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desediez
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:34 pm

I still remember the words of Spohr when he said: Every carrier within the group must earn the money themself for new metal. Therefore i highly doubt that OS will get portions of this order.Maybe they will receive in exchange some A330 from LH/LX to replace aging 767s. Same way like some LH A330 which where shifted to SN for EW use.
....but who knows.
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AECM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:35 pm

RalXWB wrote:
AECM wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
The CEO publicly stated that they bought too many 779s and too few 350s so no surprise here. With 20 additional orders, will LH be the largest 350 customer worldwide?


Taking in account orders for the A350 Qatar (76) will be the largest followed by Singapore (67) and Cathay (46). Lufthansa with the additional 20 goes to a total of 45.


Thank you but did Quatar not cancel 42 units or so?


Etihad was the one that cancelled A350
Last edited by AECM on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LifelinerOne
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:39 pm

desediez wrote:
I still remember the words of Spohr when he said: Every carrier within the group must earn the money themself for new metal. Therefore i highly doubt that OS will get portions of this order.Maybe they will receive in exchange some A330 from LH/LX to replace aging 767s. Same way like some LH A330 which where shifted to SN for EW use.
....but who knows.


Yes, but they also recently said that making money with this old longhaul-fleet would prove to be very difficult, so were thinking about replacing them.

As said earlier, moving the A330s from Lufthansa to Austrian would not make sense as the variant they operate are not convenient for the Austrian-network.

Cheers! :wave:
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MSPNWA
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:43 pm

Sad news on the A380. With LH dumping some early, none of them are safe. Looks its days will be shorter than anyone would have expected. Enjoy them while they last.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:46 pm

Would love to see some of the A350 go to Swiss!
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DartHerald
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:47 pm

+Don't Lufthansa's A380s have RR engines? These could provide the cheap extra examples that IAG want.
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:56 pm

A350 will repalce the remaining A346s, the rest will be decided in the future.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:59 pm

columba wrote:
If you read the press release in full:
"With the Airbus A350-900, the Boeing 777-9 and the Boeing 787-9, Lufthansa Group will own the most fuel-efficient long-haul aircraft of their class in terms of kerosene consumption per passenger and 100 kilometers flown."
"In addition to this, Lufthansa Group will be significantly reducing the diversification and complexity of its fleet over the next few years and taking seven aircraft types out of service, which will reduce cost and complexity for maintenance and the supply of replacement parts, among other things." You get the impression that LH plans with a longhaul fleet consisting of only 787,A350 and 777 (7 types replaced A340-300, A340-600, 767-300, 777-200, 747-400 being the 5 most obvious leaves two more types for the future 747-8 and A380 maybe ??? or are smaller Jets like the Embraer included)

LH is returning the A380, so that leaves one more.

Fleet simplification is a good way to go.
779 for the VLA/Combi duty
A359 for longer missions.
789 for shorter (e.g., most TATL, Africa, some Asia) excluding where payload at range of the 779 or A359 come into play.

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william
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 pm

Polot wrote:
LH Technik already does work on the 787, yes.


Thank you.
 
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Lilienthal
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:03 pm

redcap1962 wrote:
N328KF wrote:
The photo at this link (and in the press release) shows the 787-9 in Lufthansa, Austrian, and Swiss colors. To me, this would seem to mean that the 787 has been chosen as the group-wide airframe for that category.

https://twitter.com/lufthansaNews/statu ... 1100523523

Image


The people at Luftys social media team need some retraining regarding the actual paint sceme of OS :lol:


Judging by the LH tail, this graphic comes from Boeing. They still use the dimensions of the old livery for the new colors, which is mildly annoying... you can find the exact same mistake in the LH 777X visualizations on Boeing‘s website.

So i wouldn‘t be surprised if there are mistakes with other airlines as well...

edit: actually, in the 787 graphic LH's logo size is more or less correct but it‘s still in the wrong position...
Last edited by Lilienthal on Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:12 pm

xwb565 wrote:
Since the Lufthansa CEO has publicly stated that the 14 779 option were a part of this order's negotiation, we can speculate if they still exist or have been converted into the 789 order. I suspect they are gone. I am not sure why the mods deleted the previous posts on this since this does not constitute any sort of flame bait but rather a factual aspect of this deal?


I believe the 14 you mention were orders to be reconfirmed (therefore not on Boeing's orderbook). Might very well be these are now converted to 20x 787-9. But I believe LH had 30 more options/purchase rights on top of those 14, I personally do believe these still exist.

RalXWB wrote:
The CEO publicly stated that they bought too many 779s and too few 350s so no surprise here. With 20 additional orders, will LH be the largest 350 customer worldwide?

Now that LH will retire 6 A380s, it's quite obvious LH now doesn't have too many 777X on order. Those 20 will replace 13x 744 and 6 A380s. Anyway Spohr confirmed in a for more recent interview later they did need the 20 777X on order (and possibly even more).

desediez wrote:
I still remember the words of Spohr when he said: Every carrier within the group must earn the money themself for new metal. Therefore i highly doubt that OS will get portions of this order.Maybe they will receive in exchange some A330 from LH/LX to replace aging 767s. Same way like some LH A330 which where shifted to SN for EW use.
....but who knows.

OS still needs to become more profitable, but the 787 in OS livery clearly shows there is within the LH group confidence this will happen :yes:
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:14 pm

william wrote:
Polot wrote:
LH Technik already does work on the 787, yes.


Thank you.

more or less from day one:
https://www.presseportal.de/pm/55257/2117967

( 2011: LH-Technik services JAL 787 fleet )
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B747forever
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:15 pm

Congrats to both Airbus and Boeing. Though, what a sad state the A380 is in...
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IslandRob
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:16 pm

scbriml wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Since the Lufthansa CEO has publicly stated that the 14 779 option were a part of this order's negotiation, we can speculate if they still exist or have been converted into the 789 order. I suspect they are gone. I am not sure why the mods deleted the previous posts on this since this does not constitute any sort of flame bait but rather a factual aspect of this deal?


The same CEO also said last year that LH had ordered too many 77X and not enough A350s. Switching 77X options to 789s and buying additional A350s would seem to neatly address that.


Yes, but that was before the news that LH would be dumping 6 A380s on a relatively accelerated schedule. Plans change, and perhaps LH has re-evaluated its 779 needs. Time will tell. -ir
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precure787
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:21 pm

Does that even help recover either Airbus and Boeing from their biggest headaches currently? We know that Airbus suffered their biggest headache for this year after the A380 program will end with Emirates reducing their A380 orders in favor of smaller ones, costing Airbus financial losses sustained from the A380 program alone, as other airlines either ordered less than that of the 747s (in the case of BA, AF, LH, MH, NH), or simply lacked interest. Boeing, on the other hand, suffers their own headache due to the PR crisis relating to the 737 MAX, associated with groundings in major countries, except for Canada and the US.
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:28 pm

The Lufthansa Group Supervisory Board approved the purchase of 34 777-9 plus 30 options in September 2013. I expect these 34 were done as "commitments" with 20 being firmed immediately as part of cancelling their 20 747-8 purchase rights.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:42 pm

Surprising news on the A380. Considering that LH was able to make the A346 work for them when most others flocked to the 77W once it proved its performance; LH even topped up their order after that. Dumping 6 A380s at this point is certainly a vote of no confidence in it, as is AF halving their fleet.
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Polot
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:43 pm

IslandRob wrote:
scbriml wrote:
xwb565 wrote:
Since the Lufthansa CEO has publicly stated that the 14 779 option were a part of this order's negotiation, we can speculate if they still exist or have been converted into the 789 order. I suspect they are gone. I am not sure why the mods deleted the previous posts on this since this does not constitute any sort of flame bait but rather a factual aspect of this deal?


The same CEO also said last year that LH had ordered too many 77X and not enough A350s. Switching 77X options to 789s and buying additional A350s would seem to neatly address that.


Yes, but that was before the news that LH would be dumping 6 A380s on a relatively accelerated schedule. Plans change, and perhaps LH has re-evaluated its 779 needs. Time will tell. -ir

I’ll add that the CEO said they *might* have ordered too many 779s. They never outright stated that they did like many here implied. Like what you said with A380s leaving earlier than most anticipated (and, I suspect, 748s shortly behind them) LH may have a different opinion on whether they ordered too many 777s or not now.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:51 pm

The LH group certainly have operated an incredible variety of aircraft, especially widebodies, it almost felt wrong that they hadn't ordered the 787 yet!
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lightsaber
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:57 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Surprising news on the A380. Considering that LH was able to make the A346 work for them when most others flocked to the 77W once it proved its performance; LH even topped up their order after that. Dumping 6 A380s at this point is certainly a vote of no confidence in it, as is AF halving their fleet.

I agree in that I thought the A380 would work for LH as the A346 did.

LH needs fleet simplification. 6 is too few.

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Veigar
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:57 pm

Rifitto wrote:
The legend says that the A380 has way better economics than the B748 ,how comes LH are getting rid of the whale and keeping the queen ?


Queen will be queen I guess. Everyone seems to be on an "GET RID OF A380" bucket list.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:06 pm

The A380-800 and 747-8 have (effectively) identical First and Business Class cabins. The Premium Economy cabin is 60% larger on the A380 and the Economy cabin is 40% larger so perhaps the A380 is just too large in back?
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 pm

I’m pleasantly surprised. I thought it was more likely that LH would place an order for the 339, which they may still do of course. I would’ve preferred to see the old LH livery on the 789, but it is what it is. A little bit of good news for Boeing during what could be one of the worst weeks in Boeing’s existence.
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Polot
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:13 pm

Stitch wrote:
The A380-800 and 747-8 have (effectively) identical First and Business Class cabins. The Premium Economy cabin is 60% larger on the A380 and the Economy cabin is 40% larger so perhaps the A380 is just too large in back?

LH’s A380s first entered service in 2010. I suspect that they had a buyback clause in the contract that came into effect after 12 years. The first 748s entered into the fleet in 2012. LH is probably negotiating a similar buyback for the 747-8s if not already in the contract with the buyback starting mid 2020s, but that would probably be in conjunction with follow up 779 and/or 787 orders. No need to rush ahead with that now though, LH can wait until they have more solid in service 779 data.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:22 pm

As stated many times, the 380 nowadays has become very uneconomical for its operators (expect EK). You just can't simply fly it around below 75-80% SLF and with so many seats to sell, the daily challenge is quite obvious.
Add to that the reduced cargo capacity and voila, your smaller 748 or 77X become even more beautiful.

Is there an overview of confirmed widebody orders and options as well as a timeline for 'Exit out of service'? It's very confusing with all the comments quoting Carsten Spohr what he said or might have meant or etc etc etc (...you get my point).
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:33 pm

So why did the LH press department release renderings of the 787 in each the LH, LX, and OS colors if the thing is ONLY going to LX and OS (according to gospel here at A.net).
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ScottB
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:37 pm

Polot wrote:
LH’s A380s first entered service in 2010. I suspect that they had a buyback clause in the contract that came into effect after 12 years.


My suspicion is that they might have a buyback clause which was triggered by the cancellation of the A380 program; if other customers had a similar clause as part of their orders, that might partially explain why Airbus had been pushing so hard to string out production for the past several years. Or maybe it's both: If the program were to be cancelled, Airbus agreed to buy back the A380s at a pre-determined price at 12 years. LH disclosed the sale of the A380s wouldn't impact earnings of the group so it's likely they're being sold for the book value after 12 years of depreciation.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:39 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
So why did the LH press department release renderings of the 787 in each the LH, LX, and OS colors if the thing is ONLY going to LX and OS (according to gospel here at A.net).


Because they haven’t decided which airline to send them too yet. Plus I doubt they’ll split 20 planes between 3 airlines (although they could). And there’s logical doubt LH will take them because they already operate the A350.
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lightsaber
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:49 pm

ScottB wrote:
Polot wrote:
LH’s A380s first entered service in 2010. I suspect that they had a buyback clause in the contract that came into effect after 12 years.


My suspicion is that they might have a buyback clause which was triggered by the cancellation of the A380 program; if other customers had a similar clause as part of their orders, that might partially explain why Airbus had been pushing so hard to string out production for the past several years. Or maybe it's both: If the program were to be cancelled, Airbus agreed to buy back the A380s at a pre-determined price at 12 years. LH disclosed the sale of the A380s wouldn't impact earnings of the group so it's likely they're being sold for the book value after 12 years of depreciation.

I suspect you are correct on the 12 year buyback at book value.

What I do not know is the fate of the other 8 LH A388. Perhaps it is too early to inform Airbus? Perhaps LH could decide later, but may only return at 12 years, so why lock in now?

This doesn't bode well between SQ returning several, with one resold. AF returning 5. Now LH 6. EK could be interesting.

Do the later LH 8 have the wing twist and other PIPs?

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seabosdca
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:50 pm

Not sure why everyone thinks LH mainline won't operate any 787s. They, like LX, have 343s that need replacement and the 789 is pretty much a drop-in replacement for a 343.

This is good news for Boeing beyond "just" an order for 20 aircraft, because it will make it easier to sell further 789 or 78J as a group-wide 333 replacement in the future. The next tranche of orders may well see older LH or LX 333 migrate to OS or SN and be replaced by 789s. For SN, replacing its high-hour, early-build 333s with newer 333s would be cheap and seamless. It wouldn't be quite as seamless for OS, which has 772s and 763s to replace, but it would drastically improve network economics for them too.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:00 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Not sure why everyone thinks LH mainline won't operate any 787s. They, like LX, have 343s that need replacement and the 789 is pretty much a drop-in replacement for a 343.


I believe back in 2013 when they ordered the 777-9 and A350-900, LH noted that the 787-9 was "too small" for them (and the 787-10 lacked the range for around 40% of their routes), but as others have noted, times and plans can change.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
questions
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:00 pm

From a network and fleet planning perspective, why the A359 and 789 vs one or the other? What are a couple of examples where the A359 would be the optimal aircraft on a LG Group route and where the 789 would be the optimal aircraft? If LH Group ordered all of one vs the other would there be material gaps or sub-optimization in the fleets?
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm

SEPilot wrote:
Surprising news on the A380. Considering that LH was able to make the A346 work for them when most others flocked to the 77W once it proved its performance; LH even topped up their order after that. Dumping 6 A380s at this point is certainly a vote of no confidence in it, as is AF halving their fleet.


If the downturn in the airline industry that some people are predicting takes place, I think you're going to see them leaving fleets worldwide pretty quickly. As it is, I believe they represent a lot of commercial risk, which is why airlines are starting to move away from them.
 
pabloeing
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:07 pm

¿Future of the B748I's in LH fleet?.....¿more B777-9X to remplace the Jumbo?
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:09 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Not sure why everyone thinks LH mainline won't operate any 787s. They, like LX, have 343s that need replacement and the 789 is pretty much a drop-in replacement for a 343.

1. Spohr stated that they would not operate 789s and A359s from the same hub
2. LH needs 20 planes on top of the remaining 13 A359s and 20 779s to replace the A343, A346, 744 and 6 A388
3. LH already operates 12 A359s, currently only out of MUC

That would mean:
All 789s to FRA, 25 A359 to MUC, 20 A359 to Swiss, Austrian gets used A333s from LX
OR, what I think is more likely:
45 A359s to LH, 20 789s to LX, Austrian gets used A333s from LX (Or 12 789s to OS and 8 to LX with another 787 order later on)

The longhaul fleets of LH, LX and OS would look like this:

LH:
A333
A359
779
748
A388

LX:
789
77W

OS:
A333
 
IWMBH
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:09 pm

Am I the only one that expected LH to go for the A330neo?
 
C010T3
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:11 pm

The business model of Lufthansa has changed significantly since the A380 was ordered. It used to be about allowing growth at FRA despite constraints. The growth outside the big legacy hubs has been impressive and a lot of traffic has been captured by the ME3.
The counter-reaction has been about gaining capillarity. Building the group has been a great part of it.
 
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AECM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm

LH779 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
Not sure why everyone thinks LH mainline won't operate any 787s. They, like LX, have 343s that need replacement and the 789 is pretty much a drop-in replacement for a 343.

1. Spohr stated that they would not operate 789s and A359s from the same hub
2. LH needs 20 planes on top of the remaining 13 A359s and 20 779s to replace the A343, A346, 744 and 6 A388
3. LH already operates 12 A359s, currently only out of MUC

That would mean:
All 789s to FRA, 25 A359 to MUC, 20 A359 to Swiss, Austrian gets used A333s from LX
OR, what I think is more likely:
45 A359s to LH, 20 789s to LX, Austrian gets used A333s from LX (Or 12 789s to OS and 8 to LX with another 787 order later on)

The longhaul fleets of LH, LX and OS would look like this:

LH:
A333
A359
779
748
A388

LX:
789
77W

OS:
A333


I think that Austrian will get the B789 and will not go back to Airbus WB
Last edited by AECM on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm

questions wrote:
From a network and fleet planning perspective, why the A359 and 789 vs one or the other? What are a couple of examples where the A359 would be the optimal aircraft on a LG Group route and where the 789 would be the optimal aircraft? If LH Group ordered all of one vs the other would there be material gaps or sub-optimization in the fleets?


A lot depends on where the 789s end up, but an increasing number of airlines are operating, or have ordered, both the A359 and 789.

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
So why did the LH press department release renderings of the 787 in each the LH, LX, and OS colors if the thing is ONLY going to LX and OS (according to gospel here at A.net).


Just to excite some and disappoint others? :spin:

Those that can read probably understand why.

The decision regarding which airline will deploy the aircraft at which hub will be made at a later date.
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AECM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Am I the only one that expected LH to go for the A330neo?


Its still a possibility... we will see.
Last edited by AECM on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 pm

Rifitto wrote:
The legend says that the A380 has way better economics than the B748 ,how comes LH are getting rid of the whale and keeping the queen ?


Higher LF and therefore PRASM.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:19 pm

RalXWB wrote:
The CEO publicly stated that they bought too many 779s and too few 350s so no surprise here. With 20 additional orders, will LH be the largest 350 customer worldwide?

That's such a juicy narrative, too bad it isn't what happened.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... serve-cash says it was just a comment in a staff meeting in an internal video that leaked to Bloomberg.

I’m not sure if we’ve really ordered enough A350s and possibly too many 777Xs,” Spohr said at a staff meeting, a replay of which was seen by Bloomberg. “We must now think about either stretching the 777X in a deal with Boeing to let them come in more slowly, or increasing profitability to finance our overdue fleet investments.”

Therefore not a public comment nor a statement of policy nor even a definitive statement, just a comment at a staff meeting.

For all we know, it could have been a way to motivate the staff to find ways to increase profitability if they expected to get the new planes they have options for.
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stylo777
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:27 pm

OS did once a complete fleet change from A330/A340 to B767/B777; in current financial situation I highly doubt that they could afford phasing in the A333 and phasing out the Boeings. Crew training is a significant topic which requires a lot of resources (time, money, infrastructure and actually also the planes). On top, the 333 is not a replacement for their 772 routes due to lacking range. Therefore, if at all, OS would only look into the 787 part of this order. Crew training from 767/777 to 787 is easier and requires much less of resources.

However, this is different with LX. They operate both the Airbus 330/340 and Boeing 777 combo. They could go either way - 787 or 350, but their CEO Thomas Kluehr often mentioned that they are in favor of the 350. There are many reasons strenghtening this position:
- as mentioned above, crew training (333/343 to 359)
- they are the only ones in the group still flying with First Class on their whole longhaul fleet
- they are also the only one not yet having introduced Premium Economy
of course, the 359 is much bigger than the 333/343, but with keeping First and the PremEco introduction this could be compensated easily.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:53 pm

A339 will never see the light of day at LH group.
We have no idea what their 779 options status really looks like.
I am certain this is just an initial order. They will wait and examine performance in-fleet and most likely build their long-term WB strategy around the (797), 789, 359, 779.
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:00 pm

LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding engine choice: They stated that engine type will be decided later, but interestingly they attached a RR Trent factsheet and the rendering shows the Trent aswell....


Seemingly not too much later as Rolls have issued a press release saying they will power both the 789 and the A359 with the Trent 1000 and XWB respectively. Rolls must be glad to get a new order from a high profile airline group after all the recent Trent problems.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... craft.aspx
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:12 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
A339 will never see the light of day at LH group.
We have no idea what their 779 options status really looks like.
I am certain this is just an initial order. They will wait and examine performance in-fleet and most likely build their long-term WB strategy around the (797), 789, 359, 779.

I wonder if the 789 order is just a place holder for the 797. LH did express interest in it some while back and Boeing still hasn't been given a proper authority to offer. But committing to the product behind the scenes and making a downpayment could strengthen Boeing's business case.

Considering a total widebody fleet of over 150 jets and a large future A350-900 fleet, 20 787s seems a bit odd. Better to convert them into 40 - 50 797s later to replace the 767, A330 and to upgauge some A321 routes.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:14 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Not totally unexpected except for the A380 news. Shocking that these are leaving the fleet so soon. The cost involved in operating and maintaining the beast must be unimaginable. Another nail in the A380's coffin.


They had already said they were reducing the fleet from 14 to 8. So they are not all leaving the fleet.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:16 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I wonder if the 789 order is just a place holder for the 797. LH did express interest in it some while back and Boeing still hasn't been given a proper authority to offer. But committing to the product behind the scenes and making a downpayment could strengthen Boeing's business case.


Most unlikely, IMO.


mxaxai wrote:
Considering a total widebody fleet of over 150 jets and a large future A350-900 fleet, 20 787s seems a bit odd. Better to convert them into 40 - 50 797s later to replace the 767, A330 and to upgauge some A321 routes.


LH (Group) does not have to stop at 20.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

stylo777 wrote:
OS did once a complete fleet change from A330/A340 to B767/B777; in current financial situation I highly doubt that they could afford phasing in the A333 and phasing out the Boeings. Crew training is a significant topic which requires a lot of resources (time, money, infrastructure and actually also the planes). On top, the 333 is not a replacement for their 772 routes due to lacking range. Therefore, if at all, OS would only look into the 787 part of this order. Crew training from 767/777 to 787 is easier and requires much less of resources.


I'm sure that OS could build a business case to finance a transition to 333s. They would achieve major operational savings on most of the network, and increase revenue potential on transatlantic 767 routes. We've seen that LH wants its business units to be self-supporting, but It's not like LH won't provide the capital if there is going to be a clear return on it.

The range question is trickier, because a few OS routes (CPT, NRT, maybe MRU/BKK/PVG) would require a 242 t 333 and all of the LH and LX 333 fleets were produced too early to be 242 t capable. If used 242 t A333s become available from non-LH sources, perhaps a few of them could be attractive for OS.
 
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:21 pm

Arion640 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
So why did the LH press department release renderings of the 787 in each the LH, LX, and OS colors if the thing is ONLY going to LX and OS (according to gospel here at A.net).


Because they haven’t decided which airline to send them too yet.


Yeah, let‘s invest millions and look later what to do with the aircraft. This is just a bad PR statement. They know exactly where to place them.
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