phlswaflyer
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How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:54 pm

How does Boeing successfully navigate its way through this?
 
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Stitch
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Assist with the investigation and identification of the issue and if it is something within their purview, address it.

Same way they survived the 787 grounding and every other incident or accident involving one of their airframes.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Fix the problem and offer a bigger discount pile what tehy did after b787 crisis
Last edited by chunhimlai on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LDRA
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:57 pm

Long term wise, launch NSA
 
LDRA
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:58 pm

Short term, beside technical activities, retire current ceo
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Blame the government shutdown, issue a patch, move on.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:01 pm

Many people in upper management should lose their jobs! It is gross how unapologetic Boeing has been! People should always come before profits!!
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:07 pm

Ask RR how they deal with their cock up?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
SPREE34
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:09 pm

What if it's not the airplane?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
IWMBH
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:10 pm

By solving the problem and sell planes. This is hardly the end of Boeing, don't be dramatic.
 
ukoverlander
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:11 pm

Promise this will be the last time they do plastic surgery on the 737!
 
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cpd
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:12 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
How does Boeing successfully navigate its way through this?


By being responsive, open and accountable. Responsive is working to sort out the issues, open is being transparent about what they are doing so airlines and the general public have confidence in what is happening and accountable is the natural result.

This is a disaster for the Boeing brand which in my view has always been one of those brands with a lot of prestige and a rich heritage. I hope they can turn this around.
 
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cpd
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:13 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
How does Boeing successfully navigate its way through this?


By being responsive, open and accountable. Responsive is working to sort out the issues, open is being transparent about what they are doing so airlines and the general public have confidence in what is happening and accountable is the natural result.

This is a disaster for the Boeing brand which in my view has always been one of those brands with a lot of prestige and a rich heritage. I hope they can turn this around.
 
Antarius
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:14 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Many people in upper management should lose their jobs! It is gross how unapologetic Boeing has been! People should always come before profits!!


You should work for the NTSB. You know, since you have all the answers already.

What exactly should Boeing apologize for given that no one (save for you) knows what happenned yet?
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steveinbc
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:15 pm

It would be interesting to know how the Max's certification process was carried out. Typically, a "family" of aircraft like the 737 would use certification by similarity with other variants. The problem with this approach is that once you've used similarity a number of times in succession then the actual difference between the original design and the current design can be very significant. Additionally, a major U.K. Investigation into a Nimrod crash demonstrated that a cosy relationship between a major aircraft producer and the regulator was a significant contributor to the accident. Anyhow, this is only food for thought but for Boeing to roll out two major "groundbreaking" aircraft..Max and 787 ...and have them both grounded for months should mean we look more broadly than just a straightforward technical solution.
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WIederling
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:16 pm

cpd wrote:
phlswaflyer wrote:
How does Boeing successfully navigate its way through this?


By being responsive, open and accountable. Responsive is working to sort out the issues, open is being transparent about what they are doing so airlines and the general public have confidence in what is happening and accountable is the natural result.


That advice afaics builds on concepts that are inaccessible to the Boeing hive mind. Just read some posters here.
They are comparable to that African tribe where every death is a murder.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WeatherPilot
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:17 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Blame the government shutdown...


Are you serious or are you just being facetious?
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:17 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
Blame the government shutdown, issue a patch, move on.

Government shut down isn't at fault for a bad plane
 
WIederling
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:18 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
Blame the government shutdown...


Are you serious or are you just being facetious?


Wait for what happens :-)

His intent might have been facetious ...the outcome ? :-)))))))))
Murphy is an optimist
 
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smittythepirate
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:18 pm

How do they survive this? Kind of drastic considering they sell 4 other models on the commercial side
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MKIAZ
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:19 pm

A third AOA sensor, major review of MCAS code, pilot/copilot AOA disagree warnings, and better training on both disabling MCAS and landing/flying with MCAS disabled.
 
DoctorVenkman
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:20 pm

Obviously there will be some short term pain, but long term this won't have much of an impact on Boeing. They have over $7B in cash on hand and $100B in assets. They are still generating positive cash flow from the delivery of the rest of their commercial and military orders. This is not going to sink them.

Long term the biggest impact I could see is if there's an investigation into the cozy relationship between the FAA and Boeing. There's a certain amount of regulatory capture that works in Boeing's favor that I could see going away after this incident exposed it quite publicly. Their certification costs could go up and they might have to give more concessions to foreign regulatory bodies that won't just follow the FAA anymore.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:28 pm

LDRA wrote:
Short term, beside technical activities, retire current ceo


I'm kind of wondering if their current CEO is responsible for the poor handling of the public outcry. He has been responsible for some of the more obscenely cut throat stuff they've done in recent history, like the cseries thing when Delta signed a deal with Bombardier.
 
sasd209
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:31 pm

smittythepirate wrote:
How do they survive this? Kind of drastic considering they sell 4 other models on the commercial side



Come now, surely it is the end of the Company?!?
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:35 pm

There's no alternative to Boeing unless airlines want to wait 5-10 years to receive an A320 if they place an order today. Any costs associated with the 737 MAX will likely be a drop out of Boeing's bucket of cash. Boeing's stock price actually WENT UP after the US announce the fleet grounding this afternoon.
Last edited by LockheedBBD on Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:37 pm

By launching the goddammed 797 like they should have three years ago.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:39 pm

Stitch wrote:
Assist with the investigation and identification of the issue and if it is something within their purview, address it.

Same way they survived the 787 grounding and every other incident or accident involving one of their airframes.


Exactly. It will hurt Boeing's bottom line and Boeing will survive. Most important to identify the problem and if there is a problem with the aircraft, solve it a.s.a.p.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:40 pm

MKIAZ wrote:
A third AOA sensor, major review of MCAS code, pilot/copilot AOA disagree warnings, and better training on both disabling MCAS and landing/flying with MCAS disabled.


Hey now, logic and reason has no place in this thread!
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
many321
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:42 pm

Launch the 797 and the NSA and be done with it.
 
YouGeeElWhy
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:44 pm

No doubt they need to fix the problem ASAP, but a Takata style investigation needs to happen. This feels like criminal negligence.
 
ytz
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:53 pm

SPREE34 wrote:
What if it's not the airplane?


Two crews both report problems with their data (airspeed and altitude). And then both don't just pancake, but nosedive in at high speed, just a few minutes later.

But sure, it's not the airplane./s

If it isn't, Boeing can get on with giving english lessons to foreign crews so they can read the instruments better.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:53 pm

Jouhou wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Short term, beside technical activities, retire current ceo


I'm kind of wondering if their current CEO is responsible for the poor handling of the public outcry. He has been responsible for some of the more obscenely cut throat stuff they've done in recent history, like the cseries thing when Delta signed a deal with Bombardier.


What are you talking about? Muilenburg is an absolute angel for Boeing investors (as noted by many A.netters in the 737 MAX grounding thread) : https://i.postimg.cc/cLrHDX5S/angel.jpg
 
ytz
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:56 pm

I think Boeing will come out of this a better company.

Short-term. They'll figure out what the issues are with the MAX. Be they technical, human factors, etc.

Long-term. They'll need to rethink whether underinvesting in product development got them into the position where they had to rush the MAX and maybe made compromises they weren't 100% comfortable with.
 
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DL717
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:58 pm

phlswaflyer wrote:
How does Boeing successfully navigate its way through this?


Simple. Fix the issue that needs to be fixed.

SPREE34 wrote:
What if it's not the airplane?


Fair point.

Bigger question, why didn’t this issue reveal itself during cert flights? If it did, why wasn’t it addressed.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Antarius
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:01 pm

YouGeeElWhy wrote:
No doubt they need to fix the problem ASAP, but a Takata style investigation needs to happen. This feels like criminal negligence.


Two incidents that haven't finished investigation. Or gotten even close.

If Boeing knew there was a problem and covered it up, bury them. If it happened to be unrelated and circumstance, then this will be for naught. But acting like this is already negligence when no one knows squat is problematic. Its fear mongering at its worst.
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zhiao
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:02 pm

This is nothing. Boeing can continue by destroying Airbus in widebody sales. Even LH just ordered 787s today! Lol.

The software fix will be in.
 
rayfound
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:02 pm

The answer to the question depends entirely on the contributing factors to this crash.
 
Antarius
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 pm

rayfound wrote:
The answer to the question depends entirely on the contributing factors to this crash.


/thread
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SPREE34
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:08 pm

zhiao wrote:
This is nothing. Boeing can continue by destroying Airbus in widebody sales. Even LH just ordered 787s today! Lol.

The software fix will be in.


And 20 more A350s, but hey, whatever makes you feel good.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
SPREE34
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:10 pm

DL717 wrote:
Bigger question, why didn’t this issue reveal itself during cert flights? If it did, why wasn’t it addressed.


Indeed. That could be an expensive question as well. I'd guess all flight test data will be reviewd shortly, and not by the company alone.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ytz
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:11 pm

DoctorVenkman wrote:
Long term the biggest impact I could see is if there's an investigation into the cozy relationship between the FAA and Boeing. There's a certain amount of regulatory capture that works in Boeing's favor that I could see going away after this incident exposed it quite publicly. Their certification costs could go up and they might have to give more concessions to foreign regulatory bodies that won't just follow the FAA anymore.


More than Boeing, the FAA deserves some serious scrutiny. Given some of the issues reported by American crews alone, you really have to wonder how they certified this aircraft. The language in some of these reports is scathing:

"The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"

"... one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient"

Source: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw

The FAA's certification process needs to be audited. There's no way crews should be having that kind of reaction to a new airplane.
 
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DL717
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:17 pm

ytz wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
Long term the biggest impact I could see is if there's an investigation into the cozy relationship between the FAA and Boeing. There's a certain amount of regulatory capture that works in Boeing's favor that I could see going away after this incident exposed it quite publicly. Their certification costs could go up and they might have to give more concessions to foreign regulatory bodies that won't just follow the FAA anymore.


More than Boeing, the FAA deserves some serious scrutiny. Given some of the issues reported by American crews alone, you really have to wonder how they certified this aircraft. The language in some of these reports is scathing:

"The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"

"... one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient"

Source: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... afety-flaw

The FAA's certification process needs to be audited. There's no way crews should be having that kind of reaction to a new airplane.


The TERPS guy I coordinated with at the FAA for over 20 years walked out the door the same week I did. This is going on throughout the industry right now in all facets, pilot shortages aren’t the only challenge facing aviation today. Experience matters and automation isn’t the end all. You still have to operate, certify and coordinate machines and the components required for their operations. It extends from airports all the way up the food chain.
Last edited by DL717 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jamie514
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:18 pm

zhiao wrote:
This is nothing. Boeing can continue by destroying Airbus in widebody sales. Even LH just ordered 787s today! Lol.

The software fix will be in.


1. Great. Also hardly surprising when LH group already flew variants of all Boeing widebodies in 763, 744, 772, 773 and 748.

and, more important to your point about sales dominance

2. The order carries an EQUAL NUMBER of A350.
 
Busyboy2
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:20 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Many people in upper management should lose their jobs! It is gross how unapologetic Boeing has been! People should always come before profits!!


Drunk posting I see!
 
dampfnudel
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Any chance WN will be compelled to buy the NEO if the worst-case scenario with the MAX comes to pass?
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F9Animal
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:25 pm

Outsource QA, and flight testing teams to the cheapest vendor. Outsource engineers. Move more production to China. Squeeze those record profits even more.
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LDRA
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:27 pm

Jouhou wrote:
LDRA wrote:
Short term, beside technical activities, retire current ceo


I'm kind of wondering if their current CEO is responsible for the poor handling of the public outcry. He has been responsible for some of the more obscenely cut throat stuff they've done in recent history, like the cseries thing when Delta signed a deal with Bombardier.

It is not just public relationship. It is fundamentally lack of safety culture at top level

Boeing CEO called Trump requesting not to ground MAX the night before grounding issued

Also look at the Boeing press release in response to preliminary report on JT610. Blame everything on JT, MCAS is not even mentioned in the press release! Speak volume to the mindset at top!
 
aaexecplat
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:30 pm

Even if this turns out to be a case of corporate gross negligence or malfeasance, Boeing will do just fine. They get 25% of their revenue from the US tax payer and that is not going to change anytime soon. They also sell several other models of airplanes that have juicy margins at this point and are in demand. They may have a few lean years ahead in a worst case scenario, but there is no way the company will cease to exist as we know it. The real world is usually far more rational than the news feed, especially in the long run.
Last edited by aaexecplat on Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:30 pm

I heard the center of gravity had something to do with incident. Auto pilot I hear is a problem sounds like the plane trying to over power humans.
 
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: How does Boeing "survive" this crisis?

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:32 pm

Hand over the keys to the castle to the good people in Toulouse and then bow down and begin to kiss their feet, crying, "I am defeated. The victory is yours."

In all seriousness:

Find and fix the problem.
Offer a crap ton of payments and discounts.
Pay families for their losses without any complaining.
Launch NMA to squeeze Airbus on the high end of A32X.
Strengthen their partnership with Embraer to squeeze the A22X and A32X on the low end.
Launch NSA within five years of NMA.
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