FSDan
Posts: 2474
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:31 pm

fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them.
...
There is also big German and British communities


Really? I'd be interested to hear the size of the German-born and UK-born populations of the Cities... You can't put too much weight on German or British ancestry, because that doesn't generate anywhere near the amount of travel that expat communities who still have close relatives abroad do. Hence NW's spectacular failure on MSP-OSL back in the day despite the huge number of people of Scandinavian descent in the Upper Midwest.
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aeropix
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:19 pm

Cunard wrote:
I wonder how many more years it will take for people to finally realise that there is no affiliation between Condor and the Lufthansa Group :-)


Probably quite a few (years). For example, I just learned that fact from this thread. Would've been pleasant to learn the fact without the snark.
 
Freshside3
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:48 pm

FSDan wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them.
...
There is also big German and British communities


Really? I'd be interested to hear the size of the German-born and UK-born populations of the Cities... You can't put too much weight on German or British ancestry, because that doesn't generate anywhere near the amount of travel that expat communities who still have close relatives abroad do. Hence NW's spectacular failure on MSP-OSL back in the day despite the huge number of people of Scandinavian descent in the Upper Midwest.

They also had DC-10s on MSP-OSL which were too old and had chronic mechanical issues. I think it would work now, with a Dreamliner, and the lack of SK from SEA.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm

FSDan wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them.
...
There is also big German and British communities


Really? I'd be interested to hear the size of the German-born and UK-born populations of the Cities... You can't put too much weight on German or British ancestry, because that doesn't generate anywhere near the amount of travel that expat communities who still have close relatives abroad do. Hence NW's spectacular failure on MSP-OSL back in the day despite the huge number of people of Scandinavian descent in the Upper Midwest.


Minneapolis doesnt have a large foreign born community of either:

United Kingdom
New York: 68967
Los Angeles: 43629
San Francisco: 25,374
Houston: 20,954
Washington DC: 19247
Boston: 19159
Miami: 18819
Chicago: 16488
Philadelphia: 14783
Atlanta: 14161
San Diego: 13478
Dallas: 13389
Tampa: 13114
Seattle: 13026
Phoenix: 11569

Germany
New York: 49782
Los Angeles: 22796
Chicago: 19619
Washington DC: 15924
San Francisco: 14824
Miami: 13302
Seattle: 11373
Detroit: 10400
Philadelphia: 9939
Atlanta: 9408
Phoenix: 8730
Tampa: 8556
Dallas: 7867
Houston: 7616
San Diego: 7096
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btbx11
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:26 pm

bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.


No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.
 
FSDan
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:01 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
fsafsx wrote:
MSP can support both of them.
...
There is also big German and British communities


Really? I'd be interested to hear the size of the German-born and UK-born populations of the Cities... You can't put too much weight on German or British ancestry, because that doesn't generate anywhere near the amount of travel that expat communities who still have close relatives abroad do. Hence NW's spectacular failure on MSP-OSL back in the day despite the huge number of people of Scandinavian descent in the Upper Midwest.


Minneapolis doesnt have a large foreign born community of either:

United Kingdom
New York: 68967
Los Angeles: 43629
San Francisco: 25,374
Houston: 20,954
Washington DC: 19247
Boston: 19159
Miami: 18819
Chicago: 16488
Philadelphia: 14783
Atlanta: 14161
San Diego: 13478
Dallas: 13389
Tampa: 13114
Seattle: 13026
Phoenix: 11569

Germany
New York: 49782
Los Angeles: 22796
Chicago: 19619
Washington DC: 15924
San Francisco: 14824
Miami: 13302
Seattle: 11373
Detroit: 10400
Philadelphia: 9939
Atlanta: 9408
Phoenix: 8730
Tampa: 8556
Dallas: 7867
Houston: 7616
San Diego: 7096


Thanks for the data! That's pretty much what I expected, and can possibly help explain why similarly sized metro areas like SEA, SAN, and TPA do have service from BA and LH while MSP does not.
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Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:13 pm

aeropix wrote:
Cunard wrote:
I wonder how many more years it will take for people to finally realise that there is no affiliation between Condor and the Lufthansa Group :-)


Probably quite a few (years). For example, I just learned that fact from this thread. Would've been pleasant to learn the fact without the snark.


It's been 16 years, two years before you joined a.net that long ago 'snark' :-)
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bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:18 pm

btbx11 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.


No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.


Even in that context it still offers at least twenty times as many daily intercontinental flights as Phoenix.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:42 pm

bagoldex wrote:
btbx11 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.


No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.


Even in that context it still offers at least twenty times as many daily intercontinental flights as Phoenix.


Population doesn’t equal demand. SF is full of international business and tourism demand. PHX isn’t.
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SurlyBonds
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:01 am

bagoldex wrote:
Not that many are even allowed to book in J anymore.


Any real data to this effect? In my experience, it's still essentially an industry standard on flights of longer than about four hours.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:17 am

BA services to MSP could depend on the success of Aer Lingus A321 LR flight soon to be flown from Dublin. Aer Lingus and BA are both IAG airlines, success at MSP could trigger a BA 787- 8. There is probably a quiet population wanting something other than Delta.
 
Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:22 am

There is probably a quiet population

Or

There is probably quite a population

Sorry I just had too :-)
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ChrisKen
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:25 am

Why serve MSP when they codeshare with AA who do?

viewtopic.php?t=593883
 
Cunard
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:48 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Why serve MSP when they codeshare with AA who do?

viewtopic.php?t=593883


I think that the topic is why either airline doesn't serve MSP and also regarding the possibility of either BA or LH ever starting MSP non stop from there respective hubs as in FRA and LHR.

BA may well code share with AA considering that the two airlines have a JV but that's irrelevant as AA don't fly direct from MSP to LHR.

With their extensive network in the USA British Airways was and has been mentioned by the OP and others in discussing why there are no direct flights as in non stop flights by British Airways from LHR to MSP.

I'm not promoting the idea of British Airways or even Lufthansa serving MSP but I can't see British Airways ever serving MSP.

Under Bermuda II MSP was designated as a transatlantic gateway in 1979, British Airways have had every opportunity to fly to MSP but it's obvious that they have no interest in doing so.

Even former destinations in the USA that we're previously flown by British Airways have made a return to the airlines route network in recent years with new ones added such as Austin, Charleston and Nashville but no Minneapolis which British Airways clearly sees as low demand especially due to the fact that it's a Delta fortress.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:28 am

ChrisKen wrote:
Why serve MSP when they codeshare with AA who do?

viewtopic.php?t=593883


BA serves a lot of cities in the US that AA serves. In fact, off-hand I think AA serves every US destination that BA does.
 
cm642
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:41 am

bagoldex wrote:
btbx11 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.


No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.


Even in that context it still offers at least twenty times as many daily intercontinental flights as Phoenix.


Yeah because when you add San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, and the rest of the Bay Area you have an international airport like SFO serving almost 8 million people, twice the population of the Greater Phoenix MSA! While there is San Jose and Oakland International, the majority of people in the Bay Area still use SFO as their primary airport for international travel!
 
Andy33
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:59 am

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Cunard wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:

Condor isn't a branch of Lufthansa. It's been owned by the Thomas Cook group for some time now.

Nothing else to add here. MSP has plenty of Europe service for the size of the market. Delta, Skyteam, yadayadaya...


Exactly it does amaze me every time that's brought up here on a.net

It's 16 years ago this year that Lufthansa sold Condor to the Thomas Cook Group :-)

I wonder how many more years it will take for people to finally realise that there is no affiliation between Condor and the Lufthansa Group :-)


As long as one can book a ticket on a Condor flight via the Lufthansa website, no one is truly going to believe that they are completely separate entities.

But being able to book one airline's flights on another's website is part of normal airline activity. Many thousands of codeshare flights worldwide, for example.
Codeshares don't even need to exist to permit it, but admittedly this is less common.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:12 am

klm617 wrote:

"What do you mean there is no market for international F in MSP? Do you know the number of business travelers that MSP gets from companies like Medtronic, Cargill, Boston Scientific, and 3M?

Business is the reason MSP is getting service to DUB, ICN, and MEX."


Just an FYI, 3M really doesn't allow international F for it's employees, J is about as high as you can go....Nothing else to add.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 am

rainaviation2 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Delta serves LHR from MSP daily on the 767.


So if Delta can only justify a single daily 767 with both local traffic and hub feed, why would anyone think that BA could make this route work?


More connecting opportunities in Europe VIA LHR on BA.


DL already takes care of that via AMS. I imagine that BA relies more heavily on Europe point of sale and I don't think there are that many Europeans wanting to travel to Minneapolis. Likewise for LH and Germany.
Usually these secondary cities rely heavily on corporate contracts and specific business ties on both sides of the Atlantic. See LH's MUC-CLT and AA's RDU-LHR for example. Yes I am implying that Minneapolis is a secondary market. The DL hub there skews the passenger numbers but it's still a relatively small international market. The other problem is that MSP is competing with other larger hubs in the region for European connections, such as ORD and DTW.
 
drgreendds
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Probably not much of a business sense for either carrier to enter the MSP market unless it's on a limited basis. The business environment in MN is horrible. Over the past decade, many strong MN companies like 3M, Target, Medtronic, etc. have flirted with moving the HQs to other states because of the high corporate taxes here. And the population is predominantly of Scandanavian descent, not German or British, yet MN doesn't even have direct flights to Scandanavian capital cities. And D8, SK, AY are nowhere to be seen. The closest we get is FI flying through Rejkyavik. Until MN changes their approach to doing business here, it will continue to be a leisure market and the international airlines will stay away, IMHO.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:57 pm

btbx11 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
Population alone doesn't equate with demand. Phoenix and San Francisco are similarly sized metro areas yet one offers dozens of intercontinental flights each day while the other can only make one work year round.


No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.


If an MSA is part of a CSA (and most are), CSA is a far better indicator of potential air travel catchment area. Otherwise you divide up places like Washington DC and Baltimore, and the bay area. Obviously people in those adjacent MSAs also use all those neighboring airports.
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rainaviation2
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:46 pm

airbazar wrote:
rainaviation2 wrote:

More connecting opportunities in Europe VIA LHR on BA.


DL already takes care of that via AMS. I imagine that BA relies more heavily on Europe point of sale and I don't think there are that many Europeans wanting to travel to Minneapolis. Likewise for LH and Germany.
Usually these secondary cities rely heavily on corporate contracts and specific business ties on both sides of the Atlantic. See LH's MUC-CLT and AA's RDU-LHR for example. Yes I am implying that Minneapolis is a secondary market. The DL hub there skews the passenger numbers but it's still a relatively small international market. The other problem is that MSP is competing with other larger hubs in the region for European connections, such as ORD and DTW.


I wouldn't call MSP a secondary business market, but I wouldn't call it a primary business market (ORD, JFK) either. DUB is being added due to the Regional Air Service Partnership in MSP, which is seeking out business destinations not currently served. I know that Cargill has employees that travel to BRU quite often for business. 3M has operations in 70 countries across the world and spent $70 million on global travel in 2015.

DL does shuffle quite a few of these travelers through AMS and soon to be ICN (HND does not have that many connecting opportunities), but I think that BA or LH could also succeed in serving this market.
 
F27500
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:08 pm

Minneapolis is not enough of a destination in itself unless you're either Scandinavian .. or affiliated somehow with Delta.

Uf-Dahh
 
northsouthnomad
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
Just saw a post about LH And BA going to to Denver, so my question is why can’t msp get any of these flights. The area has around 3.5 million people.


Because Denver and Colorado in general are a drawcard for Europeans. Minneapolis... Not so much
 
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spinotter
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:45 pm

F27500 wrote:
Minneapolis is not enough of a destination in itself unless you're either Scandinavian .. or affiliated somehow with Delta.

Uf-Dahh


Even if you are Scandinavian or Scandinavian-American, Minnesota and the fatherland have very tenuous connections. NW used to fly 747's nonstop from MSP to OSL/ARN/CPH, but those routes were soon dropped for lack of interest.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:47 pm

cm642 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
btbx11 wrote:

No. As has been explained here many times, the Bay Area population is strangely divided into 3 MSAs. This is unique among large American metro areas. The SFO catchment area is the Bay Area CMSA and beyond - more than double the population of the Phoenix metro.


Even in that context it still offers at least twenty times as many daily intercontinental flights as Phoenix.


Yeah because when you add San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, and the rest of the Bay Area you have an international airport like SFO serving almost 8 million people, twice the population of the Greater Phoenix MSA! While there is San Jose and Oakland International, the majority of people in the Bay Area still use SFO as their primary airport for international travel!


Twice the population and twenty times as much international service. My point stands. Sorry that you're stuck in Phoenix.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:53 pm

bagoldex wrote:
cm642 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Even in that context it still offers at least twenty times as many daily intercontinental flights as Phoenix.


Yeah because when you add San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, and the rest of the Bay Area you have an international airport like SFO serving almost 8 million people, twice the population of the Greater Phoenix MSA! While there is San Jose and Oakland International, the majority of people in the Bay Area still use SFO as their primary airport for international travel!


Twice the population and twenty times as much international service. My point stands. Sorry that you're stuck in Phoenix.


You dont seem to get it. Population and demand are not conclusively connected.
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yuomi
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:11 pm

DL can't fill a daily 767. What more is there to say?
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:22 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
cm642 wrote:

Yeah because when you add San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, and the rest of the Bay Area you have an international airport like SFO serving almost 8 million people, twice the population of the Greater Phoenix MSA! While there is San Jose and Oakland International, the majority of people in the Bay Area still use SFO as their primary airport for international travel!


Twice the population and twenty times as much international service. My point stands. Sorry that you're stuck in Phoenix.


You dont seem to get it. Population and demand are not conclusively connected.


That's exactly my point. Similarly sized cities and metro areas cannot all sustain the same level of service.
 
MNgopher
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:47 pm

drgreendds wrote:
And the population is predominantly of Scandanavian descent, not German or British, yet MN doesn't even have direct flights to Scandanavian capital cities.


You are right on the flights, but not on the ancestry descent of the population.

The highest level of ancestry claimed in Minnesota is German, with over 33% of Minnesotans claiming some German heritage.

Norwegian around 15%. Swedish around 8%. Finnish around 2%. Other Scandinavian around 3%. All told it comes out to about 28% Scandinavian - lower than German.

Go out in rural Minnesota, and you will quickly find huge areas of German descent - I worked in a county with a Scandinavian last name and was often told that I must not have grown up there since my name was not German.

And none of that has much bearing on traveling back to Europe.

At the end of the day, most of our European travel needs are met traveling to AMS and connecting there. Not a difficult concept to grasp, given the relationship Delta has with Air France / KLM.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:21 pm

yuomi wrote:
DL can't fill a daily 767. What more is there to say?


I wonder if the new MOM (if it gets built) will allow FRA to happen...
 
klakzky123
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:55 pm

yuomi wrote:
DL can't fill a daily 767. What more is there to say?


I think the MSP-LHR flight is one of the better performers among DL's LHR flights. The yields are good and the load factor is pretty decent for an LHR flight. But its not high enough to justify a higher gauge. And that's also the reason why BA will stay away. DL will crush yields to protect its market share. BA can easily find secondary cities with no TATL flights that are willing to throw them huge subsidies. There's no sense in fighting a war with DL when they can focus on untouched markets with governments that are ready to give them money.
 
texl1649
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:06 pm

There are a ton of Somalis but not a big demand to get back and forth from Addis Ababa either. Not real hard to figure out why...
 
OSL777FLYER
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:13 pm

No feeder traffic for LH or UA at MSP. MSP is a Delta fortress and they use KL/AF to steer traffic through AMS/CDG. Condor does fly in the summer months for tourists as well as Icelandair.

Aer Lingus also supposed to come now for the summer season.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:18 pm

Elementalism wrote:
Not enough demand imo. Even Delta only flies a 767 to LHR.


Much too simplistic of a demand profile. MSP-LHR is a monopoly nonstop market. DL is in a position to supply that demand with only enough capacity for a yield, PRASM, or margin optimizing profile. All three of those restrict supply to only capture the high end of the demand curve. There's undoubtedly more demand to had to fill much more than a 763. But DL has no incentive to meet it. Unfortunately for BA, if they enter the market, they can expect a swift retaliation by DL that will make the route unattractive. So in the end BA stays away, and the consumer loses. It's a similar story with LH and FRA.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:20 pm

texl1649 wrote:
There are a ton of Somalis but not a big demand to get back and forth from Addis Ababa either. Not real hard to figure out why...


Well, technically Addis Ababa is in Ethiopia, the nation next door to Somalia, but I understand your point.

Diaspora does not equal high business demand between locations necessitating a non-stop.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:22 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
There are a ton of Somalis but not a big demand to get back and forth from Addis Ababa either. Not real hard to figure out why...


Well, technically Addis Ababa is in Ethiopia, the nation next door to Somalia, but I understand your point.

Diaspora does not equal high business demand between locations necessitating a non-stop.


Otherwise MSP-VTE would be huge, but its 4 PDEW.
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cm642
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:30 pm

bagoldex wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

Twice the population and twenty times as much international service. My point stands. Sorry that you're stuck in Phoenix.


You dont seem to get it. Population and demand are not conclusively connected.


That's exactly my point. Similarly sized cities and metro areas cannot all sustain the same level of service.
Last edited by cm642 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
cm642
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:31 pm

cm642 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

You dont seem to get it. Population and demand are not conclusively connected.


That's exactly my point. Similarly sized cities and metro areas cannot all sustain the same level of service.


The point I'm making is San Frans MSA is still greatly larger than Phoenix and as pointed out to you before San Fran and the Bay Area is a major tech hub along with being home to numerous Fortune 500 companies which helps create that international demand PHX does not have that! You can't compare the two metros, they're both different beasts in their own right!
 
bagoldex
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:16 pm

cm642 wrote:
cm642 wrote:
bagoldex wrote:

That's exactly my point. Similarly sized cities and metro areas cannot all sustain the same level of service.


The point I'm making is San Frans MSA is still greatly larger than Phoenix and as pointed out to you before San Fran and the Bay Area is a major tech hub along with being home to numerous Fortune 500 companies which helps create that international demand PHX does not have that! You can't compare the two metros, they're both different beasts in their own right!


That's the whole damn point demonstrating the disparities in service levels between different cities. One city is an economic and cultural powerhouse that people from all over the world flock to to visit, attend university, start a business or change careers and the other is mainly a population center geared toward older Americans riding out the final years of their life and folks seeking to live inexpensively because they couldn't hack it in another city while attracting some Canadian snowbirds who can't afford to go anywhere better. I could use other cities to make the same point but Phoenix probably has the lowest levels of international service of any major metro area.
 
FSDan
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:41 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
MSP-LHR is a monopoly nonstop market. DL is in a position to supply that demand with only enough capacity for a yield, PRASM, or margin optimizing profile. All three of those restrict supply to only capture the high end of the demand curve. There's undoubtedly more demand to had to fill much more than a 763. But DL has no incentive to meet it. Unfortunately for BA, if they enter the market, they can expect a swift retaliation by DL that will make the route unattractive.


True, DL doesn't really have an incentive to put more capacity in the market than what's needed to cover the O&D demand that's willing to pay a premium, as well as the small amount of connecting traffic that can only realistically be flowed over MSP. DL could add capacity to MSP-LHR, but they'd just be diluting their yields, and probably pulling some connecting volume from their own MSP-AMS and DTW-LHR flights. Especially given that DL relatively recently went double daily on DTW-LHR, I imagine some of the connections that could be flowed over either hub are being prioritized over DTW for now.

MSPNWA wrote:
It's a similar story with LH and FRA.


Here I disagree a bit. MSP-FRA is a much smaller local market than MSP-LHR, and LH also likely has bigger fish to fry than MSP compared to BA from a network perspective (LAS and PHX come to mind as major markets that are unserved by LH, but already served by BA and therefore not in competition with MSP if BA was looking to add another U.S. route). Basically, I think there are bigger reasons why LH isn't serving MSP beyond just the fact that DL might add FRA if LH started it. With BA it does seem that the DL factor could be significant.
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Bhoy
Posts: 358
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:40 am

2travel2know2 wrote:
One of the bigger issues with no BA to MSP (and to DTW) is getting the LHR slots for those flights.
Maybe there are slots but none really suitable for an attractive schedule; Who would like a MSP/DTW 2230h arrival and 0030h departure to LHR?
Yes, there`s BA at LGW, but unless BA wants to go to airfare war, both MSP and DTW aren´t the kind of destinations suitable for BA LGW service, specially if the other airline flying MSP/DTW - LON flies to LHR.

As LGW only has a 772/32S base, there's zero chance of BA looking to open markets to secondary US Cities ex-Gatwick. Any new markets will be trialed with Dreamliners from Heathrow, purely down to the size of the Y Cabin on the densified 10 abreast 772s.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:51 am

The only way BA or LH would fly direct to MSP is if there was or is a narrow body aircraft that would have the legs to complete the flight. They would have Delta to compete with and it is not worth their effort to go head to head with Delta over this market. Delta started flying Icelandic's route to KEF from MSP. Yes both BA and LH have deeper than Icelandic but they both most likely prefer to fly routes with better return on investment and neither would have any connections out of MSP. Basically the only airlines that fly to Europe are Sky team airlines that have a relationship with Delta. :old:
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klm617
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:33 am

I really don't see Delta giving LH a run for their money if they enter MSP. Because FRA is not really a core market for them an LH would not be in MSP undercutting Delta to poach it's passenger. LH market share would probably come from those who are loyal to Star and are one stopping over ORD to get to FRA. No LHR that's a whole different story DL would fight them there as LHR is a core market for DL/VS and warrants defending. I think the reason for DL's KEF retaliation is due to the fact that FI was poaching their customers at MSP that were tired of DL high fares so hence they tried to drive them out of the market but as of yet that hasn't worked.
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Thunderbolt500
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:59 am

drgreendds wrote:
Probably not much of a business sense for either carrier to enter the MSP market unless it's on a limited basis. The business environment in MN is horrible. Over the past decade, many strong MN companies like 3M, Target, Medtronic, etc. have flirted with moving the HQs to other states because of the high corporate taxes here. And the population is predominantly of Scandanavian descent, not German or British, yet MN doesn't even have direct flights to Scandanavian capital cities. And D8, SK, AY are nowhere to be seen. The closest we get is FI flying through Rejkyavik. Until MN changes their approach to doing business here, it will continue to be a leisure market and the international airlines will s unless senate rebtay away, IMHO.

It doesn't help when your new governor is going on spending spree, just cant help raise the gas tax unless the senate repulican stop him
 
S0Y
Posts: 86
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Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:01 am

BA do not see the need right now, since IAG already have MSP-DUB lined up. I am sure IAG will figure out hoe to add a LON service if the numbers stack up
 
S0Y
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:25 pm

Re: Why no LH or BA in MSP

Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:12 am

BA do not see the need right now, since IAG already have MSP-DUB lined up. I am sure IAG will figure out hoe to add a LON service if the numbers stack up

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