Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:05 am

It is only effecting 85 flight 1.27% of AA’s total flights, you are all making a way bigger deal out of it. AA is not bringing back any MD 80s.

No pilots to fiy them
Not airworthy
No interiors, parts removed.
Not on the AOC anymore.

I don’t understand the obsession with brining planes back that would cost millions to do so. It’s not feasible.
 
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FredrikHAD
Posts: 443
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:16 am

FltAdmiralRitt wrote:
Looks like the B737 MAX problem comes too late in the MD80 drawdown cycle for any options to be viable.

Does anyone really think a software fix on the B737 is going to satisfy the Public or foreign carriers for that matter.
it doesn't feel like a 10 day situation, it seems like a 18 month recertifying situation.

IF(!) MCAS is at fault, it IS a software problem, so a software fix is what’s needed. I imagine the regulatory bodies would settle for a software fix and pilot training short term and possibly require other actions for the long term, possibly adding more AoA sensors or cross-referencing the two present ones with each other and with the rest of the sensors to determine if the readings of either is realistic or not.

When I say it is a software problem I mean that given an incorrect input from one single sensor (which must be a possible failure mode that is foreseen and possible to handle in a resonable way), the software still commands nose down without notifying the pilots, not considering if it makes sense or not, it just pushes the nose down until you can no longer recover. That’s my definition of a software error.

Again, this is IF MCAS was the culprit.

/Fredrik
 
wjcandee
Posts: 7989
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:41 am

After the Alaska MD80 accident, I remember stories about how jackscrew motors across the fleet were burning out from constant preflight checking by flight crews. True or not, the point was that there wasn't an MD80 pilot that didn't know about the accident and hadn't thought about it.

IF the Ethiopian accident was MCAS, these were apparently the only two pilots (oops, I mean one pilot and 200-hour TT passenger in the right seat) on the entire planet who didn't have MCAS in the forefront of their minds to the extent that they experienced any altitude issues and saw significant and uncommanded stab trim in motion. Hell, even I know how to turn the thing off and when to suspect a malfunction of it.

Moreover, one would think that with a cadet program FO, one would want to keep workload down and thus would be pushing LNAV pretty-quickly upon departure. Of course, I don't know anything about navigation in Ethiopia, but if they have built and entered a flight plan into the flight director, one would think that they'd be into it pretty-quickly.

And if they were operating on any level of autopilot, MCAS is going to be off. Which reminds us that something else may well be at play.

If it is some other 737MAX issue that is unique to this model, Boeing is in big trouble.
 
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usair330
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:10 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Delta is bringing back the DC-9.


Killed it.... The good old "When will NW retire the DC9 thread"
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:38 pm

AA is guesstimating the Max’s back in the air on the 26th.

Per Jon NYC Jon Ostower
 
FltAdmiralRitt
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:57 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:28 pm

That's very optimistic:

To convince me the fix works, you would have to execute 50 cycles, in varying conditions, in 3 different MAX'es.
WHY?, because automated systems get out of syncronization with each other rather easily and subtly.
If you just run the fixes through simulators, that is not enough.

IF the MAXes Fix turns out to be More involved.....
I suspect that, if AA Still had 100 MD80's , I am sure they would ask the Pilots union for a contingency, to delay
retiring of the MD's and delay training in the MAXes. The other option is pilot furloughs in that hypothetical situation, which would
the union prefer?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:59 pm

FltAdmiralRitt wrote:
That's very optimistic:

To convince me the fix works, you would have to execute 50 cycles, in varying conditions, in 3 different MAX'es.
WHY?, because automated systems get out of syncronization with each other rather easily and subtly.
If you just run the fixes through simulators, that is not enough.

IF the MAXes Fix turns out to be More involved.....
I suspect that, if AA Still had 100 MD80's , I am sure they would ask the Pilots union for a contingency, to delay
retiring of the MD's and delay training in the MAXes. The other option is pilot furloughs in that hypothetical situation, which would
the union prefer?

Give it up, there are no MD80s coming back, the Max ground is only effecting 1.27% of AAs total flights. There are 10 stored at ROS, they are not airworthy nor are their qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots are in training and/or transitioned to other fleet types.

I don’t get people’s obsession with an outdated plane.
 
777PHX
Posts: 962
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:36 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:07 pm

wjcandee wrote:
IF the Ethiopian accident was MCAS, these were apparently the only two pilots (oops, I mean one pilot and 200-hour TT passenger in the right seat) on the entire planet who didn't have MCAS in the forefront of their minds to the extent that they experienced any altitude issues and saw significant and uncommanded stab trim in motion. Hell, even I know how to turn the thing off and when to suspect a malfunction of it.


I read somewhere where Ethiopian published a statement stating that these pilots in question had gotten supplementary training on MCAS after Lionair.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 642
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:49 pm

FltAdmiralRitt wrote:
That's very optimistic:

To convince me the fix works, you would have to execute 50 cycles, in varying conditions, in 3 different MAX'es.
WHY?, because automated systems get out of syncronization with each other rather easily and subtly.
If you just run the fixes through simulators, that is not enough.

IF the MAXes Fix turns out to be More involved.....
I suspect that, if AA Still had 100 MD80's , I am sure they would ask the Pilots union for a contingency, to delay
retiring of the MD's and delay training in the MAXes. The other option is pilot furloughs in that hypothetical situation, which would
the union prefer?


The other thread has details regarding the pilots -- after March, AA in-house simulators are not longer valid; so AA has either to invest into simulators, or buy simulator time outside (where?). Absent that, existing pilot pool will be gradually losing currency, as currently planned.

ADS-B cutoff date apparently will be the death knell for MD-80's in the US regardless; unless there is appetite, systemwide, to postpone ADS-B deadlines.
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triple3driver
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:57 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Delta is bringing back the DC-9.


Indeed, I've already bidded for it
If you can walk away from it intact, it was a good landing!
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2424
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:17 am

triple3driver wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Delta is bringing back the DC-9.


Indeed, I've already bidded for it


But only the -10... :roll:
 
JonNYC
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:26 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:39 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
AA is guesstimating the Max’s back in the air on the 26th.

Per Jon NYC Jon Ostower

Hey, just curious-- I tweeted that in AA's system it has this (yes, that **EXTRAORDINARILY** optimistic) "estimated back in service date" of March 26th.

Did Jon Ostower pick that up/ post that as well somewhere? Just curious, thanks!
 
CO953
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:07 am

triple3driver wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Delta is bringing back the DC-9.


Indeed, I've already bidded for it


Someone's got to bring the MAX ferry pilots back from VCV........
Yeah, low blow, but sometimes dark humor gets you through....
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:57 am

Boof02671 wrote:
FltAdmiralRitt wrote:
That's very optimistic:

To convince me the fix works, you would have to execute 50 cycles, in varying conditions, in 3 different MAX'es.
WHY?, because automated systems get out of syncronization with each other rather easily and subtly.
If you just run the fixes through simulators, that is not enough.

IF the MAXes Fix turns out to be More involved.....
I suspect that, if AA Still had 100 MD80's , I am sure they would ask the Pilots union for a contingency, to delay
retiring of the MD's and delay training in the MAXes. The other option is pilot furloughs in that hypothetical situation, which would
the union prefer?

Give it up, there are no MD80s coming back, the Max ground is only effecting 1.27% of AAs total flights. There are 10 stored at ROS, they are not airworthy nor are their qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots are in training and/or transitioned to other fleet types.

I don’t get people’s obsession with an outdated plane.

You’re the kind of people who drove me and many others away from this site years ago.
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
User avatar
Veigar
Topic Author
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:09 pm

Re: Will MAX grounding delay AA MD-80 retirements AGAIN?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:10 am

Lrockeagle wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
FltAdmiralRitt wrote:
That's very optimistic:

To convince me the fix works, you would have to execute 50 cycles, in varying conditions, in 3 different MAX'es.
WHY?, because automated systems get out of syncronization with each other rather easily and subtly.
If you just run the fixes through simulators, that is not enough.

IF the MAXes Fix turns out to be More involved.....
I suspect that, if AA Still had 100 MD80's , I am sure they would ask the Pilots union for a contingency, to delay
retiring of the MD's and delay training in the MAXes. The other option is pilot furloughs in that hypothetical situation, which would
the union prefer?

Give it up, there are no MD80s coming back, the Max ground is only effecting 1.27% of AAs total flights. There are 10 stored at ROS, they are not airworthy nor are their qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots are in training and/or transitioned to other fleet types.

I don’t get people’s obsession with an outdated plane.

You’re the kind of people who drove me and many others away from this site years ago.


Just let him be. He goes around ctrl c'ing and ctrl v'ing the same exact post to everyone that asked this question. Also, this thread isn't asking for AA MD-80s that have already been retired to be pulled out of the desert, rather, if the MAX grounding delays the ones that are currently in service to be retired.

Other have addressed the latter point though, so I believe it made for some interesting discussion. It certainly is an awkward time for AA.

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