TTraider95
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Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:46 pm

Hello Everybody,
About a week ago I was in Denver riding the underground train and I over heard two United pilots talking about the companies hiring plans. One said that all of New York Air guys are gone and People Express ones are starting to retire. So that got me thinking of the pilots of other defunct airlines like Pan Am and Eastern. Were they picked up by another airline and are they still flying?
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:59 pm

For what it is worth, I was on a Southwest flight last week with a FA who worked for Pan Am. She was hired in 1989. She said she was part of the last FA class.

She was hired by United after Pam Am stopped flying. She said United was pretty good at hiring the ex Pan Am folks.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:06 pm

Yes.

Retirement age is 65. EA went bust 28-years-old, PA 27. Thus, any pilot 37 & under at EA at the time of its collapse and 38 & under at PA are still eligible to work -- and undoubtedly, many/most of them are, albeit the pool is probably fairly small. Getting hired by another airline wouldn't have been a problem for a young pilot in the 1990s...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:07 pm

There’s probably a few rEAL guys at UAL, AA or DL. A guy in my class in ‘85 just retired at AA. I know a ex-BN and an ex-EA still flying corporate in their 70s.

GF
 
Italianflyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:40 pm

There were quite a few younger EA pilots picked up by NWA in the early 90s to staff the DC9s acquired from EA and the ill fated DCA minihub along with growth at BOS, MEM & DTW.
Can't speak to how many are online at DL but I'd guess a few dozen.
 
codc10
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:06 am

There are a good number of EAL pilots (and some scabs, too) at UAL. As for Pan Am, there were a few tranches of PA pilots (less than 1000 total) that were integrated at various points from 1985-1991 as UA picked over various Pan Am assets. AFAIK these were relatively senior pilots so I'm not sure if any remain.

Delta took on Pan Am's Airbus crews in the 80s and I think a fair number are still with the company. PA's 747 crews were left out in the cold.
 
rdubya
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:09 am

My dad was eastern then UAL in 89'. Retired from the B777 a few months ago.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:19 am

I would think the PAA Airbus pilots at DL would be retired by now. The several I know are long retired, age 60 rule. I do a PAA S/O who went USAir, furloughed after 9/11, did military, then recalled at AA a few years ago. Middle of the pack 787 F/O last we spoke.

GF
 
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ua900
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:22 am

TTraider95 wrote:
Hello Everybody,
About a week ago I was in Denver riding the underground train and I over heard two United pilots talking about the companies hiring plans. One said that all of New York Air guys are gone and People Express ones are starting to retire. So that got me thinking of the pilots of other defunct airlines like Pan Am and Eastern. Were they picked up by another airline and are they still flying?


Should be few and far between now for piloting regular scheduled commercial fights. FAs are another story altogether, plenty left at UA and I'm sure elsewhere as well. They seem more classy than the ones in the middle.
2018: AMS | ARN | CDG | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUM | HAM | HKG | HNL | IAH | LAX | MIA | MUC | ORD | RSW | SAL | SFO | SIN | TLV | TXL | VIE | ZRH
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:59 am

ua900 wrote:
TTraider95 wrote:
Hello Everybody,
About a week ago I was in Denver riding the underground train and I over heard two United pilots talking about the companies hiring plans. One said that all of New York Air guys are gone and People Express ones are starting to retire. So that got me thinking of the pilots of other defunct airlines like Pan Am and Eastern. Were they picked up by another airline and are they still flying?


Should be few and far between now for piloting regular scheduled commercial fights. FAs are another story altogether, plenty left at UA and I'm sure elsewhere as well. They seem more classy than the ones in the middle.


There's a 1958 National hire FA still flying for Delta out of JFK. We'll still have Pan Amers in the cabin for a long time to come.
 
Cody
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:18 am

US Airways inherited some Eastern pilots when they folded the Trump Shuttle into the mainline operation. Their EAL seniority actually was used to slot them into the seniority list. There are still several at American.

Talk about an interesting career.....from Borman to Parker with just one interview!
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:31 am

Cody wrote:
US Airways inherited some Eastern pilots when they folded the Trump Shuttle into the mainline operation. Their EAL seniority actually was used to slot them into the seniority list. There are still several at American.

Talk about an interesting career.....from Borman to Parker with just one interview!


The most senior AA flight attendant started with the EA shuttle and since they had their own operating certificate they kept their original EA date of hire all the way to today where she still flies the shuttle routes since she gets to sleep in her own bed every night.
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AABoeingFlyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:16 am

Yes. There are several ex-PanAm pilots at AA. Flew with one in January. There are also quite a few rEAL pilots (and a couple Eastern scabs that came from America West).
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:20 am

I met a PA Express pilot who flies for AA back in January. Interesting guy with interesting stories.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:43 am

AABoeingFlyer wrote:
(and a couple Eastern scabs that came from America West).


Is that really necessary? You have no idea why someone makes a decision. Especially under enormous pressure. They could have had a sick child or spouse, parents that depend on them, etc. Or maybe they were just happy with their job. Everyone has their own obligations and priorities. It's really sad to see people still fuming over something that happened over 30 years ago. Life is too short to hold on to that kind of hate.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:56 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
AABoeingFlyer wrote:
(and a couple Eastern scabs that came from America West).


Is that really necessary? You have no idea why someone makes a decision. Especially under enormous pressure. They could have had a sick child or spouse, parents that depend on them, etc. Or maybe they were just happy with their job. Everyone has their own obligations and priorities. It's really sad to see people still fuming over something that happened over 30 years ago. Life is too short to hold on to that kind of hate.


They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.
 
Virtual737
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:07 am

millionsofmiles wrote:

They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.


It is an opinion. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to. Many would agree with you I'm sure, and many would disagree. A fact? No.

Is there a derogatory word to describe the opposite of a "scab"? Does that stick with them for life too?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:53 am

Wow, this thread went off the rails quickly. FWIW, Delta did hire a few, but very very former EAL pilots. They were somewhat reluctant to hire a bunch of battle worn ALPA pilots and taint the gene pool. Had a friend whose father had been the Chief Pilot in ATL for Eastern and his words for his son were, stay away from EAL, and go somewhere else if you want to fly for an airline.

There were different degrees of scabbing in the EAL debacle. Those that were hired off the street and those who chose to cross the line after ALPA national told the to go back as the strike was not producing the desired results. Those pilots were referred to as "crawl backs" as I recall.

I doubt there many Pan Am pilots still working at at DAL, or any other Part 121 airlines these days.
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:20 pm

Virtual737 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:

They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.


It is an opinion. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to. Many would agree with you I'm sure, and many would disagree. A fact? No.

Is there a derogatory word to describe the opposite of a "scab"? Does that stick with them for life too?

No it’s a fact.

A scab is someone who crosses a legal picket line (within the context of the airline world. Other industry’s unions have the right to determine who is a scab in their respective cases). A scab is a scab for life based on their actions. The Supreme Court even ruled in favor of unions calling scabs, scabs
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:00 pm

stratosphere wrote:
I went 6 months with not a dime of pay and had to sell most everything I had to survive until I got hired into my current company. Thankfully I didn't lose my house.


Because you CHOSE to. You could have left voluntarily before striking, but you made a choice to walk out and see what happened.

stratosphere wrote:
But friends of mine lost everything their house the marriages and I know of at least one or two that took their life.


And I'd imagine many of them - like some of my family members who lost jobs when EA went under - had those choices made FOR them by people like you who selfishly chose to strike instead of just looking for your happiness elsewhere. Great job wiping out thousands of jobs that weren't yours in the process, many of those for non-union gate agents, CTO workers, and other employees whose choice, once again, you made for them.
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Virtual737
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:01 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
I went 6 months with not a dime of pay and had to sell most everything I had to survive until I got hired into my current company. Thankfully I didn't lose my house.


Because you CHOSE to. You could have left voluntarily before striking, but you made a choice to walk out and see what happened.


I started a thread in non-av through fear of this thread being totally hijacked and closed, which would be rather unfair on the OP.
 
mrwhistler
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:20 pm

EA CO AS wrote:

And I'd imagine many of them - like some of my family members who lost jobs when EA went under - had those choices made FOR them by people like you who selfishly chose to strike instead of just looking for your happiness elsewhere. Great job wiping out thousands of jobs that weren't yours in the process, many of those for non-union gate agents, CTO workers, and other employees whose choice, once again, you made for them.



And many of those who had no dog in the fight of the strike had mortgages, life savings, marriages, and other serious life commitments go up in smoke to union members that demanded full pay to the last day.
 
johns624
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:14 pm

mrwhistler wrote:
demanded full pay to the last day.
Just like management?
 
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compensateme
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:31 pm

A more thorough, relevant answer:

- PA & EA peaked at a combined ~6,500 pilots in 1986. PA's asset sales included nearly 2,000 pilots who were transferred to UA & DL. EA added hundreds of "scabs" during its strike, many of whom were quite young and would still be eligible to fly today:

To illustrate, he's the "scab" listing, which includes many DOB:
www.cockpitseeker.com/wp-content/upload ... t-2004.pdf

- Per a 1989 NYT article, most of EA & PA's workforce was over 50; the airlines' were experiencing large amounts of mandatory retirements, and were filling these jobs with "young" hires. Problem was, the "young" hires started out as flight engineers - a job one could work over 60. Thus, a large number of retried employees sued... and reached a settlement. While "young" is never defined, age discrimination laws apply to over 40, so we know they're younger than that.

- Domestic airlines (including freighters) were rapidly expanding in the 1990s, and any ex-PA and EA pilots could've easily found new work. Problem was, most of them were over 50 and did not like the idea of starting over (sans the groups that were transferred to UA & DL). The ex-EA pilots argued that they had full integration rights with CO, an argument courts initially affirmed. In 1999, CO reached a large settlement with about 700 ex-pilots - more than half its workforce at closure:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB93986690120944049

Another group pursued a larger settlement but eventually lost (circa 2000).

The former PA pilots sued Libya in 2016 for damages to their career earnings:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/tru ... 8a474e4f4d

-- In a 2007 thread, DL & UA pilots indicated that nearly all ex-EA & PA pilots had left/retired.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=459755

Other threads indicate that FedEx had the largest number of remaining pilots, especially "scabs."

-- Anybody who flew for EA and was 38 or younger in 1991, and anybody who flew for PA and was 37 or younger in 1991, would still be eligible to fly today. This equates into a very small number of employees (hundreds), who would've had short careers and probably don't identify themselves with EA or PA.

------

To summarize: YES, but not many, and probably none define their careers at EA or PA since that stop would've been short.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:36 pm

johns624 wrote:
mrwhistler wrote:
demanded full pay to the last day.
Just like management?


Management took voluntary cuts, and later, involuntary ones, to keep the airline from being sold to TAC, and then again to keep it flying. All while the TWU and ALPA agreed to cuts but the IAM demanded increases, drove the BOD to sell to TAC, and then walked out in 1989, again, making a decision FOR their co-workers.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N649DL
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:36 pm

3 years ago when I lived in Denver, I was randomly at a brewery in Denver and a UAL pilot came up to my Dad (ironically, wearing a MAGA hat as a joke at the time) who started talking to us and said he was in DEN for training on the 777.

He was really friendly and we talked for an hour about the industry. He was hired by Pan Am in 1985 out of the military as a rare new hire on the 727. He then left and went to CO based out of EWR shortly before Pan Am went out of business. I think he said he was 25 at the time of hire at Pan Am, so he's still able to fly with UA to this day. He mostly does UA long haul flying out of EWR and I think was at the training center for sUA 777 certifications or something like that.
 
globalflyer
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:19 pm

I was original Eastern...
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:26 pm

globalflyer wrote:
I was original Eastern...


You may find this interesting, then!

http://www.gigapan.com/gigapans/213132? ... YfqhwF18fs

Zoom in to find your name.
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goboeing
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:06 am

I've flown with at least two pilots in the past few months who were on the PAA seniority list. They're certainly still out there, though at this point nobody under ~55 could fit the bill.
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
AABoeingFlyer wrote:
(and a couple Eastern scabs that came from America West).


Is that really necessary? You have no idea why someone makes a decision. Especially under enormous pressure. They could have had a sick child or spouse, parents that depend on them, etc. Or maybe they were just happy with their job. Everyone has their own obligations and priorities. It's really sad to see people still fuming over something that happened over 30 years ago. Life is too short to hold on to that kind of hate.


First of all, it's actually relevant to the discussion because it was a big deal at that now defunct airline.

Secondly, as if the rest of the union pilots didn't have any family issues, financial issues of their own?

You just don't get it.

Kicked a scab off the jumpseat two months ago. 1985 was yesterday...go catch another flight, bud.
 
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bluestreak
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:12 am

My cousin was hired as an Eastern flight attendant in 1988. After EA shutdown, she worked at ASA for a couple of years until this little airline called Valujet came along. She was in one of the first few flight attendant classes for Valujet.

A couple of years later, she told me she was worried about flying on some of their planes because of safety issues. She told me she was leaving as soon as she found something else. Then flight 592 went down (on her birthday, thankfully she had scheduled that day off), she then left the airline. She ended up with Continental, now United.

She is only in her early 50's, so she still has several years of work ahead if she desires. So there may be quite a few flight attendants still working who were with Eastern early in their careers.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:32 am

bluestreak wrote:
My cousin was hired as an Eastern flight attendant in 1988. After EA shutdown, she worked at ASA for a couple of years until this little airline called Valujet came along. She was in one of the first few flight attendant classes for Valujet.

A couple of years later, she told me she was worried about flying on some of their planes because of safety issues. She told me she was leaving as soon as she found something else. Then flight 592 went down (on her birthday, thankfully she had scheduled that day off), she then left the airline. She ended up with Continental, now United.

She is only in her early 50's, so she still has several years of work ahead if she desires. So there may be quite a few flight attendants still working who were with Eastern early in their careers.


That is beyond sad and immeasurably petty, if true. These are pilots, not union puppets.
 
triple3driver
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:38 am

A few months ago, I met this one F/A who originally flew for Pan-Am, then went to NWA, and then the merger happened. She was only 58, so she will still be flying for a long time to come if she wishes, and at the time, she did. Not the first time, but the most recent. You don't get a lot of them at JFK though, which is surprising to me.
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:03 am

I suppose many original Eastern pilots are still on "strike" today...
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:13 am

goboeing wrote:
Kicked a scab off the jumpseat two months ago. 1985 was yesterday...go catch another flight, bud.


How childish and petty; I'm actually embarrassed for you right now.
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Babyshark
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:15 am

TTraider95 wrote:
Hello Everybody,
About a week ago I was in Denver riding the underground train and I over heard two United pilots talking about the companies hiring plans. One said that all of New York Air guys are gone and People Express ones are starting to retire. So that got me thinking of the pilots of other defunct airlines like Pan Am and Eastern. Were they picked up by another airline and are they still flying?



We have a few at Delta. I flew with one Easten pilot, he’s 62 I believe, who left for nwa when he saw the direction eastern was heading. And we have a captain who was at Pan Am as a 74 engineer at a very young age. He is so young looking that it shocks you when he says he was at Pan Am. They’re here, but they were young.
 
ual763
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:17 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
bluestreak wrote:
My cousin was hired as an Eastern flight attendant in 1988. After EA shutdown, she worked at ASA for a couple of years until this little airline called Valujet came along. She was in one of the first few flight attendant classes for Valujet.

A couple of years later, she told me she was worried about flying on some of their planes because of safety issues. She told me she was leaving as soon as she found something else. Then flight 592 went down (on her birthday, thankfully she had scheduled that day off), she then left the airline. She ended up with Continental, now United.

She is only in her early 50's, so she still has several years of work ahead if she desires. So there may be quite a few flight attendants still working who were with Eastern early in their careers.


That is beyond sad and immeasurably petty, if true. These are pilots, not union puppets.


I think you may have meant to quote @goboeing instead. If so, I agree, definitely a dick move to deny someone a jumpseat just because they made the right decision for themselves.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:34 am

ual763 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
bluestreak wrote:
My cousin was hired as an Eastern flight attendant in 1988. After EA shutdown, she worked at ASA for a couple of years until this little airline called Valujet came along. She was in one of the first few flight attendant classes for Valujet.

A couple of years later, she told me she was worried about flying on some of their planes because of safety issues. She told me she was leaving as soon as she found something else. Then flight 592 went down (on her birthday, thankfully she had scheduled that day off), she then left the airline. She ended up with Continental, now United.

She is only in her early 50's, so she still has several years of work ahead if she desires. So there may be quite a few flight attendants still working who were with Eastern early in their careers.


That is beyond sad and immeasurably petty, if true. These are pilots, not union puppets.


I think you may have meant to quote @goboeing instead. If so, I agree, definitely a dick move to deny someone a jumpseat just because they made the right decision for themselves.


Oops you're right, sorry about that!
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:49 am

A ton of the Eastern scabs ended up at the suspect cargo ops on 36th street in Miami. I do not believe there are any scabs at the legacy carriers now (maybe a couple in very small numbers).

It isn't surprising that the regulars here are scab apologists. If you scab, you better live in base.
Last edited by SierraPacific on Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
727200
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:59 am

Amazing, the childish antics of supposedly mature individuals who are suppose to be adults.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not. And I do not recall any of this individuals owning the airplane to which they are denying others passage. But, like they say, "What goes around, comes around." Payback will happen. The guys made decisions that only they can make, calling them names or not letting them get access on a flight is so petty and acting like a spoiled child. But then, that is what we currently have going on in society because a group doesn't like who was elected. Spoiled children throwing a temperature tantrum is the best description of these immature ones.

.
 
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DalDC9Bos
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:02 am

Like others have said, you can def come across ex-PA or Eastern FAs today. On my last DL transcon from JFK-SFO, there was a FA who originally flew for PA and one that flew for Western. They both had pins above their DL wings. I spoke to the one from Western. Told me he was either based in LAX and HNL. That he used to travel with his surfboard and on a good day would get to HNL with time for a surf.

Are there many Western pilots still flying?
 
departedflights
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:32 am

With all due respect, how did a thread titled: "Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?" become a thread about how many former Pan Am and Eastern flight attendants are still flying?

It doesn't surprise me there are plenty of former Pan Am and Eastern flight attendants still out there... flight attendants are flying well into their 70 and 80s these days.

Pilots, however, have a mandatory retirement age.... I think asking whether any former PA or EA pilots are flying is a TOTALLY different question than if any PA or EA flight attendants are still flying.

Moderators... can we keep this thread on topic or not?
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 am

Please keep the thread on topic. Some of the hostile comments in this thread really aren't necessary.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:57 am

Virtual737 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:

They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.


It is an opinion. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to. Many would agree with you I'm sure, and many would disagree. A fact? No.

Is there a derogatory word to describe the opposite of a "scab"? Does that stick with them for life too?


I really don't care to join in a back and forth on here (and certainly not with anyone who doesn't work in the airline industry), however, the airline industry isn't like most "companies". For most front line employees it's also not a job, it's a lifestyle so for those outside of the industry they probably don't really "get it". Not saying that's a bad thing or trying to put anyone down but it is what it is. Unless anyone making comments (either way) works in the aviation industry, has gone through a bankruptcy in the industry, has had to make the choice of whether to vote for or against a pay cut or whether or not to strike in the industry it would probably be best to just leave opinions out of it. Unfortunately, the fact remains in the industry that if someone performs struck work (pardon the phrasing) then they are a Scab just as a Pilot is a Pilot, a Mechanic is a Mechanic, a Flight Attendant is a Flight Attendant. It isn't name calling... NOW... would I ever treat anyone any less than I would want them to treat me, my friends, or family? HECK NO! I will say this and I think just about anyone from PA, EA, TW, BN, and to a lesser extent CO, US, NW, UA and AA would agree..... having to be in a position where you don't know if you will have a plane sitting at the gate tomorrow, no matter how many pay, benefit cuts you've sacrificed/given back is a truly sickening feeling and made even worse when the frontline is working their behinds off to save it all the while the Executive Suites of many of the above were giving "the talent" raises and bonuses while the ship was still "sinking". It's not something any employee wanted but it was the hand that was dealt and whichever way you voted or what direction you went in, or what even transpired.... it's the decision that you had to live with.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3361
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:15 am

EA pilots had an antipodal number in the Ansett ‘89 strikers, also a large diaspora of pilots who suffered greatly.

GF
 
Dominion301
Posts: 2137
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:41 am

While there are obviously current EA2 (aka un-rEAL EAers), has anyone come across any PA ll or PA lll pilots?
 
Maddawg88
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:54 pm

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:15 am

Virtual737 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:

They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.


It is an opinion. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to. Many would agree with you I'm sure, and many would disagree. A fact? No.

Is there a derogatory word to describe the opposite of a "scab"? Does that stick with them for life too?


You’re right. Many would disagree. But I’d wager they don’t belong to a union. Any ALPA/APA or Teamster pilot would call them a scab.

The nuclear option and hence power for a union member is the right to strike. The power behind the strike is the commitment of every member to never cross the picket line. A scab is someone who chooses a short term gain at the expense of his/her brothers and sisters. To add insult to injury they get paid during the strike and then when the strike is over they also get to enjoy the new contract one by their fellow pilots who walked the line. A scab is actually a nice term to describe them.
 
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millionsofmiles
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:18 am

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:56 am

Virtual737 wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:

They are what they are. A scab is a scab for the rest of their lives. It’s a statement of fact.


It is an opinion. It is your opinion, which you are entitled to. Many would agree with you I'm sure, and many would disagree. A fact? No.

Is there a derogatory word to describe the opposite of a "scab"? Does that stick with them for life too?


Not an opinion. Fact.

Besides, if they are so OK with what they have done, why would they care what we call them?
 
Chasensfo
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:07 am

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:39 am

I imagine most SCAB defenders do not work in the industry. The threat of grinding the operation to a halt is often the only reason that work rules improve, pay increases to meet increasing workloads and inflation, and that all flying isn't out sourced to the lowest bidder. Some airlines, like Southwest until the last decade, were able to diplomatically solve said issues and keep the employee group happy with no threat of disruption to the customer. However, most companies have a long history of pissing off the employee group to the point of strikes or at least strike votes. Everybody needs their money, nobody wants to go unpaid for weeks or months. Strikes are always a very last resort, and virtually always justifiable from the striking employee group. People forget that ALPA, the pilot union representing most major US carriers, isn't just responsible for pay raises, but they pressure airlines for safety changes like an active fight to find ways to ship lithium batteries on freighters without risking crew or aircraft safety after several related crashes. ALPA is not the best thing ever and there is plenty of valid criticism, but they are better than nothing in most cases.

There is a big issue in the corporate flying world of owners who are rich enough to buy the aircraft but too poor to operate it properly tricking pilots into horrendous contracts or flying for free or next to nothing. If these people can't afford the pilot, then they have no business owning the jet. By that same metric, if an airline can't pay the pilots what they are worth in comparison to their peers at similar operations, then perhaps it is time to close up shop rather than ask people to work for free. So, when an airline pushes pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ect to a strike, and they put their entire livelihood on the line to fight for the future of every pilot to wear that uniform, you can imagine how they will view anyone who claims they "need the money" more than their brothers and sisters out on strike.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and sometimes airlines topple due to union politics, and sometimes unions can be too bullheaded. But you will be hard pressed to convince virtually any airline pilot, flight attendant, mechanic, or air traffic controller to give a scab a pass. No matter how great a person they may be or how desperate their situation at the time. That is the cold truth. There are plenty of pilots in the US who carry scab lists to this day denying rides to pilots who crossed lines in the 80s, almost 40 years ago. I'd have to imagine most of them regret their decision to work against the strike, honestly.
 
Virtual737
Posts: 588
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:16 am

Re: Any Original Pan Am or Eastern Pilots Still Flying?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:42 am

Chasensfo wrote:
I imagine most SCAB defenders do not work in the industry. The threat of grinding the operation to a halt is often the only reason that work rules improve, pay increases to meet increasing workloads and inflation, and that all flying isn't out sourced to the lowest bidder. Some airlines, like Southwest until the last decade, were able to diplomatically solve said issues and keep the employee group happy with no threat of disruption to the customer. However, most companies have a long history of pissing off the employee group to the point of strikes or at least strike votes. Everybody needs their money, nobody wants to go unpaid for weeks or months. Strikes are always a very last resort, and virtually always justifiable from the striking employee group. People forget that ALPA, the pilot union representing most major US carriers, isn't just responsible for pay raises, but they pressure airlines for safety changes like an active fight to find ways to ship lithium batteries on freighters without risking crew or aircraft safety after several related crashes. ALPA is not the best thing ever and there is plenty of valid criticism, but they are better than nothing in most cases.

There is a big issue in the corporate flying world of owners who are rich enough to buy the aircraft but too poor to operate it properly tricking pilots into horrendous contracts or flying for free or next to nothing. If these people can't afford the pilot, then they have no business owning the jet. By that same metric, if an airline can't pay the pilots what they are worth in comparison to their peers at similar operations, then perhaps it is time to close up shop rather than ask people to work for free. So, when an airline pushes pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, ect to a strike, and they put their entire livelihood on the line to fight for the future of every pilot to wear that uniform, you can imagine how they will view anyone who claims they "need the money" more than their brothers and sisters out on strike.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and sometimes airlines topple due to union politics, and sometimes unions can be too bullheaded. But you will be hard pressed to convince virtually any airline pilot, flight attendant, mechanic, or air traffic controller to give a scab a pass. No matter how great a person they may be or how desperate their situation at the time. That is the cold truth. There are plenty of pilots in the US who carry scab lists to this day denying rides to pilots who crossed lines in the 80s, almost 40 years ago. I'd have to imagine most of them regret their decision to work against the strike, honestly.


Perfect, thank you. A superb explanation based in its own merits that made a point without the need of a comment such as "you must be a scab", or "written like the scab you are", which has appeared in pretty much all others. Compelling in fact.

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