I am hoping this thread generates some healthy spirited debate. It seems quite amazing that this is not yet a standard feature, especially when we now live in a world were almost everything is on video. It would be wonderful for experienced professionals to constructively walk us through the arguments FOR and AGAINST.

thoughts anyone?

- pilots dont want to be a reality show actors
- voice recorders + flight input recorders provide even more info than just video.
so you dont progress more if you'll have cockpit video from Lion and Ethiopean planes

Good place to hang a hat.

Something like this would be helpful

https://youtu.be/jxflGXZxNBM?t=44

However I am not sure all pilots are up for this.

Memory storage is able to handle full flights now.

Armadillo1 wrote:

- pilots dont want to be a reality show actors
- voice recorders + flight input recorders provide even more info than just video.
so you dont progress more if you'll have cockpit video from Lion and Ethiopean planes

Very well understand the concern of pilots, well founded. But it could have been of great help with Egypt 990 and others. It could also be an invaluable training tool to help pilots perform better through situations.

And let me also add in the AGAINST column that it would be very difficult for the families of the pilots to have to see the last moments of their loved ones.

Pilots have fought this subject before, it’s not a new concept.

we know enough about Egypt 990 and similar accident, dont see how video do any help.
video for training already available from any pilot wanted to.

so i think it is possible, but changing nothing.

I think this is inevitable. Especially as we get toward 1 pilot operations (akin to ET). The lack of qualified pilots globally to meet needs over the next two decades can be partially mitigated by making sure the guys/gals up there know they are tracked/recorded.

This was resisted initially by Police in the US, for comparison, but is now known to basically be a big net positive. If you might be in a cockpit alone with a member of the opposite sex, too, for many hours at a time I would surely want 'film' to support/rebut any claims of harassment too. There's very little down side to having more data from the cockpits.

And what if there is a general agreement supported by the international aviation agencies that the data is encrypted and only to be reviewed in extreme circumstances where you need the additional video perspective to gain absolute clarity and that it will never be released to the public domain?

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.

While this is true I think a video can be used to help with the "Why". Why the pilots did or did not do something. It helps rule out the assumptions.

Personally, I have no objection to having a camera in the cockpit. But ONLY if I have the same protections as the FDR/CVR. And that the video can ONLY be used in a crash investigation.

Instead of this work should be done on transmitting black box data in real time to land based servers, which would antiquate the need of finding black boxes, which is often a miserable task.

If pilots aren't doing anything wrong than I don't see why they should object to cameras. The airplane is a workplace not their home and workplaces generally have surveillance cameras incase things go wrong.

Perhaps some nay-saying pilots are doing things in the cockpit they'd prefer us not to know about.

Armadillo1 wrote:

we know enough about Egypt 990 and similar accident, dont see how video do any help..

It would have been of immeasurable help with flight 990, there were some political considerations that the NTSB had to navigate which became a major headache for them. They Egyptian authorities sent experts to present countless theories so as to rule out suicide. And to this day there are many that are not entirely convinced. Here is a great article on tragedy and the investigation...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... 90/302332/

anshabhi wrote:

Instead of this work should be done on transmitting black box data in real time to land based servers, which would antiquate the need of finding black boxes, which is often a miserable task.

I read about this idea several years ago in one of my aviation enthusiast magazines. It was dismissed pretty much out of hand due to costs, and the amount of data storage required. Perhaps things have changed enough over the years to consider it again?

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.

Storage space isn't really a problem now when we can integrate 1TB memory chip into mobile phone at ease nowadays

texl1649 wrote:

This was resisted initially by Police in the US, for comparison, but is now known to basically be a big net positive. If you might be in a cockpit alone with a member of the opposite sex, too, for many hours at a time I would surely want 'film' to support/rebut any claims of harassment too. There's very little down side to having more data from the cockpits.

The use of police camera is to record the action of police and what they're facing. That's the same information being recorded by existing blackbox in aircraft.

c933103 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.

Storage space isn't really a problem now when we can integrate 1TB memory chip into mobile phone at ease nowadays

texl1649 wrote:

This was resisted initially by Police in the US, for comparison, but is now known to basically be a big net positive. If you might be in a cockpit alone with a member of the opposite sex, too, for many hours at a time I would surely want 'film' to support/rebut any claims of harassment too. There's very little down side to having more data from the cockpits.

The use of police camera is to record the action of police and what they're facing. That's the same information being recorded by existing blackbox in aircraft.

The spatial information video recording provides is very valuable, both when a police officer is documenting the time urgency of decision making, and when determining what a pilot was actually looking at/visual information. This is not just as simple as 'black box' data metrics, but also includes nonverbal communications/indicia of focus/analysis. It's coming, inevitably. Eventually it will reach many more corners, including doctors, etc.

Trump probably wishes he had a recording of every interaction he ever had with someone who had once spoken with a Russian, for instance. If storage costs aren't the concerns, what is the objection in terms of pilot recordings?

I dont see an issue with it, especially since the CVR is recording voice. But as someone pointed out above, this data should be secure and accessible only in the event of an incident.

texl1649 wrote:

c933103 wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.

Storage space isn't really a problem now when we can integrate 1TB memory chip into mobile phone at ease nowadays

texl1649 wrote:

This was resisted initially by Police in the US, for comparison, but is now known to basically be a big net positive. If you might be in a cockpit alone with a member of the opposite sex, too, for many hours at a time I would surely want 'film' to support/rebut any claims of harassment too. There's very little down side to having more data from the cockpits.

The use of police camera is to record the action of police and what they're facing. That's the same information being recorded by existing blackbox in aircraft.

The spatial information video recording provides is very valuable, both when a police officer is documenting the time urgency of decision making, and when determining what a pilot was actually looking at/visual information. This is not just as simple as 'black box' data metrics, but also includes nonverbal communications/indicia of focus/analysis. It's coming, inevitably. Eventually it will reach many more corners, including doctors, etc.

Trump probably wishes he had a recording of every interaction he ever had with someone who had once spoken with a Russian, for instance. If storage costs aren't the concerns, what is the objection in terms of pilot recordings?

Even if you add video recorder on the cockpit in ordinary angles, you can't tell what they're focusing, unless what you want is to look at pilot's face all the time and analyse every single breath they are making.

I don't get the storage issue. Do the CVR & FDR not overwrite after a period of time? Same with video. Rolling 30 days of capture or what ever the number is. Look at what we're hearing about the lion air accident. Apparently the day before there was an issue with that same aircraft. Would be great to truly study the actions of both flights crews, understand their reactions and possibly see what they're seeing/not seeing. Could cockpit design be enhanced as a results. Tons to learn.

Data size is a non-issue. A rolling 12 hours of HD video from multiple angles could easily fit on a single hard drive (and probably a backup in case the first fails). The hard drives plus the cameras would be a couple thousand dollars and a couple dozen pounds of extra weight. A total non-issue.

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.
I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years were a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

The cost is so low to record video, so why not? More information is always better. There could be situations where the FDR fails/unrecoverable, but the video is intact. In that case it would be very helpful to have the video

I lost family in the Mt Erebus crash of 1979. The visual illusion of sector whiteout was one of the causes. In this case what the pilots could or could not see warrantd two investigations.

For this reason, as well as susbsequent disputed accidents, I personally support cockpit video recording for flight safety purposes.

I have worked under continuous video surveillance at multiple places of work so I absolutely appreciate the need for appropriate protections around the use of footage gathered in the workplace.

Seems a natural progress in combination with GADSS.
Also for flight protection, stopping people trying to crash the aircraft.
ATC could have a look and e.g. level out an aircraft. Could have saved a lot of lives.
Helping out crews in distress.. new technology opens up new options, let's not be afraid.

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

But it could have helped in the investigations especially some obscure incidents such as the Egyptair crash which has already been quoted a few posts above.

There are many incidents where a camera could have helped in the investigation.

The Russian A310 crash involving the child at the controls although that was a few years ago.

A recent incident being the suicidal nut case that crashed the Eurowings A320 into the Alps.

I'm all for the cockpit to be recorded, I'm used to surveillance in my work place so why shouldn't the cockpit of a commercial aircraft be any different regardless of the black box.

The cockpit is workplace after all.

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

In addition to the already mentioned Egyptair crash, the SilkAir crash of 1997 was another disputed accident. The cause could have been suicide or 737 rudder roll over. Prior to the crash the CVR and FDR stopped working. It’s been contended, but not proved, that they were discretely disabled by one of the flight crew. Video may have answered these questions.

Sadly a common link appears to be deliberate pilot action. In the case of SilkAir, there is a strong possiblity that the action was intended to hinder accident investigation and/or make it difficult to determine which pilot committed the crime. The latter would be important for insurance payouts.

If a pilot was trying to hide their silent actions, maybe this is could have been an instance where the presence of video recording could have prevented this crash?

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

I see the argument going both ways on this. But then I start thinking about how NASA/SpaceX/RS-E(Cosmonauts)have internal and external video feeds. Sure they are live feeds, but the concept is sound and helps. As others have mentioned, we have the technology to store such data onboard like another black box. Just a thought.

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

It could be of tremendous help with the Atlas Air investigation and with Egypt Air flight 804

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804

djm18 wrote:

I am hoping this thread generates some healthy spirited debate. It seems quite amazing that this is not yet a standard feature, especially when we now live in a world were almost everything is on video. It would be wonderful for experienced professionals to constructively walk us through the arguments FOR and AGAINST.

thoughts anyone?

This issue has been discussed ad nausea every time there is a crash, and every time the conclusion is the same, DFDR and CVR are enough to solve 99,9 percent of the crashes, and for the 0,1 percent that those devices can't solve, there will be no difference with a set of GoPros. Besides, cockpit crews doesn't want this, and the chances of having useful information from a camera after a crash are very low.

We should move on.

Rgds.
G.

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

Just like the recorded CCTV in everyday environments such as buildings along with a Bus, Coach, Ship, Train, there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Investigators have to look at a lot of very graphic material after a major incident such as an air crash there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.

As much as you and I and many other reasonable people find the thought of people ''burning and exploding'' horrific the onboard cockpit video could bring so much more to an investigation rather than solely relying on the black box which isn't always reliable at the best of times.

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

Just like the recorded CCTV in everyday environments such as buildings along with a Bus, Coach, Ship, Train, there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.

Investigators have to look at a lot of very graphic material after a major incident such as an air crash there is absolutely no difference whatsoever.

As much as you and I and many other reasonable people find the thought of people ''burning and exploding'' horrific the onboard cockpit video could bring so much more to an investigation rather than solely relying on the black box which isn't always reliable at the best of times.

djm18 wrote:

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

And still cvr transscripts are published word by word. It's only a matter of time before video is used for.more than accidents and broadcast on Fox.

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

Deleted duplicate

Are there videos on every surgery done for accountability of doctors?

kiowa wrote:

Are there videos on every surgery done for accountability of doctors?

I would say that was a totally different argument for not having video coverage of the cockpit, full CCTV on an aircraft could also help in investigations concerning air rage incidents.


Considering how much CCTV there are in public places such as hospitals I wouldn't be surprised if there was such coverage in an operating theatre, not every hospital but I'm sure that it's not as uncommon as you think it might be, not necessarily for accountability of the doctors.

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

texl1649 wrote:

I think this is inevitable. Especially as we get toward 1 pilot operations (akin to ET). The lack of qualified pilots globally to meet needs over the next two decades can be partially mitigated by making sure the guys/gals up there know they are tracked/recorded.

This was resisted initially by Police in the US, for comparison, but is now known to basically be a big net positive. If you might be in a cockpit alone with a member of the opposite sex, too, for many hours at a time I would surely want 'film' to support/rebut any claims of harassment too. There's very little down side to having more data from the cockpits.

I'm sorry since when are we getting towards single-pilot ops? Airplanes are getting more complex, no matter what manufacturers say. As it is right now, if you put a single human being, no matter how capable, behind the controls of a commercial aircraft, at some point they are guarranteed to mess it up. Yes at some point we may see that, but that point is in the distant future, if it's even there.

Meanwhile I would support the transmission of live black box data. I don't see how it would be so expensive it would be a deal-breaker. I mean a lot of stuff in aviation is based on (almost) live data transmissions, and in the day we can access one of billions of web pages from anywhere in the world in miliseconds and transfer data in a heartbeat I doubt it would be that expensive. And unlike on-board cameras (which could be exploited against pilot wishes, and could have a lot of unexpected side effects) live data can actually help investigators of any accident access the data faster, or in some cases (see MH370 aka the reason live black box data transfering is even on the table) even at all.

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

It's unbelievable that know one has mentioned flight MH370 in this thread upto now, how could anyone not forget that incident considering that it's just passed the 5th anniversary.

I'm pleased that you added flight MH370, a perfect example of why a cockpit video would have been an advantage.

Why can't cameras be triggered by some predetermined sequence of events? If the flight is normal, no recording.

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

YYCguy wrote:

anshabhi wrote:

Instead of this work should be done on transmitting black box data in real time to land based servers, which would antiquate the need of finding black boxes, which is often a miserable task.

I read about this idea several years ago in one of my aviation enthusiast magazines. It was dismissed pretty much out of hand due to costs, and the amount of data storage required. Perhaps things have changed enough over the years to consider it again?

you can buy a 1tb ssd for a couple hundred bucks. while a aviation grade version that can survive a crash would be much more expensive, i dont think it would be that undoable. it could certainly be feasible to film the last couple of flights.

Amsterdam wrote:

That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.

no one said it had to be released. besides. theres literally thousands of videos of people dying that way on the internet

Doesn't B6 on their aircraft already have cameras that the pilots can see into the cabin? If they want to film us why are pilots so special that they can't be filmed?

Kindanew wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

But you need to find the plane, first. His idea is much better.

Kindanew wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

Maybe, maybe not. Imagine the following:

One pilot shoots/stabs the other. This downed pilot gives out no or very little sound during the attack (throat slit or shot in the head, for example). Then his body is laid on the floor of the cockpit behind the seats (probably harder than it seems, but still doable). Then the rogue pilot flips a coin to decide in which seat to sit in order to terminate his/her sinister deed. From there on, he utters absolutely nothing.

How would you know which pilot did it? Or, if the plane is never found, how would you even know what happened at all? (Think MH370 again.) Could have been some gas incapacitating the pilots or a bunch of other things. We would be back at guesswork...

Well, I think today is a good time for cabin/gallery video. More important than cockpit video, in my opinion.

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.

But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

Maybe, maybe not. Imagine the following:

One pilot shoots/stabs the other. This downed pilot gives out no or very little sound during the attack (throat slit or shot in the head, for example). Then his body is laid on the floor of the cockpit behind the seats (probably harder than it seems, but still doable). Then the rogue pilot flips a coin to decide in which seat to sit in order to terminate his/her sinister deed. From there on, he utters absolutely nothing.

How would you know which pilot did it? Or, if the plane is never found, how would you even know what happened at all? (Think MH370 again.) Could have been some gas incapacitating the pilots or a bunch of other things. We would be back at guesswork...

Whats to stop the murderous pilot from disabling or covering the cameras?

Kindanew wrote:

MalevTU134 wrote:

Kindanew wrote:

But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

Maybe, maybe not. Imagine the following:

One pilot shoots/stabs the other. This downed pilot gives out no or very little sound during the attack (throat slit or shot in the head, for example). Then his body is laid on the floor of the cockpit behind the seats (probably harder than it seems, but still doable). Then the rogue pilot flips a coin to decide in which seat to sit in order to terminate his/her sinister deed. From there on, he utters absolutely nothing.

How would you know which pilot did it? Or, if the plane is never found, how would you even know what happened at all? (Think MH370 again.) Could have been some gas incapacitating the pilots or a bunch of other things. We would be back at guesswork...

Whats to stop the murderous pilot from disabling or covering the cameras?

Nothing. But the cockpit would of course be covered by more than one camera, and you would see which pilot goes around covering them up.