GalebG4
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Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:40 am

Would it make economic sense to fly 787 to Europe from MDW since it is only from 3500nm to 3900nm.
1. Is it possible(with MDW short runway-a330 flew from LTN to MCO)?
2. Is it economically viable(787-10 engine on 787-8)?
 
DENTK
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:54 am

Usable runways are rated PCN 61 /F/D/X/T, so good luck with that. Also good luck finding a gate.
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:09 am

I've wondered if the 797 is launched, and it's a widebody, and WN were to buy them, would they work at MDW for high density domestic flights? Would they have enough power to get off the 6500ft 31/13C or 6400ft 22L/4R. ATA used the 753 at MDW, which was larger than a 767-200, which the 797 size is rumored to be comparable to. I think the wingspan on a 787 or A330 would be too wide for taxiing around or for the gates. Maybe you could squeeze a widebody in on the ends of concourses A and B. And even the A321 which is a bit smaller than a 757 can't use MDW because it lacks the engine performance IIRC, where the 757 worked just fine. So you'd need a future widebody with good SFP.

There was another thread recently about widebodies at MDW in the past. Some swore they'd seen them on random occasions. I've never seen anything bigger than ATA's 753s back in the early 2000's.
 
DENTK
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:22 am

MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k. This will limit any clandestine ops the OP has imagined.
DCA on the other hand, has seen regularly scheduled widebody service (Delta 767-300) but the double tandem limit there is 360k.
In the case of both airports, widebody service is not practical due to ramp space and wingspan limitations on the taxiways.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:42 am

DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k.

Might not be as limiting as one might think at first glance; that's still enough to accommodate a 788 at MTOW (which it wouldn't be at) for a hop over the Atlantic.

Length also isn't as much of a problem as might initially be envisioned either:
BRS is the same runway length, same elevation, and similar temperature range as MDW... yet BY has no trouble doing both CUN and SFB seasonally nonstop from there, in a 787 with denser configuration (read that: "heavier weight") than most carriers'.


BA also routinely does MSY-LHR off of MSY's runway 20, which is 7000ft, despite the fact that the much-longer Rwy 11/29 is available.
Here's a video where the aircraft was over 80% full and carrying several tons cargo as per the flight crew, yet still selecting the shorter runway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxW9V0g-vY


And again, this is assuming you mean TATL. For domestic ops, these issues become even less pronounced. It's really just a matter then of blocking gate space.

So in summary:
Is it practical for longhaul? Not really.
Is it feasible? Yes.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:57 am

If an Airline wants to fly to Chicago and doesn't want to deal with ORD, GYY is an option

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LAX772LR
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:29 am

ibthebigd wrote:
GYY is an option

That continues to fail for anyone who tries it.

We're talking about an airfield that can't even make a regional jet service to (any of the) domestic superhubs work... who's going to send a widebody there, from anywhere?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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gunsontheroof
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:35 am

I think this can safely be filed under "if the answer was yes, someone would be flying it." Chicago is a huge market, but MDW has it's limitations. Aside from infastructure issues, you're looking at virtually nothing in terms of connectivity (when there are two alliances hubbed up north) unless you cozy up to WN. Not really a recipe for filling a widebody with any regularity. I'm not sure I can think of an operator that would take a shot at this.
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Boof02671
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:38 am

If it made economic sense, don’t you think it would be happening already?
 
DENTK
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:40 am

The only int'l airline that could fly in/out of MDW that makes remotely any sense in terms of range, ramp space, and runway limitations is Icelandair on the B752 to KEF. Alas they already serve ORD.
 
Galvan316
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:47 pm

Can the A321 fly in and out of MDW? Would it be pushing the limits as the 753 did?
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jagraham
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:59 pm

DENTK wrote:
The only int'l airline that could fly in/out of MDW that makes remotely any sense in terms of range, ramp space, and runway limitations is Icelandair on the B752 to KEF. Alas they already serve ORD.


There is Porter :stirthepot:
Seriously though, the 797 could be made to work. Although to work well it would have to have folding wings. To me, it would be the only reason to have 50k lbs thrust engines on a 763 sized aircraft. And that is what the CFM joint venture has been modified to do.
 
ScottB
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:34 pm

jagraham wrote:
Seriously though, the 797 could be made to work. Although to work well it would have to have folding wings. To me, it would be the only reason to have 50k lbs thrust engines on a 763 sized aircraft. And that is what the CFM joint venture has been modified to do.


If WN has any involvement with the 797 project, I suspect that Boeing would ensure that a 797 variant has adequate performance to fly transatlantic from MDW. I have no doubt it will be technically (though not legally) possible from LGA. I don't think folding wings will be necessary at MDW given that there are several gates (mostly at corners) which could handle small widebodies. The biggest hurdle would likely be extending the sterile international arrivals corridor out to the end of the A concourse as the gates currently connected to the FIS are deep in the alleyway between A and B. The FIS would almost certainly need to be expanded as well.
 
elbandgeek
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:40 pm

ScottB wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Seriously though, the 797 could be made to work. Although to work well it would have to have folding wings. To me, it would be the only reason to have 50k lbs thrust engines on a 763 sized aircraft. And that is what the CFM joint venture has been modified to do.


If WN has any involvement with the 797 project, I suspect that Boeing would ensure that a 797 variant has adequate performance to fly transatlantic from MDW. I have no doubt it will be technically (though not legally) possible from LGA. I don't think folding wings will be necessary at MDW given that there are several gates (mostly at corners) which could handle small widebodies. The biggest hurdle would likely be extending the sterile international arrivals corridor out to the end of the A concourse as the gates currently connected to the FIS are deep in the alleyway between A and B. The FIS would almost certainly need to be expanded as well.

Add me to the "if WN wants it they'll make it happen" stance with the 797 and personally I'd love to see it. As for expanding FIS I think the best option they have would be adding a sterile connector to the A4 satellite. There's plenty of space on the apron and they could probably even have a dual bridge setup if they wanted. Interestingly enough if you go on Google maps it already shows a lower level that's labeled US Customs but assume that's just a mistake, unless I missed something.
 
jagraham
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:01 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Seriously though, the 797 could be made to work. Although to work well it would have to have folding wings. To me, it would be the only reason to have 50k lbs thrust engines on a 763 sized aircraft. And that is what the CFM joint venture has been modified to do.


If WN has any involvement with the 797 project, I suspect that Boeing would ensure that a 797 variant has adequate performance to fly transatlantic from MDW. I have no doubt it will be technically (though not legally) possible from LGA. I don't think folding wings will be necessary at MDW given that there are several gates (mostly at corners) which could handle small widebodies. The biggest hurdle would likely be extending the sterile international arrivals corridor out to the end of the A concourse as the gates currently connected to the FIS are deep in the alleyway between A and B. The FIS would almost certainly need to be expanded as well.

Add me to the "if WN wants it they'll make it happen" stance with the 797 and personally I'd love to see it. As for expanding FIS I think the best option they have would be adding a sterile connector to the A4 satellite. There's plenty of space on the apron and they could probably even have a dual bridge setup if they wanted. Interestingly enough if you go on Google maps it already shows a lower level that's labeled US Customs but assume that's just a mistake, unless I missed something.


I agree with all comments. Although MDW is a tight place to maneuver a plane, and the 797, when it comes, is supposed to be almost indistinguishable from a 787 on the flightline. Which means approximately 787 wingspan. There would be taxi problems due to that wingspan. It can be made to work without folding wings. At the end of the concourses as others have pointed out. That could work for international service. But for flying to high demand places like LGA, DCA, LAX, only being able to use a couple of gates is problematic. IF WN is to use this plane, they need folding wings of some sort.
 
ScottB
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:29 pm

jagraham wrote:
It can be made to work without folding wings. At the end of the concourses as others have pointed out. That could work for international service. But for flying to high demand places like LGA, DCA, LAX, only being able to use a couple of gates is problematic. IF WN is to use this plane, they need folding wings of some sort.


Nah, I think it'd be possible to have a half-dozen 797s at the MDW terminal simultaneously without blocking more than one or two gates. The terminal has 43 gates and the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC). As long as the gates turn over about every hour-and-a-half or so, the airfield is the limiting factor. There aren't many domestic markets out of MDW where WN would prefer to offer 250 seats/flight instead of frequency.

If WN ever wanted to go long-haul from MDW, the best solution is probably a C concourse rebuild to convert to international gates that also converts most of the low-numbered B gates on the north side to international.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:28 pm

From what I can figure out, airlines fly the smallest aircraft that has sufficinet range for a route unless there is some external factor which would be..

1) Slot constrained airport so they cannot just send more aircraft so substitute in a larger airplane with excess range or makes no sense to just spam lots of little planes.

2) Excess demand tied to point 1 or due to timing ie demand at a certain time of day requires a larger plane only at that specific time.

3) Aircraft availability, Because the airline has this aircraft on propery and has to use it for something.

So i think it is unlikely there is a demand for a larger plane, the NB capability available today fills a lot of the lower end of the traditional WB area.
 
RJNUT
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:37 pm

DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k. This will limit any clandestine ops the OP has imagined.
DCA on the other hand, has seen regularly scheduled widebody service (Delta 767-300) but the double tandem limit there is 360k.
In the case of both airports, widebody service is not practical due to ramp space and wingspan limitations on the taxiways.

I don't believe that is true of DCA having that type of scheduled service.
 
IADCA
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:46 pm

RJNUT wrote:
DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k. This will limit any clandestine ops the OP has imagined.
DCA on the other hand, has seen regularly scheduled widebody service (Delta 767-300) but the double tandem limit there is 360k.
In the case of both airports, widebody service is not practical due to ramp space and wingspan limitations on the taxiways.

I don't believe that is true of DCA having that type of scheduled service.


They haven't done it often (most famous was a one-off for the Obama inauguration), but DL has indeed operated 763 into DCA from ATL as sub for 752 on regularly scheduled flights. There are pictures and videos on multiple sites.
 
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:54 pm

IADCA wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k. This will limit any clandestine ops the OP has imagined.
DCA on the other hand, has seen regularly scheduled widebody service (Delta 767-300) but the double tandem limit there is 360k.
In the case of both airports, widebody service is not practical due to ramp space and wingspan limitations on the taxiways.

I don't believe that is true of DCA having that type of scheduled service.


They haven't done it often (most famous was a one-off for the Obama inauguration), but DL has indeed operated 763 into DCA from ATL as sub for 752 on regularly scheduled flights. There are pictures and videos on multiple sites.

Correct. I was just in disagreement with the "regularly scheduled widebody service..." statement.
 
IADCA
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:09 pm

RJNUT wrote:
IADCA wrote:
RJNUT wrote:
I don't believe that is true of DCA having that type of scheduled service.


They haven't done it often (most famous was a one-off for the Obama inauguration), but DL has indeed operated 763 into DCA from ATL as sub for 752 on regularly scheduled flights. There are pictures and videos on multiple sites.

Correct. I was just in disagreement with the "regularly scheduled widebody service..." statement.


It's a semantic disagreement, but the wording is ambiguous as to whether "regularly scheduled widebody service" means "regularly scheduled as a widebody" or "a widebody operating regularly scheduled service." I'd default to your interpretation as well, but I don't find the other reading unreasonable, which is probably what's leading to the confusion.
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:19 pm

I think you’re better off trying MKE
 
DENTK
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:25 pm

The Delta 767 DCA service weren't upgrades. They were scheduled as such months in advance.
 
Elementalism
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:27 am

Galvan316 wrote:
Can the A321 fly in and out of MDW? Would it be pushing the limits as the 753 did?


Doubt it has the engine performance.

Concourse C could potentially take a widebody? I see Delta parking a 757-200 in C every time I am in Chicago. Which is about 1-2 times a month.

The question is, can a wide body get out of MDW?
 
elbandgeek
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:47 am

ScottB wrote:
the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC).


- Close 55th st and widen Laramie up to Archer to reroute traffic
- Bulldoze the red lots
- Extend 4L/22R northeast

No more staggering takeoffs and landings should open up that field capacity quite a bit, as long as we're gonna go armchair CDA director here.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 am

the short answer is NO ! With the current MDW configuration.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:40 am

ScottB wrote:
jagraham wrote:
It can be made to work without folding wings. At the end of the concourses as others have pointed out. That could work for international service. But for flying to high demand places like LGA, DCA, LAX, only being able to use a couple of gates is problematic. IF WN is to use this plane, they need folding wings of some sort.


Nah, I think it'd be possible to have a half-dozen 797s at the MDW terminal simultaneously without blocking more than one or two gates. The terminal has 43 gates and the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC). As long as the gates turn over about every hour-and-a-half or so, the airfield is the limiting factor. There aren't many domestic markets out of MDW where WN would prefer to offer 250 seats/flight instead of frequency.

If WN ever wanted to go long-haul from MDW, the best solution is probably a C concourse rebuild to convert to international gates that also converts most of the low-numbered B gates on the north side to international.


The issue isn't so much terminal space as terminal space where FIS is. IINM - and I've slept a few times since the days of the TZ hub - there are adjacent gates out at the end of B that can take 753s simultaneously. Two 753s take up about as much space as something like a 738 next to a 797. The trouble is that the current international gates are in a pretty tight alley. NW parked 753s at A5 and/or A7, but I'm not sure that anything that large can access any of the international gates. I cannot recall TZ using 757s internationally.
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royalswazi
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:06 am

Widebodies? Only if they flew to Detroit.
 
Mexicana757
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:57 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jagraham wrote:
It can be made to work without folding wings. At the end of the concourses as others have pointed out. That could work for international service. But for flying to high demand places like LGA, DCA, LAX, only being able to use a couple of gates is problematic. IF WN is to use this plane, they need folding wings of some sort.


Nah, I think it'd be possible to have a half-dozen 797s at the MDW terminal simultaneously without blocking more than one or two gates. The terminal has 43 gates and the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC). As long as the gates turn over about every hour-and-a-half or so, the airfield is the limiting factor. There aren't many domestic markets out of MDW where WN would prefer to offer 250 seats/flight instead of frequency.

If WN ever wanted to go long-haul from MDW, the best solution is probably a C concourse rebuild to convert to international gates that also converts most of the low-numbered B gates on the north side to international.


The issue isn't so much terminal space as terminal space where FIS is. IINM - and I've slept a few times since the days of the TZ hub - there are adjacent gates out at the end of B that can take 753s simultaneously. Two 753s take up about as much space as something like a 738 next to a 797. The trouble is that the current international gates are in a pretty tight alley. NW parked 753s at A5 and/or A7, but I'm not sure that anything that large can access any of the international gates. I cannot recall TZ using 757s internationally.


ATA did use the 757s on international flights. TZ used the 752 and 753 for flights to GDL. Other airlines that had international flights on the 757 from MDW were Mexicana and Ryan International Airlines( Funjet charters). Gates A2 and A3 are capable of handling the 757.

And as you said, the FIS at MDW doesn't have enough space. Its a tight sqeeze when two flights arrive within minutes of each other. Don't want to imagine how it is when all three FIS gates are in use. :crowded: There's only one small baggage claim to handle international flights. If there were to be any widebody international service in the future the FIS foot print has to be expanded. But is the city willing to expand the runways a few 100 feet or purchase land around the airport to get widebody service while their attention is at investing money at the ORD21 project...
 
SkyVoice
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:33 am

I remember the 757s at MDW. 727-200s, too. But, I think that the chances of an airline starting widebody service at Midway are about as good as the rebuilding & reopening of Meigs Field is.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:05 am

Galvan316 wrote:
Can the A321 fly in and out of MDW? Would it be pushing the limits as the 753 did?


Those aircraft both should have no trouble at all. They don't need that much runway length.

With wide bodies the wingspan is an issue, the runway length should in theory be sufficient but doesn't leave any margin for errors. A rejected take-off would likely overshoot the runway.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:44 am

Elementalism wrote:
Galvan316 wrote:
Can the A321 fly in and out of MDW? Would it be pushing the limits as the 753 did?


Doubt it has the engine performance.

Concourse C could potentially take a widebody? I see Delta parking a 757-200 in C every time I am in Chicago. Which is about 1-2 times a month.

The question is, can a wide body get out of MDW?


The DL 752s are typically sports charters (mostly NBA/NHL/MLB), considering how close the United Center is to MDW compared to ORD. However, when the Dallas Stars or Dallas Mavericks play in Chicago AND fly in on their chartered 767, they'll use ORD instead of MDW.
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lat41
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:31 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k.

Might not be as limiting as one might think at first glance; that's still enough to accommodate a 788 at MTOW (which it wouldn't be at) for a hop over the Atlantic.

Length also isn't as much of a problem as might initially be envisioned either:



BA also routinely does MSY-LHR off of MSY's runway 20, which is 7000ft, despite the fact that the much-longer Rwy 11/29 is available.
Here's a video where the aircraft was over 80% full and carrying several tons cargo as per the flight crew, yet still selecting


And again, this is assuming you mean TATL. For domestic ops, these issues become even less pronounced. It's really just a matter then of blocking gate space.

So in summary:
Is it practical for longhaul? Not really.
Is it feasible? Yes.

A significant difference is that if winds are wrong, the runway contaminated etc., there is another longer MSY runway to chose. Same goes for the 7000 footer at BOS. At MDW, if your runway is not going to work due to winds, weather, the flight can't go.
 
midway7
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:06 pm

There was another thread recently about widebodies at MDW in the past. Some swore they'd seen them on random occasions. I've never seen anything bigger than ATA's 753s back in the early 2000's.[/quote]


I believe the only documented widebody operation at MDW was an Eastern A300 that did a demo flight in the 1970's. There is a picture of this, including from on board the aircraft departing then 31L (now 31C).

Lots of speculation about a visit by a TZ L10, but I do not think it has been confirmed by anyone.

The 757 ops at MDW were really a non event. The aircraft has a lot of power on it, so it handled MDW real well. In fact, many departures would rotate halfway down the runway and be well over the fence on climbout.

The 727's were the most fun to watch. They would use a lot of runway, especially in hot conditions.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:00 am

lat41 wrote:
A significant difference is that if winds are wrong, the runway contaminated etc., there is another longer MSY runway to chose. Same goes for the 7000 footer at BOS. At MDW, if your runway is not going to work due to winds, weather, the flight can't go.

It can still go, just has to shed payload... which admittedly can hurt revenues, but then again, isn't much different than what widebodies at the likes of BRS or DUB have to do in similar circumstances.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:09 am

elbandgeek wrote:
ScottB wrote:
the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC).


- Close 55th st and widen Laramie up to Archer to reroute traffic
- Bulldoze the red lots
- Extend 4L/22R northeast

No more staggering takeoffs and landings should open up that field capacity quite a bit, as long as we're gonna go armchair CDA director here.


Not gonna happen, ever. Why does MDW need wide-body service anyway? They don't.
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DenverTed
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:20 am

Would it make sense to fly a twin aisle, 200 or 225 pax from MDW? I think so. Might require folding wingtips, or a new gate C+, at a 44m wingspan width.
 
GalebG4
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Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:23 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:
ScottB wrote:
the most serious capacity limitation is the airfield since the max AAR is 36/hour (but 28 in IMC).


- Close 55th st and widen Laramie up to Archer to reroute traffic
- Bulldoze the red lots
- Extend 4L/22R northeast

No more staggering takeoffs and landings should open up that field capacity quite a bit, as long as we're gonna go armchair CDA director here.


Not gonna happen, ever. Why does MDW need wide-body service anyway? They don't.

What about southwest? Biggest southwest base in USA? Connections to 60 destinations. Chicago as city of a lot European migrants. No competition on the airport directly with wide-body. NMA would probably make much more sense than 787 or a330neo. Long haul low cost? Europe not so far, BWI, MDW and you have extremely competitive player for European long haul market. Americans generally like Southwest.
 
muralir
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:38 pm

Mexicana757 wrote:
If there were to be any widebody international service in the future the FIS foot print has to be expanded. But is the city willing to expand the runways a few 100 feet or purchase land around the airport to get widebody service while their attention is at investing money at the ORD21 project...


The O'Hare expansion is entirely based off landing fees (even the debt for the expansion issued the city is backed by future landing fees). So technically it doesn't affect mdw expansion, which would be done entirely off its own revenue. Which is why there*is* significant expansion going on at MDW. It just happens to be inside the terminal, where they're expanding security lanes and retail space.

I'd actually love to see airfield expansion at MDW as well. I suspect Southwest is shifting flights from MDW to other hubs due to capacity constraints. But I do think the right approach is fixing bottlenecks within the terminal space before embarking on a big runway reconfiguration.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:13 pm

GalebG4 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:

- Close 55th st and widen Laramie up to Archer to reroute traffic
- Bulldoze the red lots
- Extend 4L/22R northeast

No more staggering takeoffs and landings should open up that field capacity quite a bit, as long as we're gonna go armchair CDA director here.


Not gonna happen, ever. Why does MDW need wide-body service anyway? They don't.

What about southwest? Biggest southwest base in USA? Connections to 60 destinations. Chicago as city of a lot European migrants. No competition on the airport directly with wide-body. NMA would probably make much more sense than 787 or a330neo. Long haul low cost? Europe not so far, BWI, MDW and you have extremely competitive player for European long haul market. Americans generally like Southwest.


Yeah, this isn't going to happen either.
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ILS28ORD
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:14 pm

muralir wrote:
Mexicana757 wrote:
If there were to be any widebody international service in the future the FIS foot print has to be expanded. But is the city willing to expand the runways a few 100 feet or purchase land around the airport to get widebody service while their attention is at investing money at the ORD21 project...


The O'Hare expansion is entirely based off landing fees (even the debt for the expansion issued the city is backed by future landing fees). So technically it doesn't affect mdw expansion, which would be done entirely off its own revenue. Which is why there*is* significant expansion going on at MDW. It just happens to be inside the terminal, where they're expanding security lanes and retail space.

I'd actually love to see airfield expansion at MDW as well. I suspect Southwest is shifting flights from MDW to other hubs due to capacity constraints. But I do think the right approach is fixing bottlenecks within the terminal space before embarking on a big runway reconfiguration.


The airfield probably can't ever be expanded physically beyond its current boundaries. What probably could happen is demolish 13L/31R, turn it into a taxiway, and expand the terminal by lengthening both A and B concourses to extend into where 13L/31R currently is. Mabye that's an option if the 797 to WN ever becomes a reality. They could probably get 10-20 total new gates squeezed in, with a few being for small widebodies.
 
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DL717
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:01 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DENTK wrote:
MDW has a maximum weight bearing capacity for double tandem bogies at 250k.

Might not be as limiting as one might think at first glance; that's still enough to accommodate a 788 at MTOW (which it wouldn't be at) for a hop over the Atlantic.

Length also isn't as much of a problem as might initially be envisioned either:
BRS is the same runway length, same elevation, and similar temperature range as MDW... yet BY has no trouble doing both CUN and SFB seasonally nonstop from there, in a 787 with denser configuration (read that: "heavier weight") than most carriers'.


BA also routinely does MSY-LHR off of MSY's runway 20, which is 7000ft, despite the fact that the much-longer Rwy 11/29 is available.
Here's a video where the aircraft was over 80% full and carrying several tons cargo as per the flight crew, yet still selecting the shorter runway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmxW9V0g-vY


And again, this is assuming you mean TATL. For domestic ops, these issues become even less pronounced. It's really just a matter then of blocking gate space.

So in summary:
Is it practical for longhaul? Not really.
Is it feasible? Yes.


A 787 would destroy that runway. MTOW is 130 ACN on a 61D PCN Runway. Weight limit is about 350k. Nevermind there isn’t a place to park it.

https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... df#page158
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luckyone
Posts: 2772
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Would it make economic sense to fly wide body from MDW

Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:39 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
If an Airline wants to fly to Chicago and doesn't want to deal with ORD, GYY is an option

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Not while the money in Chicago is either in the city which is well-connected via CTA to both MDW and ORD, or in the northern and western suburbs which have easy access to both, and frankly O’Hare is much easier to get to from either area. Gary? Forget it. Too far. Transit to the city is pretty much not an option unless you want to take Metra to Gary and then a cab—good luck finding one. Driving the whole way requires you to drive through some highly trafficked areas regardless of the time of day. Not enough money around it to support the critical mass needed to maintain the service. Not happening.

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