Silverstreak
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The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:33 am

The pictures of the newest Boeing are certainly impressive. I wonder though about those long, impressive wings. The folding winglets hardly seem worth it when looking at rest of the wing. I’m sure that Boeing felt it was necessary and not a gimmick. I remember many years ago there was an article about a new Boeing airliner with folding wings only they folded about half way.
 
QueenoftheSkies
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:39 am

Yea it was kind of a let down. Realistically the wing could never fold the way it was initially shown due to the fuel tanks. It reminds me of prototype cars that have all the W-O-W figure. But when the actual car is launched it’s meh.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:14 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Realistically the wing could never fold the way it was initially shown due to the fuel tanks. It reminds me of prototype cars that have all the W-O-W figure. But when the actual car is launched it’s meh.


I don't believe fuel tanks had anything to do with it. It was actually lack of interest. To use analogy, once the idea was pushed, it was - meh.
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:42 am

Silverstreak wrote:
The pictures of the newest Boeing are certainly impressive. I wonder though about those long, impressive wings. The folding winglets hardly seem worth it when looking at rest of the wing. I’m sure that Boeing felt it was necessary and not a gimmick. I remember many years ago there was an article about a new Boeing airliner with folding wings only they folded about half way.


It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.
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Channex757
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:47 am

You might be referring to the original pictures of what ultimately became the B777-200. Outer wing sections folding to enable parking at narrow gates. The simple truth was airlines considered it too heavy and too expensive an option.

Engineers can usually solve most requirements, but at a price. Whether that is in weight or cash or both. It just wasn't interesting to the airlines who wanted light and cheap.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Yea it was kind of a let down. Realistically the wing could never fold the way it was initially shown due to the fuel tanks.

Had nothing to do with fuel tanks. In fact, it ended up augmenting those.

The weight required to fold the wings past the point with movable surfaces was unacceptable to airlines. It was an option on initial 772A deliveries (that no airline selected) and it was completely removed once production of the 772ER began, which is why the 77E holds slightly more fuel in its wings than the 772, even ignoring the center-tank capacity.
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:10 am

gunsontheroof wrote:
Silverstreak wrote:
The pictures of the newest Boeing are certainly impressive. I wonder though about those long, impressive wings. The folding winglets hardly seem worth it when looking at rest of the wing. I’m sure that Boeing felt it was necessary and not a gimmick. I remember many years ago there was an article about a new Boeing airliner with folding wings only they folded about half way.


It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.



Wrong. With the wingtips folded, it can use Code E gates (ie. 77W).

Unfolded would require the larger Code F gates (ie. 748 and 388).
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:59 am

gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:10 am

sonicruiser wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?


Each wingtip is about 15 feet. They perform the function of raked wingtips on 77W/L/F aircraft. The 77X can most likely fly without those wingtips, although not as well as with them. I doubt that will ever happen though.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:10 am

sonicruiser wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?

11 foot long folding tips, according to Wiki. So 22 feet of wingspan.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:12 am

sonicruiser wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:06 am

jagraham wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?


Each wingtip is about 15 feet. They perform the function of raked wingtips on 77W/L/F aircraft. The 77X can most likely fly without those wingtips, although not as well as with them. I doubt that will ever happen though.



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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:26 am

jagraham wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
It's no gimmick. The wingtips fold so that the 777X can fit into existing "F" class gates without special accommodations. It may not look like a significant portion of the wing, but it's enough to shorten the span for the purposes needed. I'm not sure why you'd think Boeing would put the required engineering into this for the sake of a "gimmick"--it's a major feature of an already complex design that was included for very valid reasons.


How long are the folding tips? Do they actually have a significant enough impact that the plane can't fly without them?


Each wingtip is about 15 feet. They perform the function of raked wingtips on 77W/L/F aircraft. The 77X can most likely fly without those wingtips, although not as well as with them. I doubt that will ever happen though.


You can ferry the airplane without the wingtips, but not dispatch on a revenue flight without them.

There are multiple protections so you don’t accidentally takeoff with them folded.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:17 am

Silverstreak wrote:
The pictures of the newest Boeing are certainly impressive. I wonder though about those long, impressive wings. The folding winglets hardly seem worth it when looking at rest of the wing. I’m sure that Boeing felt it was necessary and not a gimmick. I remember many years ago there was an article about a new Boeing airliner with folding wings only they folded about half way.

Wiki quote on wingspan:

235 ft 5 in (71.8 m) unfolded, 212 ft 9 in (64.8 m) folded

Wing tips add 22 ft 6 in so each one adds 11 ft 3 in.

Wing tips add 71.8/64.8 = 10% to wing span, and yes that is significant.

Would you like a 10% cut in your pay?

Some info from Wiki:

The 777X will have a new longer composite wing with folding wingtips.[44] Based on the 787 wing but with less sweep, the new wing has a higher lift-to-drag ratio, an aspect ratio increased from 9:1 to 10:1, an area increased from 4,702 to 5,562 sq ft (436.8 to 516.7 m2), and usable fuel capacity increased from 320,863 to 350,410 lb (145,541 to 158,943 kg).[1]

To stay within the size category of the current 777 with a less than 213 ft (65 m) wingspan, it will feature 11 feet (3.5 m) folding wingtips supplied by Liebherr Aerospace.[45] The mechanism was demonstrated for Aviation Week at the Boeing Everett Factory in October 2016; the folding movement should be complete in 20 seconds and be locked in place at the end.[46] Specific alerts and procedures are needed to handle a malfunction.[47]

As existing regulations do not cover the folding wingtips, the FAA will issue special conditions, including proving their load-carrying limits, demonstrating their handling qualities in a crosswind when raised, alerting the crew when they are not correctly positioned while the mechanism and controls will be further inspected.[48] Those ten special conditions were to be published on May 18, 2018, covering worst-case scenarios.[49]

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777X

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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:09 pm

It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380? HND might be the only one.
Last edited by airbazar on Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:12 pm

airbazar wrote:
It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380?

It’s less for the airfield and more for gates. F class gates are limited at most airports, E class gates are typically plentiful (in terms of % of available gates) at any airport that would see something the size of a 777X.

I suspect folding wingtips are going to be more common in the future, it would not surprise me to see them on the 737/A320 replacements to allow for wider wingspans but use of the same gates as current narrow bodies.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:28 pm

Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380?

It’s less for the airfield and more for gates. F class gates are limited at most airports, E class gates are typically plentiful (in terms of % of available gates) at any airport that would see something the size of a 777X.

I know that but that's my point. The 779 will be flown into airports that already have the gate infrastructure because they already support 748is and A380s. In fact it's becoming clear that the 779 will in most cases replace the A380/748i at most airlines. LH just replaced their outstanding options for smaller A350's in a clear sign that they're not expanding their VLA fleet.
So far I see only 2 airlines and airports ([email protected] and [email protected]) that will benefit from it. A code F airplane will be a novelty for these 2 airlines at their respective hubs so they would need more gates than they currently have (I'm obviously ignoring NH's A380's which fly from NRT for this exact reason).

Polot wrote:
I suspect folding wingtips are going to be more common in the future, it would not surprise me to see them on the 737/A320 replacements to allow for wider wingspans but use of the same gates as current narrow bodies.

I'm not so sure unless it comes as an option. Is Boeing even talking about folding wing tips for the NMA? The vast majority of narrow bodies fly short haul where wingspan is less of an issue and the extra weight is more of a detriment.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pm

airbazar wrote:
Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380?

It’s less for the airfield and more for gates. F class gates are limited at most airports, E class gates are typically plentiful (in terms of % of available gates) at any airport that would see something the size of a 777X.

I know that but that's my point. The 779 will be flown into airports that already have the gate infrastructure because they already support 748is and A380s. In fact it's becoming clear that the 779 will in most cases replace the A380/748i at most airlines. LH just replaced their outstanding options for smaller A350's in a clear sign that they're not expanding their VLA fleet.
So far I see only 2 airlines and airports ([email protected] and [email protected]) that will benefit from it. A code F airplane will be a novelty for these 2 airlines at their respective hubs so they would need more gates than they currently have (I'm obviously ignoring NH's A380's which fly from NRT for this exact reason).

Polot wrote:
I suspect folding wingtips are going to be more common in the future, it would not surprise me to see them on the 737/A320 replacements to allow for wider wingspans but use of the same gates as current narrow bodies.

I'm not so sure unless it comes as an option. Is Boeing even talking about folding wing tips for the NMA? The vast majority of narrow bodies fly short haul where wingspan is less of an issue and the extra weight is more of a detriment.

Well Boeing is obviously hoping that the 777X will sell far more than the 748/A380. There is F gate infrastructure, but not a lot and it still must be shared with 748/A380s in service. You run into situations like at JFK. BA currently has no F gates at their terminal. If they want to bring an F class plane they either have to block neighboring gates, reconfigure gates, or bring it to another terminal. With a 777X they have no issues- they just fold the wingtips up and park it in the same gates they park 744/777s in. Obviously because of the 777X’s size (and thus currently limited sales quantity) the benefit may not be as obvious. But it is a good first step to introducing the idea in commercial aviation and working out any kinks/procedural details before moving it to higher volume products.

As for the 737/A320 replacements, I think Airbus and Boeing will go larger on wingspan. They will use the A220/E2 (both of which, I’ll add, have wingspans similar to the A320/737 despite being designed within the past ~20 years and designed from the get go to be “short haul” jets) for the low end/super short haul needs and make their new narrow bodies capable for TATL/medium range/transcontinental etc needs. The 737/A320 both have “old” aluminum wings- B and A are going to look at larger carbon fiber wings that will have similar weights.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:45 pm

Imagine the cost of replacing these when they slice into the tail of another aircraft or the wind of another aicraft and it clean rips them off at the "hinge" looking part.

It will happen at some point, just when and where.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:00 pm

airbazar wrote:
I know that but that's my point. The 779 will be flown into airports that already have the gate infrastructure because they already support 748is and A380s. In fact it's becoming clear that the 779 will in most cases replace the A380/748i at most airlines.

It's not clear to me.

We are in the early days of 777x.

777x will have a long life span, and will replace many 77Ws and many 744s (ref: BA, LH).

Restricting 777x to A380/748 gates would be a big mistake, IMHO.

Some numbers courtesy of Stitch, 10 years ago!

ICAO Annex 14 - Aerodrome Reference Code
(Aeroplane Wingspan; Outer Main Gear Wheel Span)

Code A - < 15m (49.2'); <4.5m (14.8')
Code B - 15m (49.2') - <24m (78.7'); 4.5m (14.8') - <6m (19.7')
Code C - 24m (78.7') - <36m (118.1'); 6m (19.7') - <9m (29.5')
Code D - 36m (118.1') - <52m (170.6'); 9m (29.5') - <14m (45.9')
Code E - 52m (170.6') - <65m (213.3'); 9m (29.5') - <14m (45.9')
Code F - 65m (213.3') - <80m (262.5'); 14m (45.9') - <16m (52.5')

Ref: viewtopic.php?t=761459

Clearly saving 15 meters per gate is very helpful to airport operators.

airbazar wrote:
LH just replaced their outstanding options for smaller A350's in a clear sign that they're not expanding their VLA fleet.

That is not a true rendering of the situation. The LH plan of record is still to acquire 34 777x. Their financial planning documents say so. Their CEO just said so. They did just order 789s and A359s. It's not been stated if that transaction did or did not impact the 777x options. The state of the options is not that relevant given they still say they will take 34 777x.

airbazar wrote:
So far I see only 2 airlines and airports ([email protected] and [email protected]) that will benefit from it. A code F airplane will be a novelty for these 2 airlines at their respective hubs so they would need more gates than they currently have (I'm obviously ignoring NH's A380's which fly from NRT for this exact reason).

Just because an airport has some code F gates doesn't mean the flexibility to use Code E gates isn't a benefit. See EY's A380 visit to ATL for an example.

Redwood839 wrote:
Imagine the cost of replacing these when they slice into the tail of another aircraft or the wind of another aicraft and it clean rips them off at the "hinge" looking part.

It will happen at some point, just when and where.

The guidance we have is the 777x wing tips will be folded when in the vicinity of other aircraft.

I think folding the wingtips could help avoid some situations such as:

Image

But Code E aircraft aren't immune:

Image

So, stuff happens.

In the end, the benefits of +10% wing span will be present every flight.

The risk of long wings hitting things is always there, even for existing aircraft.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:06 pm

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
Yea it was kind of a let down. Realistically the wing could never fold the way it was initially shown due to the fuel tanks. It reminds me of prototype cars that have all the W-O-W figure. But when the actual car is launched it’s meh.


Agreed. I think many people saw the renderings and were expecting the 777X folding wing tips to be more impressive than they are now that we can all see them on a production airliner.

I am a huge 777X fan and hope that the 777X will become a great aircraft for Boeing and the airlines operating it, but the "meh" factor upon seeing the 777X folding wingtips reminds me of the letdown experienced after the original 787 profile with it's dramatic nose and tail was later value-engineered into the much less impressive final production design.

Image

Image
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:22 pm

Here's a question. Does an airline gets charged more for an F gates vs an E gate?

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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:29 pm

Another example of one of the things I find quite bizarre with this site... How long are the folding section of the wings one poster asked:
1 poster said 12 feet
1 poster said 11 feet ( well foot)
1 poster said 11.3 feet
1 poster said 15 feet
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:29 pm

airbazar wrote:
It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380? HND might be the only one.


Remember how many 777Xs Emirates has ordered. They fly 777s into many places that never saw an A380 or 747-8 and probably never will.
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:32 pm

airbazar wrote:
However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380? HND might be the only one.


Honestly, given the extraordinary cost of real estate in major airports, if the next generation of VLA can fit smaller gates we may see a reduction in Code F gates at existing airports.

Replacing 5 gates with 6 could mean a lot considering how long large aircraft can stay on the ground between flights.
Last edited by NameOmitted on Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I know that but that's my point. The 779 will be flown into airports that already have the gate infrastructure because they already support 748is and A380s. In fact it's becoming clear that the 779 will in most cases replace the A380/748i at most airlines.

It's not clear to me.

We are in the early days of 777x.

777x will have a long life span, and will replace many 77Ws and many 744s (ref: BA, LH).

Restricting 777x to A380/748 gates would be a big mistake, IMHO.

Some numbers courtesy of Stitch, 10 years ago!

ICAO Annex 14 - Aerodrome Reference Code
(Aeroplane Wingspan; Outer Main Gear Wheel Span)

Code A - < 15m (49.2'); <4.5m (14.8')
Code B - 15m (49.2') - <24m (78.7'); 4.5m (14.8') - <6m (19.7')
Code C - 24m (78.7') - <36m (118.1'); 6m (19.7') - <9m (29.5')
Code D - 36m (118.1') - <52m (170.6'); 9m (29.5') - <14m (45.9')
Code E - 52m (170.6') - <65m (213.3'); 9m (29.5') - <14m (45.9')
Code F - 65m (213.3') - <80m (262.5'); 14m (45.9') - <16m (52.5')

Ref: viewtopic.php?t=761459

Clearly saving 15 meters per gate is very helpful to airport operators.

airbazar wrote:
LH just replaced their outstanding options for smaller A350's in a clear sign that they're not expanding their VLA fleet.

That is not a true rendering of the situation. The LH plan of record is still to acquire 34 777x. Their financial planning documents say so. Their CEO just said so. They did just order 789s and A359s. It's not been stated if that transaction did or did not impact the 777x options. The state of the options is not that relevant given they still say they will take 34 777x.

airbazar wrote:
So far I see only 2 airlines and airports ([email protected] and [email protected]) that will benefit from it. A code F airplane will be a novelty for these 2 airlines at their respective hubs so they would need more gates than they currently have (I'm obviously ignoring NH's A380's which fly from NRT for this exact reason).

Just because an airport has some code F gates doesn't mean the flexibility to use Code E gates isn't a benefit. See EY's A380 visit to ATL for an example.

Redwood839 wrote:
Imagine the cost of replacing these when they slice into the tail of another aircraft or the wind of another aicraft and it clean rips them off at the "hinge" looking part.

It will happen at some point, just when and where.

The guidance we have is the 777x wing tips will be folded when in the vicinity of other aircraft.

I think folding the wingtips could help avoid some situations such as:

Image

But Code E aircraft aren't immune:

Image

So, stuff happens.

In the end, the benefits of +10% wing span will be present every flight.

The risk of long wings hitting things is always there, even for existing aircraft.


That poor BA 747 saw an early death because of that incident :(
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
It was not intended as a gimmick but I think it might end up as one. The thing that will be interesting to find out for me is how often they will be folded. The main or sole purpose as pointed out above is so the 777X doesn't require special accommodations. However, can anyone think of many or any airport where the 777X might be used that doesn't already see service by the 748i or A380?

It’s less for the airfield and more for gates. F class gates are limited at most airports, E class gates are typically plentiful (in terms of % of available gates) at any airport that would see something the size of a 777X.

I know that but that's my point. The 779 will be flown into airports that already have the gate infrastructure because they already support 748is and A380s. In fact it's becoming clear that the 779 will in most cases replace the A380/748i at most airlines. LH just replaced their outstanding options for smaller A350's in a clear sign that they're not expanding their VLA fleet.
So far I see only 2 airlines and airports ([email protected] and [email protected]) that will benefit from it. A code F airplane will be a novelty for these 2 airlines at their respective hubs so they would need more gates than they currently have (I'm obviously ignoring NH's A380's which fly from NRT for this exact reason).

Polot wrote:
I suspect folding wingtips are going to be more common in the future, it would not surprise me to see them on the 737/A320 replacements to allow for wider wingspans but use of the same gates as current narrow bodies.

I'm not so sure unless it comes as an option. Is Boeing even talking about folding wing tips for the NMA? The vast majority of narrow bodies fly short haul where wingspan is less of an issue and the extra weight is more of a detriment.


Kewr will benefit the most as it's a higher capacity aircraft and there are limited F class gates
 
Carmitage
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:22 pm

That 747 - Rolls-Royce engines were clearly to blame (probably the Trent 1000, at that)
 
airbazar
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:39 pm

Polot wrote:
Well Boeing is obviously hoping that the 777X will sell far more than the 748/A380. There is F gate infrastructure, but not a lot and it still must be shared with 748/A380s in service. You run into situations like at JFK. BA currently has no F gates at their terminal.

Airbus also expected to sell more A380's :)
And I've always heard that BA will not bring VLAs to JFK because they value frequency and premium seats so I'm not expecting to see BA 779's at JFK.

Revelation wrote:
It's not clear to me.

We are in the early days of 777x.

777x will have a long life span, and will replace many 77Ws and many 744s (ref: BA, LH).

Restricting 777x to A380/748 gates would be a big mistake, IMHO.

It's becoming clearer by the day to me. Just look at the order book for the 777X. It's nearly a 1-to-1 replacement of A380's and 748i's. I'm sure it will replace some 77W's and 744's.

The gate/airport limitation is mostly in the U.S. The rest of the world doesn't really have an issue with it. You didn't see the rest of the world complain about the A380's size either. The folding wings is a nice idea was a critical requirement to obtain orders from U.S. carriers but I'm not seeing any U.S. carriers buying it.
Will it make operations more flexible at certain airports? Sure but is it worth it for the airlines to fly around the extra weight? Not sure.
DLHAM wrote:
Remember how many 777Xs Emirates has ordered. They fly 777s into many places that never saw an A380 or 747-8 and probably never will.

Never saw dosn't mean they can't handle it. Take LIS for example. Despite the the early production end of the A380 they just announced that they will invest to make the airport A380 capable in the next 2-3 years.
EK has ~120 A380's in the books. They ordered 115 779's. I think it's pretty obvious what the role of the 779 will be at EK.

JFKIceman wrote:
Kewr will benefit the most as it's a higher capacity aircraft and there are limited F class gates

Can a code F airplane even land at EWR. I thought the main problem there was taxiway/runway separation.
Last edited by airbazar on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:45 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Another example of one of the things I find quite bizarre with this site... How long are the folding section of the wings one poster asked:
1 poster said 12 feet
1 poster said 11 feet ( well foot)
1 poster said 11.3 feet
1 poster said 15 feet

Foot? I blame auto correct. But I got the 11 right. :-)
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:46 pm

While a 10% span increase sounds small, remember that induced drag is a function of aspect ratio and aspect ratio is:

Span^2/Wing Area

So a 10% Span increase is a 20% Aspect Ratio increase and a 20% Induced Drag decrease.

Since Cruise Induced Drag is 30%-50% of Total Cruise Drag, the folding wing tips reduce Cruise Drag by 7%-10%.

This level of drag reduction combined with the flexibility of using Code E gates makes the 777X folding tip worthwhile.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:46 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
Another example of one of the things I find quite bizarre with this site... How long are the folding section of the wings one poster asked:
1 poster said 12 feet
1 poster said 11 feet ( well foot)
1 poster said 11.3 feet
1 poster said 15 feet



They are 11.3 feet. I work on this plane..

And why are they a let down? We always knew what size they would be. They fold and do their job. What did people expect??
 
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N328KF
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:47 pm

What are peoples' thoughts on whether or not airlines will fold them when not required? I.E. Let's say a 777X parks at an F gate (which will be very likely at Dubai, for example) - I could see not wanting to incur unnecessary cycles.
“In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.”
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Spetsnaz55
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:52 pm

N328KF wrote:
What are peoples' thoughts on whether or not airlines will fold them when not required? I.E. Let's say a 777X parks at an F gate (which will be very likely at Dubai, for example) - I could see not wanting to incur unnecessary cycles.



And why not fold them? Is it so hard to press a switch? Also less chance of hitting something during taxi
 
airbazar
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:01 pm

N328KF wrote:
What are peoples' thoughts on whether or not airlines will fold them when not required? I.E. Let's say a 777X parks at an F gate (which will be very likely at Dubai, for example) - I could see not wanting to incur unnecessary cycles.


Well that's the point I'm trying to make above. Most of the time it won't be needed. There's also a fact that many people are missing which is that there are actually more code F gate capacity than there is demand. Airports around the world overbuilt for the A380/748i. Go into just about any airport and you will see non-code F airplanes parked at code F gates. It happens here at BOS every day. We have 3 code F gates but only 1 less than daily A380 rotation. It happens just about everywhere. JFK has how many code F gates for how many daily rotations?
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:04 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:

There are multiple protections so you don’t accidentally takeoff with them folded.


Please describe them further. I am admittedly not in a place where I am 100% confident about Boeing quality control, given the MAX, yesterday's reports about the Air Force finding foreign debris in new Boeing planes, etc.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:05 pm

Redwood839 wrote:
Imagine the cost of replacing these when they slice into the tail of another aircraft or the wind of another aicraft and it clean rips them off at the "hinge" looking part.

It will happen at some point, just when and where.


It's aviation, everything is expensive.

On the upside, a few pins, a few bolts and and you can swap the entire thing quite easily
The last of the famous international playboys
 
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Revelation
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
EK has ~120 A380's in the books. They ordered 115 779's. I think it's pretty obvious what the role of the 779 will be at EK.

They also have 147 77W/L, and an Emir who can't afford to finish DWC, and fly to a lot of places that are not Code F ready.

I'm not sure the extra weight you mention is of much if any significance.

I am sure that being able to fit Code E gates is significant.
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Polot
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:07 pm

N328KF wrote:
What are peoples' thoughts on whether or not airlines will fold them when not required? I.E. Let's say a 777X parks at an F gate (which will be very likely at Dubai, for example) - I could see not wanting to incur unnecessary cycles.

I don’t see airlines caring much about “unnecessary cycles.” It is just a moving piece- do you see airlines retracting flaps/slats to takeoff position after landing, instead of fully stowing them, to reduce “unnecessary cycles” on the flaps? Keeping procedures consistent (eg always folding wingtips even if going to F class gate) helps prevent pilots from making mistakes and forgetting to fold the wingtips when it is actually necessary, or forgetting to unfold before takeoff.

People are making a bigger deal about this just because it is new. Fundamentally it is just a motor moving a large sheet of metal (well composites). There are tons of motors on existing aircraft that do that very action on all aircraft today. It is ensuring they lock/unlock, and that pilots can easily ID a failure, that is the biggest challenge and a large part of that is just because it will be a new procedure for pilots. But they will learn the new extra steps.
Last edited by Polot on Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:10 pm

Redwood839 wrote:
Imagine the cost of replacing these when they slice into the tail of another aircraft or the wind of another aicraft and it clean rips them off at the "hinge" looking part.

It will happen at some point, just when and where.


Yes, it will probably happen. It will be expensive to fix, but so is every repair on a commercial airliner.

The hinge probably won't be what fails though, unless they hit right on the hinge. It's a really beefy hinge.
 
YellowJ
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:46 pm

airbazar wrote:
And I've always heard that BA will not bring VLAs to JFK because they value frequency and premium seats so I'm not expecting to see BA 779's at JFK.



BA doesn't bring VLAs to JFK (I assume you mean the A380), because their terminal can not accommodate them; as their isn't any Code F gates. The 779 fitting into Code E gates, means they can utilize them if they want to at JFK.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:00 pm

Remember, gates are not the only ground handling issue. Taxiway clearances are also limiting. That's why the plan is to have the 777X tips extended only when it is on an active runway.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
JFKIceman
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:16 pm

JFKIceman wrote:
Kewr will benefit the most as it's a higher capacity aircraft and there are limited F class gates

Can a code F airplane even land at EWR. I thought the main problem there was taxiway/runway separation.[/quote]


LH brings in the 748i for the FRA-EWR-FRA rotation
 
JFKIceman
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:17 pm

YellowJ wrote:
airbazar wrote:
And I've always heard that BA will not bring VLAs to JFK because they value frequency and premium seats so I'm not expecting to see BA 779's at JFK.



BA doesn't bring VLAs to JFK (I assume you mean the A380), because their terminal can not accommodate them; as their isn't any Code F gates. The 779 fitting into Code E gates, means they can utilize them if they want to at JFK.



On top of that they are moving to terminal 8 at JFK by 2021 there is no gates that can accommodate the 744
 
AEROFAN
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Spetsnaz55 wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
Another example of one of the things I find quite bizarre with this site... How long are the folding section of the wings one poster asked:
1 poster said 12 feet
1 poster said 11 feet ( well foot)
1 poster said 11.3 feet
1 poster said 15 feet



They are 11.3 feet. I work on this plane..

And why are they a let down? We always knew what size they would be. They fold and do their job. What did people expect??


I believe we are expecting them to be 13 feet.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:47 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

There are multiple protections so you don’t accidentally takeoff with them folded.


Please describe them further. I am admittedly not in a place where I am 100% confident about Boeing quality control, given the MAX, yesterday's reports about the Air Force finding foreign debris in new Boeing planes, etc.


Now you're being a bit silly, because even without things like takeoff configuration warnings the passengers will start to scream if they notice them up. With the increased wingspan I would also imagine that the wingtips will also be visible from the flight deck.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:51 pm

SurlyBonds wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

There are multiple protections so you don’t accidentally takeoff with them folded.


Please describe them further. I am admittedly not in a place where I am 100% confident about Boeing quality control, given the MAX, yesterday's reports about the Air Force finding foreign debris in new Boeing planes, etc.


Don’t worry about the 777X design. It’s very robust. It’s a different animal.

If the wingtips are folded and you push to TO/GA Switch to select takeoff thrust, the Autothrottle is inhibited from engaging. Also, you’ll get the CONFIG WINGTIPS warning. Further, if you push the thrust levers up manually past a certain threshold, you will also get the CONFIG WINGTIPS warning.

You get a loud continuous siren with all EICAS warnings, except FIRE warnings and AUTOPILOT DISC have different aural sounds.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:56 pm

If the wingtips are folded and you push to TO/GA Switch to select takeoff thrust, the Autothrottle is inhibited from engaging

if, for example, wingtips folded acidentally (failed) just after V1? What happens with trust with TOGA switch only?
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:54 pm

Meanwhile, in the world of Murphys... :mrgreen:

Image
Image
Image

The good news is that they seem to be flying happily with folded wings...
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
jomur
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Re: The folding wings of the B777-9

Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:57 pm

So what will happen when the wing tips fail to fold and the airport is not certified for F class planes? ie taxi ways too narrow and no gates the aircraft use..It will happen at some point in the aircraft's life span.

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