sonicruiser
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UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:37 pm

 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:09 pm

It happens quite often. Iranian airspace is safe for civilian aircraft, regardless of nationality. Nothing to worry about.
 
anshabhi
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm

They can overfly Iran but not Pakistan
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:31 pm

sonicruiser wrote:

The overfly charges of Iranian Airspace is probably some good cash for the Iranian Government. Since they would already have the Transponder code? They can easily Identify who the flights are for billing purposes.
 
eal
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:03 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

The overfly charges of Iranian Airspace is probably some good cash for the Iranian Government. Since they would already have the Transponder code? They can easily Identify who the flights are for billing purposes.


Given sanctions against Iran how would this payment work?
 
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Acey559
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:06 pm

Permits are required and are included with the flight plan. Occasionally ATC will ask to verify permit numbers and we have to read them back so they can verify them. They usually last for a certain period of time and the flight release will specify when they expire.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
Thunderbolt500
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:34 pm

I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:38 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.


the iranians have been nothing but accommodating and hospitable in these exceedingly rare occasions over the years.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:44 pm

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.


It has happened before with no problem:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336203

It's probably not the first choice for a U.S. airline to divert to, given the lack of spare parts and no diplomatic relations; however, there is nothing inherently dangerous about Iran.

Cuba and the U.S. would overfly each other's territory all the time before diplomatic relations were restored.

And because Russia and China don't hand off aircraft to one another, Mongolia acts as an intermediary on trans-Asian flights.

Weird to the rest of us, normal diplomatic horse hockey to those in power.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:49 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
It happens quite often. Iranian airspace is safe for civilian aircraft, regardless of nationality. Nothing to worry about.


Yes, although I believe this is the first time in a long time US airlines have been allowed overflight.
 
steex
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:51 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
And because Russia and China don't hand off aircraft to one another, Mongolia acts as an intermediary on trans-Asian flights.


Can you expand on this? A pretty good number of flights overfly the China-Russia border directly, are you suggesting some other aviation authority oversees ATC in this zone to facilitate this? Plenty of TPAC flights cross directly between the two in the area between Blagoveshchensk and Khabarovsk, specifically, and there are many direct services between China and Siberia/Far East Russia.
 
Alexdk
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:56 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.


It has happened before with no problem:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=336203

It's probably not the first choice for a U.S. airline to divert to, given the lack of spare parts and no diplomatic relations; however, there is nothing inherently dangerous about Iran.

Cuba and the U.S. would overfly each other's territory all the time before diplomatic relations were restored.

And because Russia and China don't hand off aircraft to one another, Mongolia acts as an intermediary on trans-Asian flights.

Weird to the rest of us, normal diplomatic horse hockey to those in power.


Why don’t Russia and China don’t hand aircraft to one another?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:04 pm

steex wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
And because Russia and China don't hand off aircraft to one another, Mongolia acts as an intermediary on trans-Asian flights.


Can you expand on this? A pretty good number of flights overfly the China-Russia border directly, are you suggesting some other aviation authority oversees ATC in this zone to facilitate this? Plenty of TPAC flights cross directly between the two in the area between Blagoveshchensk and Khabarovsk, specifically, and there are many direct services between China and Siberia/Far East Russia.


I am trying to remember all the details, but this all comes from one of MacArthur Job's "Air Disaster" books, specifically the crash of Aeroflot flight #593. Mr. Job spent a significant amount of time on the routing of this flight, mentioning that this route required overflying Siberia to Irkutsk, then turning south across the very narrow corridor to transit Mongolia, before entering the airspace of China, heading due south until the final approach at HKG. He specifically mentioned this as being necessary due to "non hand-off" from China to Russia.

However, that was 1994, and things have changed. Looking at FlightRadar24, one can see that the bulk of the traffic from East to West seems to be doing the overfly Mongolia thing. Given the Chinese reluctance to open more airspace to commercial traffic though, I wonder if the few stray flights not taking this route are saving significant time or money by using this route.
 
Casablanca
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:30 pm

Atc in Iran is quite professional, albeit very busy nowadays.
Remember my first time routing across there with World Airways, was concerned, tried to speak in my best Canadian accent, LOL..... but since then I have overflown probably a 100 times and always friendly and professional
 
hohd
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:49 pm

Recently flew UA 48 EWR-BOM, the flight did not touch Iranian airspace nor Pakistan air space. It went through Turkey and then Iraq and then on to the Red Sea. UA 82 flights are the problem now as these flights have to avoid Pakistan airspace so they go north of BOM to reach DEL. Flying through Tibet to reach DEL is probably closer, but China, which controls the air space over Tibet does not allow any flights to go over except in emergencies.
 
bomber996
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:18 pm

hohd wrote:
Recently flew UA 48 EWR-BOM, the flight did not touch Iranian airspace nor Pakistan air space. It went through Turkey and then Iraq and then on to the Red Sea. UA 82 flights are the problem now as these flights have to avoid Pakistan airspace so they go north of BOM to reach DEL. Flying through Tibet to reach DEL is probably closer, but China, which controls the air space over Tibet does not allow any flights to go over except in emergencies.


Isn't the lack of overflights of Tibet more due to the possibility of an emergency? With much of the Tibetan Plateau above 10,000ft there is no possibility of getting to a safe altitude with an acceptable cabin pressure altitude in the case of a depressurization.

Peace :box:
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
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Acey559
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:36 pm

It’s not uncommon for controlling agencies to not hand aircraft over. Flying out of Miami, if one is to overfly Cuba, the procedure is for one pilot to call Havana 10 minutes prior to entering Cuban airspace while the other pilot monitors Miami. When we have positive control with Havana we let Miami know and they either allow us to leave frequency or simply acknowledge thereby requiring us to monitor both frequencies. Most of the time they just let us go. Then when transitioning from Cuban to Mexican airspace it’s a mixed bag. Sometimes they’ll work out the transfer and other times we have to call 10 minutes prior and monitor both frequencies. It gets a little busy but isn’t too bad. Havana ATC is extremely friendly and accommodating which helps a lot.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:36 am

hohd wrote:
Recently flew UA 48 EWR-BOM, the flight did not touch Iranian airspace nor Pakistan air space. It went through Turkey and then Iraq and then on to the Red Sea. UA 82 flights are the problem now as these flights have to avoid Pakistan airspace so they go north of BOM to reach DEL. Flying through Tibet to reach DEL is probably closer, but China, which controls the air space over Tibet does not allow any flights to go over except in emergencies.


Yeah, I think this is the first day UA's India flights are using a routing through Iran instead of the Turkey and Iraq routing that they've been using for the past few weeks.
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:53 am

This was something I noted back in the late '80's when I was on a NWA flight from Tokyo to Bangkok. We overflew Vietnam, with the capt. even noting the overfly as part of the routing. I knew very well at that point that we didn't have diplomatic relations with Vietnam and therefore, found it odd.

But with research I found out that flyover rights are not necessarily bound by diplomatic recognition. I do know, though, that Israel does have to do a go around, Qatar needs to fly over Iran as their dipolomatic row with Saudi Arabia also cut off flyover rights, and of course until the mid 2000's, no Taiwanese airline would be allowed to fly over China to Europe, thus the flights to Europe on CI and BR going from Bangkok, rather than nonstops from Taipei.
 
tommy1808
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:02 am

strfyr51 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

The overfly charges of Iranian Airspace is probably some good cash for the Iranian Government. Since they would already have the Transponder code? They can easily Identify who the flights are for billing purposes.


That would be 150 USD or so.... even in the poorest countries that does not constitute "some good cash" for the government.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:07 am

KanaHawaii wrote:
of course until the mid 2000's, no Taiwanese airline would be allowed to fly over China to Europe, thus the flights to Europe on CI and BR going from Bangkok, rather than nonstops from Taipei.


Flights are still not going over China in any other way that using traffic rights from and to Hongkong airspace. And not just Taiwanese airlines, you always fly EU-over-HG
KG-TPE, via Bangkok or, depending on wind, east, than north over Japan and then turn west for Europe. Have never been on a different route, my KLM flight last Monday went over HKG as well.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
UA444
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:29 am

UA’s IAD-DXB used to fly over Iran all the time. So did AMS-BOM when NW and DL flew it. The DC-10 in 2005 that diverted to THR flew that route.
 
speedbird52
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:45 am

Casablanca wrote:
Atc in Iran is quite professional, albeit very busy nowadays.
Remember my first time routing across there with World Airways, was concerned, tried to speak in my best Canadian accent, LOL..... but since then I have overflown probably a 100 times and always friendly and professional

This reminds me when I was a kid visiting Iran and people would ask me where I was from: I would lie and say I was from Canada
 
speedbird52
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:46 am

sonicruiser wrote:
hohd wrote:
Recently flew UA 48 EWR-BOM, the flight did not touch Iranian airspace nor Pakistan air space. It went through Turkey and then Iraq and then on to the Red Sea. UA 82 flights are the problem now as these flights have to avoid Pakistan airspace so they go north of BOM to reach DEL. Flying through Tibet to reach DEL is probably closer, but China, which controls the air space over Tibet does not allow any flights to go over except in emergencies.


Yeah, I think this is the first day UA's India flights are using a routing through Iran instead of the Turkey and Iraq routing that they've been using for the past few weeks.

I find it kind of funny they preferred to route over an actual warzone rather than Iran
 
a300
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:04 pm

The US sanctions against Iran are handled by OFAC, within the Treasury. They have issued blanket licenses for certain transactions. These include overflight charges, consular fees and importation/exportation of death people!

US-registered aircraft overfly Iran all the time, particularly FedEx and UPS. Heck, I once flew on a Delta flight from DXB to ATL that was in the Iranian airspace for close to 90 minutes.
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:25 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

The overfly charges of Iranian Airspace is probably some good cash for the Iranian Government. Since they would already have the Transponder code? They can easily Identify who the flights are for billing purposes.


That would be 150 USD or so.... even in the poorest countries that does not constitute "some good cash" for the government.

Best regards
Thomas


iran overflight fees are more like $1500-2500 for a widebody. not a significant sum, but not exactly $150 either.
 
LJ
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:23 pm

rnav2dlrey wrote:
Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.


the iranians have been nothing but accommodating and hospitable in these exceedingly rare occasions over the years.


That's not the issue. Try getting spare parts into Iran nowadays (not to mention the fact that your passengers will get a hard time entering the US without a visa, as we discussed in the Norwegian thread).

BTW Norwegian can tell you how long that takes to get an engine into Iran.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410665&hilit=Iran+shiraz
 
rnav2dlrey
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:53 pm

LJ wrote:
rnav2dlrey wrote:
Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.


the iranians have been nothing but accommodating and hospitable in these exceedingly rare occasions over the years.


That's not the issue. Try getting spare parts into Iran nowadays (not to mention the fact that your passengers will get a hard time entering the US without a visa, as we discussed in the Norwegian thread).

BTW Norwegian can tell you how long that takes to get an engine into Iran.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1410665&hilit=Iran+shiraz


we’re all aware of the sanctions regime. my reading was that OP was concerned about diplomatic relations and pax safety on the ground, not spare parts.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:05 pm

hohd wrote:
Recently flew UA 48 EWR-BOM, the flight did not touch Iranian airspace nor Pakistan air space. It went through Turkey and then Iraq and then on to the Red Sea. UA 82 flights are the problem now as these flights have to avoid Pakistan airspace so they go north of BOM to reach DEL. Flying through Tibet to reach DEL is probably closer, but China, which controls the air space over Tibet does not allow any flights to go over except in emergencies.

I very much doubt it was the routing you describe. Iraq and Red Sea? Try again...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:13 am

Maybe the Gulf (Persian or Arab, as you like).


GF
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:55 am

Interesting update, looks like the next day's EWR-BOM reverted to the old route over Turkey and Iraq so indeed yesterday's routing must have been an anomaly. Strange
 
blacksoviet
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Re: UA82 and UA48 overfly Iranian airspace

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:54 am

Thunderbolt500 wrote:
I hope they dont have any emergency over iran.

Contrary to what the media may tell you, Iran is not a terrorist state. They may be ruled by a dictator, but he is not going to shoot down a United Airlines widebody the way the United States Navy shot down an Iran Air A300 over Iranian territory killing 66 children.

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