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JBoy
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:06 pm

"may be hard to get away as everything is full".

Must be an airline employee. Even airline employees can purchase tickets.
 
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Revelation
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:17 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Sounds like WN strategy is having all the MAX8 located in one place with a reliable 3ed party vendor it uses for Heavy D checks. They have the capability to streamline resources once a fix is determined for the MAX8.
This will keep it's own MX staff available to keep the NG 700s and NG 800s fixed and flying in a All hands on deck operation to limit the impact on the Daily operations.
Impact to the Daily schedule is down to 2% vs 5% when the MAX8 grounding started.

Good point. WN's priority is keeping the NGs flying rather than tending to the MAXes that aren't allowed to fly.

dampfnudel wrote:
WN sending all of their 737 MAX aircraft to Victorville might signal that the MAX fleet may not even be flying passengers this summer, maybe not even this year. It’s going to be an interesting year for Boeing to say the least.

Or it might signal the most efficient way to get them all flying again is to put them in the same place.

jayunited wrote:
This situation is so fluid today according to Reuters while WN is storing their MAX8s they along with AA and UA sent teams to Boeing's Renton factor to review software upgrades. Also the acting FAA administrator according to Reuters told lawmakers in D.C. they expect Boeing to complete the software updates by March 25th and start the certification and/or approval process although it seems as if everyone is in agreement that no one can say for sure how long that process will take or how long the MAX fleet will be grounded. APA is sending a delegation of safety experts to Renton and I would think if APA is sending a delegation ALPA will be sending a delegation as well seeing they represent more pilots than APA so they can oversee and test Boeing's updates to which again according to Reuters are meant to change how much authority is given to MCAS.

That's a lot of manpower assembled to watch one guy walk around with a USB stick! :-)

PlanesNTrains wrote:
It could be:

1. Move aircraft to VCV as that’s what VCV is good for.
2. Have them in one spot to facilitate a fix.
3. Boeing gets approval for an interim software fix, allowing relatively quick return to service.
4. Aircraft are cycled in to get whatever permanent fix is required, provided it’s done prior to a certain date.

For airlines that want to get their MAX fleet back in the air soon (WN?), it allows them to do so while managing the impact of a permanent fix (if needed) on their day to day operations.

For airlines that refuse to put them back into service with an “interim” software solution, Boeing could arguably deny additional compensation.

We’ll see what ultimately happens, though

Indeed. I wonder how much cheaper it is to park them at VCV rather than PHX and other busy airports.

speedbird52 wrote:
What do you think the fix should be?

None of us know enough about the MAX systems to say what that should be.

Yet I think many of us should remember that aviation accidents involve many holes in the Swiss cheese lining up, and this one is presumably no different. Close a hole or two, make sure everyone understands what the fix is and how to deal with any anomalies, allow the victim's families to grieve, and life will eventually return to normal.

Overall, the time scale should be similar to the 787 battery box fix, maybe even shorter if new hardware such as the enclosure box doesn't need to be developed.

n7371f wrote:
There are frequent tasks that need to be run on every MAX that is parked. The company at Victorville is skilled in caring for temporarily parked aircraft and it frees up Southwest maintenance personal to return to caring for their in-service fleet.

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seatrump
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 1:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Doesn't WN have 737 Classics stored which they can return to service while the MAX situation is resolved?

Who would fly them? The pilots are all now MAX/NG certified. Since the FAA didn't approve a classic/NG/MAX cert, the pilots had to give up the classic cert to fly the MAX. Once given up, it as if it never was...

Lightsaber


This is SO not the case. I still have all the type ratings I have ever been awarded and they will never be taken away from me. Any pilot that has the classic type rating will always have the classic type rating.

However, where this confusion probably comes from is that if you got your 737 type on the NG/Max, this does not cover the classic, so more recent pilots would not be certified on the older planes. Also, pilots who do have the classic type would need to establish currency before being able to fly them again.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:12 pm

Another one just populated this morning, WN8703 is scheduled in from HOU.
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Boof02671
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:36 pm

seatrump wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Doesn't WN have 737 Classics stored which they can return to service while the MAX situation is resolved?

Who would fly them? The pilots are all now MAX/NG certified. Since the FAA didn't approve a classic/NG/MAX cert, the pilots had to give up the classic cert to fly the MAX. Once given up, it as if it never was...

Lightsaber


This is SO not the case. I still have all the type ratings I have ever been awarded and they will never be taken away from me. Any pilot that has the classic type rating will always have the classic type rating.

However, where this confusion probably comes from is that if you got your 737 type on the NG/Max, this does not cover the classic, so more recent pilots would not be certified on the older planes. Also, pilots who do have the classic type would need to establish currency before being able to fly them again.

And WN’s pilots are unionized, they would have to put all open positions up for bid, then the pilots would have to go back and be trained. And you all just think you go to the desert and just bring a plane back, doesn’t work that way.
 
flight152
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:42 pm

seatrump wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Doesn't WN have 737 Classics stored which they can return to service while the MAX situation is resolved?

Who would fly them? The pilots are all now MAX/NG certified. Since the FAA didn't approve a classic/NG/MAX cert, the pilots had to give up the classic cert to fly the MAX. Once given up, it as if it never was...

Lightsaber


This is SO not the case. I still have all the type ratings I have ever been awarded and they will never be taken away from me. Any pilot that has the classic type rating will always have the classic type rating.

However, where this confusion probably comes from is that if you got your 737 type on the NG/Max, this does not cover the classic, so more recent pilots would not be certified on the older planes. Also, pilots who do have the classic type would need to establish currency before being able to fly them again.

Still incorrect. There is no classic type or NG type. There is one type- 737. The issue is that the FAA would only allow two of the generations to be flown at once due to the many differences between generations.
 
reltney
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:00 pm

Most on here missed another good reason for MAXs stored at VCV. It looks bad to have them out in the public eye. Most wont notice 1, 2 or 3 sitting scattered on a ram for extended times, but when a few are huddled in a spot on an airport collecting dust, it looks bad.
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seahawk
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Re: WN will fly all the MAX8 storage in Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why are they accepting aircraft they cannot use?


If the airline refuses to take delivery of the aircraft, it can not (edit) claim compensation for not being able to use them form Boeing.
Last edited by seahawk on Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Interested
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Re: WN will fly all the MAX8 storage in Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why are they accepting aircraft they cannot use?


If the airline refuses to take delivery of the aircraft, it can claim compensation for not being able to use them form Boeing.


Think you mean cant
 
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Veigar
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:04 pm

WN has done something similar before when their 737-700s were brand new, in 2002? - stored them in VCV for a bit. There are pics here.

Image
 
737tanker
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:38 pm

Even after Boeing comes up with a fix for the MAX and the training for it is approved by the FAA it will take a minimum of 75 days to train all of the WN pilots. Per the WN CBA with it's Pilots the Union has 15 days to go over any computer based training to determine suitability and pay (the pay is determined by the length of time required to do this training). Then the Pilots have 60 days to do the computer based training. Therefore if by the end of March Boeing came up with a fix and the FAA approved the training it would be mid June before all of the WN pilots were trained.. So besides having all the WN MAXs in one location to facilitate the changes to the MAXs the length of time needed to complete the training of the Pilots is another reason that WN is sending the aircraft to VCV.
 
namezero111111
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:38 pm

VCV is a great choice.

If it doesn't work out they have scrapping facilities on field :}
 
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Spacepope
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:51 pm

The six flights for today (WN8700-8705) seem to have finished populating. 3 incoming from PHX, 2 from BWI and 1 from HOU, That'll make it 12 total at VCV
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AirFiero
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:51 pm

Siren wrote:
WN positioning the aircraft into VCV is a very smart move - cheap storage is available there, plus good maintenance is available on site for the upgrades/fixes whenever Boeing gets their act together and gets something certified. Keeping the MAXs parked at major airports incurs expensive parking fees - I would be willing to bet that the fuel cost to ferry them to VCV is less than the parking fees incurred so far at some of the airports, so strictly from a financial perspective it makes sense - even if maintenance was not available or easily accessible on site.

Now, the thing to watch out for: are they going to tape them up - with engine covers, covers over the windows, etc? Will they be properly prepared for long term storage - as in the type of storage you see when a plane is expected to be sitting for a year or more... it will be quite telling to see the preparations made. It will be indicative of how long the expected storage time will be... and I'm very much looking forward to the photos of the MAXs like these:



If the MAX's end up prepared like those aircraft, I think we can safely expect that the grounding will end up being measured in quarters.


Wait, how in the hell did they get the damaged aircraft from the east coast to VCV??
 
nra-3b
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:56 pm

Veigar… that picture with the -700s was taken in Mojave. I know because I was working on those A-3sin the top portion of the pic. Same desert, different location....
Bob
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:57 pm

blueflyer wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
All 34 are planned to go to VCV. Only check airman are flying them so that might be the reason why there isn't a mad dash of WN 7M8s into VCV

Interesting. Why only check airmen? Is it a condition of the FAA's authorization or an internal decision?


Probably out of an abundance of caution

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The only reason Boeing is inviting big US customers is to wine and dine them and make them feel like they are part of the process and reassure them. Part of it out of a commercial attitude, part of it to avoid legal issues.
It's just good sense.


Wining and dining will not stop any legal issues later. A fancy meal is a drop in the bucket to what airlines are losing per day.


ckfred wrote:
I remember reading this week that Boeing has some concerns as to where to park 737s, as they come off the line in Renton.


https://www.supplychaindive.com/news/bo ... le/550900/
 
AirFiero
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
That's a lot of manpower assembled to watch one guy walk around with a USB stick! :-)


Union rules? ;)
 
namezero111111
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:00 pm

Interesting. Why only check airmen? Is it a condition of the FAA's authorization or an internal decision?

To make a safe flight even safer :}
 
zuckie13
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:29 pm

reltney wrote:
Most on here missed another good reason for MAXs stored at VCV. It looks bad to have them out in the public eye. Most wont notice 1, 2 or 3 sitting scattered on a ram for extended times, but when a few are huddled in a spot on an airport collecting dust, it looks bad.


I highly doubt this had anything to do with the decision. The airline is not going to spend the money to concentrate them in one palace like this for PR reasons.

As others have said, it's both the "preservative" qualities of that environment, and easy access for maintenance to implement the coming fix.
 
32andBelow
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:24 pm

737tanker wrote:
Even after Boeing comes up with a fix for the MAX and the training for it is approved by the FAA it will take a minimum of 75 days to train all of the WN pilots. Per the WN CBA with it's Pilots the Union has 15 days to go over any computer based training to determine suitability and pay (the pay is determined by the length of time required to do this training). Then the Pilots have 60 days to do the computer based training. Therefore if by the end of March Boeing came up with a fix and the FAA approved the training it would be mid June before all of the WN pilots were trained.. So besides having all the WN MAXs in one location to facilitate the changes to the MAXs the length of time needed to complete the training of the Pilots is another reason that WN is sending the aircraft to VCV.

The union could just agree to an adendium to reduce the time for this one thing. There may be increased pay attached to it tho.
 
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Veigar
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:14 pm

nra-3b wrote:
Veigar… that picture with the -700s was taken in Mojave. I know because I was working on those A-3sin the top portion of the pic. Same desert, different location....
Bob


Apologies, I kind of just assume it was VCV becuase of "obligatory desert storing photo". Either way, they were stored for a while.. I don't remember why they were, but I do remember that they were brand new.
 
737max8
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:26 pm

Siren wrote:
WN positioning the aircraft into VCV is a very smart move - cheap storage is available there, plus good maintenance is available on site for the upgrades/fixes whenever Boeing gets their act together and gets something certified. Keeping the MAXs parked at major airports incurs expensive parking fees - I would be willing to bet that the fuel cost to ferry them to VCV is less than the parking fees incurred so far at some of the airports, so strictly from a financial perspective it makes sense - even if maintenance was not available or easily accessible on site.

Now, the thing to watch out for: are they going to tape them up - with engine covers, covers over the windows, etc? Will they be properly prepared for long term storage - as in the type of storage you see when a plane is expected to be sitting for a year or more... it will be quite telling to see the preparations made. It will be indicative of how long the expected storage time will be... and I'm very much looking forward to the photos of the MAXs like these:



If the MAX's end up prepared like those aircraft, I think we can safely expect that the grounding will end up being measured in quarters.


They were already covered up at WN MX bases last week...so I'd assume they will be in VCV.
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par13del
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:23 pm

So another option, with WN a/c stored at VCV could Boeing also deliver the new a/c there, it would free up space at Boeing allowing full production to continue, have most a/c in one place allowing max resources to effect repairs, and other than us internet savvy folks, who will notice another 2 or 3 a/c added to the mix?
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:25 pm

32andBelow wrote:
737tanker wrote:
Even after Boeing comes up with a fix for the MAX and the training for it is approved by the FAA it will take a minimum of 75 days to train all of the WN pilots. Per the WN CBA with it's Pilots the Union has 15 days to go over any computer based training to determine suitability and pay (the pay is determined by the length of time required to do this training). Then the Pilots have 60 days to do the computer based training. Therefore if by the end of March Boeing came up with a fix and the FAA approved the training it would be mid June before all of the WN pilots were trained.. So besides having all the WN MAXs in one location to facilitate the changes to the MAXs the length of time needed to complete the training of the Pilots is another reason that WN is sending the aircraft to VCV.

The union could just agree to an adendium to reduce the time for this one thing. There may be increased pay attached to it tho.

No the union can’t agree to this without a membership vote.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:26 am

All of them have arrived at VCV.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:29 am

B757capt wrote:
Boeing is not conducting Customer acceptance flights. Therefore no aircraft are leaving Boeing’s hands until this is all sorted out.


I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 737 production process has matured to the point where customer acceptance flights aren't typically needed anymore. Could that then mean deliveries are possible if the flight is waived?
 
INFINITI329
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:43 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:
B757capt wrote:
Boeing is not conducting Customer acceptance flights. Therefore no aircraft are leaving Boeing’s hands until this is all sorted out.


I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 737 production process has matured to the point where customer acceptance flights aren't typically needed anymore. Could that then mean deliveries are possible if the flight is waived?


What airline is accepting a multi-million dollar airplane without a test flight to make sure everything works as contractually obligated?
 
Jshank83
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:49 am

737tanker wrote:
Even after Boeing comes up with a fix for the MAX and the training for it is approved by the FAA it will take a minimum of 75 days to train all of the WN pilots. Per the WN CBA with it's Pilots the Union has 15 days to go over any computer based training to determine suitability and pay (the pay is determined by the length of time required to do this training). Then the Pilots have 60 days to do the computer based training. Therefore if by the end of March Boeing came up with a fix and the FAA approved the training it would be mid June before all of the WN pilots were trained.. So besides having all the WN MAXs in one location to facilitate the changes to the MAXs the length of time needed to complete the training of the Pilots is another reason that WN is sending the aircraft to VCV.


Do they have up to 60 days or it literally would take 60 days? For example, could they all do it in the first week?
 
EMBQA
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:59 am

VS11 wrote:
Doesn't WN have 737 Classics stored which they can return to service while the MAX situation is resolved?

You don’t just snap your fingers and pull them out of storage. It would take a month plus per aircraft to get it operational..plus all of the scheduled maintenance and time controlled items
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hongkongflyer
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:07 am

luv2cattlecall wrote:
B757capt wrote:
Boeing is not conducting Customer acceptance flights. Therefore no aircraft are leaving Boeing’s hands until this is all sorted out.


I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 737 production process has matured to the point where customer acceptance flights aren't typically needed anymore. Could that then mean deliveries are possible if the flight is waived?


yes airlines get some money from Boeing for waving certain test flights (at the later stage of testing)
But I doubt anyone will waive the MAXs' testing at this stage haha

INFINITI329 wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:
B757capt wrote:
Boeing is not conducting Customer acceptance flights. Therefore no aircraft are leaving Boeing’s hands until this is all sorted out.


I vaguely remember reading somewhere that the 737 production process has matured to the point where customer acceptance flights aren't typically needed anymore. Could that then mean deliveries are possible if the flight is waived?


What airline is accepting a multi-million dollar airplane without a test flight to make sure everything works as contractually obligated?


Nothing wrong, Boeing will still conduct certain test flights to make sure the plane is performing well.
 
boeing767300
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:00 am

It's curious though that C-GEKX is at VCV. I wonder what it's doing there. A lot of the fleet has been ferried to YQG for wifi installation.[/quote]

Air Canada C-GEKX fin 527 flew BFI - VCV March 20th using call sign BOE485. Presume because delivery is on hold.
 
wnflyguy
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:26 am

Current top Boeing analysts estimate anywhere from 9mo to a year before The MAX8/9 is expected to be back in the air once the findings and fix is planned.

Long slow road ahead for WN.
Unlike it's competition it doesn't have a Regional partner is can swap fly routes around to cover idle aircraft.

Other than the used 800 market what's WN short term solution for keeping up the growth plan.
Unless Boeing can restart and swap out MAX8 orders for some NG800's if that at all possible.
Or does WN Just stop All growth Until fall 2020.

Flyguy
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777Mech
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:40 am

lavalampluva wrote:
All of them have arrived at VCV.


No they have not. 3 are still in ATL at the north deice pad.
 
Boof02671
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:41 am

EMBQA wrote:
VS11 wrote:
Doesn't WN have 737 Classics stored which they can return to service while the MAX situation is resolved?

You don’t just snap your fingers and pull them out of storage. It would take a month plus per aircraft to get it operational..plus all of the scheduled maintenance and time controlled items

First of all WN probably doesn’t even own or lease the retired planes
Second they are usually stripped of their interiors and major components
Third they are not on the AOC anymore
Fourth they aren’t airworthy and most would need major maintenance and overhaul especially the fuel tank AD and the ADSB mods, doing this work wouldn’t be worth the money.
Fifth no qualified pilots to fly them anymore.

It simply amazes me how posters think you just go out to the desert, fire up the engines (if the plane even has engines) and return it to revenue service.

Not saying you think that way as you’re post clearly shows you don’t.

It’s just getting old how people think you can just bring a plane back after it’s been retired.
 
impilot
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:00 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Current top Boeing analysts estimate anywhere from 9mo to a year before The MAX8/9 is expected to be back in the air once the findings and fix is planned.

Long slow road ahead for WN.
Unlike it's competition it doesn't have a Regional partner is can swap fly routes around to cover idle aircraft.

Other than the used 800 market what's WN short term solution for keeping up the growth plan.
Unless Boeing can restart and swap out MAX8 orders for some NG800's if that at all possible.
Or does WN Just stop All growth Until fall 2020.

Flyguy


I haven’t seen this time estimate anywhere. Not doubting it, just haven’t seen that. Is there a source for it?
 
mwmav8r01
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:00 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Current top Boeing analysts estimate anywhere from 9mo to a year before The MAX8/9 is expected to be back in the air once the findings and fix is planned.

Long slow road ahead for WN.
Unlike it's competition it doesn't have a Regional partner is can swap fly routes around to cover idle aircraft.

Other than the used 800 market what's WN short term solution for keeping up the growth plan.
Unless Boeing can restart and swap out MAX8 orders for some NG800's if that at all possible.
Or does WN Just stop All growth Until fall 2020.

Flyguy


Article I read today completely contradicts this. Said the fix is tentatively approved by the FAA. What other info do you have?
 
Dazed767
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:08 am

MCO has 4 or 5 parked.
 
Bradin
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:40 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Current top Boeing analysts estimate anywhere from 9mo to a year before The MAX8/9 is expected to be back in the air once the findings and fix is planned.

Long slow road ahead for WN.
Unlike it's competition it doesn't have a Regional partner is can swap fly routes around to cover idle aircraft.

Other than the used 800 market what's WN short term solution for keeping up the growth plan.
Unless Boeing can restart and swap out MAX8 orders for some NG800's if that at all possible.
Or does WN Just stop All growth Until fall 2020.

Flyguy


Without Boeing analysts knowing root cause, it could be shorter or longer. I'm leaning at this moment towards "it depends". When cooler heads finally prevail, we will see much of the smoke clear and more clear timelines will be established nationally and globally.
 
flyiguy
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:01 am

Dazed767 wrote:
MCO has 4 or 5 parked.


MCO has 5 parked. 1 leaves Monday for VCV, 2 leave on Tuesday and the remaining 2 on Wednesday.

Fly
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seahawk
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:08 am

It entirely depends on what the fix will be. If it is just software and the FAA approves it, it is a matter of days to bring the fleet back into the air. If it is software + new flight manuals + sim training it takes longer to roll this out. I would guess between 1-3 months. If it is software + new flight manuals + sim training + hardware fix (more AoA sensors, warning lights in cockpit etc.) we are probably looking at 3-9 months.
 
7673mech
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:14 am

DDR wrote:
I'm fairly confident that WN will not be paying a single dime to Boeing until these planes are released and in revenue service. Still not convinced that the MAX will ever be allowed to fly again in certain regions/countries.


Money changes hands to take deliveries.
A little dramatic on them not be allowed to fly in certain regions?

It's not like this is a gremlin where people don't know what caused the problem.

Boeing's negligence caused these problems which can be fixed.
 
Andy33
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:02 am

7673mech wrote:
DDR wrote:
I'm fairly confident that WN will not be paying a single dime to Boeing until these planes are released and in revenue service. Still not convinced that the MAX will ever be allowed to fly again in certain regions/countries.


Money changes hands to take deliveries.
A little dramatic on them not be allowed to fly in certain regions?

It's not like this is a gremlin where people don't know what caused the problem.

Boeing's negligence caused these problems which can be fixed.

Not all that relevant to a thread about WN since the number of different world regions they fly to is limited to say the least. But each sovereign nation has the right to decide which planes can fly in its airspace. Up to now there has been a tendency for the national aviation authorities (or EASA in the case of the EU) to accept plane certifications issued by the FAA as a sort of gold standard, and a reason not to need to conduct their own independent certification process, though they have the right to. But the two MAX crashes blew the FAA's credibility in this area. If the FAA validates Boeing's fix shortly, the rest of the world isn't going to take their word for it, but will insist on conducting their own certification processes. After all, the accident investigators haven't produced their final report on the Lionair accident, or any report at all on the Ethiopian one, so it is by no means clear that the problem Boeing claim to have a fix for is actually the only one that needs fixing, let alone whether it works and doesn't introduce new and different problems instead.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:46 am

mwmav8r01 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Current top Boeing analysts estimate anywhere from 9mo to a year before The MAX8/9 is expected to be back in the air once the findings and fix is planned.

Long slow road ahead for WN.
Unlike it's competition it doesn't have a Regional partner is can swap fly routes around to cover idle aircraft.

Other than the used 800 market what's WN short term solution for keeping up the growth plan.
Unless Boeing can restart and swap out MAX8 orders for some NG800's if that at all possible.
Or does WN Just stop All growth Until fall 2020.

Flyguy


Article I read today completely contradicts this. Said the fix is tentatively approved by the FAA. What other info do you have?


Most of these threads are now 99% speculation rather than fact based. I don’t think anyone here actually knows the timing for having these planes back up. But that won’t stop the speculation
 
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ADent
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:11 am

INFINITI329 wrote:

What airline is accepting a multi-million dollar airplane without a test flight to make sure everything works as contractually obligated?


"Southwest forgoes a traditional acceptance flight in return for a full tank of gas" - Flying August 2004

The plane in that article had two test flights by Boeing.
 
Interested
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:58 am

seahawk wrote:
It entirely depends on what the fix will be. If it is just software and the FAA approves it, it is a matter of days to bring the fleet back into the air. If it is software + new flight manuals + sim training it takes longer to roll this out. I would guess between 1-3 months. If it is software + new flight manuals + sim training + hardware fix (more AoA sensors, warning lights in cockpit etc.) we are probably looking at 3-9 months.


Or if it's looking at whether the plane should ever have been certified safe to fly with these changes it could be years or never?

There has to be an acceptable level of risk with a plane THIS important
 
max999
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:10 am

Andy33 wrote:
7673mech wrote:
DDR wrote:
I'm fairly confident that WN will not be paying a single dime to Boeing until these planes are released and in revenue service. Still not convinced that the MAX will ever be allowed to fly again in certain regions/countries.


Money changes hands to take deliveries.
A little dramatic on them not be allowed to fly in certain regions?

It's not like this is a gremlin where people don't know what caused the problem.

Boeing's negligence caused these problems which can be fixed.

Not all that relevant to a thread about WN since the number of different world regions they fly to is limited to say the least. But each sovereign nation has the right to decide which planes can fly in its airspace. Up to now there has been a tendency for the national aviation authorities (or EASA in the case of the EU) to accept plane certifications issued by the FAA as a sort of gold standard, and a reason not to need to conduct their own independent certification process, though they have the right to. But the two MAX crashes blew the FAA's credibility in this area. If the FAA validates Boeing's fix shortly, the rest of the world isn't going to take their word for it, but will insist on conducting their own certification processes. After all, the accident investigators haven't produced their final report on the Lionair accident, or any report at all on the Ethiopian one, so it is by no means clear that the problem Boeing claim to have a fix for is actually the only one that needs fixing, let alone whether it works and doesn't introduce new and different problems instead.


Boeing has been very quiet about the details of any new training and quiet about non-FAA certifications of the MCAS changes. Both of these things have potential to extend the grounding time.

With regards to FAA's loss of credibility, Transport Canada has already announced they will conduct their own MCAS certification. I'm sure other jurisdictions will want to do the same as Canada.

With all that said, the grounding is likely to extend into the summer, especially for the 737s based outside the US.
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reltney
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:46 am

zuckie13 wrote:
reltney wrote:
Most on here missed another good reason for MAXs stored at VCV. It looks bad to have them out in the public eye. Most wont notice 1, 2 or 3 sitting scattered on a ram for extended times, but when a few are huddled in a spot on an airport collecting dust, it looks bad.


I highly doubt this had anything to do with the decision. The airline is not going to spend the money to concentrate them in one palace like this for PR reasons.

As others have said, it's both the "preservative" qualities of that environment, and easy access for maintenance to implement the coming fix.


Agree, but my narrow body Boeing friend told me the info so I took him on his word. He has usually been right on the money too. Just saw 3 United max jets at IAH yesterday.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

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readytotaxi
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:16 am

I would imagine that Boeing is picking up the storage charge at VCV?
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BravoOne
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:17 am

boeing767300 wrote:
It's curious though that C-GEKX is at VCV. I wonder what it's doing there. A lot of the fleet has been ferried to YQG for wifi installation.


Air Canada C-GEKX fin 527 flew BFI - VCV March 20th using call sign BOE485. Presume because delivery is on hold.[/quote]

Boeing uses VCV for a lot of aircraft painting these days.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: WN putting the MAX8 in storage at Victorville,Ca.

Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:03 am

According to the link posted up-thread, all WN 3M8s are at VCV with the following exceptions:

MDW: 8704, 8706, 8722, 8723, 8727
MCO: 8705, 8708, 8712, 8728, 8733
ATL: 8709, 8718, 8726
PHX: 8720, 8729
LAX: 8707; OAK: 8711; HOU: 8716; DAL: 8724; TPA: 8731; BWI: 8734
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA

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