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gatibosgru
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm

The 787/A350 combo is perfect.
@DadCelo
 
mcg
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
789s are most likely for Austrian and Swiss. A350s - definitely for Lufthansa.


789 are for A343s and A350 are for A346.


Ugh...a whole bunch of 3-3-3 coach seating replacing a lot of 2-4-2 coach seating. Definite down grade.
 
kimimm19
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

Why would you have a small fleet of 787 at Swiss when they clearly will need the a350 in the long run?

OS should take the 787 and continue on with Boeing, while 5 of the a350 should go to Swiss.
 
marcogr12
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:26 pm

Why aren't they ordering also the smaller 787-8 for thinner long-haul and the bigger 787-10 for heavy-traffic routes, so that they can interchange types of the whole range depending on demand and season?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
passyflyer
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:28 pm

Well this order makes a lot of sense to. However there is no way LH group as a whole will ever have standardised fleet, their different airlines have very different needs. We should not forget they also have full or partial ownership in companies such as Edelweiss, Eurowings or SunExpress and might be interested in buying Condor. Long term the main question is if the continue to ignore the 330neo. Then they would need way more than 20 787s, especially for their leisure carriers such as the Edelweiss. 20 is just enough to replace the OS longhaul fleet and the old 343s at Swiss. But what about the A333 at Swiss or LH?
 
passyflyer
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:29 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
marcogr12 wrote:
Why aren't they ordering also the smaller 787-8 for thinner long-haul and the bigger 787-10 for heavy-traffic routes, so that they can interchange types of the whole range depending on demand and season?


The 787-8 is a slow seller and too small. The 787-10 lacks flexibility for LH
 
EddieDude
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:31 pm

AECM wrote:
I think that Austrian will get the B789 and will not go back to Airbus WB

Agree with that. OS already had A330s. Everyone thought the OS Boeing widebodies would be retired in order for their widebody fleet to be all-A330. To everyone's surprised, OS decided to structure its long-haul flying around the 763ER and the 77E. I do not see OS receiving any more A330CEOs, new or used.
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gatibosgru
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:32 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
Why aren't they ordering also the smaller 787-8 for thinner long-haul and the bigger 787-10 for heavy-traffic routes, so that they can interchange types of the whole range depending on demand and season?


They have plenty of new-ish A330s to cover a lot of that for now, maybe even a NEO order at some point?. The 789 gives them a lot of flexibility.
@DadCelo
 
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PM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:36 pm

All with RR.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... craft.aspx

Didn't see that coming.
 
Lewton
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:42 pm

Lufthansa likes the number 9!
787-9
A350-900
777-9
 
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PM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:50 pm

Between the EK order (A330 + A350) and the LH order (A350 + 787) RR have already sold more Trents than in the whole of 2018. 214 vs. 220.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:56 pm

Not surprised by the RR order. I'm sure LH would rather have LH Technik doing major engine maintenance whenever possible rather than an outside GE-approved provider.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:08 pm

PM wrote:
All with RR.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... craft.aspx

Didn't see that coming.

Wow. RR for the win!

I just lost a beverage bet with a friend. (I thought GE for the 789). Meh, you don't really lose those kinds of bets.

Lightsaber
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Ronaldo747
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:12 pm

Thinking of with this 787 order LH Group might be the launch customer for the proposed higher MTOW 787-9 variant. Maybe for e.g. FRA-KUL and also FRA-Australia?
 
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par13del
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:19 pm

lightsaber wrote:
PM wrote:
All with RR.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... craft.aspx

Didn't see that coming.

Wow. RR for the win!

I just lost a beverage bet with a friend. (I thought GE for the 789). Meh, you don't really lose those kinds of bets.

Lightsaber

Well if is some consolidation is taking place, the engines are the easiest place to start, GE is not on the A350, so one engine provider for a new fleet of a/c makes sense.
 
smartplane
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:22 pm

fraT wrote:
Press release should be out soon.

LH has ordered 20 B787-9 and 20 additional A350-900, which will be delivered between 2022 and 2027 and replace older 4-engine aircraft.
The decision, which of the LHG airlines will receive these aircraft will come at a later stage.
Six A380 will leave the fleet in 2022 and 2023 and will go back to Airbus.

No surprises. All major airlines have learn't some important lessons over the last 2 years. Future orders will be split across air frame and engine OEM's. Dual fleets - A320/737 and 787/A350 will become the industry standard.

The A380 trade is no surprise. Activating pre-arranged buybacks in stages to avoid Airbus becoming overwhelmed. Wonder when similar 748 buybacks will be activated?
 
rbavfan
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:28 pm

LSZH34 wrote:
LH779 wrote:
LSZH34 wrote:
Regarding LX: The replacement of the A333 is due for 2030+. They need an imminent replacement for the A343 from 2025 onwards. So my guess is they will get A359 to operate it next to the A333. B789 doesn't make sense at the current stage.


They could also replace all 5 A343s and 14 A333s with the 20 789s and use the pretty young A333s to replace older aircraft at LH, OS and SN/EW.


Don't think so. This site always talks about shifting metal within the LH Group yet it has never happened, except from a few 320 from LH to EW, but that's a different story.


Also A340's were shifted as well.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:31 pm

PM wrote:
All with RR.

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press ... craft.aspx

Didn't see that coming.


Great news for RR, and a real boost for the T1000 programme after the massive problems they've had...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
Eyad89
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:32 pm

PM wrote:
Between the EK order (A330 + A350) and the LH order (A350 + 787) RR have already sold more Trents than in the whole of 2018. 214 vs. 220.


So far, Airbus has sold 70 A350s in 3 months(LH + EK+ JX + German government), compared to 40 in all of 2018.
Last edited by Eyad89 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:35 pm

PM wrote:
All with RR.

Didn't see that coming.


I would have been more surprised if they did not choose the Trent 1000 since they already perform MRO for the entire Trent family via N3 Engine Overhaul Services, which is a 50-50 partnership between LH Technik and RR TotalCare and LH already does all their Trent 500/700/900/XWB family maintenance there.
 
Arion640
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:58 pm

LSZH34 wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
So why did the LH press department release renderings of the 787 in each the LH, LX, and OS colors if the thing is ONLY going to LX and OS (according to gospel here at A.net).


Because they haven’t decided which airline to send them too yet.


Yeah, let‘s invest millions and look later what to do with the aircraft. This is just a bad PR statement. They know exactly where to place them.


Ok you are right. But there’s obviously some possibility the decision is not 100% firm.
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vfw614
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:05 pm

Austrian currently has 12 widebodies (?), so 20 B787-9 for them would be much more capacity for the - as Lufthansa's top brass likes to point out - poorest performing member of the Lufthansa family.
 
Fargo
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:25 pm

gatibosgru wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
Why aren't they ordering also the smaller 787-8 for thinner long-haul and the bigger 787-10 for heavy-traffic routes, so that they can interchange types of the whole range depending on demand and season?


They have plenty of new-ish A330s to cover a lot of that for now, maybe even a NEO order at some point?. The 789 gives them a lot of flexibility.


Problem is, a lot of those are either fairly densely configured or premium heavy.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:41 pm

This might be a dumb question, but does the UA joint venture with LH still stand if you are flying with LX or OS?
 
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Peeter
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:42 pm

Lewton wrote:
Lufthansa likes the number 9!
787-9
A350-900
777-9


Nein...
 
pnwtraveler
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:47 pm

Boeing would not take any of the used A380's even if LH wanted more 748i's. This guaranteed follow-on orders with Airbus to get the best price. Those LH 380's I believe are hoped to be sold to larger charter outfits with much denser seating (according to neighbour involved with large fleet and airline insurance). He also told me for the economics to work the A380 has to fly consistently full. When it isn't full it bleeds overhead and costs badly. The costs of the later serving levels is also a major hit for the airlines for the A380. So far the B748i is a bit better, but in overhaul but (big but) it still has 4 engines vs. 2 with the slightly smaller aircraft 787, 350's and 77W. The 779 is projected to be around the 77W or lower despite carrying more passengers so those economics further hurt the two biggest birds.

This speaks to the backing off of A380 by EK by a margin because when times are flush the flights that were losing money were offset by those that made money. EK could afford to go big. Now that things are much tighter the economic reality of the frames come into play. The bottom line is the largest planes are great when they are packed to the gills but unless you can do so, they also lose money much faster and more significantly than the 2 holers. As well the long term maintenance costs are real killers. The 748 will continue on as the largest and best niche cargo plane for a while. We will see though how, when and if a 779F cargo version gets developed if that kills the Queen of Cargo for good. Outsize is only a certain percentage of the market.
 
musman9853
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
columba wrote:
If you read the press release in full:
"With the Airbus A350-900, the Boeing 777-9 and the Boeing 787-9, Lufthansa Group will own the most fuel-efficient long-haul aircraft of their class in terms of kerosene consumption per passenger and 100 kilometers flown."
"In addition to this, Lufthansa Group will be significantly reducing the diversification and complexity of its fleet over the next few years and taking seven aircraft types out of service, which will reduce cost and complexity for maintenance and the supply of replacement parts, among other things." You get the impression that LH plans with a longhaul fleet consisting of only 787,A350 and 777 (7 types replaced A340-300, A340-600, 767-300, 777-200, 747-400 being the 5 most obvious leaves two more types for the future 747-8 and A380 maybe ??? or are smaller Jets like the Embraer included)

LH is returning the A380, so that leaves one more.

Fleet simplification is a good way to go.
779 for the VLA/Combi duty
A359 for longer missions.
789 for shorter (e.g., most TATL, Africa, some Asia) excluding where payload at range of the 779 or A359 come into play.

Lightsaber


Where do you think the 748s fit in? Imo with the 77x and a350 it's hard to justify a quad
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fraT
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:36 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
This might be a dumb question, but does the UA joint venture with LH still stand if you are flying with LX or OS?


Yes, the JV includes the LHG carriers LH,LX,OS,SN as well as UA and AC.
 
musman9853
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:41 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
PM wrote:
Between the EK order (A330 + A350) and the LH order (A350 + 787) RR have already sold more Trents than in the whole of 2018. 214 vs. 220.


So far, Airbus has sold 70 A350s in 3 months(LH + EK+ JX + German government), compared to 40 in all of 2018.


It's been a good year for widebody orders on all fronts.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
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Stitch
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 pm

musman9853 wrote:
Where do you think the 748s fit in? Imo with the 77x and a350 it's hard to justify a quad


The 747-8 would still slot in above a 777-9. I could see the four class 777-9 having around 310 seats (say 8F | 56J | 32W | 214Y) which would put it about 50 below the 747-8.
 
fightforlove
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:04 pm

If none of these 789s end up going to LH, I wonder if we'll still see another 789 order (or A339) to replace some of the A343s on the long-thin routes. I would think the A359 is overkill for several of the A343s routes: FRA - SAN/TPA/NKG/MAA.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:08 pm

columba wrote:
If you read the press release in full:
"With the Airbus A350-900, the Boeing 777-9 and the Boeing 787-9, Lufthansa Group will own the most fuel-efficient long-haul aircraft of their class in terms of kerosene consumption per passenger and 100 kilometers flown."
"In addition to this, Lufthansa Group will be significantly reducing the diversification and complexity of its fleet over the next few years and taking seven aircraft types out of service, which will reduce cost and complexity for maintenance and the supply of replacement parts, among other things."


Seven aircraft types out of service. :scratchchin:

Five are easy: 767-300ER, A340-300, 777-200ER, A340-600, 747-400.

What are the other two? One is probably the cargo MD-11. But the last one is a mystery. Is it the 747-8? Is it the A380 (and there's a plan under wraps to withdraw those not covered in today's announcement)? Is there something I'm forgetting?
 
L0VE2FLY
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
Why does everyone assume the 787 is for everyone but LH? Why are certain forum members so afraid of a 787 in LH colors?


I'm afraid of the 787 in any colors! Boeing took away from me the only thing I love about flying, looking out the window and enjoying the beauty of the world from high altitude, their stupid dimming windows that allow the crew to force close them whenever they like is the worst. So disappointed to see the 787 joining the LH Group and hope they won't send it to my home airport.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 pm

The B787 will be in LH colors. A A339 will never be. Mark my words.
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masA380
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:42 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
The B787 will be in LH colors. A A339 will never be. Mark my words.

Well, no one expected EK to buy A330neo. I’d say never say never. It’s still too early to dismiss.
 
juliuswong
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:13 am

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
The B787 will be in LH colors. A A339 will never be. Mark my words.

A word of advice from a more senior forum member, and I bet others will say the same too.

Never say never. Especially in aviation. Search back a.net forum history how many so-called wildest business idea, fleet purchase which were laughed off by some members actually became reality.

SQ and A330
AA buying Airbus products after AA587
The growth of LCC in short haul and long haul......
These are some of the many topics.

Have a good read.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
Max Q
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:14 am

Interesting that in the last couple of weeks two A380 operators, Etihad and Lufthansa have announced an end to their use or a significant cutback


With the end of production just around the corner I think this is a trend that will accelerate and remaining A380’s will be retired from Airlines around the world much earlier than originally planned
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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flee
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:19 am

masA380 wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
The B787 will be in LH colors. A A339 will never be. Mark my words.

Well, no one expected EK to buy A330neo. I’d say never say never. It’s still too early to dismiss.

Yes, history has shown that strange things do happen and that is not about to change.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:36 am

Max Q wrote:
With the end of production just around the corner I think this is a trend that will accelerate and remaining A380’s will be retired from Airlines around the world much earlier than originally planned


I agree with you that many A380s will see early retirement, but I'd blame the outstanding economics of current-generation aircraft, not the end of production. The A380 has both one-generation-old engines and a significantly overengineered (i.e. heavy) structure. It's big enough with good enough aero that it could probably compete despite one or the other of those disadvantages, but not both.
 
columba
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:02 am

My conclusion: LH plans with a 787-9, A350-900, 777-9X longhaul fleet in the future.

747s will be phased out first the -400, the -8I at a later date. A380s will also see early retirement.

The 787s, A350s and 777X will be switched between groups depending on demand and will like the A320s equipped with a similar cabin. A350s and 777Xs only with LH and LX.
OS, EW, SN 787 only. (The 20 ordered yesterday just being the first batch)

Seven Planes being phased out: A340-300, A340-600, B747-430, B767-300, B777-200, MD11, (then either A380/747-8I or something like Austrian Q400s, or the CRJs within the group)

LH Intercontinental fleet pilots will consists of pilot groups with the following type ratings: A330/A350 and 787/777

Would be interesting to know if LH has more options/purchase rights on the 787/A350 press release does not say anything about that.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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PM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:34 am

Twenty 787s seems a strange number to me. Too many for one airline (OS?) but too few to be distributed across three (OS, LX and LH). I very much expect there to be further orders for the 787 for the Group.
 
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flee
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:02 am

PM wrote:
Twenty 787s seems a strange number to me. Too many for one airline (OS?) but too few to be distributed across three (OS, LX and LH). I very much expect there to be further orders for the 787 for the Group.

I think sanity has finally returned to airplane orders. Not much point in ordering 100 aircraft if most of these are to be delivered in 5 to 6 years' time.

LH is ordering for its medium term replacement and growth needs. When the time comes for more aircraft to be replaced, they will order again. There may be better aircraft available then.
 
AirbusA6
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:14 am

flee wrote:
PM wrote:
Twenty 787s seems a strange number to me. Too many for one airline (OS?) but too few to be distributed across three (OS, LX and LH). I very much expect there to be further orders for the 787 for the Group.

I think sanity has finally returned to airplane orders. Not much point in ordering 100 aircraft if most of these are to be delivered in 5 to 6 years' time.

LH is ordering for its medium term replacement and growth needs. When the time comes for more aircraft to be replaced, they will order again. There may be better aircraft available then.


Ordering smaller numbers at a time keeps Airbus and Boeing honest too.

Indeed are we approaching a time when most major airlines will operate the 787, the A359 and 777 and hence can play and A and B off against each other realistically for further orders, e.g. 787-10 instead of A359 or A350-1000 instead of 779 etc
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trijetsonly
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:19 am

Just now in the press conference:
the 7 leaving fleets will be:
A330-200, A340-300, A340-600, B747-400, B767-300, B777-200, MD-11
Happy Landings
 
columba
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:22 am

LH usually only orders around 20 aircraft at a time and places additional orders later.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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keesje
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:28 am

Are the the 20x 777-9s still confirmed?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
passyflyer
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:35 am

trijetsonly wrote:
Just now in the press conference:
the 7 leaving fleets will be:
A330-200, A340-300, A340-600, B747-400, B767-300, B777-200, MD-11


The A330-200 intrigues me ... are we talking about the 4 aircraft from Brussels Airlines or also SunExpress?

No one else in the LH group operates those, right?
 
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AECM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:44 am

I think that the Lufthansa Group A332 are in Brussels (4) and Eurowings (7)
 
trijetsonly
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:44 am

keesje wrote:
Are the the 20x 777-9s still confirmed?


Quoting CEO Spohr from the ongoing press conference:
34 777-9 will come, initially to FRA.
Happy Landings
 
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AECM
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Re: LH orders 20 B789 and 20 additional A350; Will sell 6 A380s back to Airbus

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:49 am

trijetsonly wrote:
keesje wrote:
Are the the 20x 777-9s still confirmed?


Quoting CEO Spohr from the ongoing press conference:
34 777-9 will come, initially to FRA.


Currently LH has 19 B748 and 14 A388 so these 34 B779 seem to fit as an overall replacement
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