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caliboy93
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Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:33 pm

Should an airline paint their aircraft with the Pan Am livery, like how BA is doing with BOAC? So that the new generation of travelers and aviation enthusiasts can experience seeing the iconic livery at the airports. I would love to see an aircraft painted with the livery, Pan Am is a pioneer in the aviation industry, just like IBM and Apple are in the tech industries.
 
Noshow
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:36 pm

 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:38 pm

Problem is no airline currently owns the pan am rights... A railroad does.

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EA CO AS
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:32 pm

caliboy93 wrote:
Should an airline paint their aircraft with the Pan Am livery, like how BA is doing with BOAC?


Airlines do commemorative liveries to honor companies that were part of their past, as in, companies that were acquired and now make up part of the current company.

While DL acquired some of PA, so did UA, and so did others in some form. There's no single entity that can claim PA, especially since their name, logo, and other IP belong to a railroad company.

So in short, no airline will be painting a plane in PA livery.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Veigar
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:36 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
Should an airline paint their aircraft with the Pan Am livery, like how BA is doing with BOAC?


Airlines do commemorative liveries to honor companies that were part of their past, as in, companies that were acquired and now make up part of the current company.

While DL acquired some of PA, so did UA, and so did others in some form. There's no single entity that can claim PA, especially since their name, logo, and other IP belong to a railroad company.

So in short, no airline will be painting a plane in PA livery.



To make matters even more depressing, DL wouldn't do it even if they owned Pan Am fully. Why do zero Northwest liveries exist... etc etc.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:37 pm

Can anyone tell me why a railroad company decided to acquire the Pan Am name and are there trains bearing the logo somewhere ? The only time I've ever seen an airline logo also on a train is the Virgin brand here in the UK. But you see Virgin franchises in all kinds of markets and products.
 
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:09 pm

Veigar wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
Should an airline paint their aircraft with the Pan Am livery, like how BA is doing with BOAC?


Airlines do commemorative liveries to honor companies that were part of their past, as in, companies that were acquired and now make up part of the current company.

While DL acquired some of PA, so did UA, and so did others in some form. There's no single entity that can claim PA, especially since their name, logo, and other IP belong to a railroad company.

So in short, no airline will be painting a plane in PA livery.



To make matters even more depressing, DL wouldn't do it even if they owned Pan Am fully. Why do zero Northwest liveries exist... etc etc.



Like it or not, DL has made a conscious decision to reflect a uniform appearance across the fleet, and part of that means no heritage liveries floating around. While some airlines have embraced them to a certain extent, I can totally understand DL's desire to stay far away from that.
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Dominion301
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:22 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me why a railroad company decided to acquire the Pan Am name and are there trains bearing the logo somewhere ? The only time I've ever seen an airline logo also on a train is the Virgin brand here in the UK. But you see Virgin franchises in all kinds of markets and products.


I’m pretty sure the railroad owned and operated the 3rd and final iteration of Pam Am the airline aka Boston & Maine Airways. They were completely incompetent with airline operations. There are blue Pan Am boxcars in North America as a result.
 
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NMSteve
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:01 pm

I can see Delta not wanting to be one of the companies identified, which acquired pieces of Pan Am. People are still angry and resentful of how Pan Am went down, and they don't want the Delta brand taking any of the heat. Their takeover of Northwest is the same. IMHO.
 
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PPVLC
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:17 pm

Some defunct brands like Pan Am should be allowed to rest, they occupy a special place in my heart and shouldn't be used by other companies as some marketing gimmick. I'm thrilled to see the BOAC livery again but it's a different case in my opinion.
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northstardc4m
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:47 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me why a railroad company decided to acquire the Pan Am name and are there trains bearing the logo somewhere ? The only time I've ever seen an airline logo also on a train is the Virgin brand here in the UK. But you see Virgin franchises in all kinds of markets and products.
Because they owned the name and needed to rebrand... So...

Basically Guilford transportation became the parent of the final airline pan am (Clipper connection) with rights to the name and logo. Guilford owned a bunch of shortline railroads and wanted to merge everything into a new railroad but the Guilford name yad some bad press attached to it... So when PA3.5 went under they rebranded the railroad

https://www.google.com/search?q=pan+am+ ... gQ_AUIESgC

They actually have done rather well since rebranding as Pan American Railways.

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TTailedTiger
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:59 pm

I'd rather see the Pan Am name take back it's rightful place on their former headquarters in NYC.
 
Max Q
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:03 am

PPVLC wrote:
Some defunct brands like Pan Am should be allowed to rest, they occupy a special place in my heart and shouldn't be used by other companies as some marketing gimmick. I'm thrilled to see the BOAC livery again but it's a different case in my opinion.



Well said, I couldn’t agree more
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EA CO AS
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:56 am

NMSteve wrote:
I can see Delta not wanting to be one of the companies identified, which acquired pieces of Pan Am. People are still angry and resentful of how Pan Am went down, and they don't want the Delta brand taking any of the heat. Their takeover of Northwest is the same. IMHO.



On the contrary, DL's decision has nothing to do with how any of the companies they acquired, in whole or in part, came to be part of their legacy. It's simply their desire to maintain a single, consistent, unadulterated brand identity. "DELTA" - and nothing else.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DENTK
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:58 am

Can we please stop trying to resurrect failed airlines? Let it go people.
 
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atypical
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:41 am

The issue isn't the railroad company owning the PanAm trademarks if they have no current involvement in aviation. This is the aviation company that prevents any other company from using the trademarks: https://panamacademy.com/
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:47 am

DENTK wrote:
Can we please stop trying to resurrect failed airlines? Let it go people.


It’s not about trying to resurrect Pan Am. They’re just suggesting someone honor the past with a heritage scheme on a plane. American has done it on a number of aircraft. Railroads like Norfolk Southern and Union Pacific have done it. It’s just a way to honor the fallen, so to speak, and remind people of the past in a fun and respectful way.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:59 am

NMSteve wrote:
I can see Delta not wanting to be one of the companies identified, which acquired pieces of Pan Am. People are still angry and resentful of how Pan Am went down

There is an absolutely negligible number of people who both (1) know/remember the specifics of PA's post-1978 struggles + eventual bankruptcy, and (2) care enough to let it affect their current aviation related spending habits.

That number is probably too low for an airline to measure, much less stress over.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:49 am

NMSteve wrote:
I can see Delta not wanting to be one of the companies identified, which acquired pieces of Pan Am. People are still angry and resentful of how Pan Am went down, and they don't want the Delta brand taking any of the heat. Their takeover of Northwest is the same. IMHO.


That was almost thirty years ago. I guess I should hope that the Chcago & Southern guys are finally cool.


EA CO AS wrote:


Like it or not, DL has made a conscious decision to reflect a uniform appearance across the fleet, and part of that means no heritage liveries floating around. While some airlines have embraced them to a certain extent, I can totally understand DL's desire to stay far away from that.


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Polot
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:06 am

atypical wrote:
The issue isn't the railroad company owning the PanAm trademarks if they have no current involvement in aviation. This is the aviation company that prevents any other company from using the trademarks: https://panamacademy.com/

Pan Am Railways not being in aviation doesn’t mean you have the right to use their logo without their permission. McDonalds also isn’t in aviation...you may be able to start McDonalds Airlines but good luck trying to use the fast food chain’s logo and branding.

You’ll notice that Pan Am Academy does not use the Pan Am meatball logo. There is a reason for that. There can’t be customer confusion between brands. If you are stealing another company’s IP it doesn’t matter if it is a different industry people will think the two companies have a relation when they don’t.
 
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:25 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

That was almost thirty years ago. I guess I should hope that the Chcago & Southern guys are finally cool.

:rotfl:
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Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
superjeff
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:50 pm

JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me why a railroad company decided to acquire the Pan Am name and are there trains bearing the logo somewhere ? The only time I've ever seen an airline logo also on a train is the Virgin brand here in the UK. But you see Virgin franchises in all kinds of markets and products.



It is a regional railroad in the Northeastern U.S. I believe it used to be the "Boston and Maine Railroad". They actually bought the rights and operated the third iteration of Pan Am for a short while flying 727-200's down parts of the East Coast for a while.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:17 pm

DENTK wrote:
Can we please stop trying to resurrect failed airlines? Let it go people.


You’re absolutely right. We should not be discussing putting heritage liveries on airliners.

Let it go, people. Let. It. Go.
-Dave


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CARST
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:32 pm

When Alaska and JetBlue will form a partnership or merge, they should try to get the PanAm rights and start operating under this name. It would be awesome. They could stay have a PanAm Alaska / West Coast division and a PanAm JetBlue / East Coast division. It would be awesome.

Then just to do me a favour, they might get some 747 classics, make them airworthy and start operating them from to Europe, Asia and on the TCON routes. ^^

Jokes aside, despite all the neysayers, I hope that we will see PanAm in the skies again at one time. The brand is just too iconic and did so much for modern aviation and air travel for the common people. PanAm and TWA.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:55 pm

Licencing would put a stop to any PAN AM livery being applied to an a/c today.
 
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atypical
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:19 pm

Polot wrote:
atypical wrote:
The issue isn't the railroad company owning the PanAm trademarks if they have no current involvement in aviation. This is the aviation company that prevents any other company from using the trademarks: https://panamacademy.com/

Pan Am Railways not being in aviation doesn’t mean you have the right to use their logo without their permission. McDonalds also isn’t in aviation...you may be able to start McDonalds Airlines but good luck trying to use the fast food chain’s logo and branding.

You’ll notice that Pan Am Academy does not use the Pan Am meatball logo. There is a reason for that. There can’t be customer confusion between brands. If you are stealing another company’s IP it doesn’t matter if it is a different industry people will think the two companies have a relation when they don’t.


There are two issues here. Using the logos and using the name. Yes you are right, you can open a MacDonalds airline but you cannot use their logos. The railroad owns the logos and the name, the aviation academy has the industry license (they may not use the meatball but a typeface and a name can also be a logo and, yes, they are licensing it). This prevents anyone from opening an airline named PanAm unless they get a license from the railroad. Yes the railroad exclusively owns the PanAm brand and the aviation academy prevents the name being used by another business in the same industry.
 
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cranberrysaus
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:28 pm

Is there any benefit to making one? With the amount of time passed and the hassle of licensing, seems like it's more trouble than it's worth.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:50 pm

Are there any aircraft in museums with the pan am livery ? It’s pribably the place for it . Or a heritage dc4 painted up or something like that ?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:58 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Veigar wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Airlines do commemorative liveries to honor companies that were part of their past, as in, companies that were acquired and now make up part of the current company.

While DL acquired some of PA, so did UA, and so did others in some form. There's no single entity that can claim PA, especially since their name, logo, and other IP belong to a railroad company.

So in short, no airline will be painting a plane in PA livery.



To make matters even more depressing, DL wouldn't do it even if they owned Pan Am fully. Why do zero Northwest liveries exist... etc etc.



Like it or not, DL has made a conscious decision to reflect a uniform appearance across the fleet, and part of that means no heritage liveries floating around. While some airlines have embraced them to a certain extent, I can totally understand DL's desire to stay far away from that.


Railroads have also been split on this issue. Norfolk Southern has a spectacular fleet of heritage locomotives that match the heritage schemes as closely as possible. Union Pacific has some okay heritage schemes that are more like a chariacture representation of their heritage railroads than exact replicas.

CSX and BNSF have chosen not to do heritage liveries.
 
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varsity
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:56 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
JannEejit wrote:
Can anyone tell me why a railroad company decided to acquire the Pan Am name and are there trains bearing the logo somewhere ? The only time I've ever seen an airline logo also on a train is the Virgin brand here in the UK. But you see Virgin franchises in all kinds of markets and products.


I’m pretty sure the railroad owned and operated the 3rd and final iteration of Pam Am the airline aka Boston & Maine Airways. They were completely incompetent with airline operations. There are blue Pan Am boxcars in North America as a result.


This is correct. They had their certificate taken away IIRC. However they are milking the brand for all it's worth... not only on boxcars but selling retro bags and other merchandise.

I don't know if they would support a logo jet even if United or Delta were to do one, but I don't really see it happening. The flying public today for the most part either doesn't have any experience with Pan Am, or associates it with PA0103 or two failed budget airlines. Since neither airline "merged" with PA outright I don't see them finding value in the association.

I did think it would have been cool for jetBlue, as "New York's hometown airline" to do one of their faux "retro jets" for the 90th anniversary, using the "hellenic" typeface but their own name and a "Clipper" name that also includes the word "Blue" (such as Wild Blue Yonder) but they apparently did not agree as I never got a reply.
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XAM2175
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Re: Special Pan Am livery

Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:57 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Railroads have also been split on this issue ... CSX and BNSF have chosen not to do heritage liveries.


BNSF don't really need to - they've still got quite a number of locomotives circulating in their pre-merger BN and ATSF liveries more than twenty-two years later :P

Most have had their logos updated but a handful are essentially untouched other than having the reporting mark patched on.

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