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horsepowerchef
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:45 pm

n6238p wrote:
I think you all pro live streaming cameras in the cockpit people over estimate the infrastructure around the world built to handle such an endeavor let alone the ability to transmit live data. I can’t tell you how many times in a month I lose ACARS signal and that’s transmitted on a VHF band and I’m still over the continental US. We’re talking I bet billions upon billions of dollars of upgrades just to get that program off the ground. Add in the need for such an investigation being a once a decade events, cmon let’s be realistic here. Look in the cockpit of an commercial flight. Do the pilots have tablets? I bet half of the tablets out there have a piece of tape covering up the camera on the tablet. I know people I fly with that the first thing they would do is put a piece of tape over these cockpit cameras. If the company isn’t monitoring these things, then they’ll never know it’s going on. If the company is, then that’s a major breach of trust in whether or not a company trusts it’s pilots.


Treat putting tape over the camera in the cockpit the same as putting tape over the smoke detector in a lavatory.\end

As has been said over and over again, a cockpit is not a personal space, it is a workplace. The aircraft is owned by the airline. The people arguing against cockpit camera's would have probably been probably against CVR's and FDR's too...We all have camera's at work,There is nothing going on up there that should not be able to be seen...just like if they worked anywhere else...
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:46 pm

wingnutmn wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
wingnutmn wrote:

The videos would never be kept private or classified. Once the NTSB or FAA get a copy of it, the Freedom of Information Act would allow any news outlet to file a request for it and be able to use or air it.

Wingnut


Exempt from FOIA. Congress has explicitly mandated this exemption. 49 U.S.C. § 1114(c)


Have you read 49 U.S Code 1114? The exceptions to part C? They always have a public hearing, and there is always some form of public release of the CVR now. How will this not be the case in videos? And to my original point, what will be learned over the current FDR/CVR combo?

(c) Cockpit Recordings and Transcripts.—
(1)Confidentiality of recordings.—
Except as provided in paragraph (2), the Board may not disclose publicly any part of a cockpit voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by and between flight crew members and ground stations related to an accident or incident investigated by the Board.
(2)Exception.—Subject to subsections (b) and (g), the Board shall make public any part of a transcript, any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder, or any still image obtained from a video recorder the Board decides is relevant to the accident or incident—
(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident or incident, at the time of the hearing; or
(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the other factual reports on the accident or incident are placed in the public docket.


Yes, I can read statutory language. I do it all the time.

Part 1 states that the voice recordings or transcripts shall not be publicly disclosed. Parts of the =transcript= must be disclosed if that part is referred to in a hearing. You will note that the public hearings never include the playing recordings of the actual crash.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 5:06 pm

FlyingLaw1 wrote:
longhauler wrote:
bradyj23 wrote:


The main reason I (as a pilot) am against cockpit videos started very shortly after the Alaska Airlines crash of the MD-80 off the cost of Los Angeles in 2000. It was only a few days later that CNN released the cockpit voice recording of the pilots fighting with the aircraft during the last minutes of their lives.

When asked to reveal sources, CNN stated that the millions (!) they used bribing a government official for a copy of the recording was well worth it due to increased ratings. Then stated that had their been a triple digit death toll instead of only 88, ratings would have been higher. How sad for CNN :roll:

Think of how much CNN would pay today for a video recording!


WOW. I had not heard that before. That's completely terrible. Was the government official every punished??


There appears to be no documentation of that claim about CNN bribing an NTSB official.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:07 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
There appears to be no documentation of that claim about CNN bribing an NTSB official.

I am not really all that surprised, as this occurred almost 20 years ago. Had it happened two years ago, internet documention would be much more likely.

I say this respectfully, but I think sometimes in this ease of information age. we forget that the world existed before the internet, facebook, twitter, etc. And ... firmly believe that because we can't find it on our iPad, it couldn't possibly have happened.

Probably the only place it likely would be mentioned would be in editorial comments reflecting on the incident, and then, only in news media that focused on aviation.

I remember it well only because I was acquainted with the accident personally. I was waiting on the ground in YVR about to fly a scheduled flight to SFO. There was a ground stop to SFO and when I asked Clearance why, the answer was that a disabled aircraft headed for SFO has closed the airport. They called back about 15 minutes later with our clearance. When I asked if the aircraft was on the ground the answer was a chilling ... "They didn't make it".

So when I got to where we were going, I was glued to the TV (before the days of the internet). During the next few days, more and more about the accident appeared. Including the much advertised "voice recording of the pilots" last attempt to save the aircraft.

As I was in accident investigation even then, I was curious how this was possible. The "payment for information" was quite public then, and the news media was not ashamed as "it is the public right to information". It was when I started to understand that "journalism" is an entertainment business no different than any other form of entertainment.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 pm

longhauler wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
There appears to be no documentation of that claim about CNN bribing an NTSB official.

I am not really all that surprised, as this occurred almost 20 years ago. Had it happened two years ago, internet documention would be much more likely.

I say this respectfully, but I think sometimes in this ease of information age. we forget that the world existed before the internet, facebook, twitter, etc. And ... firmly believe that because we can't find it on our iPad, it couldn't possibly have happened.

Probably the only place it likely would be mentioned would be in editorial comments reflecting on the incident, and then, only in news media that focused on aviation.

I remember it well only because I was acquainted with the accident personally. I was waiting on the ground in YVR about to fly a scheduled flight to SFO. There was a ground stop to SFO and when I asked Clearance why, the answer was that a disabled aircraft headed for SFO has closed the airport. They called back about 15 minutes later with our clearance. When I asked if the aircraft was on the ground the answer was a chilling ... "They didn't make it".

So when I got to where we were going, I was glued to the TV (before the days of the internet). During the next few days, more and more about the accident appeared. Including the much advertised "voice recording of the pilots" last attempt to save the aircraft.

As I was in accident investigation even then, I was curious how this was possible. The "payment for information" was quite public then, and the news media was not ashamed as "it is the public right to information". It was when I started to understand that "journalism" is an entertainment business no different than any other form of entertainment.


Bribing an NTSB official was very illegal, even 20 years ago.

Social networking was around in 2000.

CNN's supposed claim of source protection simply won't wash, and it wouldn't have worked.

Such a stunning thing would still be in the news today, imo.

Also, a poorly paid NTSB or other official would have great difficulty hiding a sudden influx of millions of dollars.

I do not believe such a bribe occurred at all in 2000.

The story is made up, imo.
Last edited by LTC8K6 on Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
747megatop
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:22 pm

Kindanew wrote:
I can’t think of any accident in the last 30 years where a video of from the cockpit would have made a difference to the investigation.

Silk Air flight 185. But, yes, there aren't that many. The other one that comes to mind is MH 370...provided that the crash data was available in the 1st place for analysis.
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:25 pm

The only source for the bribe claim appears to be you, longhauler?

viewtopic.php?t=772721#p11146913
 
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kczombie
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
Something like this would be helpful

https://youtu.be/jxflGXZxNBM?t=44

However I am not sure all pilots are up for this.

Memory storage is able to handle full flights now.


Nice landing...
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:43 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
Social networking was around in 2000.


In what form?
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:55 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
Social networking was around in 2000.


In what form?


Wiki has a nice history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ne ... ce#History
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:47 pm

LTC8K6 wrote:
The only source for the bribe claim appears to be you, longhauler?

I am going to just walk away from this, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the thread and adds very little. If you wish to start another thread about the ethics of journalism, I would likely participate.

Choose to believe what I say, or ignore it. I try very hard to be polite and respectful, but I think you have a pretty good idea what my respone would be.

One of the things I like about this website is the age of a lot of the members and the experience they hold. I enjoy tales of flying a DC-4, interior colours of a Braniff DC-6, scheduling of B377s in the American Northwest, etc etc etc ... none of which you can find while pecking away wildly at your iPad!

It is however, the "Pictures or it didn't happen" mentality of today's younger generation that makes most older members (and the knowledge they hold) flee from this site. Sad really, as it makes those that remain far less informed.

DarthLobster wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
Social networking was around in 2000.


In what form?


In 2000, while the "internet" existed, most aviation fora were more in the form of BBSs. Sites that one could log onto directly and to which one must be a member. Sometimes paid membership. Rarely anything more than just text. Not really all that surprising as with phone dial-up internet access, it could take quite a while for a page to load.

News though, was mostly through paid sites like AOL or Compuserve and rarely reflected aviation.
Last edited by longhauler on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
LTC8K6
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:53 pm

I'm 52 and I was well into BBS sites while in the Army in the mid 1990s.

I was a calibrator. Jet Cals being one of my least favorite items to calibrate.

If you can't support such an appalling accusation against the NTSB, then you really should quit posting it.
 
SPREE34
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:58 pm

[quote="djm18"
]
Again, the data would only be looked at if needed to aid in the investigation and would not be released to the public.
[/quote]

Once upon a time they (pilots) were told the same about CVRs, now they're all over YouTube and other sources. So much for the assurances of "authorities". Mind if we video and/or audio your death and make some money off of it?
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
n6238p
Posts: 438
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:16 pm

horsepowerchef wrote:
n6238p wrote:
I think you all pro live streaming cameras in the cockpit people over estimate the infrastructure around the world built to handle such an endeavor let alone the ability to transmit live data. I can’t tell you how many times in a month I lose ACARS signal and that’s transmitted on a VHF band and I’m still over the continental US. We’re talking I bet billions upon billions of dollars of upgrades just to get that program off the ground. Add in the need for such an investigation being a once a decade events, cmon let’s be realistic here. Look in the cockpit of an commercial flight. Do the pilots have tablets? I bet half of the tablets out there have a piece of tape covering up the camera on the tablet. I know people I fly with that the first thing they would do is put a piece of tape over these cockpit cameras. If the company isn’t monitoring these things, then they’ll never know it’s going on. If the company is, then that’s a major breach of trust in whether or not a company trusts it’s pilots.


Treat putting tape over the camera in the cockpit the same as putting tape over the smoke detector in a lavatory.\end

As has been said over and over again, a cockpit is not a personal space, it is a workplace. The aircraft is owned by the airline. The people arguing against cockpit camera's would have probably been probably against CVR's and FDR's too...We all have camera's at work,There is nothing going on up there that should not be able to be seen...just like if they worked anywhere else...


Tape over a smoke detector can cause an accident. Tape over a camera cannot. Devils advocate here, lets say someone tapes over the camera, who is going to know? Does this mean real time monitoring of the cameras? Every flight? I don't know if you're an airline pilot, usually advocates for cameras in the cockpit aren't but I can tell you there isn't one flight that goes on that is 100% by the book. Little tiny things that have nothing to do with the safety of the flight but aren't standard go on. All a camera in the cockpit will do is give the company even more of an excuse to pin a failure of some sort on the pilots. I know I would be less than likely to do something that's mission oriented if it requires me to go outside the book. Pilots don't need an extra set of eyes in the cockpit. Anyone who says these cameras wouldn't be used for anything other than an accident investigation are living on a different planet.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
zakelwe
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:54 pm

I'm surprised people claim CVR and FDR can give as much information as video would, it's obviously not the case.

On a CVR when the command is given to do action X on he controls, then it says "Sound of Control X being activated" it does not tell you actually who did it. You have to assume. With video there is no assumption. Also it would show where the pilots were observing, inside or outside the cockpit can be vital in some instances especially with terrain or low visibility might be involved.

The more information the better, I am sure it will come to pass and then people will take it as the norm and think back to the bad old days when we didn't have it and did not have all the data at hand.
 
benjjk
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:34 pm

MalevTU134 wrote:
reltney wrote:
No. Not in my cockpit. Based on many cockpit conversations I have had, never have I heard another pilot say they are for it. In fact, many say unless Congressmen have a camera pointed at their face anytime they have a conversation, it won’t be allowed. Good way to shut the airline system down is tell the pilots they will be filmed the entire time they are at work. Not gonna happen.

It is a good discussion. Unless you are willing to have a camera on you and your work every second you are on the job, don’t expect it at my work place.

Cheers

That point has been made repeatedly in this thread....that many people DO have cameras pointed at them every second of their job. What do pilots do that is so secretive/special?


There's a difference between being on the work CCTV and having HD cameras 3 feet away from you along with recordings of your every word. All while being responsible for multi-million dollar machinery and of course the lives of hundreds of people.

I don't think pilots are special but I can understand the hesitation, especially when the benefits are minimal and potential for misuse is great.
 
jman40
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:56 pm

longhauler wrote:
LTC8K6 wrote:
The only source for the bribe claim appears to be you, longhauler?

I am going to just walk away from this, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the thread and adds very little. If you wish to start another thread about the ethics of journalism, I would likely participate.

Choose to believe what I say, or ignore it. I try very hard to be polite and respectful, but I think you have a pretty good idea what my respone would be.



Walk away if you like, but you've made a questionable claim that you can't or won't back up with proof. Proof and evidence are often the downfall of posters on this board, as I suspect you well know. I'm not a pilot, so I don't have an informed opinion on cameras in the cockpit or CVRs. But I know plenty about journalism, media, and the Internet. I'm not saying what you claim did not happen, but you've made a claim without proof. And a pretty incredible claim at that.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:06 am

jman40 wrote:
Walk away if you like, but you've made a questionable claim that you can't or won't back up with proof. Proof and evidence are often the downfall of posters on this board, as I suspect you well know. I'm not a pilot, so I don't have an informed opinion on cameras in the cockpit or CVRs. But I know plenty about journalism, media, and the Internet. I'm not saying what you claim did not happen, but you've made a claim without proof. And a pretty incredible claim at that.

I am walking away from this tangent on the thread, not from what I said. The ethics of journalism and what happened 20 years ago add nothing to the topic. Mea culpa, I did bring it up and I regret bringing it up as it did lead to a thread drift.

However, as I said before, if you wish to start a new thread on the ethics of journalism, I will certainly participate.

But I think the intent of my statement was missed. Namely, one gentleman on here is defending the actions of the NTSB. You are defending journalistic inegrity. But the point I was making is that it is very very difficult to secure and confirm that these videos would remain solely for investigative purposes and will end up in the public hands.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
jman40
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:25 am

longhauler wrote:
jman40 wrote:
Walk away if you like, but you've made a questionable claim that you can't or won't back up with proof. Proof and evidence are often the downfall of posters on this board, as I suspect you well know. I'm not a pilot, so I don't have an informed opinion on cameras in the cockpit or CVRs. But I know plenty about journalism, media, and the Internet. I'm not saying what you claim did not happen, but you've made a claim without proof. And a pretty incredible claim at that.

I am walking away from this tangent on the thread, not from what I said. The ethics of journalism and what happened 20 years ago add nothing to the topic. Mea culpa, I did bring it up and I regret bringing it up as it did lead to a thread drift.

However, as I said before, if you wish to start a new thread on the ethics of journalism, I will certainly participate.


It is not a tangent at all. You claim that a major news organization illegally (or at least unethically) obtained a CVR recording of a major accident. This is at the core of what many on this thread are saying, that video in the wrong hands would be detrimental to operations and safety in commercial aviation (a perspective I happen to share, BTW).

All I ask is that you provide evidence of your claim. Airliners.net is often quick to criticize journalism and media, and it is often deserved. And perhaps it is in this instance. But a claim that CNN paid millions, and then publicly lamented that they could have gotten even higher ratings under different circumstances requires proof.

And as for starting a new thread? I doubt it would last long, as this is not journalismethics.net.

JM
 
StuckInCA
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:25 am

greg3322 wrote:
...employees have no expectation to privacy on the job.


That's the part that confuses me about pilot's arguments against this. I've worked for publicly traded US companies for a few decades now. Each has required me to sign a document that I should not expect privacy; that everything I do may be recorded even by video, every email and text may be read, keystrokes to websites are fair game.

I don't love that, but I accept the reality. They pay me to do a job and to conduct myself professionally. It is what it is. If this would change someone's behavior, perhaps it needs changing.
 
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mfranjic
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:44 pm


… just like most of You, and who participate in this thread, enhanced by those recent aviation accidents, I have also started to wonder how possible would it be for the crews to get the life-saving advice in those moments, minutes sometimes, and when the situation begins to loose control. In some, or most, situations, it is literally about seconds. However, in some accidents, and there are the readout analysis (FDR, CVR) that confirm that, the crews were spending a lot of precious time unsuccessfully trying to find out what's going on with the aircraft.

….That's why, all by themselves, some questions are imposing to me ...

….Would it be possible to install, in the cockpit of each airliner, a live-streaming and recording capable 4K 360° VR camera that would cover just the Flight Deck Panel Posters: the flight instrument panel, the center pedestal (control stand) and the overhead panel? I guess it would. Does it need to be switched on all the time? Of course not. Who would, if needed, turn it on? The crew itself.

….Would it be possible to install, or does it in a certain way already exist, in the cockpit of each airliner a remote satellite reading of the flight parameters and information derived from the on-board systems?

….Would it be possible to immediately enable (in this moment cockpit camera turns on) for the crew of the airliner in the crisis situation the live-streaming link with the factory's emergency center in which would always be a couple of duty service team, composed of the probe pilot(s) and engineer(s), ready and capable of understanding (by reading the data and watching the cockpit camera) the aircraft's situation and give the specific advice and guidance to the crew?

….Would this system be embeddable, or vice versa, into the new one Aireon's space-based ADS-B.global air traffic surveillance system using a satellite-based, space-based Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) network that will be able to meet the strict real time ATS surveillance requirements, required for air traffic separation services anywhere in the world?

….Just a small reminder; ADS-B is an air traffic surveillance technology that relies on aircraft broadcasting their identity, a precise Global Positioning System (GPS) position and other information derived from the on-board systems. The data is broadcast every half a second from the aircraft, and is being used by Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) to identify and separate aircraft in real-time. Space-based ADS-B extends the same ADS-B technology currently received on ground-based receivers to space…

….I do understand how much it is easier to imagine something than to realize that as the project, and again, each project is the result of some idea. The difference is that there are great ideas, but also and those others, stupid and meaningless. Yet, some of those latter seem to be such just in the beginning …

….The main concern would probably be, from the technical side, how to push the 4K signal through the satellite channel. After all, who says it has to be 4K 360° camera? It could be a 2K 360° camera...

….How about all those people seating in the aircraft's cabins who use their smartphones and laptops during the flight? Those informations are transmitted to and from the smartphones and laptops via the fuselage-mounted SATCOM antennas, using the SwiftBroadband flexible IP connectivity standard, which connects to the closest satellite signal. Information is passed between the ground and the plane via the satellite. Wi-Fi signal is distributed to the passengers in aircraft via an on board router, so ... I see no reason why the crew wouldn't be allowed to use all that technology. And yet something more advanced. Or they already do?

….In some cases this "Emergency Advice Callsystem" wouldn't be of a great, if any, help. But in some of them, it certainly would save a hundreds of lives. The main question is how much someone's life worths and in which units its value is measured. I wish if someone would seriously think about introducing this system to airplanes. And make it work ...

….For those who lost their lives in those tragedies it will be too late…

From the .Ethiopian Airlines Flight 409 crash site …
Image

Image

….…Image

….For those who left behind them, it will be a poor consolation. They will continue to live with their pain and endless void in themselves...

Image

Image

Image

….For all those who will continue to fly on the aircraft, it could mean increased safety…

Image

Image

……..Image

….Unfortunately, that's the life; for somebody it will always be just too late...

….I deeply believe that the souls of those, and who were taken away to the death by those aircraft, saw the face of God and before their bodies touched the Earth. In my compassionate prayers are all those who left behind them, trying to continue their lives with the pain and endless void. I hope they will succeed in the endeavor to find the strength in themselves to continue living for those who remain in their lives. In a special way, I am particularly feeling sorry, and recommend them to God's grace, for all those whose gods on the Earth bear the names: Profit, Earnings, Deception, Fraud, Insensitivity, Ruthlessness ... Too many of them to stay in the same sentence, enough to conquer the hearts of many ...

Mario
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile" - Albert Einstein
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:41 pm

sovietjet wrote:
CVR and FDR are fine enough, but the real problem is that they aren't transmitted in real time. While every passenger in the back is casually surfing wifi, facebook and streaming video for $5, you mean to tell me it's impossible for simple CVR/FDR data to be transmitted back using the same method? I don't buy it. The technology is there and has been there for years. The arguments about cost and bandwidth and blah blah blah all sound like excuses to me. It's a lot easier than having to dig out the boxes from the middle of the ocean. I wonder how much MH370 searching has cost so far...


If the satellite tracking systems that were in place for the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes had been in place for MH370, the location of the MH370 crash site would have been known to within a few miles. It would have drastically cut down the search area. Transmitting all the data from every flight in the world would be very expensive and would just create a huge data storage problem. There would have to be lots of barns built to house the haystacks needed to secure the one needle. I think that real time tracking of all flights should have been implemented after AF447 in 2009. Had that been implemented for all ETOPS flights, MH370 would have been tracked. For that matter, had the whereabouts of MH370 been known accurately throughout the flight, it may have deterred the captain from crashing the plane at all. He appeared to want to find a very remote place to crash the plane in order to prevent it from ever being found.

If there is to be full uploads of data from the black boxes, that should happen in situations when there are serious deviations from flight plans. It would have been very useful had data from the 4 planes hijacked on 9/11/2001 been automatically been uploaded to United and American Airlines when the terrorists started deviating from the planned flight paths. One of the big problems on that day was trying to figure out which planes might be controlled by terrorists. If all of a sudden multiple planes started uploading data, that would be a very early warning of a serious situation.
 
fluoride
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:11 am

horsepowerchef wrote:
As has been said over and over again, a cockpit is not a personal space, it is a workplace.

Well, that might be a solid justification for a camera in some countries but not nearly everywhere. There are countries where you're entitled to enjoy privacy in every non-public area including workplace and there must be a legitimate reason for recording video of people and this includes security cameras. In this case that legitimate reason very likely exists but cameras couldn't be installed without formal discussions with the staff whether or not their opinion really matter.
 
greg3322
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Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:15 am

In my opinion, cameras were largely installed in locomotive cabs for liability. It started with outside cameras and the results of grade crossing collisions. Often, the drivers were in the wrong, but still won in court. Once videos started showing up, that happened less frequently. I have investigated rail accidents that the video made all the difference. Data recorders can only do so much.

Live streaming FDRs would be the next best thing.

longhauler wrote:
For what reason were cameras put in train cabs? Were there any train crashes that were not solved and these videos actually could help in solving them? I am sure there must have been a reason, I am curious what that reason was.

That brings me back to the question I raised above. With 2000+ parameter FDRs presently installed in modern aircraft, that can be plugged into a flight simulator to be "replayed", then add in CVRs, has there actually been a crash that was left unsolved, where the CVR and FDR were recovered?

In my opinion, the next step in this area should be streaming data back to a central storage, so that with the loss of an aircraft, data is immediately available. Finding the actual CVR and FDR would now no longer be necessary. I think a lot of us can cite many examples where this would have been useful.
 
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SierraPacific
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:26 am

There is a big thing that most people are underestimating in this thread is the cheapness of airlines.

If you were the CEO of an airline, why would you spend millions of dollars on camera equipment and also the giant union fight that would occur for cameras that would only be useful for .0000000001% of flights? That would not vibe with wall street so it is pretty much a non-starter.
 
danj555
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:21 am

Who said the camera had to be on the inside? Why not one like the a350 has at the tip of the tail recording.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Is it time for Cockpit Video to aid in crash investigation?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:32 am

kiowa wrote:
Are there videos on every surgery done for accountability of doctors?


I would like a video of the entire time work is being done on my automobile.

Would show what they actually checked, in the gloried "21 Point Inspection."
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling

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