Max Q
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:28 pm

I used to be against this but I’ve changed my mind

As long as, like the CVR it can be erased by the pilots after every flight (unless needed) then I think it could be useful in accident investigation


As just one example it would help clarify what happened with the Atlas 767 in Houston
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LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:43 pm

MH370? We haven't found MH370. It would have needed the video stream transmitted.That's a whole other thing.

Once you know where the cameras are, you can probably cover them without revealing yourself.

I like the idea of cameras, but I don't think they are going to thwart criminals.
 
d8s
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:50 pm

djm18 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
- pilots dont want to be a reality show actors
- voice recorders + flight input recorders provide even more info than just video.
so you dont progress more if you'll have cockpit video from Lion and Ethiopean planes


Very well understand the concern of pilots, well founded. But it could have been of great help with Egypt 990 and others. It could also be an invaluable training tool to help pilots perform better through situations.

And let me also add in the AGAINST column that it would be very difficult for the families of the pilots to have to see the last moments of their loved ones.


How would it have helped Egypt Air 990? The CVR and FDR told the story.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:51 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
MH370? We haven't found MH370. It would have needed the video stream transmitted.That's a whole other thing.

Once you know where the cameras are, you can probably cover them without revealing yourself.

I like the idea of cameras, but I don't think they are going to thwart criminals.

No. That is the very thing I was talking about. Video streamed to land based servers. Transmission and storage costs fall quickly, should be economically doable very soon, if not even now.

You CAN cover them up without being seen, of course, but they could be equipped with intelligent software, sounding an alarm, alerting the other pilot, maybe even unlocking the cockpit door... At least worth considering. Nothing is fool-proof, but it can sure help.
 
winginit
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:01 pm

djm18 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.


Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

It could be of tremendous help with the Atlas Air investigation and with Egypt Air flight 804

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804


I believe at least in the United States there are a great many public school busses that now have cameras installed in them. Would be curious to learn how that's managed when it comes to incidents as I think you could possibly adopt similar protocols to a cockpit setup.

Even a large proportion of fast food chains in the United States now have robust CCTV, so I'm certainly not opposed to something similar being in place for those piloting multi-million dollar pieces of equipment.
Last edited by winginit on Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:01 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
MH370? We haven't found MH370. It would have needed the video stream transmitted.That's a whole other thing.

Once you know where the cameras are, you can probably cover them without revealing yourself.

I like the idea of cameras, but I don't think they are going to thwart criminals.

No. That is the very thing I was talking about. Video streamed to land based servers. Transmission and storage costs fall quickly, should be economically doable very soon, if not even now.

You CAN cover them up without being seen, of course, but they could be equipped with intelligent software, sounding an alarm, alerting the other pilot, maybe even unlocking the cockpit door... At least worth considering. Nothing is fool-proof, but it can sure help.


So someone could be watching it live then? Listening too, of course. If an anomaly was detected, I mean.

Might as well make it two way then. Pilots could be told to hit the trim cutout switches, or whatever they need to do that they haven't done.

You could essentially have a third pilot come on line if anything unusual was detected about the plane. He could advise the crew. It's only one more step...
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:13 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
MH370? We haven't found MH370. It would have needed the video stream transmitted.That's a whole other thing.

Once you know where the cameras are, you can probably cover them without revealing yourself.

I like the idea of cameras, but I don't think they are going to thwart criminals.

No. That is the very thing I was talking about. Video streamed to land based servers. Transmission and storage costs fall quickly, should be economically doable very soon, if not even now.

You CAN cover them up without being seen, of course, but they could be equipped with intelligent software, sounding an alarm, alerting the other pilot, maybe even unlocking the cockpit door... At least worth considering. Nothing is fool-proof, but it can sure help.


So someone could be watching it live then? Listening too, of course. If an anomaly was detected, I mean.

Might as well make it two way then. Pilots could be told to hit the trim cutout switches, or whatever they need to do that they haven't done.

You could essentially have a third pilot come on line if anything unusual was detected about the plane. He could advise the crew. It's only one more step...

Adding video to the audio of the radio of today? Sure, in theory. Although I guess for privacy and union concerns it would be encrypted and sent to a land based server and then later erased, unless something untowards has taken place.

Not being a pilot, I cannot tell how desirable it would be in an emergency to deal with flying, the emergency, ATC AND the guy on the video appearing. Would it bother more then help? Maybe the pilots would need to initiate that contact if they deem it helpful?

What I was saying is that IF the software detects the cameras to be covered, it could sound an alarm, unlock the cockpit door, notify ATC and dispatch and maybe do a few other things that others are better positioned to conjure up...
 
djm18
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:16 pm

kiowa wrote:
Are there videos on every surgery done for accountability of doctors?


It is not an issue of accountability of pilots, that is not the point of any investigation. It is about learning about issues that may need to be addressed so as to continue to make flying safer. It is about identifying issues (mechanical, training, etc.) that can help save lives in the future.
 
djm18
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:22 pm

d8s wrote:
How would it have helped Egypt Air 990? The CVR and FDR told the story.


Read the article from the Atlantic. The investigation was very difficult because Egypt Air did not want to accept the idea of a potential suicide. They put a lot of political pressure on the NTSB and Boeing.
 
Cunard
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:32 pm

d8s wrote:
djm18 wrote:
Armadillo1 wrote:
- pilots dont want to be a reality show actors
- voice recorders + flight input recorders provide even more info than just video.
so you dont progress more if you'll have cockpit video from Lion and Ethiopean planes


Very well understand the concern of pilots, well founded. But it could have been of great help with Egypt 990 and others. It could also be an invaluable training tool to help pilots perform better through situations.

And let me also add in the AGAINST column that it would be very difficult for the families of the pilots to have to see the last moments of their loved ones.


How would it have helped Egypt Air 990? The CVR and FDR told the story.


It could have helped the Egyptian authorities to realise the truth behind the crash of Egyptair 990, a case of suicide was the outcome of the inquiry something that was strongly denied at the time by Egypt and probably still so.

A video in that circumstance would have shown the real situation and the Egyptian authorities would have had to agree with the actual findings of the inquiry rather than ignore them for their own personal gain.

The crash of Egyptair 990 is a perfect example of how a cockpit camera would or could have been very helpful regardless of the information supplied by the CVR and FDR.
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Swadian
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:40 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.


We have DriveCams in all highway motorcoaches. The insurance companies are very strict about this. They barely take up any space at all and record in both directions: forward and inside. Coupled with video and telematics it's a very effective tool. Also it's released to public domain at the pleasure of the Motor Carrier, though usually with driver consent unless the driver was at fault in an accident and terminated. Of course all of this is stored in the DriveCam itself, which could easily be destroyed.
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reltney
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:42 pm

No. Not in my cockpit. Based on many cockpit conversations I have had, never have I heard another pilot say they are for it. In fact, many say unless Congressmen have a camera pointed at their face anytime they have a conversation, it won’t be allowed. Good way to shut the airline system down is tell the pilots they will be filmed the entire time they are at work. Not gonna happen.

It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Cheers
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MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:47 pm

reltney wrote:
No. Not in my cockpit. Based on many cockpit conversations I have had, never have I heard another pilot say they are for it. In fact, many say unless Congressmen have a camera pointed at their face anytime they have a conversation, it won’t be allowed. Good way to shut the airline system down is tell the pilots they will be filmed the entire time they are at work. Not gonna happen.

It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Cheers

That point has been made repeatedly in this thread....that many people DO have cameras pointed at them every second of their job. What do pilots do that is so secretive/special?
 
Amsterdam
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:41 am

musman9853 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.



no one said it had to be released. besides. theres literally thousands of videos of people dying that way on the internet


Thats no argument to make even more of those videos available. Everything leaks, and will scare people of flying, plus it can be used as evidence in court and then it will become available for sure.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:58 am

Swadian wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Why? Most cockpits are glass cockpits now. It should be pretty easy once data from the black boxes is extracted to know what all the instruments were displaying. Also video takes a lot more storage space.


We have DriveCams in all highway motorcoaches. The insurance companies are very strict about this. They barely take up any space at all and record in both directions: forward and inside. Coupled with video and telematics it's a very effective tool. Also it's released to public domain at the pleasure of the Motor Carrier, though usually with driver consent unless the driver was at fault in an accident and terminated. Of course all of this is stored in the DriveCam itself, which could easily be destroyed.


A car, bus, or truck, is a very different type of vehicle. Most airplane crashes are not collisions with other aircraft. A large proportion of of motor vehicle crashes involve them crashing into each other.

Also where do you intend to point the cameras? If you knew what kind of accident was going to happen you might be able to figure out where to place cameras to record the relevant details. Many planes do have cameras that can be accessed through video entertainment systems, but to be useful for a crash investigation, a recording would have to survive. That means another black box would have to be dedicated to saving video streams. How many camera feeds would need to be archived? What resolution is required? What frame rate? How much time. Should the video be compressed? Compressed video is more susceptible to damage if the physical medium on which it is recorded is damaged. Pilots have opposed cockpit cameras in part, because they could document the deaths of the pilots and others in the cockpit. They absolutely would not want snuff videos to get released to the public.
Last edited by flyingclrs727 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:00 am

One has to ask, has their been a crash where the CVR and FDR were recovered, that there is doubt to the reason of the crash, where a video would solve it? People mention Egyptair 990. But anyone that knows the architecture of the elevator controls of the 767 knows exactly what was going on!

Suicide accidents are always unpalatable. But in reality, politics aside, the data of a CVR and 2000+ parameter FDR are pretty compelling.

bradyj23 wrote:
Personally, I have no objection to having a camera in the cockpit. But ONLY if I have the same protections as the FDR/CVR. And that the video can ONLY be used in a crash investigation.

In a perfect world, that is exactly what would happen. However ...

The main reason I (as a pilot) am against cockpit videos started very shortly after the Alaska Airlines crash of the MD-80 off the cost of Los Angeles in 2000. It was only a few days later that CNN released the cockpit voice recording of the pilots fighting with the aircraft during the last minutes of their lives.

When asked to reveal sources, CNN stated that the millions (!) they used bribing a government official for a copy of the recording was well worth it due to increased ratings. Then stated that had their been a triple digit death toll instead of only 88, ratings would have been higher. How sad for CNN :roll:

Think of how much CNN would pay today for a video recording!
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benjjk
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:46 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.


But in this case the CVR audio and the FDR telemetry would probably be just as good.

Maybe, maybe not. Imagine the following:

One pilot shoots/stabs the other. This downed pilot gives out no or very little sound during the attack (throat slit or shot in the head, for example). Then his body is laid on the floor of the cockpit behind the seats (probably harder than it seems, but still doable). Then the rogue pilot flips a coin to decide in which seat to sit in order to terminate his/her sinister deed. From there on, he utters absolutely nothing.

How would you know which pilot did it? Or, if the plane is never found, how would you even know what happened at all? (Think MH370 again.) Could have been some gas incapacitating the pilots or a bunch of other things. We would be back at guesswork...


This example means the motivation is not so much about improving safety for future flights, but satisfying our curiosity.

A pilot on another thread said they believed the knowledge that they're being filmed could pressure pilots into making mistakes. I think that risk is slightly overblown but to overcome that argument you need a strong case for cameras.

Video might help shed a bit of light on one or two accidents earlier, but given that unions will surely strike over it I don't think it's worth the gains. A better battle would be the instant transmission of CVR/FDR data.
 
 
d8s
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:43 am

djm18 wrote:
d8s wrote:
How would it have helped Egypt Air 990? The CVR and FDR told the story.


Read the article from the Atlantic. The investigation was very difficult because Egypt Air did not want to accept the idea of a potential suicide. They put a lot of political pressure on the NTSB and Boeing.


Yes, the Egyptian transportation board, and government, would not accept the fact that the pilot purposefully crashed the airplane. I had family on that flight, know all about the political views and the actual reason the plane went down. Even if they had video, the political outcome would be the same.
 
c933103
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:59 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Imagine the following:

One pilot shoots/stabs the other. This downed pilot gives out no or very little sound during the attack (throat slit or shot in the head, for example). Then his body is laid on the floor of the cockpit behind the seats (probably harder than it seems, but still doable). Then the rogue pilot flips a coin to decide in which seat to sit in order to terminate his/her sinister deed. From there on, he utters absolutely nothing.

How would you know which pilot did it? Or, if the plane is never found, how would you even know what happened at all? (Think MH370 again.) Could have been some gas incapacitating the pilots or a bunch of other things. We would be back at guesswork...


Whats to stop the murderous pilot from disabling or covering the cameras?

Nothing. But the cockpit would of course be covered by more than one camera, and you would see which pilot goes around covering them up.

What can knowing this information help? If they're both dead then you cannot charge any one of them anyway. Unless you want to support some authoritarian countries' attempt to punish families of criminals
Knowing the information that which of the two pilots performed suicide cannot do anything to help improve air safety in the future
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Waterbomber2
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:16 am

Well, for the suicide cases, the pilot is not stupid, he's going to cover the lenses before his act.

But for most cases, I see the merit.
It adds a whole lot of context. For instance, in many accidents dead pilots are pointed with the finger for failling at this or that, eaily said when you have all the facts and the time to analyse the data in a quiet and climate controlled room.
Not so much when the bells and whistles are going off, the stick shaking like a surging dildo, while the time bomb keeps ticking and you don't know if you're going to spend dinner tonight at the table with your family or in a coffin at the mortuary waiting to be identified.
 
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InsideMan
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:51 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.


Well, you can always pull the breaker and in that case the only "insight" we would have gotten is, that it was deliberate (which is pretty obvious with the information we have already)
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:22 am

I guarantee you, if cameras are installed in flight decks then the standard preflight procedure for every pilot will be to put a cover over it.

Cameras won’t aid accident investigations or improve safety. Everyone with a brain knows that Egypatair 990 was a deliberate act of murder by the FO. There’s just some people here who would love to see gory footage of the last moments of a flight deck crew.
 
Noshow
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:58 am

I'd say we clearly need cockpit and aircraft cameras (possibly including infrared) and some better way than storing data on drives that crash with the plane.
Safety recordings can't remain the least modern part in an airplane anymore. People get filmed everywhere including in aicraft cabins so better get used to it in cockpits as well.
 
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InsideMan
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:06 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I guarantee you, if cameras are installed in flight decks then the standard preflight procedure for every pilot will be to put a cover over it.

Cameras won’t aid accident investigations or improve safety. Everyone with a brain knows that Egypatair 990 was a deliberate act of murder by the FO. There’s just some people here who would love to see gory footage of the last moments of a flight deck crew.


I highly doubt both.....

Noone but crash investigators would get to see the footage and if it is part of the job requirements nobody will cover up the camera.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:06 am

How about cameras that are forward somewhat so that they just show the IP and maybe the hands of the crew? We could see the instruments and we could see what the pilots are doing regarding flying the plane, but we could not see the whole cockpit. I think cameras could be set up that way.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:18 am

LTC8K6 wrote:
How about cameras that are forward somewhat so that they just show the IP and maybe the hands of the crew? We could see the instruments and we could see what the pilots are doing regarding flying the plane, but we could not see the whole cockpit. I think cameras could be set up that way.

That would add no information whatsoever.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:24 am

InsideMan wrote:
MalevTU134 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
Modern flight data recorders can record all of the information the pilots can see, every movement of the controls and lots of information that the pilots can’t see.

I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

I can. MH370 for instance. Video of the cockpit, sent to land based servers, would have that one cracked in 30 minutes, literally. Now we are 5 years down the road, still guessing and conjuring up theories.


Well, you can always pull the breaker and in that case the only "insight" we would have gotten is, that it was deliberate (which is pretty obvious with the information we have already)

...or you make it in a way that they cannot pull the breaker... After all, what is the reason to be able to pull the breaker on the CVR/FDR/camera? Has there ever been an instance where any of these caused an onboard fire?
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:28 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I guarantee you, if cameras are installed in flight decks then the standard preflight procedure for every pilot will be to put a cover over it.

Cameras won’t aid accident investigations or improve safety. Everyone with a brain knows that Egypatair 990 was a deliberate act of murder by the FO. There’s just some people here who would love to see gory footage of the last moments of a flight deck crew.

That should lead to instant suspension or dismissal. Safety equipment shouldn't be used at the pilots' discretion. It is there for a reason.
 
greg3322
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:13 pm

My thoughts on this... I work in the railroad industry in the US. Airlines and railroads have a lot in common in the US (The Railway Labor Act covers both). When I started railroading about 20 years ago, an 8-parameter event recorder (just like a flight data recorder) was common. Now, the railroad I work for has a 54-parameter recorder. The railroad also installed forward and rearward looking video cameras and within the last year, installed an in-cab camera that sees everything. Do the employees like it? No. Do they accept it? Yes. The unions fought it and lost. The courts have ruled (at least for railroads) that employees have no expectation to privacy on the job.

All these comments about storage space and such is nonsense. The equipment at my railroad can store at least a week of three cameras worth of HD video on a single hardened solid state hard drive. In addition, the system can transmit the data (via cellular or satellite network) to a cloud server at specified intervals and can be accessed at any time via a web login. The in-cab cameras are tightly controlled on who can access the data from them. The system has paid for itself many times over by avoiding lawsuits and improving rules compliance. Anyone covering or otherwise tampering with the cameras is terminated from employment - and those terminations have held up in court as well.

It is only a matter of time until there are cameras in the cockpits. I hope it happens soon.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:43 pm

greg3322 wrote:
It is only a matter of time until there are cameras in the cockpits. I hope it happens soon.

Your comments remind me of how many train cab videos of crashes I have seen and how awful it must have been for the families of those lost.

But as your comments are valid, I am curious ...

For what reason were cameras put in train cabs? Were there any train crashes that were not solved and these videos actually could help in solving them? I am sure there must have been a reason, I am curious what that reason was.

That brings me back to the question I raised above. With 2000+ parameter FDRs presently installed in modern aircraft, that can be plugged into a flight simulator to be "replayed", then add in CVRs, has there actually been a crash that was left unsolved, where the CVR and FDR were recovered?

In my opinion, the next step in this area should be streaming data back to a central storage, so that with the loss of an aircraft, data is immediately available. Finding the actual CVR and FDR would now no longer be necessary. I think a lot of us can cite many examples where this would have been useful.

An area where cockpit videos would help, are those smaller aircraft not equipped with the necessary equipment to collect and store CVR and FDR data. Much like dash cams in cars, only more advanced and possibly crash protected.
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washingtonflyer
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:53 pm

There were several major rail incidents where it was believed that the engineer was texting while at the controls and one where it was believed the engineer was nodding off. In the Amtrak 188 disaster in Philadelphia, the engineer claimed that he was distracted by kids throwing rocks at the windscreen and that the distraction caused the engineer to become disoriented.

The in-cab video would have laid these issues to rest.

You also have simple tests of assessing whether a train violated a red signal.

We're currently buzzing around the Atlas crash in Houston - did someone fall on the control column? Was it suicide? Was the crew disoriented? In cockpit video would have knocked at least two theories down with a simple one- or two-time read through.

As to pilots stating that they will cover up cameras in the cockpit, why not then go ahead and disable the CVR and FDR while you're at it if you're so hell bent on breaking rules? Comments like that are beyond shameful.
 
wingnutmn
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:18 pm

djm18 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.


Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

It could be of tremendous help with the Atlas Air investigation and with Egypt Air flight 804

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804


The videos would never be kept private or classified. Once the NTSB or FAA get a copy of it, the Freedom of Information Act would allow any news outlet to file a request for it and be able to use or air it. There is no such thing as privacy when it comes to videos and the government. I currently learn more and would continue to learn more from reading the reports from accidents, and getting the details, than watching 2 pilots fight controls or miss read instruments. Think of it like this, would it make you feel any different if you read the report on AF 447, with all the details given? Or would you feel better seeing the pilots fight each other on the controls? I don't need to see that to understand they weren't trained well.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
lostsound
Posts: 634
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:20 pm

reltney wrote:
No. Not in my cockpit. Based on many cockpit conversations I have had, never have I heard another pilot say they are for it. In fact, many say unless Congressmen have a camera pointed at their face anytime they have a conversation, it won’t be allowed. Good way to shut the airline system down is tell the pilots they will be filmed the entire time they are at work. Not gonna happen.

It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Cheers


In almost every work place there are cameras. Pilots do not get a free pass and should be
held accountable for their actions like everyone else. The cockpit is not for shenanigans,
it is a job. It is not the pilot's plane it is the Airline's. It is a workplace.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:26 pm

wingnutmn wrote:
djm18 wrote:
Amsterdam wrote:
That will mean making live videos of people burning and exploding.


Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

It could be of tremendous help with the Atlas Air investigation and with Egypt Air flight 804

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804


The videos would never be kept private or classified. Once the NTSB or FAA get a copy of it, the Freedom of Information Act would allow any news outlet to file a request for it and be able to use or air it.

Wingnut


Exempt from FOIA. Congress has explicitly mandated this exemption. 49 U.S.C. § 1114(c)
 
ltbewr
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:59 pm

Perhaps have video cameras in the cockpit but have them only active around takeoffs and landings, triggered by significant activity sensed in the FDR or even the CVR like a sudden change in altitude, speed, planned route, certain levels of turbulence or possibly conflicting data (like from blocked pitot tubes), mechanical or electrical changes. By such limited use, along with the continuous FDR and CVR's would likely balance the privacy and 'big brother' issues and provide really useful info if an incident or crash. They could also for used training and to review of new systems as to how work (or not) with pilots.
 
sovietjet
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:03 pm

CVR and FDR are fine enough, but the real problem is that they aren't transmitted in real time. While every passenger in the back is casually surfing wifi, facebook and streaming video for $5, you mean to tell me it's impossible for simple CVR/FDR data to be transmitted back using the same method? I don't buy it. The technology is there and has been there for years. The arguments about cost and bandwidth and blah blah blah all sound like excuses to me. It's a lot easier than having to dig out the boxes from the middle of the ocean. I wonder how much MH370 searching has cost so far...
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:08 pm

sovietjet wrote:
CVR and FDR are fine enough, but the real problem is that they aren't transmitted in real time. While every passenger in the back is casually surfing wifi, facebook and streaming video for $5, you mean to tell me it's impossible for simple CVR/FDR data to be transmitted back using the same method? I don't buy it. The technology is there and has been there for years. The arguments about cost and bandwidth and blah blah blah all sound like excuses to me. It's a lot easier than having to dig out the boxes from the middle of the ocean. I wonder how much MH370 searching has cost so far...

Agree 100%!!! However, video could be helpful in certain (although limited) instances.
 
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Moose135
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:22 pm

reltney wrote:
It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Many work places have video coverage of employees on the job, why are airline pilots so special, beyond the fact that you have stronger union protection?

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I guarantee you, if cameras are installed in flight decks then the standard preflight procedure for every pilot will be to put a cover over it.

And those pilots should be disciplined if they do that, just as they should if they deliberately shut off the FDR or CVR.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
astaz
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:25 pm

I read things all the time about live streaming data from aircraft or ACARS, but I wonder if people truly understand how difficult this would be.... Modern FDRs record a minimum of 88 parameters, and that data would have to be transmitted by the second. The ACARS transfer rate over VHF is something like 2.4 kB/s. It would never be able to keep up!

So now you wanna live stream HD video, from multiple feeds to the ground? A one minute video would be 100 MB, so let’s say you had three cameras... 300 MB of data every minute that had to be transferred. I’m not sure if you’ve ever used go-go, but most people don’t get these kind of upload speeds at home, let alone on an airplane.

Now let’s say, ok, maybe a storage device is the way to go. Uplink isn’t going to be a solution. Other than pure impatience, and a desire to not wait for the results of the investigation, what good to the cameras do for the added cost? MH370 still wouldn’t be solved like some have suggested. Crash simulations from FDR data and CVR overlay are extremely realistic and accurate, and provide as much detail as any cockpit video ever would. The only problem I see here, is that people want to know now. At the end of the day, the parties involved in the investigation have a lot more idea of what happened then we do early on, as they analyze the data. They just don’t share it with the public until they can substantiate it with evidence...
 
FlyingLaw1
Posts: 54
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:38 pm

longhauler wrote:
bradyj23 wrote:


The main reason I (as a pilot) am against cockpit videos started very shortly after the Alaska Airlines crash of the MD-80 off the cost of Los Angeles in 2000. It was only a few days later that CNN released the cockpit voice recording of the pilots fighting with the aircraft during the last minutes of their lives.

When asked to reveal sources, CNN stated that the millions (!) they used bribing a government official for a copy of the recording was well worth it due to increased ratings. Then stated that had their been a triple digit death toll instead of only 88, ratings would have been higher. How sad for CNN :roll:

Think of how much CNN would pay today for a video recording!


WOW. I had not heard that before. That's completely terrible. Was the government official every punished??
 
Noshow
Posts: 904
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:00 pm

That story sounds a bit like a horror tale to me.
Recordings can be leaked this is true.
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6250
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:06 pm

Moose135 wrote:
reltney wrote:
It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Many work places have video coverage of employees on the job, why are airline pilots so special, beyond the fact that you have stronger union protection?

sierrakilo44 wrote:
I guarantee you, if cameras are installed in flight decks then the standard preflight procedure for every pilot will be to put a cover over it.

And those pilots should be disciplined if they do that, just as they should if they deliberately shut off the FDR or CVR.


Pilots are 100% accountable and always have been. If there is anything untoward going on in the cockpit, the CVR (and possibly) FDR would certainly show just that.

The big issue, is that unlike a regular workplace, the only time the general public would ever see such a video would be to witness the death of the pilots involved. Just like people slowing past an accident on a highway, human nature is often very ghoulish and clearly a lot of people feel it is their right to watch these deaths.

Understand, unions (and pilots) have no problem with the existence of these videos in the interest of air safety and large unions (ALPA for example) have stated exactly that. ALPA has also stated that as soon as it can be guaranteed that these videos would only been seen by accident investigators and not news media and "ghouls" then they can not endorse it.

As the vast majority of investigative bodies can not guarantee this ... the issue usually ends. (And has to date). The only time it arises is when the general public want some sort of odd entertainment.
Last edited by longhauler on Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6250
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:11 pm

FlyingLaw1 wrote:
WOW. I had not heard that before. That's completely terrible. Was the government official every punished??

Eventually, after the investigation is complete, all data becomes the public domain. CVR recordings included.

This issue was not the recording, but the timing involved. Namely, it was released within days of the accident, about a year before the recording was released to the public.

And why? ... because to achieve the ratings increase required to justify the cost, the news still had to be "fresh". A "year later" just wouldn't cut it!

As far as I know, American law allows the news media to protect its source.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:25 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
We're currently buzzing around the Atlas crash in Houston - did someone fall on the control column? Was it suicide? Was the crew disoriented? In cockpit video would have knocked at least two theories down with a simple one- or two-time read through.

This is an interesting point and as I have been involved in several air investigations I can shed some light ...

Normally, very shortly after the FDR and CVR data are analysed, the investigators have a pretty good idea of the cause of the crash. If that cause is likely to occur again quickly, advisories are made to governmental bodies. The two 737 Max accidents recently are an excellent example. The investigaors saw a possible issue that affected safety and it was made public. Even though the investigation isn't even remotely near completion.

If however, they see a possible cause and also see it is not likely to occur again, then they complete the investigation per the normal schedule and process. So it isn't that the investigators don't know what caused the Atlas crash at Houston, in my opinion, they do know ... it is just not yet public. (This is just my opinion).

The best acid test about these videos, would be after the investigation is complete and made public. If they still don't know and perhaps a video would complete the puzzle, then I agree, it would be a further useful tool. And that was the basis of my comments earlier ... has there been an accident where the CVR and FDR were recovered, that is still unsolved?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:28 pm

longhauler wrote:

The main reason I (as a pilot) am against cockpit videos started very shortly after the Alaska Airlines crash of the MD-80 off the cost of Los Angeles in 2000. It was only a few days later that CNN released the cockpit voice recording of the pilots fighting with the aircraft during the last minutes of their lives.

When asked to reveal sources, CNN stated that the millions (!) they used bribing a government official for a copy of the recording was well worth it due to increased ratings. Then stated that had their been a triple digit death toll instead of only 88, ratings would have been higher. How sad for CNN :roll:

Think of how much CNN would pay today for a video recording!


You’ll have cite that before I believe it. Just did a lexis/nexus search and came up with no mention of this happening anywhere. Where did you get this?
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 263
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:48 pm

As ever the astounding levels of naivety and ignorance regurgitated by seemingly sensible people staggers me. The issue of video cameras on the flight deck is a subject that seems to crop up from time to time with the promise of a breakthrough in accident prevention and understanding.
Newsflash folks, most modern full motion simulators have had cameras installed and used in them for about a decade, in this time it has been generally accepted that they would offer no more insight than what the CVR and FDR currently do, moreover there has been further research by my employer no less understand what WOULD offer more insight, particularly in the field of eye tracking.
Put simply cameras on the flight deck create a great many problems and the benefits are few if any in real terms, so no, it won’t happen anytime soon.
This falls into same category as the single pilot or no pilot nonsense that pops up on these boards from the various pilot wannabes or failures.
 
wingnutmn
Posts: 517
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:48 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
wingnutmn wrote:
djm18 wrote:

Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public. It would be especially difficult for the family of the pilots.

It could be of tremendous help with the Atlas Air investigation and with Egypt Air flight 804

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_804


The videos would never be kept private or classified. Once the NTSB or FAA get a copy of it, the Freedom of Information Act would allow any news outlet to file a request for it and be able to use or air it.

Wingnut


Exempt from FOIA. Congress has explicitly mandated this exemption. 49 U.S.C. § 1114(c)


Have you read 49 U.S Code 1114? The exceptions to part C? They always have a public hearing, and there is always some form of public release of the CVR now. How will this not be the case in videos? And to my original point, what will be learned over the current FDR/CVR combo?

(c) Cockpit Recordings and Transcripts.—
(1)Confidentiality of recordings.—
Except as provided in paragraph (2), the Board may not disclose publicly any part of a cockpit voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by and between flight crew members and ground stations related to an accident or incident investigated by the Board.
(2)Exception.—Subject to subsections (b) and (g), the Board shall make public any part of a transcript, any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder, or any still image obtained from a video recorder the Board decides is relevant to the accident or incident—
(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident or incident, at the time of the hearing; or
(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the other factual reports on the accident or incident are placed in the public docket.
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
n6238p
Posts: 421
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:00 pm

I think you all pro live streaming cameras in the cockpit people over estimate the infrastructure around the world built to handle such an endeavor let alone the ability to transmit live data. I can’t tell you how many times in a month I lose ACARS signal and that’s transmitted on a VHF band and I’m still over the continental US. We’re talking I bet billions upon billions of dollars of upgrades just to get that program off the ground. Add in the need for such an investigation being a once a decade events, cmon let’s be realistic here. Look in the cockpit of an commercial flight. Do the pilots have tablets? I bet half of the tablets out there have a piece of tape covering up the camera on the tablet. I know people I fly with that the first thing they would do is put a piece of tape over these cockpit cameras. If the company isn’t monitoring these things, then they’ll never know it’s going on. If the company is, then that’s a major breach of trust in whether or not a company trusts it’s pilots.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
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Matt6461
Posts: 2902
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:07 pm

Yeah. Duh.
With a camera mounted outside the cockpit the pilots would be reality TV stars no more than the passengers and cargo - i.e. not at all.

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