kipfilet
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:25 pm

Fantastic -- especially IAH! I fly a lot to Portugal from STL, and was already very happy with them adding ORD. This adds yet another potentially cheap way of getting to LIS :)
 
lavalampluva
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:25 pm

flymco753 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
They should be showing love to DTW, since there are more Portuguese in Detroit than Portugal.

:stirthepot:


I assume this is sarcasm, because it's not factual.
They most definitely seem sarcastic, because the real amount is minuscule.

It was meant as sarcasm. There is just a poster on a.net who feels every time a foreign carrier does any kind of expansion, in the U.S., DTW should be on the short list.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
1836Sam
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:29 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I doubt LAD is so profitable today. Iberia and British cancelled LAD recently and if I recall correctly Emirates reduced frequencies. The days of carriers begging for new flights to LAD are long gone.

Of course in the case of Portugal there is a large community of Portuguese economic migrants in Angola and many Angolans in Portugal and in Europe. But that is VFR traffic, not oil exec.


Reduction in supply leads to . . . [FILL IN THE BLANK].
 
klm617
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:44 pm

If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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SASViking
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:09 pm

avek00 wrote:
I like TP, but I'm not so sure the aggressive North American expansion will work out well. For starters, TP lacks a JV with a North American partner, limiting competitive feed opportunities beyond (most of) its USA/CAN destinations. Also, connecting times at LIS have to get much more competitive -- using the new IAD-LIS flight as an example, over half of the more popular destinations for US-origin travelers require a LIS layover in excess of three hours most days of the week (and don't get me started on the likes of WAW, CPH, HEL, BUD, etc. where TP mostly runs red-eyes, so 10-15 hour waits at LIS would be necessary).


TP do not operate red-eyes to CPH and, as far as I know, never have.

TP754 LIS-CPH 07:00-11:35 (summer)
TP756 LIS-CPH 10:10-14:55 (winter)
TP752 LIS-CPH 18:15-22:55 (year round)

TP753 CPH-LIS 06:00-08:45 (year round)
TP757 CPH-LIS 12:20-15:10 (summer)
TP757 CPH-LIS 15:40-18:20 (winter)
Types flown: A319, A320, A32N, A321, A332, A333, A343, AT43, AT75, AT76, B717, B732, B735, B736, B737, B738, B752, B753, CRJ9, DC10, DH4D, DHC3, E135, E145, E175, E190, E195, F100, MD11, MD81, MD82, MD87, RJ1H
 
Pyrex
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:17 pm

kipfilet wrote:
Fantastic -- especially IAH! I fly a lot to Portugal from STL, and was already very happy with them adding ORD. This adds yet another potentially cheap way of getting to LIS :)


Wouldn't EWR, IAD or JFK be better options, though? Less back-tracking.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
behramjee
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:24 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
I doubt LAD is so profitable today. Iberia and British cancelled LAD recently and if I recall correctly Emirates reduced frequencies. The days of carriers begging for new flights to LAD are long gone.

Of course in the case of Portugal there is a large community of Portuguese economic migrants in Angola and many Angolans in Portugal and in Europe. But that is VFR traffic, not oil exec.


EK reinstated daily LAD-DXB many months ago.

Though in the current climate TP may not be net profitable at LAD, if they can get their newly planned IAH-LIS service to connect both ways conveniently then that will be highly welcomed as it will be the only daily one stop service between the two cities along with being the fastest !

IAH will also help feed some of their other African oil routes but not that much volume to be excited about. ATL will indeed be a big disaster for them whilst LAX target shall be EU + North Africa bound traffic so purely volume driven.
Last edited by behramjee on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
avek00
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:25 pm

SASViking wrote:
avek00 wrote:
I like TP, but I'm not so sure the aggressive North American expansion will work out well. For starters, TP lacks a JV with a North American partner, limiting competitive feed opportunities beyond (most of) its USA/CAN destinations. Also, connecting times at LIS have to get much more competitive -- using the new IAD-LIS flight as an example, over half of the more popular destinations for US-origin travelers require a LIS layover in excess of three hours most days of the week (and don't get me started on the likes of WAW, CPH, HEL, BUD, etc. where TP mostly runs red-eyes, so 10-15 hour waits at LIS would be necessary).


TP do not operate red-eyes to CPH and, as far as I know, never have.

TP754 LIS-CPH 07:00-11:35 (summer)
TP756 LIS-CPH 10:10-14:55 (winter)
TP752 LIS-CPH 18:15-22:55 (year round)

TP753 CPH-LIS 06:00-08:45 (year round)
TP757 CPH-LIS 12:20-15:10 (summer)
TP757 CPH-LIS 15:40-18:20 (winter)


Correct, and when connecting off of most of TAP's USA-LIS flights, the layover for heading to CPH would be unacceptably long just the same.
Live life to the fullest.
 
777Mech
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
 
brons2
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:27 pm

upperdeckfan wrote:
OTOH, it seems to me they are overlooking LatAm, I see EZE, LIM and SCL with some potential from LIS, specially LIM and SCL where there are no current non-stop Star to Europe.


TAP flies to 10 cities in Brazil, and partners with Gol. I'd say that's a pretty good presence for a 2nd tier European airline.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
N292UX
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:37 pm

I find ATL to be a really interesting add, especially considering they're a Star Alliance Carrier, not a SkyTeam carrier. I would've thought that places like DEN, MCO, SEA, and maybe places like DFW and PHL. I could be wrong though. I think there's definitely a chance they can get LIS-ATL to work.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:53 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

I assume this is sarcasm, because it's not factual.
They most definitely seem sarcastic, because the real amount is minuscule.

It was meant as sarcasm. There is just a poster on a.net who feels every time a foreign carrier does any kind of expansion, in the U.S., DTW should be on the short list.


I though so. I know of whom you speak.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
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flymco753
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:00 pm

777Mech wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
Money-losingly low. A whopping 16 per day combined.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:03 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
They most definitely seem sarcastic, because the real amount is minuscule.

It was meant as sarcasm. There is just a poster on a.net who feels every time a foreign carrier does any kind of expansion, in the U.S., DTW should be on the short list.


I though so. I know of whom you speak.


...and not a couple posts later he chimed in with a suggestion of DTW-LIS, right on cue!
 
kipfilet
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:58 pm

Pyrex wrote:
kipfilet wrote:
Fantastic -- especially IAH! I fly a lot to Portugal from STL, and was already very happy with them adding ORD. This adds yet another potentially cheap way of getting to LIS :)


Wouldn't EWR, IAD or JFK be better options, though? Less back-tracking.

I anticipate less demand on IAH and hence lower prices.
Not sure if these are launch deals, but I have purchased ORD-LIS and ORD-OPO roundtrips, both for later this year, for less than $600 each.
These are great deals, especially when UA asks me an average of $2000 for a STL-LIS roundtrip via EWR or IAD. I can drive to ORD from STL, or get a $250 roundtrip on UA.
STL to JFK can't be done on a single ticket as far as I know.
 
luckyone
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 pm

airbazar wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
burnsie28 wrote:
TAP has an extensive EURO network and given that their fares are usually less than most other carriers I have seen I wouldn't be surprised to see them make ATL work.


Keep in mind that DL don't fly ATL-LIS evan though ATL has a much much much large US/Caribbean/SouthAm network when compared with TAP Euro network.

If DL can't make profit of ATL-LIS I doubt TP will.


Here we go, if DL can't make it no one else can. People here act like ATL is untouchable. DL is having a hard time filling a 752 from BOS in peak Summer time and at lower fares than TP, while TP fills an A330 to the rim. And BOS is a Delta hub.
I don't think they will have much of a problem filling an A321 3 or 4x a week from ATL. I also don't think DL will feel as threatened by TP as they would by a larger carrier and feel the need to "protect its turf". I feel that ATL-Europe is underserved, If people a willing to fly ATL-Europe via IST that should tell you that there is more demand than supply for ATL-Europe.
I'm skeptical about IAH and to some extent LAX too. Those are A330 routes and that's more seats to fill but I'm sure they've done their math and seen what kind of connecting traffic they are getting today via UA and B6 feed.

Couple thoughts here:
1. If ATL has a Portuguese community it’s statistically insignificant, unlike the example you provided, Boston, which has a large Portuguese-speaking community. Delta also is new on the route as opposed to TAP which has been there a while, giving it incumbent status and reaping the benefits of providing Portuguese speakers with a more comfortable environment, or a time least the thought of it.
2. ATL is most certainly not underserved from Europe. As someone who grew up in ATL and flew Delta extensively across the pond, I’m not sure what metric you’re using for ATL being underserved to ANYWHERE really other than Oceania, considering both the market size and the Delta hub. Unless of course your metric is number of non-Delta airlines serving ATL. If that’s the case, then perhaps there is some merit to the claim that the Delta hub makes ATL a challenging market for some providers. Or the market isn’t nearly as large as the hub.
3. TK isn’t moving a lot of people to Western Europe with those levels of backtracking. Maybe a few backpackers, sure. Their profits aren’t suggesting otherwise.
4. Lisbon isn’t well situated to be a transatlantic hub, much less one for the US Southeast which doesn’t have much of a Portuguese population, nor many cultural or business ties to Portugal. ATL will struggle without an O&D base or a partner hub.
 
kipfilet
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:44 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 pm

flymco753 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
Money-losingly low. A whopping 16 per day combined.

Just curious: where do you get this data from?
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:01 pm

flymco753 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
Money-losingly low. A whopping 16 per day combined.



What are the ATL-LIS numbers ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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flymco753
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:35 pm

kipfilet wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
777Mech wrote:

What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
Money-losingly low. A whopping 16 per day combined.

Just curious: where do you get this data from?
My colleague from school has a subscription to the MIDT data.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
jfk777
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:37 pm

TAP in Atlanta, a SkyTeam city ? What are they smoking in Lisbon ? Houston, Chicago and Montreal make sense since the hub airline is a Star alliance airline. TAP seems to be trying every route they never flew and see what sticks, they are going to get indigestion. Its nice they are moving beyond their Boston and New York "comfort zone", MIA was a great addition a few years ago too. LAX & SFO, who knows but that is a long way to fly a A330-900 to find out. Good Luck to them, Singapore, Tokyo, Seoul & TPE would love to see them and those are Star hubs too.
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:40 pm

brons2 wrote:
upperdeckfan wrote:
OTOH, it seems to me they are overlooking LatAm, I see EZE, LIM and SCL with some potential from LIS, specially LIM and SCL where there are no current non-stop Star to Europe.


TAP flies to 10 cities in Brazil, and partners with Gol. I'd say that's a pretty good presence for a 2nd tier European airline.


Here we go.... is it necessary to say that by "overlooking LatAm" I didn't mean to include Brazil which is a TP niche market due to historical ties? Really necessary to be clarified?
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
alexdelzotto1
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:42 pm

Thomaas wrote:
ac33e wrote:
YUL is great, but AC & JV will be competing for that same feed with TP. This may mean loss of connectivity on AC in Canada, which may not make it so desirable. The O&D is in large part served by TS on this route, with AC probably having to rely on connecting traffic to fill up the route. TP may just as well be the one who doesn't manage to keep afloat on this route.


AC has caved on YYZ-LIS, serving it 5x weekly instead of daily like they've done for the last few summers before TAP started the route. I wonder what will happen once TAP is on YUL-LIS. I'd see AC cancelling the 3x weekly route and bringing YYZ-LIS back to daily as I doubt there's enough demand for 3 airlines. YUL-WAW or YUL-BUD would be a great way to redeploy the capacity.


I doubt AC would give up the route especially with TS serving it 5x weekly, AC has stated that they are very happy with LIS operations and the only problem is that LIS is so congested that they can't expand service.

As much as I'd love to see a YUL-WAW, I think LOT is the only chance at this route.
 
airbazar
Posts: 9569
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:58 pm

luckyone wrote:
2. ATL is most certainly not underserved from Europe. As someone who grew up in ATL and flew Delta extensively across the pond, I’m not sure what metric you’re using for ATL being underserved to ANYWHERE really

It lacks airline competition. No LX, no TP, no IB, no DY, no FI, no AZ. Basically if someone wants to travel to Europe and beyond they're stuck with the usual overpriced options.
luckyone wrote:
3. TK isn’t moving a lot of people to Western Europe with those levels of backtracking. Maybe a few backpackers, sure. Their profits aren’t suggesting otherwise.

TP will serve the same "backpackers" but without the backtracking.
luckyone wrote:
4. Lisbon isn’t well situated to be a transatlantic hub,

Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm
 
maverick4002
Posts: 97
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:20 pm

I have heard only horror stories about them in the past few weeks including their apparently ridiculous baggage policy and fees. The travel blog world isnt favorable to them right now.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:53 pm

airbazar wrote:
luckyone wrote:
2. ATL is most certainly not underserved from Europe. As someone who grew up in ATL and flew Delta extensively across the pond, I’m not sure what metric you’re using for ATL being underserved to ANYWHERE really

It lacks airline competition. No LX, no TP, no IB, no DY, no FI, no AZ. Basically if someone wants to travel to Europe and beyond they're stuck with the usual overpriced options.
luckyone wrote:
3. TK isn’t moving a lot of people to Western Europe with those levels of backtracking. Maybe a few backpackers, sure. Their profits aren’t suggesting otherwise.

TP will serve the same "backpackers" but without the backtracking.
luckyone wrote:
4. Lisbon isn’t well situated to be a transatlantic hub,

Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

1. IB will have the same problem as TAP. No partner. Delta has a lock on ATL-origin traffic and much more feed. LX is owned (obviously) by LH who serves ATL. Swissair used to serve ATL, but they had a partnership with Delta at the time. AZ is part of a JV with Delta so the metal doesn’t matter. FI is a flow carrier that’s isn’t going to attract connecting traffic away from the ATL connecting hub. DY...I’ll give you that, maybe. Either way I provided the option that your complaint is based on lack of airlines. So I’ll say it again, the market isn’t as large. And to suggest that ATL is underserved is preposterous.
2. My point was backpackers aren’t going to make you any money. TP isn’t going to prove me wrong.
3. Fair observation, though I suspect you missed my interntion. I meant more than geography. I meant local market size (with respect to the SE, most Portuguese communities are in the NE), airline network overlaps (with respect to ATL), cultural ties etc. LIS doesn’t meet those criteria. If it were just geography Lisbon would already be a powerhouse TATL hub. It’s clearly not.
 
klm617
Posts: 4339
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:11 am

luckyone wrote:
airbazar wrote:
luckyone wrote:
2. ATL is most certainly not underserved from Europe. As someone who grew up in ATL and flew Delta extensively across the pond, I’m not sure what metric you’re using for ATL being underserved to ANYWHERE really

It lacks airline competition. No LX, no TP, no IB, no DY, no FI, no AZ. Basically if someone wants to travel to Europe and beyond they're stuck with the usual overpriced options.
luckyone wrote:
3. TK isn’t moving a lot of people to Western Europe with those levels of backtracking. Maybe a few backpackers, sure. Their profits aren’t suggesting otherwise.

TP will serve the same "backpackers" but without the backtracking.
luckyone wrote:
4. Lisbon isn’t well situated to be a transatlantic hub,

Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

1. IB will have the same problem as TAP. No partner. Delta has a lock on ATL-origin traffic and much more feed. LX is owned (obviously) by LH who serves ATL. Swissair used to serve ATL, but they had a partnership with Delta at the time. AZ is part of a JV with Delta so the metal doesn’t matter. FI is a flow carrier that’s isn’t going to attract connecting traffic away from the ATL connecting hub. DY...I’ll give you that, maybe. Either way I provided the option that your complaint is based on lack of airlines. So I’ll say it again, the market isn’t as large. And to suggest that ATL is underserved is preposterous.
2. My point was backpackers aren’t going to make you any money. TP isn’t going to prove me wrong.
3. Fair observation, though I suspect you missed my interntion. I meant more than geography. I meant local market size (with respect to the SE, most Portuguese communities are in the NE), airline network overlaps (with respect to ATL), cultural ties etc. LIS doesn’t meet those criteria. If it were just geography Lisbon would already be a powerhouse TATL hub. It’s clearly not.



Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
n2dru
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:02 am

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:16 am

klm617 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
airbazar wrote:
It lacks airline competition. No LX, no TP, no IB, no DY, no FI, no AZ. Basically if someone wants to travel to Europe and beyond they're stuck with the usual overpriced options.

TP will serve the same "backpackers" but without the backtracking.

Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

1. IB will have the same problem as TAP. No partner. Delta has a lock on ATL-origin traffic and much more feed. LX is owned (obviously) by LH who serves ATL. Swissair used to serve ATL, but they had a partnership with Delta at the time. AZ is part of a JV with Delta so the metal doesn’t matter. FI is a flow carrier that’s isn’t going to attract connecting traffic away from the ATL connecting hub. DY...I’ll give you that, maybe. Either way I provided the option that your complaint is based on lack of airlines. So I’ll say it again, the market isn’t as large. And to suggest that ATL is underserved is preposterous.
2. My point was backpackers aren’t going to make you any money. TP isn’t going to prove me wrong.
3. Fair observation, though I suspect you missed my interntion. I meant more than geography. I meant local market size (with respect to the SE, most Portuguese communities are in the NE), airline network overlaps (with respect to ATL), cultural ties etc. LIS doesn’t meet those criteria. If it were just geography Lisbon would already be a powerhouse TATL hub. It’s clearly not.



Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK



And what are those airlines?
 
winginit
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:22 am

klm617 wrote:
Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK


Air Canada and Virgin Atlantic will tell you your comment there is complete nonsense.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2773
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:38 am

n2dru wrote:
klm617 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
1. IB will have the same problem as TAP. No partner. Delta has a lock on ATL-origin traffic and much more feed. LX is owned (obviously) by LH who serves ATL. Swissair used to serve ATL, but they had a partnership with Delta at the time. AZ is part of a JV with Delta so the metal doesn’t matter. FI is a flow carrier that’s isn’t going to attract connecting traffic away from the ATL connecting hub. DY...I’ll give you that, maybe. Either way I provided the option that your complaint is based on lack of airlines. So I’ll say it again, the market isn’t as large. And to suggest that ATL is underserved is preposterous.
2. My point was backpackers aren’t going to make you any money. TP isn’t going to prove me wrong.
3. Fair observation, though I suspect you missed my interntion. I meant more than geography. I meant local market size (with respect to the SE, most Portuguese communities are in the NE), airline network overlaps (with respect to ATL), cultural ties etc. LIS doesn’t meet those criteria. If it were just geography Lisbon would already be a powerhouse TATL hub. It’s clearly not.



Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK



And what are those airlines?

While that statement is for the most part true, it’s also worth pointing out that most international airlines that no longer serve ATL no longer serve anywhere: Sabena, Swissair, British Caledonian (though they live on in BA), Air Jamaica, and VARIG off the top of my head. Japan Airlines stopped service. South African moved their service to Dulles. And I can’t recall if Austrian ever flew to ATL when they were cooperating with Delta. Aeromexico has started and stopped. PACE airlines served ATL but I believe they were charter.
Last edited by luckyone on Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
luckyone
Posts: 2773
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:39 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK


Air Canada and Virgin Atlantic will tell you your comment there is complete nonsense.

Fair, they technically aren’t in skyteam. But it’s worth noting Delta effectively controls VS.
 
winginit
Posts: 2545
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:41 am

luckyone wrote:
winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK


Air Canada and Virgin Atlantic will tell you your comment there is complete nonsense.

Fair, they technically aren’t in skyteam. But it’s worth noting Delta effectively controls VS.


I'm aware of that, but nonetheless it refutes what was stated. He struggles with accuracy that one.
 
Pbb152
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:49 am

boeingbus wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

I'm sure they are. The fares have been dirt cheap.


Why does everybody have to be a debbie downer? jeesh! Maybe they have lower costs and more efficient jets than anyone else, that they can price their seats lowers.


This guy thinks any new route not to MIA is a bad idea. It is better to just tune him out.
 
Pbb152
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:53 am

klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL



lavalampluva called the shot!
 
n2dru
Posts: 135
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:57 am

winginit wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK


Air Canada and Virgin Atlantic will tell you your comment there is complete nonsense.


I think he knows that. Any opportunity to take a dig at ATL is never missed on him. Kind of ironic the 2 non Skyteam airlines besides BA & LH he says hasn't dropped Atlanta are 2 he has stated many times should be serving DTW.
 
Pbb152
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:02 am

klm617 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
airbazar wrote:
It lacks airline competition. No LX, no TP, no IB, no DY, no FI, no AZ. Basically if someone wants to travel to Europe and beyond they're stuck with the usual overpriced options.

TP will serve the same "backpackers" but without the backtracking.

Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm

1. IB will have the same problem as TAP. No partner. Delta has a lock on ATL-origin traffic and much more feed. LX is owned (obviously) by LH who serves ATL. Swissair used to serve ATL, but they had a partnership with Delta at the time. AZ is part of a JV with Delta so the metal doesn’t matter. FI is a flow carrier that’s isn’t going to attract connecting traffic away from the ATL connecting hub. DY...I’ll give you that, maybe. Either way I provided the option that your complaint is based on lack of airlines. So I’ll say it again, the market isn’t as large. And to suggest that ATL is underserved is preposterous.
2. My point was backpackers aren’t going to make you any money. TP isn’t going to prove me wrong.
3. Fair observation, though I suspect you missed my interntion. I meant more than geography. I meant local market size (with respect to the SE, most Portuguese communities are in the NE), airline network overlaps (with respect to ATL), cultural ties etc. LIS doesn’t meet those criteria. If it were just geography Lisbon would already be a powerhouse TATL hub. It’s clearly not.



Also of note every non skyteam international airline that started service to ATL except BA and LH have all dropped their flights excluding QR and TK



But yet you suggest LIS-DTW? DTW couldn't even hold on to BA. This is the same BA that is about to start a route to Charleston. But sees no value in starting DTW. And you think TP would work?
 
bhxalex
Posts: 152
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:09 am

flymco753 wrote:
777Mech wrote:
klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


What's the PDEW for DTW-LIS?
Money-losingly low. A whopping 16 per day combined.


Almost as many as DTW-MAN, another equally loss making route frequently called for by a certain few.
 
MAH4546
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:16 am

Pbb152 wrote:
boeingbus wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

I'm sure they are. The fares have been dirt cheap.


Why does everybody have to be a debbie downer? jeesh! Maybe they have lower costs and more efficient jets than anyone else, that they can price their seats lowers.


This guy thinks any new route not to MIA is a bad idea. It is better to just tune him out.


LOL. In the same thread where I quickly dismissed the idea of more MIALIS service, which TAP shouldn't be adding.

Sorry, but Portugal-United States is at overcapacity. There isn't room for all of these new seats. It's a bloodbath.
a.
 
Atlwarrior
Posts: 414
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:37 am

Atlanta’s large and successful African American population will definitely connect with flights to Ghana, Israel, and Nigeria. This flight will be a connecting hub just like Istanbul. This Atlantan will support it.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:43 am

klm617 wrote:
If they think ATL-LIS will work after Delta dropped it then it's odd to me why they don't try DTW-LIS. IMHO the only ones that get added here are LAX and YUL


I think PHL-LIS has the same odds as DTW-LIS but that's just me thinking out loud.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:09 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
How do they do with their EWR service? Anyone know the LFs?

2018 through September noted below this does not include EWR-OPO

Total Flights, Total Seats, Total Pax. Inbound LF, Outbound LF, Combined LF

Jan, 44 11,752 10,664 89.37% 92.24% 90.74%
Feb, 36 9,740 8,270 78.47% 91.36% 84.91%
Mar, 46 12,452 11,288 87.24% 94.07% 90.65%
Apr, 60 16,100 14,398 88.02% 90.84% 89.43%
May, 62 16,625 14,453 80.81% 93.07% 86.94%
Jun, 60 16,108 13,718 77.15% 93.17% 85.16%
Jul, 62 16,721 14,447 88.71% 84.09% 86.40%
Aug, 62 16,417 14,894 92.51% 88.99% 90.72%
Sep, 60 16,192 14,463 87.93% 90.71% 89.32%
YTD, 492 132,107 116,595 85.77% 90.76% 88.26%

So bums on seats, I suspect they are pretty happy, although it in no way speaks to how well the flights are financially doing.
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
vulindlela744
Posts: 452
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:13 am

As usual the media gets it wrong when it comes to aviation. Regarding Atlanta. The article states Delta doesn’t even serve Lisbon from Atlanta so how would TAP make it work. Well Delta does serve Lisbon from both Atlanta and JFK. I just flew Lisbon-Atlanta last June. I’m sure TAP can make it work. Also, at 4100 miles it could be in the range of the A321LR
 
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VS4ever
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:24 am

vulindlela744 wrote:
As usual the media gets it wrong when it comes to aviation. Regarding Atlanta. The article states Delta doesn’t even serve Lisbon from Atlanta so how would TAP make it work. Well Delta does serve Lisbon from both Atlanta and JFK. I just flew Lisbon-Atlanta last June. I’m sure TAP can make it work. Also, at 4100 miles it could be in the range of the A321LR


Not so fast you are right for 2018, but 2019 is changing, see below.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/f ... 486396002/
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
kipfilet
Posts: 48
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:33 am

vulindlela744 wrote:
As usual the media gets it wrong when it comes to aviation. Regarding Atlanta. The article states Delta doesn’t even serve Lisbon from Atlanta so how would TAP make it work. Well Delta does serve Lisbon from both Atlanta and JFK. I just flew Lisbon-Atlanta last June. I’m sure TAP can make it work. Also, at 4100 miles it could be in the range of the A321LR

Delta dropped ATL-LIS
 
acavpics
Posts: 152
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:02 am

AlexBrewster03 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
ATL is a head scratcher. They will have zero feed in ATL and competition from DL. The A330 seems like too much plane for this market.

If the A321LR can reach ATL, then it would be the perfect summer seasonal add. Or an A330 2-4x a week. Plus, TAP would have ATL-LIS all to themselves. DL can be beat, which is shown with QR and TK.


TK has slightly higher load factors on most of the other US routes. (The other ones are all 80+ers, while ATL is at 77% - Though that is a big jump from 2017's 65%)

Remember, QR is currently the only ME3 carrier at ATL. And the Indian, Mid Eastern, African populations over there are large and growing fast. (Like VERY, VERY fast - I believe last year ATL metro was the 3rd fastest growing area in America, with an average of 36 newcomers per day) ... That growth was clearly evident in the close gubernatorial election of GA last November. Barring the entry of EK, or EY, I think it will be a piece of cake for QR to fill a daily 777 to ATL. The only real set back for them is that Atlanta isn't an international tourist destination.
 
pezzy669
Posts: 182
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:12 am

DLvsWN wrote:
ATL-LIS is a completely different market for TAP than for DL. DL is counting on US to Portugal; TAP is counting on ATL to Europe/North Africa. It's hard to find data supporting this, but I'd be surprised if the former market is larger than the latter, either in terms of sheer numbers and in fares. Especially since the big Portuguese markets of Boston and NYC wouldn't use ATL.

This is basically like Icelandair serving Atlanta, and upon such announcements we don't see a flood of "but xyz hub carrier could never make KEF work in a million years!" posts.


TAP is making a huge miss here. Europe & North Africa is already very well covered via the Air France and KLM JV for the hugely loyal DL/Skyteam ATL folks. TAP will need to severely undercut some connecting fares. If DL can't make this route work then they must have some other ulterior motive here - prob same deal for IAH.
 
Kikko19
Posts: 523
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:24 am

For what I have heard from my internal source there is also Hav. And Scl if I have missed it.
 
LH658
Posts: 1049
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Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:50 am

What about the cargo potential on these flights?
 
GRJGeorge
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:38 am

Will the planned resumption of LIS-JNB also got to do with the North American expansion...meaning they might be focusing on timing it better for LIS- North Am traffic, and that way have better success on JNB route. Seeing a gap in the ever expanding North America-Southern Africa traffic growth, while US airlines are reluctant to launch or expand and SAA in no position to start new services.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5409
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:44 am

airbazar wrote:
Please look at a map. LIS is the westernmost hub in continental Europe, requiring no backtracking at all between ATL and any point in continental Europe. If that's not the definition of a good geographic location I don't know what is.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=lis-atl%0D ... =wls&DU=nm


Play with Great Circle yourself. LIS is too far south to take advantage of Great Circle routes. ATL-LIS-LON is ~850 miles longer than ATL-LON. ATL-LIS-CDG is ~600 miles farther than ATL-CDG. ATL-LIS-FRA is ~650 miles farther than ATL-FRA. ATL-LIS-AMS is ~850 miles farther than ATL-AMS. That covers the top four European gateways to the U.S. Few Americans care about LIS' proximity or frequency to SVQ.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5409
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: TAP Portugal Plans Atlanta, Houston, Los Angeles, Montreal in 2020

Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:52 am

vulindlela744 wrote:
Also, at 4100 miles it could be in the range of the A321LR


Not in winter. Not in a relatively dense config. And if it isn't year-round it's going to get little ATL business traffic. You're stuck with backpackers with low fares again. Yeh, Portugal in the winter rains. That'll be $450 r/t fares to get a decent load factor - and they still won't make money.

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