LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

fraT · Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:59 am

Press release should be out soon.

LH has ordered 20 B787-9 and 20 additional A350-900, which will be delivered between 2022 and 2027 and replace older 4-engine aircraft.
The decision, which of the LHG airlines will receive these aircraft will come at a later stage.
Six A380 will leave the fleet in 2022 and 2023 and will go back to Airbus.

pabloeing · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:05 pm

¿How many widebodies on order now to LH?

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:07 pm

pabloeing wrote:
¿How many widebodies on order now to LH?

Without today's order:
20 779s and 13 A359s of the original order of 25
2 77Ws for Swiss

DL747400 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 pm

Not totally unexpected except for the A380 news. Shocking that these are leaving the fleet so soon. The cost involved in operating and maintaining the beast must be unimaginable. Another nail in the A380's coffin.

Pudelhund · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:09 pm

Are the 789 for Swiss?

frigatebird · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:11 pm

fraT wrote:
Press release should be out soon.

I suppose you have had some kind of sneak preview?

I trust you are correct, and this would be very good news after all the bad news the past few days, it's a welcome distraction.

fraT wrote:
Six A380 will leave the fleet in 2022 and 2023 and will go back to Airbus.

I did not expect that, appeared LH was happy with the A380 fleet they have. Didn't need more, but certainly didn't appear having trouble filling the ones they have in their fleet. I suppose these will be replaced by the 777X they have on order, with the other 777X replacing LH's 744s. A359s to replace the remaining A346s amongst others.

pabloeing wrote:
¿The B789 go to LH or Swiss or Austrian ?

My guess would be Swiss and LH, as A343 replacements. Don't think the A333s need replacement yet.

GEUltraFan9XGTF · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:11 pm

Why does everyone assume the 787 is for everyone but LH? Why are certain forum members so afraid of a 787 in LH colors?

LSZH34 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:16 pm

Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.

cougar15 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:18 pm

Great news, especially the 789 I think would be a great aircraft for them! Not to be rude, but any source? LH´s Press site is not exactly full of related headlines?

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:19 pm

LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.

They could also replace all 5 A343s and 14 A333s with the 20 789s and use the pretty young A333s to replace older aircraft at LH, OS and SN/EW.

pabloeing · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:21 pm

¿Maybe B787-10 for LH too?

Spontex · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:21 pm

LH can now replace all A340 with A350s, this is awesome news!

And 20 777X can replace 13 747-400 and 6 A380s.

Will be interesting to see where they will deploy the 787-9. I can imagine that they could use all 787-9s at LH Mainline to replace their entire A330s and move around these A330s to SN for EW and possibly also to OS.

Someone83 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 pm

Nothing out in the press yet?

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:22 pm

pabloeing wrote:
¿Maybe B787-10 for LH too?

On top of 45 A359s?

Rifitto · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:24 pm

The legend says that the A380 has way better economics than the B748 ,how comes LH are getting rid of the whale and keeping the queen ?

LSZH34 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:26 pm

LH779 wrote:
LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.

They could also replace all 5 A343s and 14 A333s with the 20 789s and use the pretty young A333s to replace older aircraft at LH, OS and SN/EW.

Don't think so. This site always talks about shifting metal within the LH Group yet it has never happened, except from a few 320 from LH to EW, but that's a different story.

BlueSky1976 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:26 pm

789s are most likely for Austrian and Swiss. A350s - definitely for Lufthansa.

frigatebird · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:27 pm

LH779 wrote:
LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.

They could also replace all 5 A343s and 14 A333s with the 20 789s and use the pretty young A333s to replace older aircraft at LH, OS and SN/EW.

SN already has ex SQ A333s to replace the old ones. I don't think LH will take LX' A333s to make room for the 789 (or A359 for that matter) at LX. Other way around is possible though. Will be interesting to see if Eurowings or OS will be involved, it's possible but I don't think so.

JAAlbert · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:28 pm

What is the arrangement by which the 380s are heading back to Airbus? Is Airbus purchasing them back, or is this the conclusion of a lease agreement with Airbus the lessor? How old are these 380s? LH usually flies their planes for years.

MIflyer12 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:29 pm

fraT wrote:
Six A380 will leave the fleet in 2022 and 2023 and will go back to Airbus.

That is interesting. Did LH have resale rights from the original A380 purchase, or were these rights obtained with today's A359 purchase?

BobMUC · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:30 pm

First public news are coming in:

https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-d ... SFWN2100K0

Revelation · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Presser: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 1be31d4600

With regards to A380:

In today’s session, the Lufthansa Group Executive Board also informed the Supervisory Board of the sale of six of its 14 Airbus A380 planes to Airbus. The aircraft will be leaving Lufthansa in 2022 and 2023. The parties have agreed not disclose the purchasing price. The transaction will not affect the group’s earnings performance.

Suggests that it's a part of the deal to get the A350s.

Lufthansa continuously monitors the profitability of its world-wide route network. As a consequence, the group is reducing the size of its Airbus A380 fleet from 14 aircraft to eight for economic reasons. The structure of the network and the long-haul fleet, fundamentally optimized according to strategic aspects, will give the company more flexibility and at the same time increase its efficiency and competitiveness. This will of course also benefit Lufthansa’s customers.

So we have it, "economic reasons". Make of that what you will...

seahawk · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
789s are most likely for Austrian and Swiss. A350s - definitely for Lufthansa.

789 are for A343s and A350 are for A346.

Blotto · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Someone83 wrote:
Nothing out in the press yet?

Because the press conference is tomorrow and I doubt that this order was planned to be announced today. Leak...

MrHMSH · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 pm

Nice order for both, part of me thinks the 789 would be for LX or OS, but to see it in LH itself would be no shock nor a bad thing.

LSZH34 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 pm

https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 1be31d4600

x1234 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:37 pm

Press release now on LH website: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 1be31d4600

817Dreamliiner · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:39 pm

Blotto wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Nothing out in the press yet?

Because the press conference is tomorrow and I doubt that this order was planned to be announced today. Leak...

Well they just posted about a short while ago:

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 4749587458

And a 787-9 photo:

N328KF · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:40 pm

The photo at this link (and in the press release) shows the 787-9 in Lufthansa, Austrian, and Swiss colors. To me, this would seem to mean that the 787 has been chosen as the group-wide airframe for that category.

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 1100523523

scbriml · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 pm

The presser shows the 787 in LH colours but does also say...

The decision regarding which airline will deploy the aircraft at which hub will be made at a later date.

Kilopond · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:42 pm

cougar15 wrote:
[...]Not to be rude, but any source? LH´s Press site is not exactly full of related headlines?

Their annual report is due tomorrow 14MAR 06:00 UTC. Expect an official release by that time.

GEUltraFan9XGTF · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:46 pm

817Dreamliiner wrote:
Blotto wrote:
Someone83 wrote:
Nothing out in the press yet?

Because the press conference is tomorrow and I doubt that this order was planned to be announced today. Leak...

Well they just posted about a short while ago:

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 4749587458

And a 787-9 photo:

We all knew we would see the day. She is a beauty. Congrats to Boeing!

dare100em · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:48 pm

The A350 is shown in LH-colours only at LH web-page, while the 787-9 is shown in all 3 liveries (Swiss, Austrian, LH) including LH itself.

GEUltraFan9XGTF · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:48 pm

N328KF wrote:
The photo at this link (and in the press release) shows the 787-9 in Lufthansa, Austrian, and Swiss colors. To me, this would seem to mean that the 787 has been chosen as the group-wide airframe for that category.

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 1100523523

Interesting. Either this (initial) order will be split, say 10 to LH, 5 to OS, and 5 to LX, or they really have no idea where they are going yet. But it sounds to me like it is going to all three.

LifelinerOne · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:49 pm

In the Lufthansa-press release is also a nice picture of the B787-9 in Austrian and Swiss-colors... Does this mean the 20 planes will be spreaded within the group?

Cheer! :wave:

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm

LSZH34 wrote:
LH779 wrote:
LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.

They could also replace all 5 A343s and 14 A333s with the 20 789s and use the pretty young A333s to replace older aircraft at LH, OS and SN/EW.

Don't think so. This site always talks about shifting metal within the LH Group yet it has never happened, except from a few 320 from LH to EW, but that's a different story.

A320s, A333s and A343s were shifted from LH to EW and back (at least the 2 A343s will return to LH).
I know there are always crazy ideas about fleet shifts between LH Group airlines like LX 77Ws to OS but I think replacing the LX airbus longhaul fleet with 20 789s would actually make sense. You would have an all Boeing longhaul fleet at LX and a bunch of pretty new A333s that can be used to replace the A333s that LH gave to EW, grow the EW fleet, replace the oldest OS aircraft and maybe you'd still have some to give to SN.

LaunchDetected · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:51 pm

dare100em wrote:
The A350 is shown in LH-colours only at LH web-page, while the 787-9 is shown in all 3 liveries (Swiss, Austrian, LH) including LH itself.

That's one of the most important part of the news. Lufthansa is a group.

MIflyer12 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
Lufthansa continuously monitors the profitability of its world-wide route network. As a consequence, the group is reducing the size of its Airbus A380 fleet from 14 aircraft to eight for economic reasons. The structure of the network and the long-haul fleet, fundamentally optimized according to strategic aspects, will give the company more flexibility and at the same time increase its efficiency and competitiveness. This will of course also benefit Lufthansa’s customers.

So we have it, "economic reasons". Make of that what you will...

There aren't too many different ways to interpret that. It's an established type still operated in decent quantity by a variety of carriers - not like repair and maintenance costs that are killing DL MD-90s.

Economic reasons, principally, can mean:

CASM is too high (meaning relative to A350/787)

RASM is too low because they're too big to fill at high-enough average fares in the routes of LH route network

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:54 pm

LaunchDetected wrote:
dare100em wrote:
The A350 is shown in LH-colours only at LH web-page, while the 787-9 is shown in all 3 liveries (Swiss, Austrian, LH) including LH itself.

That's one of the most important part of the news. Lufthansa is a group.

And:

The decision regarding which airline will deploy the aircraft at which hub will be made at a later date.

sabby · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:55 pm

I never really liked the new LH livery but the 789 looks great in the white and blue.

GEUltraFan9XGTF · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:56 pm

LifelinerOne wrote:
In the Lufthansa-press release is also a nice picture of the B787-9 in Austrian and Swiss-colors... Does this mean the 20 planes will be spreaded within the group?

Cheer!

That is my guess.

Any guesses on the distribution?

OS: has 6 763ER (average age is 23 years) and 6 772ER (average age is 18 years).
LX: has 5 A343
LH: has 15 A343

This LH order could be a 1:1 replacement for the 20 A343 at LX and LH, leaving OS with nothing new. Of maybe the split will be 6/5/9 to OS/LX/LH?

Elshad · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:57 pm

I think Austrian needs the 789 the most. Their 763 and 77E are old (average age 23 and 18 years)

LSZH34 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:59 pm

LX and OS getting a few 789 out of the 20 is a safe bet imho.

LH779 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:05 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
In the Lufthansa-press release is also a nice picture of the B787-9 in Austrian and Swiss-colors... Does this mean the 20 planes will be spreaded within the group?

Cheer!

That is my guess.

Any guesses on the distribution?

OS: has 6 763ER (average age is 23 years) and 6 772ER (average age is 18 years).
LX: has 5 A343
LH: has 15 A343

This LH order could be a 1:1 replacement for the 20 A343 at LX and LH, leaving OS with nothing new. Of maybe the split will be 6/5/9 to OS/LX/LH?

It could also mean no 789 for LH.

LH currently operates (planes that need to be replaced in the near future):
15+2 A343s (2 will come back from EW later this year)
17 A346s
13 744s
6 A388

these could also be replaced 1:1 by:
33 A359 (13 of the original order + 20 from today's)
20 779s

Then 12 789s replace the OS fleet and 8 replace 5 A343s and some A333s at LX.

But of course I don't know anything about their real plans. That is just a scenario I think would be plausible.

trijetsonly · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:07 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
LifelinerOne wrote:
In the Lufthansa-press release is also a nice picture of the B787-9 in Austrian and Swiss-colors... Does this mean the 20 planes will be spreaded within the group?

Cheer!

That is my guess.

Any guesses on the distribution?

OS: has 6 763ER (average age is 23 years) and 6 772ER (average age is 18 years).
LX: has 5 A343
LH: has 15 A343

This LH order could be a 1:1 replacement for the 20 A343 at LX and LH, leaving OS with nothing new. Of maybe the split will be 6/5/9 to OS/LX/LH?

My guess is
~15 787-9 for OS to replace the complete longhaul fleet.
~5 787-9 for LX to replace A343
20 A350-900 for LH to replace A343 and A333 (which will go to SN).

So no 787 for LH

WIederling · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:08 pm

Rifitto wrote:
The legend says that the A380 has way better economics than the B748 ,how comes LH are getting rid of the whale and keeping the queen ?

Do they have some buy back provisions that they don't have with the 748i ?
some perceived attack vector from the US ( buying 789 and keeping 748i as fire insurance? )

LSZH34 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:09 pm

My guess:

12-15 787 for OS
5-8 for LX
no 787 for LH at the moment

peterinlisbon · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:14 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Not totally unexpected except for the A380 news. Shocking that these are leaving the fleet so soon. The cost involved in operating and maintaining the beast must be unimaginable. Another nail in the A380's coffin.

Yes, I can understand that airlines don't want to buy the aircraft new because it's expensive but I find it really strange how airlines that have already paid for the thing are not keeping it for the 20-25 years that it would be capable of flying, as they did with their 747s.

N47 · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:17 pm

Great news! I would imagine at least some of the 787 would replace the 767s in the OS fleet. By 2025 the 767 would be 30 years old.

flee · Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:19 pm

Isn't LX just refurbishing its A343s this year? Maybe their new aircraft will come closer to 2025.

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