Thunderbolt500
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Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:56 pm

Just saw a post about LH And BA going to to Denver, so my question is why can’t msp get any of these flights. The area has around 3.5 million people.
 
fsafsx
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:02 pm

MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:03 pm

Delta fortress hub, BA dropped DTW as NWA’s link with KLM drastically altered their fortunes in market.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:10 pm

Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.


If that was the case, those airlines would be there now. A 747-8 is way too much plane, especially in the front of the bus. There's likely no market for international F in Minneapolis.
 
emuwarveteran
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:27 pm

when it comes to LH a B748 is too big for MSP. an A333 or something would be better
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Fuling
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:45 pm

Yields are extremely high, huge O&D demand. LH and BA are just scared to 'make' so much money. :duck:
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:56 pm

The fortress SkyTeam hub keeps LH and BA away, unfortunately. DL doesn't even have to pick up the slack with no FRA flight and small gauge to LHR. The riches of a captive audience.
 
748iDEN
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:04 pm

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.


Given that DEN doesn't even see a 748 other than random subs, MSP will not be getting a 747. Maybe 3 or 4x per week on a BA 789 might be possible but even that is stretching it.
 
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DL717
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:11 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Just saw a post about LH And BA going to to Denver, so my question is why can’t msp get any of these flights. The area has around 3.5 million people.


The almighty widget of course, plus BA has ORD. LH to Denver is a no brainer, Star Alliance. BA to DEN, different market dynamic. Nearest hub with regional feed for One World is DFW or LAX.
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stylo777
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:29 am

do you guys have any validating data such as average yields, PDEW, O&D's, business ties etc. between MSP and LON and FRA (or other European cities for that matter)?
there are surely reasons why BA with it's extensive US network isn't flying there (yet); even more so for LH with a slightly smaller US coverage. and, I wouldn't just break it down to the alliance since LH especially is serving both DL fortress hubs DTW and ATL on daily basis.

on the other hand, I pretty sure that both BA and LH are tunneling MSP-bound traffic through via ORD with AA and UA respectively.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:01 am

As stated above, MSP is an established fortress hub for SkyTeam, who have flights to not one but two European hubs, AMS and CDG. Both London and Frankfurt would have to depend on local traffic on their end to drive traffic to MSP. Delta can make a daily LHR rotation work, primarily because they can offer connections at MSP in addition to the local demand.

Frankfurt is a different matter. There's enough traffic on the Frankfurt end to warrant an LH flight to Detroit, and enough demand on the U.S. end to have Delta fly the route, also with connections possible. However, this would indicate a relatively small amount of demand to Frankfurt from the MSP area and cities connected only to MSP and not DTW.

When the bean counters find enough demand for MSP to FRA, Delta will fly it. And if the demand arises in Germany to MSP, Lufthansa will fly it.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:22 am

BA looked at MSP in the mid-1990s very closely, and even based the US division of its Executive Club loyalty program in the twin cities. If BA saw material opportunity to fly the route now, they would. Same goes for LH. Both have the right aircraft for LHR and FRA. BA could use the 787-8/9 or the 777-200ER and LH could fly the A330 or A350.
 
klm617
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:29 am

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.



DTW is the largest market without BA service.
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NateGreat
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 am

Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:45 am

There’s a lot of misinformation in this thread. For one, Condor already serves MSP-FRA 2-4 times weekly during the summer, that covers the 50ish PDEW for the route. MSP-LHR is around 130 PDEW, which is covered well by DL’s daily flight. Additionally, MSP is well served to Europe, with 4 daily flights to AMS during the summer between DL and KL, twice daily service to CDG during the summer on DL and AF, as well as twice daily service to KEF on both FI and DL during the summer, 5x weekly on Aer Lingus starting this summer and the aforementioned Condor service to FRA. BA could certainly supplement DL’s MSP flight given the demand, although with slots at LHR BA obviously has bigger fish to fry. DL tried FCO a few years ago which is a decent sized market during the summer, but the yields weren’t there to sustain the service. With DUB now coming, FCO and MUC are the next largest unserved markets to Europe.

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DENflyer10
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:59 am

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Just saw a post about LH And BA going to to Denver, so my question is why can’t msp get any of these flights. The area has around 3.5 million people.


What do you mean "going to Denver"? They have been in Denver and for quite a while now.
 
Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:02 am

NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


I think that we're all aware of that fact!

And to be pedantic Northwest (Orient) previously flew the route having originally started MSP-LGW in May 1980 daily with a B747, an additional daily flight was added in 1983, Northwest eventually moved their MSP flight from LGW to LHR in March 2008 by that time it was flown by the A330.
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bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:06 am

NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


So if Delta can only justify a single daily 767 with both local traffic and hub feed, why would anyone think that BA could make this route work?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:14 am

SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of misinformation in this thread. For one, Condor already serves MSP-FRA 2-4 times weekly during the summer, that covers the 50ish PDEW for the route. MSP-LHR is around 130 PDEW, which is covered well by DL’s daily flight. Additionally, MSP is well served to Europe, with 4 daily flights to AMS during the summer between DL and KL, twice daily service to CDG during the summer on DL and AF, as well as twice daily service to KEF on both FI and DL during the summer, 5x weekly on Aer Lingus starting this summer and the aforementioned Condor service to FRA. BA could certainly supplement DL’s MSP flight given the demand, although with slots at LHR BA obviously has bigger fish to fry. DL tried FCO a few years ago which is a decent sized market during the summer, but the yields weren’t there to sustain the service. With DUB now coming, FCO and MUC are the next largest unserved markets to Europe.


I think the real misinformation is bringing in red herrings such as DE, or saying it's "well served" to Europe (which it isn't, unless you're flying to AMS, which not many are). The question is why there's no LH or BA, considering it's one of the largest unserved U.S. metros for either carrier. The answer is plainly obvious and evidenced at other particular cities, but some people have the darndest time saying it. I wonder why...

P.S. 130 PDEW plus a well-paced connecting hub with a 763 is extremely advantageous for the airline. What a gold mine.
 
NTLDaz
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:20 am

It's a 2 way street. What demand is there from London to MSP ? If relying on O and D would there be sufficient reason for enough people to want / need to visit MSP ?
 
Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:21 am

bagoldex wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


So if Delta can only justify a single daily 767 with both local traffic and hub feed, why would anyone think that BA could make this route work?


Exactly especially considering that British Airways over the last few years have added several new secondary cities in the USA to their network which includes the following below, if British Airways thought that they could make money from operating LHR to MSP they would have announced it many years ago especially in the eighties when these secondary cities were gaining access to London albeit to LGW because of Bermuda II.

The last few years we've seen British Airways add,

Austin
Charleston
Ft Lauderdale
Nashville
New Orleans
Oakland (dropped)
Pittsburgh
San Jose

Obviously no Minneapolis and I can't see it being added anytime soon, Delta will always be the main player here in a similar way to how it is with SLC and PDX to LHR.
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lavalampluva
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:50 am

emuwarveteran wrote:
when it comes to LH a B748 is too big for MSP. an A333 or something would be better

LH would be better. DE was too unstable last summer.
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N292UX
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:14 am

Condor flies there. That's an LH branch. SkyTeam has a massive monopoly for international flying out of MSP, so we'll see if BA or LH ever enter the market. It's possible.
 
2travel2know2
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:34 am

One of the bigger issues with no BA to MSP (and to DTW) is getting the LHR slots for those flights.
Maybe there are slots but none really suitable for an attractive schedule; Who would like a MSP/DTW 2230h arrival and 0030h departure to LHR?
Yes, there`s BA at LGW, but unless BA wants to go to airfare war, both MSP and DTW aren´t the kind of destinations suitable for BA LGW service, specially if the other airline flying MSP/DTW - LON flies to LHR.
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intotheair
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:00 am

DL717 wrote:
Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Just saw a post about LH And BA going to to Denver, so my question is why can’t msp get any of these flights. The area has around 3.5 million people.


The almighty widget of course, plus BA has ORD. LH to Denver is a no brainer, Star Alliance. BA to DEN, different market dynamic. Nearest hub with regional feed for One World is DFW or LAX.


Yes. BA started DEN-LON after CO pulled out, and UA has since never really been able to do anything more than seasonal (though that’s also a result of the LHR slot situation.) BA has established a pretty good business on DEN-LHR. Perhaps our Twin Cities friends can weigh in, though I have a hunch that DL probably established itself on MSP-LON before BA would have ever had the chance to try it.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:10 am

N292UX wrote:
Condor flies there. That's an LH branch. SkyTeam has a massive monopoly for international flying out of MSP, so we'll see if BA or LH ever enter the market. It's possible.


Condor isn't a branch of Lufthansa. It's been owned by the Thomas Cook group for some time now.

Nothing else to add here. MSP has plenty of Europe service for the size of the market. Delta, Skyteam, yadayadaya...
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:14 am

Cunard wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


So if Delta can only justify a single daily 767 with both local traffic and hub feed, why would anyone think that BA could make this route work?


Exactly especially considering that British Airways over the last few years have added several new secondary cities in the USA to their network which includes the following below, if British Airways thought that they could make money from operating LHR to MSP they would have announced it many years ago especially in the eighties when these secondary cities were gaining access to London albeit to LGW because of Bermuda II.

The last few years we've seen British Airways add,

Austin
Charleston
Ft Lauderdale
Nashville
New Orleans
Oakland (dropped)
Pittsburgh
San Jose

Obviously no Minneapolis and I can't see it being added anytime soon, Delta will always be the main player here in a similar way to how it is with SLC and PDX to LHR.


What you say is correct for SLC and MSP since they are large DL hubs, but I don’t see how DL will always be the main player on PDX-LHR. DL doesn’t have a hub in PDX. In fact, BA has the AS partnership so seems like they’d almost have the advantage. Given the number of new BA cities listed above, I’m really surprised they haven’t tried PDX.
 
EK770
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:04 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
One of the bigger issues with no BA to MSP (and to DTW) is getting the LHR slots for those flights.
Maybe there are slots but none really suitable for an attractive schedule; Who would like a MSP/DTW 2230h arrival and 0030h departure to LHR?
Yes, there`s BA at LGW, but unless BA wants to go to airfare war, both MSP and DTW aren´t the kind of destinations suitable for BA LGW service, specially if the other airline flying MSP/DTW - LON flies to LHR.


BA would have no problem whatsoever finding slots at LHR for this if they deem the market worthwhile. They have plenty of scope to consolidate short haul flights to free up slots for long haul.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:11 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

Frankfurt is a different matter. There's enough traffic on the Frankfurt end to warrant an LH flight to Detroit, and enough demand on the U.S. end to have Delta fly the route, also with connections possible. However, this would indicate a relatively small amount of demand to Frankfurt from the MSP area and cities connected only to MSP and not DTW.


Das Auto! Look at the size of the German auto and supplier market. Look at the concentration of the auto industry in Detroit - including NA HQs of big German suppliers Robert Bosch (#1 worldwide), Continental (#4), and ZF (#5). Lots of auto parts are specific to a vehicle or platform - parts customization that generates a lot of travel. That's how both DL and LH can support FRA-DTW. MSP doesn't have any of that.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:42 pm

As has been mentioned, DL hub so connections can be made in AMS and CDG.
Plus, Icelandair (almost year-round) and Aer Lingus (starts July) connections.
 
Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:48 pm

gunsontheroof wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Condor flies there. That's an LH branch. SkyTeam has a massive monopoly for international flying out of MSP, so we'll see if BA or LH ever enter the market. It's possible.


Condor isn't a branch of Lufthansa. It's been owned by the Thomas Cook group for some time now.

Nothing else to add here. MSP has plenty of Europe service for the size of the market. Delta, Skyteam, yadayadaya...


Exactly it does amaze me every time that's brought up here on a.net

It's 16 years ago this year that Lufthansa sold Condor to the Thomas Cook Group :-)

I wonder how many more years it will take for people to finally realise that there is no affiliation between Condor and the Lufthansa Group :-)
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fsafsx
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.



DTW is the largest market without BA service.
MSP to LHR and MSP to FRA are larger I'm not sure what your talking about.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 pm

fsafsx wrote:
klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.



DTW is the largest market without BA service.
MSP to LHR and MSP to FRA are larger I'm not sure what your talking about.


Why are you making stuff up? DTW to FRA is a LOT larger than MSP to FRA.
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bhxalex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:39 pm

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.


A daily 747-8 for a market which has no existing service from DL who operate a huge hub at MSP and essentially have the MSP-Europe market to themselves?? Still a few weeks off for April fools day.


Condor serve the market adequately with a few weekly seasonal 763 flights.

A seasonal Delta 763 might work, but Frankfurt is not a leisure destination, even in summer and the business ties between the two cities pale in comparison to other Frankfurt- US city pairs.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:44 pm

Complete lack of demand? I can't imagine MSP being a large O&D market for Europe. The fact that DL only puts a measly 763 on MSP-LHR, and nothing to either FRA or MUC despite its huge hub and feed at MSP should tell you everything you need to know.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:47 pm

airbazar wrote:
Complete lack of demand? I can't imagine MSP being a large O&D market for Europe. The fact that DL only puts a measly 763 on MSP-LHR, and nothing to either FRA or MUC despite its huge hub and feed at MSP should tell you everything you need to know.


This.
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bhxalex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:48 pm

fsafsx wrote:
klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.



DTW is the largest market without BA service.
MSP to LHR and MSP to FRA are larger I'm not sure what your talking about.


Figures to back this up? Very sceptical about this statement, given the auto industry connections between DTW and Germany and to a lesser extent the UK.

As far as I know on DL, Detroit runs up to 2x daily from LHR at it's peak, MSP isnt scheduled to go above 1x daily. That should explain the market dynamics.
 
Pbb152
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:57 pm

fsafsx wrote:
klm617 wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.



DTW is the largest market without BA service.
MSP to LHR and MSP to FRA are larger I'm not sure what your talking about.


Care to back up your assertions with facts? And honestly, if LH were to theoretically start service to MSP, do you truly believe it would be with a 748? Cmon man.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:03 pm

Not enough demand imo. Even Delta only flies a 767 to LHR.
 
klm617
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:48 pm

Two things that stand out here MSP can not maintain any year round Europe service outside of skyteam and secondly we hear about what a business machine Minneapolis is but yet can not maintain a daily year round nonstop to one of Europe's largest business centers two very important fact to keep in mind.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
rainaviation2
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:51 pm

bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.


If that was the case, those airlines would be there now. A 747-8 is way too much plane, especially in the front of the bus. There's likely no market for international F in Minneapolis.


What do you mean there is no market for international F in MSP? Do you know the number of business travelers that MSP gets from companies like Medtronic, Cargill, Boston Scientific, and 3M?

Business is the reason MSP is getting service to DUB, ICN, and MEX.
 
rainaviation2
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:52 pm

bagoldex wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


So if Delta can only justify a single daily 767 with both local traffic and hub feed, why would anyone think that BA could make this route work?


More connecting opportunities in Europe VIA LHR on BA.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:55 pm

klm617 wrote:
Two things that stand out here MSP can not maintain any year round Europe service outside of skyteam and secondly we hear about what a business machine Minneapolis is but yet can not maintain a daily year round nonstop to one of Europe's largest business centers two very important fact to keep in mind.


Is there data to back up business travel growth? I know consultants travel a ton, but even large companies are cutting back because of expense and technology can go a long way to avoiding travel for meetings.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 pm

rainaviation2 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them. I think MSP is the largest airport right now with no service on Lufthansa or British Airways. There is also big German and British communities along with strong businesses that would be delighted to use these flights. A daily 747-8 for Lufthansa and daily 777-200ER will do for British Airways.


If that was the case, those airlines would be there now. A 747-8 is way too much plane, especially in the front of the bus. There's likely no market for international F in Minneapolis.


What do you mean there is no market for international F in MSP? Do you know the number of business travelers that MSP gets from companies like Medtronic, Cargill, Boston Scientific, and 3M?

Business is the reason MSP is getting service to DUB, ICN, and MEX.


Only a tiny percentage of business travelers fly in paid F and that is probably mostly concentrated in places like New York and LA and to a lesser degree Chicago, Miami, San Francisco and DC. Not that many are even allowed to book in J anymore.

rainaviation2 wrote:
More connecting opportunities in Europe VIA LHR on BA.


Perhaps. BA seems content letting Delta/Skyteam carry all of the connecting traffic through their hubs though so that probably means either that the passenger numbers are relatively small or that it's not a particularly lucrative passenger composition, ie heavily skewed towards low-fare leisure travelers.
 
rainaviation2
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:44 pm

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 pm

bagoldex wrote:

Only a tiny percentage of business travelers fly in paid F and that is probably mostly concentrated in places like New York and LA and to a lesser degree Chicago, Miami, San Francisco and DC. Not that many are even allowed to book in J anymore.


Perhaps. BA seems content letting Delta/Skyteam carry all of the connecting traffic through their hubs though so that probably means either that the passenger numbers are relatively small or that it's not a particularly lucrative passenger composition, ie heavily skewed towards low-fare leisure travelers.


I guess. The 748 is way to large for MSP, I do agree with that. I could see BA or LH using the 787 into MSP on a 4 times weekly basis.
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:32 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Two things that stand out here MSP can not maintain any year round Europe service outside of skyteam and secondly we hear about what a business machine Minneapolis is but yet can not maintain a daily year round nonstop to one of Europe's largest business centers two very important fact to keep in mind.


Is there data to back up business travel growth? I know consultants travel a ton, but even large companies are cutting back because of expense and technology can go a long way to avoiding travel for meetings.


That's what everyone on here claims on a.net. That's why ICN, PVG and DUB all got added because MSP is the new powerhouse of business travel growth.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:35 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Two things that stand out here MSP can not maintain any year round Europe service outside of skyteam and secondly we hear about what a business machine Minneapolis is but yet can not maintain a daily year round nonstop to one of Europe's largest business centers two very important fact to keep in mind.


Is there data to back up business travel growth? I know consultants travel a ton, but even large companies are cutting back because of expense and technology can go a long way to avoiding travel for meetings.


LOL I just seen this here's your proof. If it posted on a.net it's fact. Here is all the data you need


"What do you mean there is no market for international F in MSP? Do you know the number of business travelers that MSP gets from companies like Medtronic, Cargill, Boston Scientific, and 3M?

Business is the reason MSP is getting service to DUB, ICN, and MEX."
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:08 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
SESGDL wrote:
There’s a lot of misinformation in this thread. For one, Condor already serves MSP-FRA 2-4 times weekly during the summer, that covers the 50ish PDEW for the route. MSP-LHR is around 130 PDEW, which is covered well by DL’s daily flight. Additionally, MSP is well served to Europe, with 4 daily flights to AMS during the summer between DL and KL, twice daily service to CDG during the summer on DL and AF, as well as twice daily service to KEF on both FI and DL during the summer, 5x weekly on Aer Lingus starting this summer and the aforementioned Condor service to FRA. BA could certainly supplement DL’s MSP flight given the demand, although with slots at LHR BA obviously has bigger fish to fry. DL tried FCO a few years ago which is a decent sized market during the summer, but the yields weren’t there to sustain the service. With DUB now coming, FCO and MUC are the next largest unserved markets to Europe.


I think the real misinformation is bringing in red herrings such as DE, or saying it's "well served" to Europe (which it isn't, unless you're flying to AMS, which not many are). The question is why there's no LH or BA, considering it's one of the largest unserved U.S. metros for either carrier. The answer is plainly obvious and evidenced at other particular cities, but some people have the darndest time saying it. I wonder why...

P.S. 130 PDEW plus a well-paced connecting hub with a 763 is extremely advantageous for the airline. What a gold mine.


P.S.S. Shame on DL for flying the right-sized aircraft that makes a profit. And shame on DL for having a profit generating hub and international route to LHR. Bad DL, bad DL.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 678
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:20 pm

Cunard wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Condor flies there. That's an LH branch. SkyTeam has a massive monopoly for international flying out of MSP, so we'll see if BA or LH ever enter the market. It's possible.


Condor isn't a branch of Lufthansa. It's been owned by the Thomas Cook group for some time now.

Nothing else to add here. MSP has plenty of Europe service for the size of the market. Delta, Skyteam, yadayadaya...


Exactly it does amaze me every time that's brought up here on a.net

It's 16 years ago this year that Lufthansa sold Condor to the Thomas Cook Group :-)

I wonder how many more years it will take for people to finally realise that there is no affiliation between Condor and the Lufthansa Group :-)


As long as one can book a ticket on a Condor flight via the Lufthansa website, no one is truly going to believe that they are completely separate entities.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:27 pm

I'm guessing that MSP-Europe traffic is more skewed towards U.S. point of sale than many other destinations served by BA and LH. European tourists favor the coastal cities, beaches, national parks, etc when visiting the U.S. That gives DL and partners an advantage in the MSP market due to the huge hub and FF base on the U.S. end.

Also, it probably doesn't help that MSP-Europe is quite seasonal. During the winter, I'm sure there's very little inbound non-business traffic from Europe, and everyone from the U.S. side wants to get away to Arizona, Florida, the Caribbean, Mexico, or Hawai'i. For a year-round TATL flight to work from MSP, it needs a significant business component. FRA doesn't seem to have the ties to MSP to sustain that year-round demand, and LHR is covered well enough by DL that BA hasn't jumped.
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