. We are nowhere there at the moment with the ET crash...and yet...the media furor is forcing airlines to cave in and prematurely ground the MAX before anything concrete has been arrived at by the authorities...

This has really gotten out of hand.


Faro

Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet. I think there are enough similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian - brand new MAX 8s falling out of the sky with suspected flight control problems to warrant an immediate precautionary measure while the root cause is investigated (regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia, China are agreeing). Let's not forget the 300+ lives lost...even 1 life lost is 1 too many. We are talking about mass casualty events here (with potential for loss of lives on the ground as well). When people don't see logic they automatically turn to "media furor" or "media bias".

In some incidents (like this) you will have to react and can't wait for conclusive evidence that either links OR does not link the 2 incidents and trace it back to a problem with aircraft and/or training + human error since the risks are too high.



I quite understand the rationale behind a precautionary grounding yes...but we are lacking so much information at this stage that the link between JT and ET is extremely tenuous for the moment...not to talk of walking back the damage to the MAX brand if ET should prove to have no MCAS link...I think there’s a fair chance it could be terminal...


Faro


Tenuous? Same type. VMC. Similar problems reported. That's not tenuous.

As for concern to Boeing's brand, any regulator who puts that above their duty to the public deserves to join the unemployment line.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:50 pm
by PW100
BoeingGuy wrote:
PW100 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

Correct. I was specifically replying to the poster’s comment. Sounds like you didn’t get that.


OK. But still I don't get it: subject poster was not making any claims whether flaps were retracted or not, so why would you bring it up in your post then?


Oh brother. Because he made a reference that implied MCAS could be a problem at only 1000 feet deck height. I stated that was unlikely. It really wasn’t a big deal.


Well, based on my initial message (which you OK'ed) it still could be a problem, despite the "at only 1000 ft deck height" claim.
Let's leave it here, as it's not a big deal . . .

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:50 pm
by SurlyBonds
bob75013 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

What privileges the view of WN and the FAA above their counterparts elsewhere? Texan heritage?


How about actual data from over 41,000 WN MAX flights - more than any other airline in the world?


So how's about sharing some of that data, instead of cheerleading ("making an already safe plane even safer")?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:51 pm
by na
Mortyman wrote:
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Grounding ok, but at least they should have let planes in the air finish their flight. What difference does 2 or 3 hours later make?
Politics...

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:53 pm
by keesje
GRJGeorge wrote:
ACCS300 wrote:
Short of grounding, the UK ban is now affecting AC and WS MAX flights from Canada to LHR, so it's beginning to affect our airlines regardless of Canada's failure to ground the MAX.

Strange indeed, especially even since AC had the most reported technical incidents on MAX recorded over the last 3 months alone.


They found a solution, to come back on the earlier "keep flying" announcement they need to select "new information". Probably in the coming hours.

na wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Grounding ok, but at least they should have let planes in the air finish their flight. What difference does 2 or 3 hours later make?
Politics...


You need your aircraft at the home base for e.g. mods. Not far away, grounded, trying to ferry them back.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:53 pm
by JamesCousins
na wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Grounding ok, but at least they should have let planes in the air finish their flight. What difference does 2 or 3 hours later make?
Politics...


Likely taking them to places where they can perform any maintence or store the frames easily/affordably. Not ideal to have A/C stranded all across Europe. Not saying it's right on the passengers, but that's the reasoning...

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:53 pm
by FCAFLYBOY
na wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Grounding ok, but at least they should have let planes in the air finish their flight. What difference does 2 or 3 hours later make?
Politics...


Not really politics, IMO, but protocol and procedure. You can't issue a blanket ban, and then say, "Oh, ok, we'll let you pop in and turnaround and head back home".

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 pm
by bob75013
SurlyBonds wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
SurlyBonds wrote:

What privileges the view of WN and the FAA above their counterparts elsewhere? Texan heritage?


How about actual data from over 41,000 WN MAX flights - more than any other airline in the world?


So how's about sharing some of that data, instead of cheerleading ("making an already safe plane even safer")?


I'm sure they have shared amongst themselves and the FAA. Maybe that's why neither have grounded the plane.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 pm
by MKIAZ
747megatop wrote:
Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet.


Yea but WN actually experienced a meaningful decline in sales that affected their financial results due to people avoiding the airline out of fear.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 pm
by ytz
Bobloblaw wrote:
ytz wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


Didn't you know that everyone here has a PhD in aeronautical engineering with 25+ years work experience?


Nobody gets a say on flight safety apparently unless they have a PhD in Aero Eng and 25+ years experience?

I have two masters (aero and astro) from an American service academy and two decades in the air force with several tours as an engineering officer. Guess I don't meet the cutoff.....

While your background is impressive and I’m sure Airbus or Boeing would hire you, you probably wouldn’t on day one be the guy who convinces everyone to scrap the 737 for a replacement program.


I've not said scrap the program. But there's lots of folks here who seem to think calls like mine for a precautionary grounding aren't warranted. I've seen a base commander ground a fleet of 30 aircraft to find a single oil rag. That's a safety culture. Given the contextual similarities, I can't understand those who'd argue a temporary grounding isn't warranted. And you shouldn't need decades of experience and graduate degrees in engineering to make that call.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:56 pm
by chimborazo
na wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Several of Norwegian's Boeing 737 Max 8 has had to turn in mid air over Europe ...

Grounding ok, but at least they should have let planes in the air finish their flight. What difference does 2 or 3 hours later make?
Politics...


Just move everyone out of their way and clear them to land on a 20 mile final with no one ahead, into wind, so there is the smallest chance that they hve to do a go-around.

Sarcasm but valid about the go around.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:56 pm
by Lewton
To be honest, making the planes go back halfway through is too much.
Just let them finish the current flight and at maximum one more to get back to their base if they were in an outbound flight.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:57 pm
by robbo2k
In 1hour all Europe airspace is close for MAX say ULC from Poland

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:05 pm
by EvanWSFO
Given that the UK, Germany and other European nations have banned the MAX, I think the FAA will follow suit. I have no qualms about getting on one, but it seems inevitable.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:08 pm
by TheRacingElf
According to Dutch RTL Nieuws the decision to ban the MAX from Dutch airspace is based on new advice from EASA.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:10 pm
by bralo20
Belgium airspace is also closed for 737MAX planes.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:11 pm
by vfw614
So the only larger European country that has yet to ban the MAX8 is apparently Spain. Except for Scandinavia and South-East Europe, that's it for the time being for the MAX8.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:11 pm
by JetBuddy
I think the best thing to do for FAA and North American operators are to ground the type as well.

One more incident with this type, no matter how small or unrelated it is - would be the nail in the coffin for the 737 MAX as a program.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:12 pm
by konrad
Poland's airspace is also closed for 737MAX planes.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:17 pm
by Aither
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:18 pm
by flee
With most parts of the world closed to the Max, should there be a third Max crash, it will almost certainly be in the US.

No wonder the US politicians are getting a bit nervous!

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 pm
by IWMBH
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:21 pm
by bralo20
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


It could be very well that there is information out there, only known to officials, that triggered this. The first big authority that issued a ban was the British CAA and nobody was truly asking for it (except maybe here).

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:21 pm
by BoeingGuy
PW100 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
PW100 wrote:

OK. But still I don't get it: subject poster was not making any claims whether flaps were retracted or not, so why would you bring it up in your post then?


Oh brother. Because he made a reference that implied MCAS could be a problem at only 1000 feet deck height. I stated that was unlikely. It really wasn’t a big deal.


Well, based on my initial message (which you OK'ed) it still could be a problem, despite the "at only 1000 ft deck height" claim.
Let's leave it here, as it's not a big deal . . .


Right. This thread is getting old. Nothing we debate is going to amount to a hill of beans. I’ll be interested to learn what the experts determine caused the ET accident.

I think I’ll switch over to a more cheerful topic like the new service at PAE. I saw one of the AS E175s lining up on 16R for takeoff this morning.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:22 pm
by hongkongflyer
konrad wrote:
As a general comment, is this the first time when the Chinese aviation regulatory authority sets the trend for the rest of the world? Interesting times.


Reasons :
1)They have the most MAX except USA
2) High-level gov meetings are being held in Beijing.
The entire country is at full alert and the government at all levels don't want anything bad happens during the period
3) They care about the safety more then profits
4) Trade War and Huiwa bargaining power

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:24 pm
by akb88
I'm astounded that people are upset about them grounding the planes! This is about safety, there have been doubts casts on the safety of the aircraft and people are going out of their way to avoid them. Isn't modern aviation built around safety?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:24 pm
by SurlyBonds
bob75013 wrote:
I'm sure they have shared amongst themselves and the FAA. Maybe that's why neither have grounded the plane.


You'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it; regulatory capture is A Thing. And not to put a fine point on it, but China has quite a bit of experience with the MAX as well as WN; it was the first country to ground the plane.

Idiotic drivel about "making an already safe plane already safer" doesn't help. Plainly, something wasn't safe on Sunday. Yes, I agree that this response is going to be fodder for future business school case studies about how not to do damage control. In fact, I see it as virtually a textbook case of what NOT to do.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:25 pm
by jreuschl
Is there any data sharing that goes on with the black box information? Or is it just held in one country?

It seems we would want multiple authorities to look at the data from both crashes, since we really just have speculation at this point in both of these crashes.

Also, it seems the airspeed indicators are prone to failure/be erratic. That seems to be a more simple problem at start.

I do think WN, AA, AC, WS will have to stop flying them just for PR. They're the remaining airlines, right?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:25 pm
by akb88
Also something must have come out of some of the investigations if authorities in the UK for instance took inititive and banned them from their airspace.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:28 pm
by 747megatop
ytz wrote:
Faro wrote:
747megatop wrote:
Not really. After the Southwest incidents where there was a hole in the ceiling and the incident where an exploding engine killed a woman ...granted there was a lot of media coverage...but no one was calling for avoiding SW or grounding SW or grounding the 737 fleet. I think there are enough similarities between Lion Air and Ethiopian - brand new MAX 8s falling out of the sky with suspected flight control problems to warrant an immediate precautionary measure while the root cause is investigated (regulators in UK, Singapore, Australia, China are agreeing). Let's not forget the 300+ lives lost...even 1 life lost is 1 too many. We are talking about mass casualty events here (with potential for loss of lives on the ground as well). When people don't see logic they automatically turn to "media furor" or "media bias".

In some incidents (like this) you will have to react and can't wait for conclusive evidence that either links OR does not link the 2 incidents and trace it back to a problem with aircraft and/or training + human error since the risks are too high.



I quite understand the rationale behind a precautionary grounding yes...but we are lacking so much information at this stage that the link between JT and ET is extremely tenuous for the moment...not to talk of walking back the damage to the MAX brand if ET should prove to have no MCAS link...I think there’s a fair chance it could be terminal...


Faro


Tenuous? Same type. VMC. Similar problems reported. That's not tenuous.

As for concern to Boeing's brand, any regulator who puts that above their duty to the public deserves to join the unemployment line.


Agreed.

Frankly i am quite amazed at many of the posts i have seen on a.net over the past couple of days since the ET crash. After the back to back Lion Air and ET incidents; the theory should now be PROVE BEYOND a doubt that MAX is 100% safe to fly..till then that type is grounded [the regulators in UK, Australia, Singapore etc. are rightly following this approach).

But, quite a few on a.net (& perhaps Boeing and FAA) seem to be on the thought process of let's PROVE THAT IT IS UNSAFE to fly and till then we will let the type keep flying (we don't have the facts to link the 2..might be training issue..etc. etc.). Too much at stake IMHO and not the right approach. I think there is enough circumstancial evidence [2 brand new MAXs; flight control problems within mins of takeoff followed by a crash] with 300+ lives lost to say, let's take a step back, pause things...understand what is going on and prove+certify beyond a doubt that it is 100% safe to fly after necessary fixes (if any) are done.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:28 pm
by 1ffb2002
HaulSudson wrote:
1ffb2002 wrote:
This thread is getting ridiculous. Posting that officials are influenced by money over safety is completely unsupported by fact. FAA grounds on fact not hysteria. There are no facts showing that the MAX is dangerous. There indeed have been two serious crashes with large loss of life, but there are no facts yet from the second crash. Let's get some preliminary data prior to condemning government authorities, leaders, corporations, etc. If this is a configuration error on takeoff made by a very junior FO, this grounding and hysteria are moot.


And if not?


Can we wait for some facts and data?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:29 pm
by max999
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Let's have a serious discussion instead of using excuses to divert the conversation away from any fault in the design of the 737 MAX. In this thread, I've seen the following diversions being used: poor piloting, poor safety culture in '3rd world' (not my terminology) countries, bad maintenance practices, terrorism, cargo fire, millennials, and now the new one...social media. What's the next diversion? Act of God?

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:29 pm
by aden23
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.



People concerned with their own safety, imagine that.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:31 pm
by Aither
akb88 wrote:
I'm astounded that people are upset about them grounding the planes! This is about safety, there have been doubts casts on the safety of the aircraft and people are going out of their way to avoid them. Isn't modern aviation built around safety?


Maybe I'm naive here but we have no reason not to trust the FAA.
For me it's not about safety (only), it's about general public perception after the absolute sh*t communication of both Boeing & the FAA.
As I said yesterday, if one major airline grounds the aircraft, direct competitors will follow to protect their image...and so we will see a geographic contamination happening.

This is exactly what happened
It really started in China. For some good reasons they are totally risk adverse on this.
Then if we could draw a map, it "contaminated" Asian airlines, then Oceania and Middle East, then Europe and by the end of today it will be the Americas.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:32 pm
by Amiga500
max999 wrote:
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Let's have a serious discussion instead of using excuses to divert the conversation away from any fault in the design of the 737 MAX. In this thread, I've seen the following diversions being used: poor piloting, poor safety culture in '3rd world' (not my terminology) countries, bad maintenance practices, terrorism, cargo fire, millennials, and now the new one...social media. What's the next diversion? Act of God?


If only Boeing had not designed the altitude measurement system on the basis of this radical "round earth" theory that is running amok.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:33 pm
by MSPNWA
IWMBH wrote:
I think it’s also the first time that 2 brand new aircraft crash in such a short timeframe.


Depends on what it considered "short timeframe". Statistically the A320 had a rougher start. Two were lost before even 100 were in service. Three before 300. A fourth by around 400 in service. It's not just how quickly two crashes happen that determines relative safety.

Re: Should airline regulators consider grounding B737 MAX series

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:33 pm
by cschleic
Aither wrote:
I think it is the first time in the history of aviation that an airplane is being grounded by social media.


Lots of world events have been influenced or caused by social media lately and some could have more far ranging impact than the 737 MAX.