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marcelh
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
LH779 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
I guess you were right, they're no longer in the optional state... :stirthepot:

Was there some sort of press release by either Boeing or LH stating they firmed the last 14? If not there's no news. LH always had 34 779s in their fleet overview in the financial reports but only 20 in Boeing's order book.

The news is that the 779X options aren't gone, contrary to some suggestions in this thread.

Pedantically yours,
Rev.

With the demise of the A380, LH haa to do something. And the next best thing is the 779. I don’t see LH take the A350-1000, so this isn’t a weird move.
 
dodoma
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:40 pm

mxaxai wrote:
*note how this almost exactly matches the needs of OS and LX. If LH wants some 787 for themselves they'll have to order more.


Actually the 77Ws for LX are for growth, not fleet renewal.

Also, 20 787s are not even enough for the A340/767/777 replacement at LX, WK and OS, there are 21 frames total at this time. So either they reduce capacity or we will see some aircraft shuffling around.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:47 pm

dodoma wrote:
Actually the 77Ws for LX are for growth, not fleet renewal.

I assumed so much, but growth could simply mean a 1:1 replacement of the much smaller A340-300.

LX will be in a somewhat weird situation with either small (5 - 15 each) 787 and A330 fleets, or they'll have to divest of some relatively new A330s in exchange for 787-9. But in the latter case, they'd have to receive all 787-9 on order. We'll see either some major fleet shuffling or a follow-up order soon.
 
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Polot
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:48 pm

dodoma wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
*note how this almost exactly matches the needs of OS and LX. If LH wants some 787 for themselves they'll have to order more.


Actually the 77Ws for LX are for growth, not fleet renewal.

Also, 20 787s are not even enough for the A340/767/777 replacement at LX, WK and OS, there are 21 frames total at this time. So either they reduce capacity or we will see some aircraft shuffling around.

Or we see follow up orders. I doubt in the end the LH group will be operating just 20 787s. This is just the initial tranche, we will see more 787s and probably A350s ordered in the future.
 
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OA412
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:52 pm

Can we please have a mature discussion about this topic without resorting to calling each other fanboys or discussing other users? Thank you!
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
dodoma
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:53 pm

Polot wrote:
Or we see follow up orders. I doubt in the end the LH group will be operating just 20 787s. This is just the initial tranche, we will see more 787s and probably A350s ordered in the future.


Yes, this could very well happen. Interesting times ahead.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:05 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
dodoma wrote:
Polot wrote:
Or we see follow up orders. I doubt in the end the LH group will be operating just 20 787s. This is just the initial tranche, we will see more 787s and probably A350s ordered in the future.


Yes, this could very well happen. Interesting times ahead.

Or some 797s as A330 replacement on shorter routes, e. g. TATL, Central Africa or India. 787s only for real longhaul. Could help LX' longhaul routes from Geneva or SN's Africa routes: High yield, low volume.

But I agree that we'll see more orders from both manufacturers.
 
kimimm19
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:57 pm

seahawk wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
The thing is, LX have just recorded their largest profit ever and it's been attributed to larger planes (77Ws) and with ZRH becoming more and more restricted and congested, it indicates that unless LH is trying to subdue LX growth in favour of LH (wouldn't surprise me) then larger airplanes are the way to go >>> A350. Which can handle all of LX's longhaul routes, unlike the 787-10 which is the logical step up if they go with the 789....



LH is very clear in the regard, if you earn money you grow, if you do not you do not.


Is that why they're diminishing LX's presence at GVA in favour of Eurowings when they've now got the perfect aircraft.... (A220)
 
smartplane
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:09 pm

PixelPilot wrote:
columba wrote:
If you read the press release in full:
"With the Airbus A350-900, the Boeing 777-9 and the Boeing 787-9, Lufthansa Group will own the most fuel-efficient long-haul aircraft of their class in terms of kerosene consumption per passenger and 100 kilometers flown."
"In addition to this, Lufthansa Group will be significantly reducing the diversification and complexity of its fleet over the next few years and taking seven aircraft types out of service, which will reduce cost and complexity for maintenance and the supply of replacement parts, among other things." You get the impression that LH plans with a longhaul fleet consisting of only 787,A350 and 777 (7 types replaced A340-300, A340-600, 767-300, 777-200, 747-400 being the 5 most obvious leaves two more types for the future 747-8 and A380 maybe ??? or are smaller Jets like the Embraer included)


I have a feeling the 748 will stay there for a while and in fact might outlive the 380 in LH.
After that the 789/350/77x seems legit.

The 748 will live on at LH until Boeing announces the model is discontinued, triggering buybacks.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
The B787 will be in LH colors. A A339 will never be. Mark my words.


"All LCCs fly only 737s".
"American will never fly another Airbus".
"Delta will never order anything from Airbus".
"United will cancel all of its A350 orders".
"Emirates Boeing 787-10 order is FIRM!!!"

YAWN....
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:31 pm

smartplane wrote:
The 748 will live on at LH until Boeing announces the model is discontinued, triggering buybacks.


If we're honest, the 747-8 Intercontinental has been discontinued.
 
LXA340
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:49 pm

I really hope that we will see in 2025 5 A359 to go to LX to replace the remaining A343's and by around 2030 we will see the A333 fleet be replaced by A359's. Nevertheless LH group needs to decide in the next couple of years if the A333 fleet should remain longer at LX or be replaced earlier, since if the fleet really will stay until around 2030 they will need to invest into a new cabin product soon.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:04 pm

YellowJ wrote:
9Patch wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:

I'm afraid of the 787 in any colors! Boeing took away from me the only thing I love about flying, looking out the window and enjoying the beauty of the world from high altitude, their stupid dimming windows that allow the crew to force close them whenever they like is the worst. So disappointed to see the 787 joining the LH Group and hope they won't send it to my home airport.


I thought the passenger was still able to see out the window even when its dimmed?


They can still see indeed. In fact crew usually forces you to close traditional window shades on most TPAC/TATL flights, so he wouldn't have seen anything at all. The 787 still allows you to see outside while blocking most of the bothersome sunlight during cabin service. Not sure what he's rambling on about.


I'm rambling about the fact that the 787 enables the crew to dim your window even when there's absolutely no need to do so, for example on westbound flights that take off and land at daytime. The only reason I PAY to select my favorite window seat is to enjoy the view, also I'm not a fan of heavily tinted glass, I like to see the world in its natural colors. What you guys don't understand is that a dark cabin induces sleep, and more sleeping pax means less workload for the cabin crew, that's the real reason they always darken the cabin.
 
YellowJ
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:56 pm

L0VE2FLY wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
9Patch wrote:

I thought the passenger was still able to see out the window even when its dimmed?


They can still see indeed. In fact crew usually forces you to close traditional window shades on most TPAC/TATL flights, so he wouldn't have seen anything at all. The 787 still allows you to see outside while blocking most of the bothersome sunlight during cabin service. Not sure what he's rambling on about.


I'm rambling about the fact that the 787 enables the crew to dim your window even when there's absolutely no need to do so, for example on westbound flights that take off and land at daytime. The only reason I PAY to select my favorite window seat is to enjoy the view, also I'm not a fan of heavily tinted glass, I like to see the world in its natural colors. What you guys don't understand is that a dark cabin induces sleep, and more sleeping pax means less workload for the cabin crew, that's the real reason they always darken the cabin.


You still can see out the window, tinted or not. You will be ordered to put the shade down on any other widebody flight TATL or TPAC. Your whole argument is kind of moot, when you wouldn't be able to see the view anyway when the sun glare gets too bright and the cabin crew demands all shades down.
 
LSZH34
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:58 pm

LXA340 wrote:
I really hope that we will see in 2025 5 A359 to go to LX to replace the remaining A343's and by around 2030 we will see the A333 fleet be replaced by A359's. Nevertheless LH group needs to decide in the next couple of years if the A333 fleet should remain longer at LX or be replaced earlier, since if the fleet really will stay until around 2030 they will need to invest into a new cabin product soon.


With todays introduction of the premium Y on the B77W, it is likely that a similar product will be offered on the A330s later on (2022-2024). The A359 would be a great fit to LX as a replacement of the A340 (2025) and later the A330 (2030) offering growth.
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:09 pm

YellowJ wrote:
L0VE2FLY wrote:
YellowJ wrote:

They can still see indeed. In fact crew usually forces you to close traditional window shades on most TPAC/TATL flights, so he wouldn't have seen anything at all. The 787 still allows you to see outside while blocking most of the bothersome sunlight during cabin service. Not sure what he's rambling on about.


I'm rambling about the fact that the 787 enables the crew to dim your window even when there's absolutely no need to do so, for example on westbound flights that take off and land at daytime. The only reason I PAY to select my favorite window seat is to enjoy the view, also I'm not a fan of heavily tinted glass, I like to see the world in its natural colors. What you guys don't understand is that a dark cabin induces sleep, and more sleeping pax means less workload for the cabin crew, that's the real reason they always darken the cabin.


You still can see out the window, tinted or not. You will be ordered to put the shade down on any other widebody flight TATL or TPAC. Your whole argument is kind of moot, when you wouldn't be able to see the view anyway when the sun glare gets too bright and the cabin crew demands all shades down.


I don't always shut my window when ordered, only when necessary, no sane person would leave their window open when the glare is too intense. Fortunately for you the world is full of nervous flyers and people who don't appreciate the miracle of flying and are okay with giving up control of their windows to the crew.
 
ewt340
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:11 pm

So for now, Swiss, Austrian, and in the future possibly Brussels Airlines would have all-Boeing widebody jet for their operations with B787.
 
Blerg
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Any idea what routes might lose the A380 once these are sold back to Airbus? I think the 787 will fit really well at Austrian Airlines, they are in desperate need of replacing those B767.
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:35 am

ewt340 wrote:
So for now, Swiss, Austrian, and in the future possibly Brussels Airlines would have all-Boeing widebody jet for their operations with B787.


Or not. There are still plenty rather fresh A330CEOs in the group fleet. And the replacement of those will see another tender and if we talk about SN/EW the A330NEO might be considered again.
 
LHPII
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:49 am

marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
LH779 wrote:
Was there some sort of press release by either Boeing or LH stating they firmed the last 14? If not there's no news. LH always had 34 779s in their fleet overview in the financial reports but only 20 in Boeing's order book.

The news is that the 779X options aren't gone, contrary to some suggestions in this thread.

Pedantically yours,
Rev.

With the demise of the A380, LH haa to do something. And the next best thing is the 779. I don’t see LH take the A350-1000, so this isn’t a weird move.

I think you are completely wrong here. LH will most ceretainly take A351 as it is perfect match to replace A346s with First class in MUC without adding to fleet complexity. LH needs to have a capacity between A359 and A388, otherwise the gap is way too large. B779x means introducing completely new subfleet to MUC which is Airbus only base.
 
xorrygva
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:14 am

kimimm19 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
The thing is, LX have just recorded their largest profit ever and it's been attributed to larger planes (77Ws) and with ZRH becoming more and more restricted and congested, it indicates that unless LH is trying to subdue LX growth in favour of LH (wouldn't surprise me) then larger airplanes are the way to go >>> A350. Which can handle all of LX's longhaul routes, unlike the 787-10 which is the logical step up if they go with the 789....



LH is very clear in the regard, if you earn money you grow, if you do not you do not.


Is that why they're diminishing LX's presence at GVA in favour of Eurowings when they've now got the perfect aircraft.... (A220)


LX is not diminishing its presence at GVA. Actually, 3 new planes (A221 and A223) will be based in GVA from this Summer. The Eurowings plans have been dropped now.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:14 am

LHPII wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The news is that the 779X options aren't gone, contrary to some suggestions in this thread.

Pedantically yours,
Rev.

With the demise of the A380, LH haa to do something. And the next best thing is the 779. I don’t see LH take the A350-1000, so this isn’t a weird move.

I think you are completely wrong here. LH will most ceretainly take A351 as it is perfect match to replace A346s with First class in MUC without adding to fleet complexity. LH needs to have a capacity between A359 and A388, otherwise the gap is way too large. B779x means introducing completely new subfleet to MUC which is Airbus only base.

From LH's comments it looks like all their A346 will be replaced by A359. So I don't think they feel first class is required on those routes anymore.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
LH779
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 am

frigatebird wrote:
LHPII wrote:
marcelh wrote:
With the demise of the A380, LH haa to do something. And the next best thing is the 779. I don’t see LH take the A350-1000, so this isn’t a weird move.

I think you are completely wrong here. LH will most ceretainly take A351 as it is perfect match to replace A346s with First class in MUC without adding to fleet complexity. LH needs to have a capacity between A359 and A388, otherwise the gap is way too large. B779x means introducing completely new subfleet to MUC which is Airbus only base.

From LH's comments it looks like all their A346 will be replaced by A359. So I don't think they feel first class is required on those routes anymore.


They also stated they want to keep F on about 50% of their longhaul fleet. Currently thats all A388s, 748s and A346s. Maybe we will see an A359 configured with first class if they want to keep it that way (or some 779s).
 
michi
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:15 am

frigatebird wrote:
From LH's comments it looks like all their A346 will be replaced by A359. So I don't think they feel first class is required on those routes anymore.


Replacing A346 with A359 does not mean they will be used on the same routes. They might rotate aircraft as well.

It is way to simple to say that A359 will replace A346 one by one. Other factors come into play, like maintenance, route structure, which hub is affected, first class or not. LH might choose to replace some A346 with A359. But why not exchange some B744 or A343 with A359 as well? LH also changes aircraft type on routes depending on season.
 
Sokes
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:31 am

hitower3 wrote:
The 748 is great for carrying lower deck cargo in addition to pax, the A388 not so much.


Lufthansa ordered it's A380 in 2001. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... deliveries )
B777-300ER first commercial flight 2004.
EU-US open sky signed 2007, effective 2008.

What are long distance flights for Lufthansa?
Buenos Aires takes 14 hours. Singapore, Hong Kong, LA, San Francisco, Cape Town, Sao Paulo take around 12 hours.
Anything else>12 hours or only these 7 destinations?
Germany manufactures a lot of high value stuff.
Is it surprising that Lufthansa wants planes which can carry cargo when seats can't be sold? Or is it surprising that they ordered the A380 at all?
Germany manufactures part of the A380. The German government may have not liked if the flag carrier had to dump the A380 earlier.

That Lufthansa keeps some and sells some of it's A380s neither suggests that the A380 is a good plane, nor that it is a bad plane.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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frigatebird
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:51 am

LH779 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
LHPII wrote:

I think you are completely wrong here. LH will most ceretainly take A351 as it is perfect match to replace A346s with First class in MUC without adding to fleet complexity. LH needs to have a capacity between A359 and A388, otherwise the gap is way too large. B779x means introducing completely new subfleet to MUC which is Airbus only base.

From LH's comments it looks like all their A346 will be replaced by A359. So I don't think they feel first class is required on those routes anymore.


They also stated they want to keep F on about 50% of their longhaul fleet. Currently thats all A388s, 748s and A346s. Maybe we will see an A359 configured with first class if they want to keep it that way (or some 779s).

Good point. So, if I count correctly, LH plan to retire 16x A346 with first, and 6x A388 with first, 22 planes in total. I believe at least part of their 777-9s will end up with first. They have 20 on firm order, so that could be enough to maintain 50%. But a variant of the A359 with first is indeed very well possible (and even likely, thinking about it right now). LH's A333 have 3 variants as well, both with and without first.
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musman9853
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:57 am

LH779 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
LHPII wrote:

I think you are completely wrong here. LH will most ceretainly take A351 as it is perfect match to replace A346s with First class in MUC without adding to fleet complexity. LH needs to have a capacity between A359 and A388, otherwise the gap is way too large. B779x means introducing completely new subfleet to MUC which is Airbus only base.

From LH's comments it looks like all their A346 will be replaced by A359. So I don't think they feel first class is required on those routes anymore.


They also stated they want to keep F on about 50% of their longhaul fleet. Currently thats all A388s, 748s and A346s. Maybe we will see an A359 configured with first class if they want to keep it that way (or some 779s).


Makes more sense on the 777x than the a350 given the larger floor space
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Polot
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:06 pm

I don’t think a potential 777 sub fleet in MUC is frankly all that big of a deal, despite everything else operated there being an Airbus. It’s not like we are talking about acquring a new unique (to LH) type for MUC.
 
LxBsl
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:41 pm

seahawk wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
So for now, Swiss, Austrian, and in the future possibly Brussels Airlines would have all-Boeing widebody jet for their operations with B787.


Or not. There are still plenty rather fresh A330CEOs in the group fleet. And the replacement of those will see another tender and if we talk about SN/EW the A330NEO might be considered again.


I recently read an interview from the CEO of Swiss where he stated they‘ll keep three aircraft types in the longhaul fleet. My guess would be that they switch to two types when the A333 gets phased out.

Link in german: https://www.aerotelegraph.com/interview ... boeing-787
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:49 pm

Considering the CEOs are quite young, this is a long time out. First A330s needing to be replaced are SN and EW examples, but LH is not afraid to buy used, so it could easily be more A330CEOs.

But in the end LH is flexible. If somebody would drop cheap 787-9s on the used market, they would also have no problem to replace the A330CEOs faster.
 
Flying-Tiger
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:08 pm

And that´s probably the reason why no A330neo was considered - this competition was about replacement of the long-haul fleet (772, 343, 346, 744 etc), not about the "medium-haul" (strange what is considered medium-haul nowadays"). The competition was clearly between the 789 and 359, and selecting both gives a lot of leverage for future.

For the sometime-in-future upcoming competition for the A333 replacement it gives a very level playing field for both manufacturers, and a perfect situation for Lufthansa. Both will have sizeable subfleets at the carrier already, both see a large cake of 50+ frames etc. Competition will be cut-throat for an A359R or 789. And at 50 frames a new frame could be warranted as well, either A330neo or 797.

And further: they´ve now opened up the window for a "sub 779, above 789/359" competition, too - both Boeing and Airbus can enter their respective products, and again a very decent position to negotiate from.

For Lufthansa a very decent position to be in.
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Revelation
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:26 pm

pabloeing wrote:
"If we wouldn't have the difficulties with @Airport_FRA our aircraft order yesterday would have been different. We are in talks with the airport but it just doesn't go forward, we don't believe it'll change in the short term

Does anyone want to discuss this a bit further?

If LH had less difficulties with FRA, how would the aircraft order be different?

Presumably the +20 A359s for MUC are the clue.

Why does publicly calling FRA out benefit LH?
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:22 pm

I believe we'll see the A330NEO in LH colors at some point for long-thin routes.
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seabosdca
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:40 pm

Did not expect Eurowings 332s to be leaving the fleet anytime soon. There's nothing obvious to replace them given current orders.

If more 787s are ordered then maybe they can be replaced by secondhand LH or LX 333s.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:29 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
I believe we'll see the A330NEO in LH colors at some point for long-thin routes.


The 787-9 could perform the role just as well and would already be in the (Group's) fleet.





As for the A350-1000 as an A340-600 replacement, if LH wanted that model, I would have expected them to have ordered it rather than going all A350-900. Of course, I am sure they have model exchange options, but I could easily see a four class 777-9 having around 310 seats (say 8F | 56J | 32W | 214Y) taking that role as it would not be that much larger and still slot in nicely below the 747-8 and A380-800.
 
airbazar
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:04 pm

Revelation wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
"If we wouldn't have the difficulties with @Airport_FRA our aircraft order yesterday would have been different. We are in talks with the airport but it just doesn't go forward, we don't believe it'll change in the short term

Does anyone want to discuss this a bit further?

If LH had less difficulties with FRA, how would the aircraft order be different?

Presumably the +20 A359s for MUC are the clue.

Why does publicly calling FRA out benefit LH?


I don't know how the order would be different but LH and Fraport have been at odds over the discounted charges given to Ryanair which resulted in LH moving 5 A380's to MUC and investing heavily and expanding at their other hubs to spite Fraport. They believe that the costs at FRA are detrimental to their long term growth. For that reason alone it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of this order doesn't end up in FRA.
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:05 pm

Stitch wrote:
Of course, I am sure they have model exchange options, but I could easily see a four class 777-9 having around 310 seats (say 8F | 56J | 32W | 214Y) taking that role as it would not be that much larger and still slot in nicely below the 747-8 and A380-800.

LH's A350-900s already seat 293 or 319 passengers in a 3 class configuration (C/W/Y). Your 777-9 configuration would be very low density/high premium, much like the 747-8 is configured much less dense than the A380 with Lufthansa.

If that happens, I'd expect some of the 747-8 to be reconfigured more economy-heavy. A capacity boost of ~15% could be achieved by exchanging business with economy seating, to around 400 - 420 seats total. This would help make them a better 1:1 replacement on routes where the A380s capacity is actually used. The current capacity delta between a 747-8 and an A380 is still quite significant (~40% more).
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:10 pm

mxaxai wrote:
If that happens, I'd expect some of the 747-8 to be reconfigured more economy-heavy. A capacity boost of ~15% could be achieved by exchanging business with economy seating, to around 400 - 420 seats total. This would help make them a better 1:1 replacement on routes where the A380s capacity is actually used. The current capacity delta between a 747-8 and an A380 is still quite significant (~40% more).


Sounds logical. They did that with the 747-400 fleet.
 
stylo777
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:58 pm

Current 748 config is:
8F/80C/32E/244Y which totals to 364.

On the maindeck, they could easily remove the rear two C class row and replace them with three Y rows. This could result in following configuration:
8F/68C/32E/278Y and a total of 386 - not a big change in my opinion.
Removing the whole C class from main and leaving only the upper deck for C would significantly boost their Y capacity only.
Something like 8F/32C/32E/354Y (total 426).
 
sabby
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:52 am

While removing premium seats and adding a lot more Y seats would make the 748 closer to A380 in pax numbers, would LH really want to chase Y customers so much that they forego more margin from premium seats ? LH, BA and UA have some of the most dense premium seating compared to other BIG airlines and they can still get away with charging a premium due to loyalty and corporate contracts. I see no reason for them to focus on Y so much so they will reduce premium seats. In fact, by reducing available Y seats, they may be able to extract more yield. The rest they can redirect to partner airlines or other hubs.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:00 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
I believe we'll see the A330NEO in LH colors at some point for long-thin routes.

Why? What does the A330neo offer that the 787 does not? As I see it, the 787 beats the A330neo in every metric except perhaps delivery time, and that is why it has been languishing on the market. Airbus launched it believing that Boeing could not reduce their 787 backlog fast enough or get the price low enough and thought that they could hijack some orders based on price and delivery. But Boeing upped their production rate and cut costs so that the A330neo really has no point of advantage over the 787. The only big sale that the A330neo has racked up since DL (which occurred at the height of Boeing’s 787 problems) was EK, and that was clearly motivated by the need to do something with their A380 deposit money. I am not knocking the A330neo, it is a great plane. But the 787 is a better one.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
marcelh
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:10 pm

SEPilot wrote:
But the 787 is a better one.

We have lots of examples that “the better one” wasn’t chosen in the end. LH and the A346 is an example
 
mxaxai
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:41 pm

SEPilot wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I believe we'll see the A330NEO in LH colors at some point for long-thin routes.

Why? What does the A330neo offer that the 787 does not?

Commonality. I don't know how important that is to LH, seeing how they operate / ordered almost every other widebody model. But we don't see too much fleet and crew sharing between the groups. It wouldn't help Eurowings at DUS that Swiss has a 787 base in ZRH.

The LH group has a pure A320-based narrowbody fleet. The hubs in BRU (for SN), DUS and CGN (for EW) are small. The Eurowings longhaul operation is still quite complex and LH may want to simplify it. Having a common pilot pool and easy transitions for narrowbodies and widebodies might help.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:17 pm

sabby wrote:
While removing premium seats and adding a lot more Y seats would make the 748 closer to A380 in pax numbers, would LH really want to chase Y customers so much that they forego more margin from premium seats?


LH's initial three-class configurations did favor large Economy cabins on the A380 and 747-8, which were shrunk to make room for Premium Economy when they went four-classes, so you do raise an interesting point.

LH does have a significant number of 777-9s they can draw from: they have 20 on firm order, they reconfirmed they have 14 more that they have committed to, but not yet firmed, and they have a combination of 30 options and purchase rights. If they firmed 10-14 of those commitments, that would give them sufficient frames to replace the A340-600 fleet (configured in four classes at around 310 seats) and the 747-400 fleet (configured in three classes at around 360-370 seats).
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 pm

mxaxai wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
I believe we'll see the A330NEO in LH colors at some point for long-thin routes.

Why? What does the A330neo offer that the 787 does not?

Commonality. I don't know how important that is to LH, seeing how they operate / ordered almost every other widebody model. But we don't see too much fleet and crew sharing between the groups. It wouldn't help Eurowings at DUS that Swiss has a 787 base in ZRH.

The LH group has a pure A320-based narrowbody fleet. The hubs in BRU (for SN), DUS and CGN (for EW) are small. The Eurowings longhaul operation is still quite complex and LH may want to simplify it. Having a common pilot pool and easy transitions for narrowbodies and widebodies might help.

But they have the 777 and 748 in their long haul fleet as well as the A350. So commonality is a wash. The narrowbody fleet is all Airbus, but the wideboy fleet is well mixed.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:23 pm

SEPilot wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
Why? What does the A330neo offer that the 787 does not?

Commonality. I don't know how important that is to LH, seeing how they operate / ordered almost every other widebody model. But we don't see too much fleet and crew sharing between the groups. It wouldn't help Eurowings at DUS that Swiss has a 787 base in ZRH.

The LH group has a pure A320-based narrowbody fleet. The hubs in BRU (for SN), DUS and CGN (for EW) are small. The Eurowings longhaul operation is still quite complex and LH may want to simplify it. Having a common pilot pool and easy transitions for narrowbodies and widebodies might help.

But they have the 777 and 748 in their long haul fleet as well as the A350. So commonality is a wash. The narrowbody fleet is all Airbus, but the wideboy fleet is well mixed.


And with such a mixed fleet is it really farfetched to imagine, maybe, LH or someone in the group would potentially operate the NEO?
@DadCelo
 
LH779
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:28 pm

Stitch wrote:
sabby wrote:
While removing premium seats and adding a lot more Y seats would make the 748 closer to A380 in pax numbers, would LH really want to chase Y customers so much that they forego more margin from premium seats?


LH's initial three-class configurations did favor large Economy cabins on the A380 and 747-8, which were shrunk to make room for Premium Economy when they went four-classes, so you do raise an interesting point.


While it's true that the initial 748 config had more Y seats than the current one, it also had more J seats. 8 / 92 / 262 was the initial config of the 748. With premium eco that would be 8 / 92 / 32 / 208. A few years ago the A380s also had 8F and 92J (now 8F, 78J).


N14AZ wrote:
- LH was the first non-ME3-B77X-customer

Didn't they order the 77X even before the ME3?
Last edited by LH779 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:30 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Commonality. I don't know how important that is to LH, seeing how they operate / ordered almost every other widebody model. But we don't see too much fleet and crew sharing between the groups. It wouldn't help Eurowings at DUS that Swiss has a 787 base in ZRH.

The LH group has a pure A320-based narrowbody fleet. The hubs in BRU (for SN), DUS and CGN (for EW) are small. The Eurowings longhaul operation is still quite complex and LH may want to simplify it. Having a common pilot pool and easy transitions for narrowbodies and widebodies might help.

But they have the 777 and 748 in their long haul fleet as well as the A350. So commonality is a wash. The narrowbody fleet is all Airbus, but the wideboy fleet is well mixed.


And with such a mixed fleet is it really farfetched to imagine, maybe, LH or someone in the group would potentially operate the NEO?

Why? They already have the 787, and I have seen no analysis that says that the A330neo performs better; in fact, the 787 is better in every way that I know of. So what would be the point in buying it?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
vfw614
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:33 pm

Given the combined longhaul fleets of Lufthansa, Swissair, Eurowings, Brussels Airlines, Lufthansa Cargo and Austrian, Lufthansa group must be one of the most important (and thus powerful) buyers in the market. As it stands, they operate 173 long-haul aircraft which must be one of the largest fleets worldwide.

Airbus A330 = 50
Airbus A340 = 35
Airbus A350 = 12
Airbus A380 = 14
Boeing 747 = 32
Boeing 767 = 6
Boeing 777 = 22
MD11 = 12
 
Lewton
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:34 pm

SEPilot wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
But they have the 777 and 748 in their long haul fleet as well as the A350. So commonality is a wash. The narrowbody fleet is all Airbus, but the wideboy fleet is well mixed.


And with such a mixed fleet is it really farfetched to imagine, maybe, LH or someone in the group would potentially operate the NEO?

Why? They already have the 787, and I have seen no analysis that says that the A330neo performs better; in fact, the 787 is better in every way that I know of. So what would be the point in buying it?

Only reason would be for destinations that don't need the 787's range, but I doubt Lufthansa Group has enough of them to justify one more type.
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